discouraging sight yesterday

rock bottom · 02-16-2004, 08:06 AM

Too many people still pulling diver and bait at the coast.

PLEASE STOP for the sake of the wild fish.

Chris Nordling · 02-16-2004, 03:49 PM

I hear ya, I noticed the same thing last week as well. I was hoping the divers might have been attached to the "ol pink worm", but alas, many had shrimp rigs behind them. :depressed:

Drift fishing bait= OK
Side drifting/boondogging/bait draggin= OK
Diver and Shrimp or eggs= NOT OK !!!!!

Plugs= Priceless :grin:

Chris

RichH · 02-16-2004, 04:16 PM

I was noticing the same thing yesterday. You'd think the fact the fish have the hooks swallowed to the toenails would have an impact with some folks but........

ZaQ · 02-16-2004, 04:24 PM

We saw some guys doing it with all 3 rods today. Our buddies said they saw them land a BIG native on one, haul it in the boat, pick it up by the gills and than drop it head first back into the bottom of the boat. All this while guzzling beer in their camo drift boat. Sweet.....idiots.

SKP · 02-16-2004, 04:25 PM

Rock Bottom,

This is my dumb question for the week. I have never used diver and bait, why would you not want to use this particular method, but still fish other methods? Do they swallow too deep or something, that's my guess?

But then why would drifting or boondogging bait be ok, what's the difference?

SKP

B-run · 02-16-2004, 04:30 PM

Backtrolling diver and bait the fish approach the rig from below and inhale it VS drift fishing etc, where, hopefully one would produce the ultimate corner of the mouth hook set.

Chris Nordling · 02-16-2004, 04:30 PM

You nailed it SKP, they usually swallow the bait before the rod is removed from the holder.

When dragging or drifting bait, fish are usually(like over 90% of the time) hooked in the corner of the mouth, making a release a cinch.

Hope this helps,

Chris

spinner53 · 02-16-2004, 05:10 PM

So a Diver and a Pink worm are acceptable with Nates in the river ????

ANDYCOHO · 02-16-2004, 05:12 PM

I used to love to use Diver and Bait when we used to have early winter Hatchery fish. But with Hatchery returns coinciding with the Natives, I have swithed to Plugs.

I can honestly say I have had a much better success with the Plugs. I may break out the Diver and Bait for some Springers, but I don't know if I will ever use Diver and Bait again for Steelies...

RichH · 02-16-2004, 05:39 PM

The way they eat a diver/pink worm is totally different. They're out to kill that worm, its just like a vicious plug bite!!

02-16-2004, 05:59 PM

Marty Peterson has one of the best philosophies about D&B use. When he hooks his first native of the season he puts the D&B away for the winter. I think he told me he usually quits using them after the first of January either way.

Fishin Magician · 02-16-2004, 06:09 PM

Dave .......the ladybug died today .......

Slingshot · 02-16-2004, 07:02 PM

ZaQ's story was right . I witnessed them guys in the camo boat take pictures of the native and then the fish flop in the boat and then THROW the fish back. They didnt like my friendly comments.

dampainter · 02-16-2004, 08:16 PM

hmmmm...I understand the way some see it here, and shoot what do I know... I barely know what fish look like..... but is this legal???
kinda comparable to jigging, which to me is legal snagging, unethical? perhaps, but it is legal.

rock bottom · 02-16-2004, 09:17 PM

Dampainter, although legal it is kind of an unwritten rule that when the nates start showin to hang it up. There are so many other producing techniques that work I just dont understand why people keep doing it. I asked a guy yesterday how many natives he had killed using a diver and bait as his buddy was thumping a hatchery fish and I got a pretty rude look But I dont care if you cant take the heat hang up the diver or get off the river. Not trying to stir things up just pretty passionate about keeping a good thing around for a while.

dampainter · 02-17-2004, 04:36 AM

rock, I understand, but your fight is not with someone who is doing something LEGAL those concerns should be made also to the people who are making the laws. that is the only way it will change ....for most.

RichH · 02-17-2004, 05:45 AM

dampainter,

you raise an interesting question in my mind, legal vs ethical. To me it seems better to police ourselves as to whats right than to have a governing entity step in and tell us what is right.

In Oregon, if there are no bait regs in place for a body of water that includes soft plastics. I'm sure you've read how effective those can be and perhaps you have personal experience. In my opinion they are nowhere near as effective as bait but the state lumps them together.

I am absolutely opposed to diver and bait fishing when you can't retain the fish you in all likelyhood will kill using that method. I am in favor of allowing bait when its used responsibly.

dampainter · 02-17-2004, 06:42 AM

I am not on that level....yet....if legal, I`ll do it, have I? not yet. Jiggged? very very little ( a couple hours at most) I am sorry and do not mean to offend any, but I side with the law....for now, so if something is legal I`ll do it till otherwise. write to your lawmakers, if they can impose such things at other places, they should be able to impose a no bait restriction at a certain time frame for this place.

ZaQ · 02-17-2004, 07:00 AM

Dampainter, I assume you mean gigged rather than jigged?

rock bottom · 02-17-2004, 07:10 AM

Dampainter

First off no offense taken here just a topic I felt needed some attention. Second I dont think a bait ban is in order just a ban on a certain technique that uses bait. It is also your choice how you choose to fish as you are right it is not against the law to pull diver and bait but I tell you what there are people out there that would have gone a lot farther than I did buy making a comment to that guy sunday so be ready for the stuff to hit the fan if you make that choice. Oh by the way I would put money on it that we were the top boat numbers wise on the river sunday and not one fish came on bait of any kind.

just something to think about. (not trying to boast just trying to make a point that there are other very effective ways to catch that precious steel).

RB

willierower · 02-17-2004, 08:49 AM

I too have observed many people using divers and bait in streams that have nothing but wild steelhead. Ive gotten into heated arguments whith friends over this subject [img]graemlins/icon_argue.gif[/img] You will not see a diver and bait rig in my boat until April when the Summers are in and the winters are done.

I feel divers and bait is for people who dont have a clue. Thats why guides use them, so thier clients can catch fish.

I do use the pink worm behind a diver alot in the winter. I have in the past, out fished the guys using bait. Sometimes the pink worm is more effective. I have never had a Steelhead to a worm deep, its usaully hooked right in the corner of the mouth. Almost every steelhead Ive caught on diver and bait has swalloweed the bait real deep.

Keep the dvers and bait home until the wild fish are gone! If I see them on the rivers I will say something to the people about it!

rob allen · 02-17-2004, 09:02 AM

I tried fishing bair divers a few times and really enjoyed it and caught some hatchery steelhead doing it.. However something I found is that native sea run cutthroat also love shrimp abd are vrey suceptible to hooking mortality with the method or any bait method for that matter.. Just something to think about, wild stelhead aren't the only species to be concerned about. And remember if you happen to catch 5 sea runs on bait in a day you are legally done fishing even if you release them as all trout caught on bait are added to your daily limit even if you release them... at least here in Washington..

Salmon Stryker · 02-17-2004, 09:22 AM

Zaq-Slingshot
I was planning on painting my driftboat camo this summer so I can use it to float for ducks next winter. Now I'm afraid to after the publicity this diver and bait boy is getting. :depressed:

I've used diver and bait during December and don't even bother anymore. Sidedrifting eggs has been so much more productive for me and running plugs is a close second. I'm just going to concentrate on perfecting those two methods until RichH proves to me that a bobber and jig can be as effective. :grin: My point is that Diver and bait are uneccesary. There are bettre ways to catch chrome IMO.

chappy · 02-17-2004, 09:39 AM

I feel this is a very valuable thread...As a rookie at steelhead, I was totally unaware of this approach regarding the diver and bait..In fact I was planning on giving it a shot this weekend! Without reading this I wouldn't have known. My points are 1) Thanks for the tip and its great to have a resource to find this stuff out...and 2) There may be others out there like me so take it easy on the initial 'instruction/education' (if you don't know if they should know better).

Fishin Magician · 02-17-2004, 10:34 AM

As most of you know I have, This isnt my first Rodeo.......

Believe it or not I was using diver and bait up until 5 years ago even thru wild fish time of year. It was such an effective way to get a fish to bite. I was enlightened one day by a guy on the river who explained how the effectivness of the technique was also the major reason for its detriment to the fish to be released. Rob Allen brings up a great point about the Cutthroats that inhale a shrimp. we often forget about the little guys...... Those fish that are hooked in the throat,gills etc are 90% of the time going to suffer permanant damage. An example is we caught a hatchery hen on sunday that had a hook in her throat she was still bleeding from her gill. She was doomed to die. It makes me sick to think if that were a 15lb wild hen .........ouch. I get pretty fired up when I see this type of fishing practiced still used by people this time of year. In retrospect I would say that from now on I am going to try and educate people on the river about best practices and hopefully this will help educate and deter this technique. If they cop an attitude about it well then they were just born with a few less chromosones and they will be in for a long day.

John

willametteriveroutlaw · 02-17-2004, 10:39 AM

I peronsally witnessed the morons on the ******* river yesterday.. Some people have no clue whatsoever. Those guys needed to be taken out behind the shed and beaten with a garden hose.

RichH · 02-17-2004, 12:46 PM

Coot22,

I agree. Think Coyote spoons.

DJFISHS2XS · 02-17-2004, 01:16 PM

Heres the thing I see about trying bait bans etc..the more you change things the more you well loose in the end. In washington a fishermen didnt like the way SOME people treated fish that by law would have to be released. So he wrote a proposal to end the removel of any wild steelhead that is hooked from the water. the law that resulted is no fish that would have to by law be released not be removed from the water...Guides make a living by taking clients to places to catch large throphy fish and take a photograph of it, crippled people that like to fish are affected, imagine that your favorite plug has just been inhaled by a large, lets say wild steelhead now how other then cutting the line are you going to retreave it to allow the fish loose.
one loop hole in the law is to net the fish but keep it in the water to remove the hooks. I think more harm is done with nets removing scales and slime well be done. so people who like taking pics of there catch and gently releasing the fish are affected just because a small number of people that are uneducated on handling releasing fish might hurt a few. I for one am not happy with the new law, and it seams that all the people that are all have pic icons (avatars I think they are called) of huge fish that they have caught. And when you try to reason with the people who like the law they make comments like "who are you trying to be a hero for" or "why do you want bragging pics" they attack the person not the logic...I like pics to send to my dear parents who never let me go with out fishing supplies when I was a kid. they thought I stayed out of trouble if I fished..good logic as far as Im concerned.
I say spend your time trying to educated people and save the hate for things like gillnets that kill all spices of fish because you might not like what you asked for in the end. I agree that if there is a unwritten rule for yourself not to pull divers/bait its a good thing every fish saved is a bonus, but be carefull when you want to see people not use what you consider a legle lure just at special times, because the next step is outlaw the practice for all seasons.
and if you think about it you have already seen new laws that though are ment to help make things worse....in the mortal words of a great fishermen friend of mine..."there are just no gentlemen fishermen left". I say take a newbie fishing train him with ethics just like someone did for you. the more "gentlemen fishermen" out there well clean up the uglie ethics and besides nature/karma well take care off the trailor trash that lack ethics.

Sublime · 02-17-2004, 01:30 PM

Was above the guide shop, drift fishing yesterday and noticed the guy and his son above us doing the same thing...although, somehow, they were back-bouncing diver/bait from the bank down into a hole [img]graemlins/berry.gif[/img]
grrrr, wasn't too thrilled about that one.

Next, I walked downriver a little ways and saw a bright chrome hen laying belly-up in the water along the edge. I saw it's gills BARELY opening and closing. I turned it over and tried to revive it for at least 15 minutes, but no luck.

FishinMagician~ I wonder if that was the same fish. It had a red Gami with 12 inches of line was stuck down in its throat with a bit of bait still on the hook. [img]graemlins/berry.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/berry.gif[/img]

As you can tell, it made me ill!

Isn't this a good enough reason not to use diver/bait?

Or are you diver/bait users not confident enough to catch them with lures. [img]graemlins/eek13.gif[/img] Next time, challenge yourselves

[ 02-17-2004, 02:33 PM: Message edited by: Sublime ]

Salmon Stryker · 02-17-2004, 01:37 PM

Well said DJFISH, RichH and others. I don't think we need a law at this point we just need to educate others of the harm D&B rigs can do to native fish.

Ty · 02-17-2004, 04:11 PM

I think u guys should have a bait ban on the coastal rivers without supplemental programs...

The best thing about artificial only regualtions is they make the fishiing far better in my opinion. It may require more skill and better technique at times to catch the fish, but less fish are caught, making it better fishing for those who are more experienced fisherman.

I don't think those who pull divers and bait should be singled out since there is nothin illegal about it. I have personally hooked plenty of fish deeply with drift gear. [img]graemlins/1zhelp.gif[/img]

RichH · 02-17-2004, 04:31 PM

Ty,

I disagree about the bait ban. Talk to the folks that fish the upper Rogue from Elk Creek to Gold Rey after November 1st thru December 31st about that one. Used to be that bait was acceptable in that stretch but the fly guys screamed because the bait guys were catching too many fish. Of course, it was stated that the mortatality was too high so we need to shut down the bait fishing. Most people on the Rogue side drift and very rarely do you hook one deep so I find that logic flawed. That stretch of the Rogue has been flies only from September 1st thru October 31st for year.

Another one that was on the block was the Salmon river up by Zig Zag. The fly guys wanted that one for themselves too. It was primarily a hatchery run of steelhead yet they wanted to impose bait/gear restrictions in order to make a private fishing hole.

I'm not trying to bash flyfishermen, I happen to know several and even like a couple.

Its just a couple of examples that stick in my narrow little mind. Again, I think if people fish ethically we can police ourselves rather than regulate ourselves into restrictive fisheries. Bait can be fished effectively and safely if people just learn how. And yes, I'm willing to teach them.

surebite77 · 02-17-2004, 08:58 PM

Plugs catch bigger fish anyways, wild or hatchery.
It sure seems I catch many more bruisers on the pluggies, and alot of 6 pounders on divers.

GOT2FISH · 02-17-2004, 09:33 PM

When I started fishing here I discovered how effective a diver and bait could be. After being on this site I have learned alot and the diver and bait issue was one of them. How ever I once agian must make a comment about educating folks on whats right and wrong. If someone sees me doing something wrong I take it in a positive way then recherch it and change if I feel they were right. How ever taking me to the wood shed would not be the right approach! Lets try to educate fellow fishermen and if they dont change at least we can say we tried our best.

Surething · 02-17-2004, 10:23 PM

this looks like one of those things that is hard to make everybody happy. this is a good one last winter we were fishing using divers and bait and had the chance to meet a fishermen on the river that told us that we must not be real fishermen if we have to fish that way he told us in not such a nice way to have a good day as he drifted on by. at the take out later he was sure to yell a few more things to let us know how he loved us. this is when it gets good this same person who was running his mouth made it to the big time when he was caught shooting an elk from his truck. and I was very happy to see this person on tv in one of his best moments. I chould go on about this but what good will it do. it just goes to show you that we are not all as good as we think we are. soon enough the the fish and wildlife dept. will work this out for us anyway.

B-run · 02-17-2004, 10:26 PM

I agree with DJXfish etc forgot the rest.
Teach a fisherman.
Wow we're going deeper than a diver bait taken fish.
I wonder if a pink and white jig would work out on the south jetty?
(sorry, this has just gotten too deep).
Fish responsibly, and teach those that don't know how to, to do so. A bobber and jig, or a "lil" pinkie will fetch a big fat nate as good as anything, with a safer hook set.

eyeFISH · 02-17-2004, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Coot22:
I agree that steelhead have a tendency to take diver and bait deep, but we cant say "no" to diver and bait during the winter and then, come June, July and August, pull out the herring rods and head out to the big blue. We cant say one thing here on ifish and then deny it by choking the natives out in the ocean with herring...just my two cents...

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Just say NO to diver/bait in the rivers...
and just say YES to circle hooks for fishing herring in the salt.

Circles save wild salmon from being gut/gill-hooked, especially while mooching.

[ 02-18-2004, 12:00 AM: Message edited by: eyeFISH ]

GOT2FISH · 02-17-2004, 11:10 PM

Has any one tried the circle hooks? I was woundering how they would be if drifted with bobber and bait.

Coot22 · 02-17-2004, 11:45 PM

I am not trying to touch a nerve here because I agree that diver bait in most cases does have a higher probability for fish mortality. However, with a lot of the logic I have read...it would seem that herring should not be used in the ocean. All of those feeder chinook and coho are doing just that...feeding. I have encountered many instances out in the ocean where a salmon inhales the whole herring so deep that you have to cut the hooks. It may be just me personally, but I have hooked many more natives than hatchery coho out in the ocean. I agree that steelhead have a tendency to take diver and bait deep, but we cant say "no" to diver and bait during the winter and then, come June, July and August, pull out the herring rods and head out to the big blue. We cant say one thing here on ifish and then deny it by choking the natives out in the ocean with herring...just my two cents...