Open seas handling

Tryin2Fish · 05-11-2002, 06:19 AM

Heres a report, made the run to the chicken ranch with bigtrout/mark and learned something along the way, also have a question.

First, we both learned that one should not unhitch the boat at the newport ramp till the boat is in the water, I was backing down and didn't want to throw the boat out in the marina so applied the brake and that was enough to send the boat off, nearly on the ramp. We got lucky on that one. Here is the second.

The seas were kinda rough, rough enough that it kept the speed down but when we got to the chicken ranch at about 8:30 or so the wind came up big time, it made it alittle tough to bottom fish when you ended up trolling your rig off the bottom. I even used 3 16 oz cannon balls and this happened. We went back to the rockpile and while fishing ended up drifting about 1/2 a mile in 15 minutes or so, it was almost like sailing.

My question is how did everyone else handle the huge drift out there? Thanks for any help, and by the way all we got from our trip was a sun burn and some crabs.

tryin2fish (jim) [img]graemlins/1zhelp.gif[/img]

05-11-2002, 06:53 AM

I never disconect the boat until it is over the water. :depressed:

Pitch Pocket · 05-11-2002, 07:56 AM

My 24' SeaSport is on a roller trailer and weighs about 5,000 lbs. The roller trailer offers no friction compared to a bunk trailer. If I were to back the thing down a ramp unhooked, it would be on the ground quickly.

When I back in to the proper level in the water and try to loosen the strap so I can unhook it, the boat rolls back so easily that I can't get enough slack to let off the clasp. I'd have to let out 15' of strap and would be up to my waist in water disconnecting the boat.

My solution is to back it into the water to the proper level (mine is to where just the tops of the wheel wells are out of the water), start the main motor trim it down just enough to engage the drive (so you don't destroy your u-joints) and put it in forward at idle.

This holds the boat against the trailer so you can unhook it and it won't roll away. Climb in, put it in neutral and the boat gently rolls off the trailer and into the water. I like that method better than launching the boat from a moving trailer by slamming on the brakes, hoping you can catch it before it hits someone.

Same with loading it. Guide it by hand into the trailer, start the motor properly trimmed and put it in forward at idle. The power assist brings it forward to the trailer where you can hook it with ease.

Don't run the motor at more than an idle or you will upset the other ramp users loading and unloading. You aren't trying to drive it on, you are just using the motor as a power assist. You do need to back near enough to the dock so you can climb in and out.

Fishplay · 05-11-2002, 07:01 PM

Hi Tryin
When the drift is fast like that you have to back in to it. It sometimes causes a lot of back splash and you get a little wet but it's the only way to get down.
Greg

Orca · 05-12-2002, 12:00 PM

Run the kicker or main in reverse against the drift. Regulate your speed to get the drift you want. This also allows you to get the stern pointed the right way for your lines.

But, like Fishplay said, you will get a lot of water rolling up and hitting the stern. You will get wet back there from all the splash and spray.

We backtrolled using 2 lb balls both days and stayed on the bottom pretty well. Keep in mind though that you will be going slower than your neighbors, so DO NOT start a drift just below anyone. And, since you are not drifting free with the wind, you will likely take a slightly different drift than those drifting free. Our drift was at some angle to those drifting free. So give good distance left/right of your neighbors also. Today, I would still like to throttle the A..H..E's that ran right above us about 40 ft. drifted across my line, then spooled me while I waited, and waited, and waited for them to get their fish in. They drifted into oblivion (1500 ft of my line) till I finally broke it off and got about 2/3s of it back. Next time, the chumps are coming my way fish and all.

-WARNING- This technique is not recommended for anyone with minimal freeboard or any low outboard transom cutout, or any outboard well that just slopes up into the boat. I have decent freeboard, and the water on occasion rolls right up to the top of the transom. Taking water over the back is entirely possible.

searay · 05-12-2002, 04:30 PM

Best method I have seen to control drift was using a cargo parachute off of the stern. The parachute was probably 8 foot across. This was done on a 26 ft. bartender that comes to a point on the stern. It seemed like alot of lines on the parachute to get tangled but it wasnt a problem. Also used a 10-12ft. section of rope between boat and parachute cords.

Pitch Pocket · 05-12-2002, 04:33 PM

Just curious, but why don't you point the bow into the current and run the kicker in forward backtrolling like we do with the sled or drift boat in the rivers? Running backwards and taking it over the stern seems awkward.

Tryin2Fish · 05-12-2002, 07:23 PM

sjp,

I was wondering that myself, that would sure take the water over the back out of the equation. Sounds safer too. Anyone else have any thoughts on that?

Jim

Mark Mc · 05-12-2002, 09:41 PM

Yes SJP & Jim, bow first is a preferred method when backing upwind will risk too much green water over your stern. The thing is, most folks instinctively want their lines running aft. When it's really howling, you need to go bow first. But there is more risk of fouling lines. Tips on bow-first: (1) Pick the spot you are going to "hover" over, by either use of your GPS, or watching the lines to keep them vertical, or a bouy. Yes a bouy; it's never out of style. One gallon plastic milk jug spray painted orange. Buy the cheep blue line ($2. spool) that we would never put on our reels, 20 lb. Attach a short (5 - 10ft) piece of heavy line to a 2 or 3 lb weight, then to the 20 lb. Drop it WAY upwind of your spot. When it hits bottom let additional scope out and tie off the milk jug. Just fish one rod off each side (not stern). Helmsman keeps the bow on that jug (or numbers). When trying to stay on gps numbers there is a tendancy to "hunt" side to side, whereas with the bouy you can stay straighter. One more thing, whether with a bouy or not, this will also buy you a little more vertical line time: while at enough speed to make trolling speed over the bottom, with the bow into the wind, drop in the two lines while moving upwind. Then you can drop back a little and still have the lines mostly vertical. Be real careful not to allow too much slack while drifting back; don't want it to lay slack on the bottom for obvious reasons.

Some charter boat skippers do this "hovering" thing when it's blowing, especially if it's a twin engine boat.

When it comes down to it, better to have ONE line one the bottom in the zone, than to have 2, 3, or 4 lines surfing back with no chance of a hookup. Next time: anchoring in 100 fathoms. Good luck, Mark Mc

Capt. Rich · 05-12-2002, 10:14 PM

Jim, As you can tell the majority of posters recommend backtrolling when the drift is fast. This can be a problem as most of the time the fast drift is due to the wind as was the case this weekend fishing for butts. Forward trolling into the wind is not recommended. If you do not get the speed exactly right you can wind up running over your lines. This can be a real problem if you are using braided lines. Braided lines can do some serious damage to your drives and being thirty miles out to sea is not a place to practice freediving on a prop. Running a parachute or sea anchor in a fleet of boats is very uncool. It often can not be seen by other boaters and the drift of a boat on a chute is not easily controlled as is a boat that is being manuveoured by a skipper. If a chute were to get tangled with another boats drive it could be very serious resulting in two boats being disabled. Running a chute off the stern in heavy seas is even more foolish. If a sneaker wave were to come with the right period, it could result in the chute holding the boat's stern down to take the full brunt of the wave. This has happened in Alaska with deadly consequences. Nah.. the best bet is to backtroll and wear heavy duty raingear. Good excuse to stop smoking. You can't puff a stoogie when green water is coming at you.

Salmonator · 05-12-2002, 10:18 PM

We went bow into the wind and put two nice fish (46" and 44") in the boat friday. Only used 32oz's but like mentioned above, watch for the guys drifting 72oz with the wind...

Pitch Pocket · 05-13-2002, 06:38 AM

I'm a little confused. When backtrolling plugs or bait and diver (in the Clack for instance), it's bow forward, kicker in forward either holding in the current or backing down slower than the current. Why would the ocean current be different? Seems like you can keep the lines aft and reduce the weight needed and cover the drift more slowly than just free drifting. I'm inexperienced drifing away from tidal currents so I'm not too clear on the whole thing out 30 miles.

Mark Mc:
Do the boats leave this buoy out there or do you pick it up when you leave?

Pilar · 05-13-2002, 08:12 AM

Be careful playing this game, forward or backwards. Backing into it, you get water over the transom. Heading into it you have problems steering the boat. Usually steerage speed is faster than you need to go to slow the drift. If you get just a few points off the wind, it grabs you and you go hard left or right. You can fix that by speeding up but then you slow down because the drift is not working right. Meanwhile back aft, your fishers struggle to keep up with the all of the boat turning and may get into the prop with the tuffline.

As I said elsewhere, very hard fishing in that kind of wind. Maybe best not go there when it blows so hard.

Phil Layer · 05-13-2002, 08:22 AM

Mystic Sea,

Hoboy.

I'm guessing that I am the ah...e chump that crossed your line. If so, I apologize sincerely. Admittedly, all of us on the boat were new to halibut fishing at the Chicken Ranch although most of us are experienced fishermen/fisherwomen. I was not the captain that day but I have relived the day since reading your post and do not know what I would have done differently had I been at the helm. Because of this, I ask for a little more guidance on how we screwed up and will toss in my two cents so that you can correct the error in my ways.

When we arrived at the boat show, we motored around a bit until we found a large vacant spot amongst the boats. We figured out the drift and dropped two lines. Given the depths we were fishing, the serious current and the wind, we decided to only run two lines although there were five of us in the boat. We opted for the free drift although we left the motor running in case we needed to avoid another boat.

When we hooked our fish, I made a quick glance to see if any boats were nearby. There were none that I noticed. The Coast Guard Cutter got really close throughout the entire process and cheered Stoyjun Princess on as she fought the fish. Admittedly, I was not paying close attention to the other line. In previous fishing trips, I had the fortune of having other boats give me plenty of room whenever I got a fish on. But then, I usually would have brought the other rod up when we connected with the fish. The amount of line we had out told me to just concentrate on keeping Stoyjun Princess out of it. Should we have brought the other line up? Is that what others did when they got a fish on or did they stay down?

In your post, you mention that you were drifting at a different angle than those who were free drifting. And, you recommend "...give good distance left/right of your neighbors also." I would think that is especially true if your neighbor has a fish on.

I guess apologies are also necessary for the length of time that it took Stoyjun Princess to get her fish in. God Bless her, I swear she was reeling as fast as she could. The dang fish just would not cooperate with her efforts. I apologize for the fishing time you lost and appreciate your patience.

You named it perfectly when you stated that we "drifted into oblivion." While Stoyjun Princess reeled, we prepared the boat for the entry of the flattie. And, we did not seem to be getting closer to any of the other free drifters out there. The ones who were not free drifting seemed to make way for us.

Finally, I think that this whole thing may be a misunderstanding. I'm thinking it must have been someone else who tangled your line as we did NOT run 40 feet above you and drop lines. Like I said, we shopped for a big open spot before putting our lines out. I hope your issues were with another boat.

If we were the boat you tangled with and you still feel the need to "throttle us a...h...e chumps," that is certainly your choice. I would think a more constructive thing to do would be to post perceived errors in boatmanship and fishing techniques so that this thing could be avoided in the future. Name calling and threats sound a lot like Oregon City fishing and that is why I choose to fish the ocean.

In summary, I hope we weren't the ones who tangled with your line. If we were, we all apologize and look forward to hearing your description of what we should have done differently. I'm not trying to be a smarta.s here...I really want to know what we did wrong, if we did do something wrong. I think if you check my earlier posts, I'm quite conscientious and usually ask for guidance before fishing a new area.

But ideally, you will tell me that the a..ole chumps were not in a red boat with a blonde reeling in a fish.

Capt. Rich · 05-13-2002, 08:45 AM

Backtrolling in a river or on a calm day is a horse of a totally different color. River backtrolling you are going against a known current. Same for calm weather backtrolling. In the Saturday 5/11/02 halibut opener, you are dealing with 15-25 knot wind. Although it blew almost steady from the NW it still can swing around and blow a few degrees off.

The ocean current is affected by the tides. At slack tide it is less or changes direction or may change direction with the tide change. Also as the waves have two components groundswell and wind height, they may break at different directions according to which period is greatest. So backtrolling is the safest although wettest way to deal with the situation. If the skipper sees a wave that is dangerous, they can quickly take action either going to neutral or going forward.

In any case, it is wise to make sure that your bilge pump can get rid if the water. The usual 500 GPH pumps in small boats don't cut it. If I were to go out in that kind of weather I would have at least a 1500 GPH pump with 1 1/4" or bigger bilge hose. Sparkplug wires and seawater do not mix well.

kenai · 05-13-2002, 08:58 AM

As usual, I have to learn these lessons the hard way. At the ranch Sat. We tried running the motor in reverse to get the rigs to the bottom and took on enough water to change that tactic to heading upwind bow first and immediately spooled my reel trying to steer and handle the rod (exactly as Pilar said would happen). There are several experienced hands posting on here, I should learn to listen. I'm workin on it.

Threemuch · 05-13-2002, 09:01 AM

We backed into it with the main engine all day, fishing straight down. We found a good spot with a decent bite a little south of the ranch and we had it mostly to ourselves. My freeboard is HUGE, and we still had green over the transom a couple of times.

We were fishing straight down, and got our four fish in two hours the first day, and about 45 minutes the second. It took us two hours the first day because we went an hour before starting to back into the wind.

The reason you can keep a boat pointed into it in a river, but not the ocean is that in the river you are mostly fighting current. THe boat wants to stay pointed into it. In the ocean, at least Saturday, we were fighting wind. Steer into it if you can, but overcorrect just a little and the boat will spin right around. Small boats want to be stern to, bigger boats beam to. Too hard, leave it beam to and back into it, if you have the transom.

KB

Pitch Pocket · 05-13-2002, 12:07 PM

I see that it wasn't the current so much as the wind. I guess I'll have to haul my butt out there to experience it first hand. Maybe ready this weekend, but not sure.

threemuch:
Stern to is the back, beam to is the side. Bigger boats drift sideways?

Orca · 05-13-2002, 12:36 PM

Moby,

What is your address? Just kidding!

You weren't the offending party. At the time of the incident we were at least 1 mile SW of the USCG 47. And, it sounds like your captain definitely attempts to find an open spot and not jump right in next to someone else. And the boat wasn't red.

I think you worked eveything fine from your description. We leave our other lines down when someone hooks up unless we think one or more of them may be too close to the line doing the fighting.

Getting tangled with you neighbor turns out to be a fact of life out there, but when a boat jumps right in next to me I don't consider it an accident.

Sorry if I sounded a little harsh. You are right about the name calling and insults. It really isn't productive.

Just be aware of your surroundings. Watch who is backtroling and who isn't. Then don't jump into a position where you will overrun another boat, or you will force another boat to overrun yours.

Deepslayer · 05-13-2002, 02:12 PM

Hey mystic, nice to see all you folks from Albany don't really mean to use "harsh words". :grin: :grin: Even if they might be deserved!?

,Ed

Threemuch · 05-13-2002, 02:27 PM

Really big full displacement or semi-displacement hulls tend to drift beam-to. Planing hulls tend to drift stern to. It has to do with how much water you draw, and the shape of the hull in the water.

Most boats put in reverse in a heavy wind will back into it without any steering at all.
KB

seasquid · 05-13-2002, 02:59 PM

I think it's really pretty simple when you are dealing with the conditions we had for the halibut days. There are going to be tangles, especially in a tight drift like off of Garibaldi. There is no use in getting ticked off, these things are going to happen.

Common courtesy and sense for that matter make a big difference. For example, if you are fishing out of Garibaldi, begin your drift on the extreme north end. Don't weave in and out and stop right behind or in front of another boat -- I don't know how many times I have told my crew, "we'll get tangled with them within minutes." Sure enough, bingo! Even if you see a hole in the middle, be very cautious.

This is a unique fishery -- most of us haven't had a lot of experience fishing 500-800' in 15-25 knot winds -- it's difficult.

Another thing you need to think about is that most of us will not be drifting at the same speed as a bigger charter -- consider that when you decide to drop your lines...there is nothing worse than getting tangled up with 15 lines.

Okay, so now you are tangled up with another boat due to a mistake by one or both parties -- now, here is the other thing you have to think about. While you are drifting along trying to get yourselves untangled and lines are hanging somewhere in between two boats -- what about the other people who are down and reversing into the current -- guess what happens next? Those two free drifting get real close to you damn fast -- so, now do I need to reel up and get the heck out of the way or do I chance it that they will get clear?

Most of the time someone has to run the boat, only on those fairly rare glassy conditions can you get away with having everybody fish. Running the boat is a full-time job, especially in last week's conditions.

And last but not least -- know your boat's limitations. If you are backing down and taking swells and wind chop over the stearn -- get the heck out of there! Is a halibut really worth that much? I'm sure the four guys who dumped their boat last weekend out of Garibaldi don't think so -- I felt sorry for them. Guys, I hope the Coast Guard was able to get your boat back. By the way, kudos to the Riptide and Oakland Pilot for lending assistance.

So, there are a lot of issues to take into account. Most of us don't do this for a living, it's a hobby, a very expensive one, but nonetheless a hobby. Be patient with other fisherpeople, but also use some common sense.

Now, let's get that swell forecast down a little so we can all go out and have some safe, rewarding fun.

ss

Phil Layer · 05-14-2002, 07:00 AM

Mystic,

I'm glad it wasn't me.