Angler Ethics ?

[Gone Fishin]

This is probably going to open a can of worms, but here we go:

I really don't understand why guides (especially guides!) would anchor on a hole in the river that is known to hold lots and lots of fish and proceed to try and spend a day in one spot and see how many fish they can hook.

As for myself, I could care less about fishing that hole but, I do know that there are plenty of others on the water that would like a crack at some of those fish. Why not get your limit and get out? Then let someone else have a shot, is it an ego thing?

I feel that there are so many "biters" generally in a particular stretch of river, and if you get two or three boats that hook big numbers of fish just to play catch-and-release, how are others on that stretch of river going to fare?

As I went down the river yesterday, I asked another guide how he was doing, his reply was "we each tagged one, now were just releasing." I said, "what are you doing sore-mouthing all the fish?" His response, "we're putting them back so someone else can catch them". Now, what kind of statement is that??? Who's going to catch them?
You think they're going to bite?

I'd rather get my fish and get out and give someone else an opportunity. I/we had a great day yesterday, but I don't need to hook as many fish as physically possible to make a great day for me or my crew.

Is that truly what you would like if you were my client? Would you want me to go to a hole sit there all day catching fish after fish, or, would you prefer to run the whole river get your limit and be gone, then let the other folks on the river have some.

What do you think?

I mean no offense to anyone by my above post.

-Marty

[CATCH AND EAT]

Marty, I have to agree and disagree with you at the same time. One, if in fact he had first water and hooked up I suppose that is the persons right. However, my own practice is like yours, I may make 2 to four passes over the water in a sled (I do not own a drifter) and then move on. A guide does have the responsibility to get his client into fish. That is what they get paide to do right. Most people are not there to just float down the river, they want something to take home with them. Either that or they want to learn the river and you are the teacher. Guide, Teacher...School them in the ways of the river and they will show you the respect of the river. Do unto others.....

Second, clogging a known hole for hours at a time is disrespectful of other fishers. Spend time there, no problem but move on so others can have a chance. There is the whole river to see. Your right Marty, a can of worms it is.

[Seefood Man]

Ya know! I never could understand that. When I was boat-less, I promised myself that I would always give other fisherman enough room, and SHARE the river when I had my own boat. Also, knowing that the bank anglers were limited to only certain access points, and those in boats had the entire river. Many-a-time I had been on the bank and had boats run over or boondoggle through the hole I was at. My question to them was “You have the entire river, why in the hell do you have to come through here?” They all acted like they didn’t hear a word. Well to sum it up....Ethics is taught at an early age, and now-a-days it’s a serious lacking attribute of some fisherman. Even back then I would still wave with all of my fingers, despite my feelings.

[Wet_Willy]

I think it is complete BS to tie up a hole in that manner when steelhead fishing! That is why they call it a drift boat. This is precisely one of the reasons salmon fishing is such a pain in the ***. Boats put in at dark thirty and anchor in the holes all day long. It isn't bass fishing where you can C&R a bunch of fish and somebody could come in there right after you and hook the same fish. Now, generally I can find fishy water throughout a drift and locking up a single spot or two isn't going to mess up the day, but get enough people doing that and voila, spoiled run. Then it becomes a race to get there earlier or do a run later in the day. Some rivers are like that. My favorite drifts are long ones that require you to cover a lot of water, it limits the impact that this has on you.

It is all about being courteous in the end. Some guys are and some aren't. Some just don't know, but a guide knows better. That one was blowing hot air about putting the fish back for others to catch. He was giving his clients a lasting memory at the cost of the other folks doing the drift behind him. Obviously he sleeps fine at night.

I think you have shown that as fair as ethical guides, you are pretty much on the top of the heap Marty (i.e. putting away your bait divers during the 2nd week of December).

There's my 150 cents .
WW :smile: :smile:

[Bait O' Eggs]

Interesting topic Marty, I can see the group splitting on this one.

If I was paying for a guide it is because I wanted to learn something, I would feel ripped off if the guide filled the limit early and dropped me off and went home. I would want all the hours on the water as a day that caught no fish. I paid for a day, not a limit, is the way I would be looking at it.

I would also want to catch as many fish as possible. That sounds a bit self centered, but my fishing days are numbered (getting to be a smaller number all the time ) and I go fishing to enjoy nature and all that other good stuff, but catching fish is also a high priority.

You describe a two sided sword. Others should get a crack at the really good holes, but who ever got their a$$ out of bed first have the hole until they decide they are done with it.


Now to try and answer your question(s)
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Is that truly what you would like if you were my client? Would you want me to go to a hole sit there all day catching fish after fish, or, would you prefer to run the whole river get your limit and be gone, then let the other folks on the river have some. <hr></blockquote>

I would not want to sit in one spot all day. When I am fishing, I get bored quite quickly with sitting in one hole after a couple hours. Sitting on anchor in one spot gets old after a while even if you are catching fish. I enjoy moving around and fishing different water, which is what makes a driftboat such a wonderful tool. You can fish dozens of holes in one day, without walking yourself to death.

I would want to catch fish after fish as we ran the entire river, and letting fish go doesnt bother me too much

As far as getting a limit and leaving so other people catch fish. Most of us are selfish and want to maximize our fishing day. Other fisherman are on their own. I hope they can catch a fish, but if I sore mouthed a fish and somebody else couldnt catch it for a couple days, well thats the way it goes.

I will take big number days everyday, and fish as long as the hall pass is good for (predetermined by wife)

[Gone Fishin]

I guess all I'm really trying to say is, death to all inferior alsea-strain hatchery steelhead! (That's why we put them in there)

Catch-and-Release all Natives!

[smoky]

Good topic Marty. I was right above that guy. Did not really bother me because there were fish on that whole stretch and room for more boats.

We put three on the boat, released the last one, then went to a Chinook whole and ended up with a 28#chrome hen!

There was a guy on the bank across from that guide that hooked at least 15 fish before he left.

Some people dont get to fish as much as others. Its not really a religion to them. Not as many people respect the "sport" like you. We all should.

Good seeing you again.

[cureless]

Again Marty your a class act!!!

Catch and keep one fish each, Then catch and release as many as you can as you float on down the river keeping the second in the last hole right before you take out.

No one should have a problem with that.

Lets face it and look at a actual situation. I have talked to several people about this very topic and its no surprise its just not talked about.

case in point: Wilson river drifting Mills to Sollie

First couple of drifters put in at O-dark-Thirty row with eyes closed down to the hatchery hole and anchor up (HOGLINE) and sit on the fish all day. If you happen to be a guide you don't do your profession positive. (HOGLINE ON THE WILSON, THATS FOR OREGON CITY NOT THE WILSON)

If any other boat comes along the feeling is clear that there is no more room I got here first and the river is mine.

I have no argument with that and would agree that it is your right, IT's JUST NOT COOL.

My real beef is with the location of the release point for those fish.

1) It limits and shortens the river with active fish in it.
2) Bank access is limited (even though Im a boater)

I understand they want to keep the upper river clear of those hatchery fish but where does the upper river start? Why not have more than one relese point and move some fish up to at least the next boat ramp (Siskey)?

I have yet to float the wilson once this year partly I don't like what it's become.

I know there is more than one side to a story but I hope some of my views are seen as reasonable
by others.

[Phish_on]

Get real! If I was in a hole where I was catching fish, I would not leave until I was no longer catching fish.

NOTE - this does not happen to me.

:depressed:

[Wet_Willy]

I went back and re-read my earlier reply to this and figured I better be honest with myself. Who am I to say it was BS. I have an anchor on my drift boat and I use it occasionally. I try to be courteous to others but I doubt I'd pick up and leave if I was catching fish (if I'm being honest). After reading some of the other posts I looked at mine and said, "I don't think this is really accurate". I feel better...

WW

[cureless]

Just a post note I have never actually fished the location I refered to in above post because I dont like to sit very long and I enjoy moving, rowing, so I usually float on past and give a friendly smile and a good luck. lots of good water to drift. Only on real slow days have I seen where that hole was the only producer.

I wonder what the breaking point would be for getting there first to hold the hole? four in the morning, spending the night in the boat?

[Gone Fishin]

Wow! Thanks to all that responded here. I would like to state that I really, truly do not care if I fish that particular hole on the Wilson. And I don't care if people anchor in a hole, I do. I choose to pull plugs because it's my style, it's not because my clients can't drift-fish. I love to drift-fish as do many of my customers. I choose to get a limit of hatchery fish and be done. I may be back tomorrow to fish for the fish that are still there.

[Joe Schwab]

Marty, You are right on the mark as usual. I used to fish with some of the old time guides on the Clackamas. They would never even think of tying up a hole. Fish it thoroughly and get out. They all seemed to respect each other and realize others were there to fish too. Yes people it is important to catch fish whether guiding or not, but 10 -15 fish out of one hole? Come on. Running up the score is very important to some. I'd hate to see Steve Spurrier of Miami take up steelheading. 'Know what I mean?

[Snagly]

Bait O Eggs summed up my views with his post. When I hire a guide I'm looking for:

1. Places that hold fish (specific and general)
2. Techniques that take fish
3. Catching fish

Anchored on one hole the whole day only addresses point #3. I want to see a whole bunch of spots, and take a fish (or get bit) in a few.

I also want to start early and finish late. I don't use a guide often, and I hate the "Oh, we've had a great day already so let's get off the water at 4:00/ 5:00/ 6:00." My view is "Let's get off the water when the fishing is truly dead and we run out of places to fish, or it's too dark to see a glow-in-the-dark Corkie with a flashlight."

Of course, I realize that the poor SOB on the oars has a family, another client the next day, and certain routine that keeps him sane and employed during the peak season. And by starting early and finishing late I've put this same fellow out of his rhythm. That's when the wallet comes out and the big tip comes in. A day-and-a-quarter's-work deserves a big tip.

As for those guides who anchor in a single hole and fish it all day, well, not if I'm the client.

[RichH]

It is an interesting dilemma you pose here due to the variety of factors that into each persons definition of a successful day. I learned to fish for steelhead on the Rogue using a technique called rolling shot. Its basically side drifting bait using flyrods loaded with monofilament, some split shot for weight and small baits of eggs. You then drift with the bait through the likely slots.

By definition you are constantly on the move therefore everyone gets a shot at the good water. You also make some very long drifts as you tend to get one or two shots at a slot unless you're packing a motor since rowing back up can wear out your arms pretty quick.

That said, I now have a tendency to want to see a bunch of river when I fish. I find it incredibly difficult to sit in one spot and fling bait or whatever for more than 30 minutes at a whack. For that reason alone I tend to fish alot of plugs simply so I can be on the move most of the time. My favorite technique to catch a steelhead is still drift fishing, I just don't have that much patience for doing it.

However, if I get into a hole thats loaded with fish I like to catch as many as I can. I really don't like to kill many as my family really doesn't eat much fish so those that I do kill tend to go to friends that will use it. That tends to make me a guy that likes to sore lip 'em.

As far as going with a guide I like to go to learn new water, techniques, and catch fish. I won't pay to catch hatchery fish. I like to go when its less crowded and far more enjoyable. I would never agree to dumping the boat in at 2am as I've heard has been happening to get a spot to camp out all day. Just not interested.

[JPSFISHY]

This post was really cool. Thanks Marty. I relate this to a walleye day I had 2 years ago up by Biggs. We had a run and gun day. Finally had some fish move up on a shelf and got a bunch. At the same time, a very well know guide had his folks anchored and jigging "all" day on the same spot. They did wind up catching almost as many fish as we did, but you should a seen the looks on their faces as we were having fun working different spots and moving. I can't sit for long. OK to land a fish. OK to have lunch. OK to take pictures. Anchoring in a coastal river just forces competiton to a new level. It'll never stop, and will probablly get worse as time goes on. Open forums such as IFISH, allow us to communicate/learn from each other, and we can all help the next person to learn respect. It's not a givin. It's learned. Maybe I'm just gettin old. I for one accept the responsibility- as best I can.

[RichH]

I'll tell ya one that puts my nads in a bind. It's when you're chinook fishing and every time you come to a hole some dipweed is anchored in the top end of it back bouncing down through it. This is a prime example of a time to be trading laps just like the guys in jetboats do on the rivers they can fish. Why should one boat get to fish each hole?

[Spooled]

Hi Marty. Just some thoughts on this subject, not directed at you or any other person on the river Monday.

I was on the Wilson Monday with a guide, David Johnson. We caught a lot of fish, and could of had our limit within 1 hour.

I didn't as a client get up at 3:00 A.M., drive through snow from Portland, fish in pouring rain, just to leave in an hour with my limit. I went to fish a full day with a guide, not to "get a limit".

David asked us to be at the take out at 6:00 AM, we were and he was. He rowed us down the river in the dark and anchored us until fishable light. We were the first boat to this water, and hooked a lot of fish. We stayed where the fish were and enjoyed every minute.

I would have been upset, if we left that spot to let another boat, guide or privateer, who was less dedicated to what it took to get that spot, have a chance, because we already had fish.

We did as clients what it took to have the kind of day we did, and David Johnson did what it took as a guide to deliver it. I have no regrets about it whatsoever.

I am not suggesting we were the boat in question, but other guides came down later and fished the exact same way. Your boat was pulling diver and bait while the boats above including us were drift fishing. I respect that you have a service to provide, but if your clients are less skilled at certain techniques, others shouldn't be penalized. Obviously, not all clients can drift fish and I think in this case it would prove to be a big dis-advantage. It has nothing to do with the skill of the guide.

I am sure being a fishing guide is a very competitive business, as are many business ventures. There are some that are going to do things for clients that others may not. Those that provide what the client wants, as long as it is legal, will usually do better than those that don't. In our case Monday, "The early bird got the worm" :smile:

[Gus Orviston]

I can kind of see your point, however, given what I saw of the Wilson the last few days, is there really only one definite hole on the lower stretch, really?. From what I saw the fish were everywhere, we caught many moving through, and it appeared everybody else was too. Fish were being hooked at a equal rate several hundred yards up and down the river. Given lower water conditions, and less total fishing area I think you have a stronger arguement.

Is it that you wanted to pull plugs in a special place because your client(s) can't drift fish? If so I don't see lowering the catch rate for others on the river to meet the lowest common denominator. (just trying to understand context)

And if so, should you ask around to allow those who haven't caught many fish in their lives to take the hole next... because it is all relative. Who holds the stop watch, and who sets the time and fish count. There will always be somebody who doesn't get their fair share. I have been fishless for years, but I never wanted to be given a chance I didn't earn.

If the definition of drift boat was to keep moving then you can take that comment to the next level, and leave the anchors at home. Again another relative statement made as fact.

[ 12-12-2001: Message edited by: Gus Orviston ]</p>

[fishpatrol]

I think you can carry this thought even further. Why do guides yell, become belligerent, and generally obnoxious to private boaters?

Not all guides are this way, how can the ones that are stay in business?

I have seen many instances of crappy behavior from someone I would think may want to leave a positive image for his current clients and prospective ones. Fortunately I have not been the target of this kind of crap. I take proactive measures to avoid it. I try to fish areas that are less crowded, take the wife and kids( great camo) or fish with my three NFL buddies. I do have one other strategy.

Be courteous, you never know who is on the river.

[Bubzilla]

The idea that anyone is somehow obliged to tag-out is utter nonsense. Fact is that fish released will bite again. Maybe not five minutes later, and maybe not even that day, but they will bite again.

Hogging a hole is another topic entirely. But there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING wrong with a guide getting a client into more than two fish. And, I for one would never go on another trip with any guide who felt otherwise.

[Salmonator]

As much as I hate to admit it, I believe if you get there first the hole is yours until you row out. Think about this: you drift or plug through a hole and come around from the bottom to do it again when another boat gets to the top first. Ok, so you let them through and then take your next pass and two more boats come down the river that want to fish the hole. Where does it stop? If 7 boats want to take turns through the hole how much fishing are you going to get done waiting for all of them? It will only take one anchor dropped by a boat that doesn't know the unwritten rules to ruin it for everyone. It's kind of a gamble. Get there first, you have dibs on the hole. If the number of fish in the hole wasn't as high as you expected, you might have already let a dozen boats go by you to fish more productive water. What if somebody has the top of the hole tied up? Move to the tailout and start drift fishing. If they're plugging, drift fish behind them or drop your plugs in behind them. If they try rowing back upstream over your plugs or drift gear, thats when I call BS. Anchor and tie the hole up if you want but don't vertically move up and downstream to cut people off that have dropped in behind you (this has happened to me before with guides running high power electrics).
There are too many people out there to expect everyone to be on the same ethics page. Best bet is to go catch fish somewhere else.

[ 12-13-2001: Message edited by: Salmonator ]

[ 12-13-2001: Message edited by: Salmonator ]</p>

[JPSFISHY]

Great post. Respect can sure be hard thing to come by sometimes huh? A person has 3-6k in a drift boat/ 1-3k in clothing and gear, got up at eyelid:30 to be there at eyelid:30, and buy GOD you wanna get your money's worth. I've got caught up in it myself. It gives me a belly ache sometimes. I try my heart out to give way, discuss,teach,learn, and have fun. It's a full time deal- for life. Two weeks ago, I hade a guy approach me in Fred Meyers Grocery. He remembered that he pulled in front of me during springer season on the Clack. and anchored. Totally cut me off with lines out. Had no idea at the time. I had my people real in, I slid buy and held, and discussed river courtesy and respect. No temper, no shouting. Simply discussing. He and his friend looked at me like I was fresh off the Enterprise Star Ship. His son at 10, who was in the boat helped his dad to understand what he did, and they both learned from the experience, as I have now. The ONLY reason the man remembered me is because I kept my cool, and was respectfull, and had a positive impact on his son. I sure wanted to blow and jump up and down. I didn't remember that untill this post. The fishing trip was March 3,2001. Our seeing each other again in Freddies was Nov.27. A long time. How cool is that. Normal- probabably not. Possible- everyday with a little effort.
"The River" An old book with a new story every day.

[Spooled]

Fishpatrol, I dis-agree with guides being beligerent and rude. I have drifted by many guides including, Dave Johnson, Jimmy's Guide Service, Terry Mulkey, Marty Peterson, the Tomans etc. They have always been polite and not fished water I was fishing at the time. I think guides go out of the way to wait until I left or went above me and fished behind me.

I have a different opinion on the original subject, but I understand why Marty posted this thread. On Monday he did exactly the right thing, given the circumstances. He fished his own water, his way. I respect that 100%. He didn't agree with how others were fishing a particular spot, but used proper etiquette instead of causing a problem.

When we fished this spot Monday, there was a privateer that displayed the worst etiquette I think I have seen. Tangled lines, wrong side of the river, you name it. Not one guide said a thing to them. If I would have been in my boat, I am not sure I would have been as cool headed.

We fished the same river yesterday, and had a boat (privateer) pull plugs through water we were drift fishing. We asked the to take them up, but they ignored us. Every time I have had a problem with another boat it has been a privateer not a guide.

[rags]

I only have one question: are you really a guide if you can only catch fish out of one hole on the river? I fished with some excellent guides mostly on the Olympic Peninsula and I have never seen one set in a hole all day. When we do hit a hole where lots of fish are holding we will catch our share and move on leaving the hole for others. I am more impressed with the guide that can show me several good holes on the river where fish are holding. As a long time DBer its fun to learn those not so obvious spots and catch a fish.

[MasterCaster]

just my .02 If a person decides to sit in one spot and fish all day then its ok by me. As long as there is room for others to get by and they arent killing the fish then I have no problem with it. In fact I have had pretty good luck fishing from the bank around some holes that this happens in. When they keep hooking fish and releasing them it seems to stir the fish up some and I just fish a little ways down river from them and do pretty well catching fish.

As far as "soremouthing" the fish. Well I have caught and released fish only to end up catching the same fish all over again a few minutes later. I have even broken off fish and caught them a little later in the day with my hook still in their mouths.

again this is just my .02 and no disrespect meant for anyone. :smile: :grin: :smile:

[Spooled]

Rags, in our case we asked to stay in the spot we were in. On the way to the take out, David Johnson showed me other productive spots on the river. I fished these spots yesterday in my boat, as there were about 15 boats (one with Jennie) in the spot being mentioned. We landed 4 fish in spots away from the crowded hole. I didn't see any of those 15 boats racing me down the river away from the crowded hole. I don't blame them. Why leave fish to find fish?

[ 12-13-2001: Message edited by: Spooled ]</p>

[Snapshot]

Great messages from all of you. I feel the guides are there because of their reputation and ability to meet the demands of their customer. If they do not provide the service expected, they will not have a job later. While we are out for pleasure, they are working to keep that job, the same way I am when I go into the office. Working for a living stinks. Therefore, I will do what is required of me to keep the job and that is what most of the guides do.
As for a soremouth. *Twice, I have hooked a steelhead that takes someone elses bait before I could land them. I had it happen once on a chinook and once on a halibut too. When we landed those fish, they did in fact have my hook and another persons bait and hook in the mouth. I don't think they have a brain large enough to remember anything for very long. Somethimes we need to be the same way. Our time on the water is limited and to short to get all worked up over the little things. Let's focus on things we can improve on and set the example for others. Wouldn't it be nice?

:smile: :smile:

[FishinMission]

Well...I'm not a "guide"...but I suppose if I was, and if I was in that situation...I'd leave it up to my clients as to what they wanted to do.

Perhaps they wanted to catch fish all day (Who wouldn't??)

Perhaps they may have wanted to see and fish other water. (Doesn't sound like it)

I think all in all...it's a guides job to get his client(s) into fish. After that happens...I think it would be up to the clients as to make the call if they'd like to move on or not.

I hate to say it..but first one there gets the spot. If you know it's a producer...you're gonna go there. Unfortunatley it leads to what I call "The driftboat drags"...where everybody heads over good water to get to "that" spot before anyone else.

It sounds as though in this instance there were fish to be had just about everywhere, so it shouldn't be a big deal.

I haven't fished the Wilson in quite some time, but I know the pressure has really come on with the driftboats. One other thing you have to consider with this is.....suppose you move on...are you gonna be able to fish that next spot?? Or will it be taken by a bunch of other people. Kinda like fishing the Kilchis for fall chinook when it's the only river on the coast running green.

Goes both ways...I guess. I suppose if you really want that spot...you can get up earlier.

[Tilla]

We drifted down the Wilson for the first time Wed. in the month of Dec. We did well before and after the boats, literally hooked up within 50 yds of the first boat anchored and 100 yds of the last boat. But, we didn't want to join that crowd. We watched the upper corner for a while to see how to get through the crowd and made the attempt, we stayed behind but another boats fish on put us to the other side where we stayed close to the brush. Just enough rowing to keep the boat straight, but I think the lines were out of the water. When you first time encounter that line of boats you may make errors though. It is intimidating. I will always go find my own hole if I can. We caught fish not drift fishing!

[Gone Fishin]

Thank you, thank you, thank you to all that have responded. It looks like I'll just keep on moving down the river, and the boats that anchor will continue to do so. I'm not going to change anyone's opinion or the way they fish, nor are they going to change mine. That's the great thing about it...We're free to choose and I choose to not fish that way! Guess I'll go and tune some plugs...