5 Point or Better Elk, 4 Point or Better Deer

[bigjake_888]

I want to know who is in favor of 5 point or better Elk and 4 point or better Deer statewide in oregon on all draw bull and buck hunts. I am.

[baltz526]

it is a bad idea, due to the genetics. shoot only 4point bucks, you end up with lots of scraggly antler deer. some areas of oregon and idaho still show the results of having a 4 point limit on deer.

[Santiam338]

Bad idea...A healthy herd is a diverse herd...Way to much pressure on the older animals with everybody after them...They tried it in the Steens and it didn't work...Baltz is right...

[whtelk]

Very bad idea...look at what happened in the Steens when this was 4 point or better, I remember those days.

[Mossyhorn]

Bad idea, you get a lot of people that shoot 3 point bucks or 4 point bulls and leave them because they're illegal. Some people don't check before they shoot.

[traks44]

To play the devils advocate here....


Do any of you have absolutly any scientific information or published work thats proves that 4 point rule is what caused problems on the steens? Things such as drought, predators, increased recreation use and other factors as well as habitat struggles would be what I would contribute low deer numbers that pretty much all of eastern Oregon saw 4-5 years back or whenever it was. One of my professors used to work on mule deer/fawn habitat on the steens before he taught and it always comes back to poor recruitment either by habitat struggles(drought?) or predators. I personally will not buy into that the 4 point rule is what did everything in.

I would vote for a 3 point rule which I would think would be a little easier to get along with than a 4 point. I am not saying either way what would be best but for every action there will be a re-action. Look at what spike hunting has done to some elk units? or what some people think.....

Just my $.02

[sliverpicker]

One of the biggest problems with a point rule is alot of smaller bucks/bulls get shot because a hunter thought he could count X number of points in the heat of the moment. Not wanting to get pinched, they just walk away.

I know guys that hunted in point restriction units in the past and have found dead animals that didn't meet the "point criteria". An awful waste, but a fact none the less!

[baltz526]

if you shoot all the symetrical 4points in a herd every year, you end up with the lesser bucks breeding all the does, which makes less 4 points to hunt. in several years of this harvest you have a herd with 500 forkys and 3 points and very few 4points. deer numbers may not drop, just huntable bucks are few. you'll hunt and see 20 3points to every legal buck

[baltz526]

in some areas the 3 points are still the dominant type buck you will see.

[lor]

Originally Posted by bigjake_888

I want to know who is in favor of 5 point or better Elk and 4 point or better Deer statewide in oregon on all draw bull and buck hunts. I am.

Sounds like a personal goal to me for your definition of a trophy animal. Thats great and I hope it gives you fulfillment. But there are alot of hunters who would be satisfied with a younger animal for whatever reason and they are probably the majority of the people who purchase tags.

Bad ideal given a shrinking pool of hunters already to arbitrarily propose limits like this.

[mtn300]

3 point or better for deer, elk 4 point or better

[Joe]

No thanks, 4 point elk are the tastiest in my opinion. I always dream about killing the big one and I'm excited when I do but to be honest I'm glad I don't every year since I love elk steaks and sometimes bigger is not better. 4 or 5 points are the best of both worlds! Way more meat than a spike but still very tender.....

Traks, The evidence to me would be the fact that some deer never reach 4 point status. If you protect huge forks and 3 points they will be passing along less than desirable antler genetics. This is really true with blacktails but I think it is enough of a concern with Mule deer to rule it out as a benefit. This is not evidence I guess, just my opinion.....

As for providing escapement I think the best method is to limit access on roads. The majority of hunters are lazy as an old dog or scared of the bushes it seems. Just give the critters a place to hide and they will do just fine.

[Mossyhorn]

Originally Posted by mtn300

3 point or better for deer, elk 4 point or better

As stated twice already, this is a bad management tool because too many hunters will shoot forked horns thinking they're 3 points and leave them to rot once they find they aren't a 3 point. How many hunters sit and look at the buck they're about to shoot to see if they have enough points? How many hunters have that much time? How often do you have a split second to make a shot? Many hunters won't change their ways, they will shoot first and check later.

There is sufficient evidence of this being a bad way of management in the state of Utah. Ask them what happened.

[Eagleclaw]

just shot all does and cows and leave the poor bucks and bulls alone..

[NeverGuess]

I agree that it makes accidental violators out of honest hunters. Even if you look hard it can be tough.

[Limbhanger]

I have to agree with the masses on the antler restrictions for deer with the current herds we have.
What would be really nice to see is higher buck to doe ratios, then you would have more bucks making it through hunting season which leads to more bucks reaching maturity. An overall healthier herd where mature bucks compete and do the majority of the breeding.

Some of the ranches have done a great job of managing their deer herds and have a healthy age class diversity and high buck to doe ratios. Both for Whitetail and Mule Deer. It just isnt feesable for an opportunity state like Oregon.

[bigjake_888]

The high road:

I have watched a couple hunting shows with privatly managed herds where they only shoot the mature bucks and bulls to manage their herd. Seems like a pretty reasonable accross the board definition of a mature animal is the size of their horns. Just makes sense to me to give the young ones a year or two to "get it" before they are legal game if you want to increase the herd.

Why does snake river hunt 3 point or better? Why do all the old guys say that the elk and the deer will never be how they used to be? Do you think there will be any less 4 points than there are now if we allow the young animals to mature? What else can we do to bring the mature animals back?

It is possible there are guys that think there are more deer than there ever were. Or maybe there are guys that think there is not a problem with the amount of mature animals in the woods. Maybe there are guys that think the spike hunts are good to "increse the trophy bull ratio." OR Cow hunts to increase the bull ratio.

I do not think it is wrong to want to increase the amount of mature animals in the woods regardless of what your personal ambitions are.

The low road:

Thinking that all the spike deer and deformed animals are going to breed when three and four points are around is foolish. When was the last time the wimpy geek got the girl in high school. Thinking that there will be less three and four points if you don't shoot the young ones is short sided. The small ones will grow up if you let them. If you are meat hunting put in for a cow tag. They issue spike hunts to sell more tags.

[Joe]

Originally Posted by bigjake_888

Thinking that all the spike deer and deformed animals are going to breed when three and four points are around is foolish. When was the last time the wimpy geek got the girl in high school. Thinking that there will be less three and four points if you don't shoot the young ones is short sided. The small ones will grow up if you let them. If you are meat hunting put in for a cow tag. They issue spike hunts to sell more tags.

Nobody claimed that the spikes would be doing the breeding. The fact is if you protect bucks that never reach 4 point status then a larger percentage of the mature bucks still around at breeding time will be large forks and 3 points.

[DTSportsman]

Beyond all the reasons stated above, if they changed the point restrictions to these i'd never kill another animal , first legal fills the freezer!

[pythonwill]

In my area the blacktails that are 4 pt or better are far and few between. I have been hunting them since 1978 and have only got 3 that were 4 pt or better. That would pretty much wipe out my hunting if they did that.
The hunting shows that have those restrictions are mainly just ranches and its not a state wide regulation. Bucks can wander in from anywhere and change the mix. and they are also whitetails and there are billions of them to begin with. We all know Oregon doesn't have those kind of deer populations

[huntercgr]

I'm wondering what is the reasoning behind the question?

[Santiam338]

Originally Posted by bigjake_888

The high road:

I have watched a couple hunting shows with privatly managed herds where they only shoot the mature bucks and bulls to manage their herd. Seems like a pretty reasonable accross the board definition of a mature animal is the size of their horns. Just makes sense to me to give the young ones a year or two to "get it" before they are legal game if you want to increase the herd.

Why does snake river hunt 3 point or better? Why do all the old guys say that the elk and the deer will never be how they used to be? Do you think there will be any less 4 points than there are now if we allow the young animals to mature? What else can we do to bring the mature animals back?

It is possible there are guys that think there are more deer than there ever were. Or maybe there are guys that think there is not a problem with the amount of mature animals in the woods. Maybe there are guys that think the spike hunts are good to "increse the trophy bull ratio." OR Cow hunts to increase the bull ratio.

I do not think it is wrong to want to increase the amount of mature animals in the woods regardless of what your personal ambitions are.

The low road:

Thinking that all the spike deer and deformed animals are going to breed when three and four points are around is foolish. When was the last time the wimpy geek got the girl in high school. Thinking that there will be less three and four points if you don't shoot the young ones is short sided. The small ones will grow up if you let them. If you are meat hunting put in for a cow tag. They issue spike hunts to sell more tags.

Private managed herds are just that, private managed for a low number of high paying hunters...I am pretty darn sure that is NOT what we want...

I am not going to search for research,but game departments all over the country have long since realized that a healthy herd has a certain % of does/yearlings/fawns/spikes/forks and so on...You pick on a certain age group and the percentages gets out of whack...This results in poor herd balance and is detrimental to the over all health of the herd...

The 4 point or better that was in the Steens years ago pretty much screwed things...There are always a certain percenatge of bucks that never get more than 3 points...You have all seen them...The 30 inch 3 point or even monster forks...Year after year this percenatge of big threes increased by leaps and bounds...They were doing more and more of the breeding passing on their genes...The 4 points were being singled out throwing the herd and the herd genes out of balance....

I for one do not want to see our herds managed like a Texas game ranch and have some moron telling me to shoot the "management buck"...

For the most part,our game department does a good job,but to many times they have their hands tied behind their back by politics,which is a HUGE problem...

i would be happy if they made it to where you hade to shoot a fork over east rather than any visibal antler for deer. dont know how much it would help the population but it would give them one chance to help reproduce. I like the 3point or better for elk IMO

[Santiam338]

I never could figure out why visable antler on the east side and fork or better here on the west..

I am the other way around...I think spikes should be legal over here same as the east side...Most are the same age as forks anyway,and I would find fewer spike skulls laying around while shed hunting...Seems to be a lot of them...It would also take some pressure off the older bucks...

[sturgeonkid]

Horrible idea!! What will all the road hunters shoot?? Just kidding, but really bad idea.

[Rank Amateur]

I like the fork or better idea for deer, it makes you slow down a little to make sure. There are a lot of Does shot because of the light colored hair on the inside of their ears that look like spikes.

The 3pt or better rule has worked fine here on the coast. 3pt. is a natural break in the usual antler configuration. I have only seen one forked horn with an eye guard, its hanging on the shop wall but it has quite of bit of spread since the shot broke the skull.

When we first went to 3pt, we had a few outlaws trying to take advantage, but they thinned out. Statistically, there are more cows popped in spike hunts than spikes in 3pt. hunts. We can't afford to loose any more cows.

[mtn300]

Lets hear some input from washington hunters who are under the 3 point rule. Maybe every third year make it an any buck tag.

[bigd]

How about just hunting for meat in the freezer,,, and good camp fire stories, The animal numbers will never return to what they used to be,, what ever those were,, and niether will diesel prices,,,,

[KingSlew]

Not for it!

[loper]

Originally Posted by mtn300

Lets hear some input from washington hunters who are under the 3 point rule. Maybe every third year make it an any buck tag.

Not quite sure what type of input you're looking for; perceived opportunity?

The area I hunt in SE Washington has been 3-pt minimum since at least 1996

[huffmad]

i will vote for 3 pt or better for deer and brow tine or better for elk. Come on guys this has nothing to do with genetics it comes down to oppurtinity. let the young bucks grow up. after the first year all of you 1st buck I see dies hunters can shoot lots of dumb three points.

[baltz526]

just what we need, a reason for fewer hunters to buy tags.

[saltchucker]

It seems that the focus on buck/bull restrictions skates over the issue of the ratio of bulls/bucks to cows/does. Last I checked stats the ratios in a number of units on the eastside were under management objectives and the management objective was 12-14 (25:1 is a rare high number for hunted populations). Lots of populations have low ratios which can result in late breeding/poorer fawns in the fall etc. There are of course an abundance of other drags on these populations. The sad fact is herds are down AND the ratio of boys is too low. The game ranches or intensively managed herds on private land in texas etc often require that you harvest a doe or spike before a management buck...Too much hunting pressure for the populations .....I think we spend way too much time targeting mature bucks/bulls to begin with.

WR

[ScottyG]

I've watched 3 point or better rules change a deer herd. I'm not against it completely, as I do like to see the small forkies and spikes get a chance to mature, but I also can say first hand that we now have a herd that is filling up with some absolute monster forked horns in the area that I late bowhunt in WA state. This last year our group took two forked horns (with eyeguards, making them legal) that were 24" wide and heavy. Honestly, they are pretty cool trophies in their own right, but they'll never make the record books if that is goal. We saw a number of others that didn't have eyeguards or just didn't provide a bow shot. Over the last 5 years, we've witnessed a growing population of these big forked horns. There is no doubt in my mind that it is the result of survival of deer with this genetic antler configuration. There are still some big 4x4's out there, but not as common as they were in the first 5 years after the rule change to 3 point or better. It used to be that a big frame meant a 3x or 4x, but that's not the case in our area any longer. If big 4x4's is your goal, I think the right answer is to reduce the harvest. Shifting the harvest to older bucks might work for a few years, but eventually its going to have a negative effect on the genetics of your heard.

[ehunter]

The other thing normally the majority of the deer taken are the 2 year olds which allow the older bucks to breed. The same thing with elk but then again I think they had studies out last year that in some herds that the spikes were doing allot of breeding which is not good either. And as pointed out it was bear cat on the deer because there were so many deer getting shot and left because it is hard for some hunters to tell the difference between a 3 point and a 4 point buck. By allowing the younger deer to become fair game it leaves more older bucks and bulls to mature.
I never understood the western Oregon rule of black tail forks vs. spikes most spikes over here are genetic runts most black tails will fork their first year unless they are born very late.

Allow spikes only for 16 years and younger or over 60 I could live with that.

[llama77]

I have a heavy 28 inch fork from the steens. One of many that I saw in the years after (and still see) the 12 years of 4 point rule. Lots of big 2x3s etc...

The 4 point rule was a great experiment that just didnt work. No need to try it again.

[Imperial Bull]

Bad idea for reasons previously stated, but I would however like to see more units go to three point or better for elk to help with recruitment. I would also like to see less cow tags in some units (i.e. Scappoose), but that is a whole different issue.

[BrianMaguire]

Originally Posted by llama77

I have a heavy 28 inch fork from the steens. One of many that I saw in the years after (and still see) the 12 years of 4 point rule. Lots of big 2x3s etc...

The 4 point rule was a great experiment that just didnt work. No need to try it again.

You are right, I see some gigantic forks in the Steens, I never thought it may have been the 4 pt rule. We use to find way oo many 3x3 skulls to be winter kill as well. Shoot and then count victims.

[namu mac]

Originally Posted by lonedrake

i would be happy if they made it to where you hade to shoot a fork over east rather than any visibal antler for deer. dont know how much it would help the population but it would give them one chance to help reproduce. I like the 3point or better for elk IMO

Deer used to be that way but there were too many accidental kills left to feed the yotes. Why waste them?

[OR_Bo_Huntr]

Bad idea, I do like 3pt or better on one side for muley though
To dang many spikes and forks get whacked

[jmike]

How abot switching it up ...hunt 3 years 3 point or better then a couple years fork or spike only.....Personaly I would be ok no hunting in some units for a year or , would that bring back the numbers...?....mike

[BigFishFever]

OK...so a former WA. Hunters opinion..

I grew up hunting in the Yakima area...both deer and elk. When I first started deer hunting it was any buck..visible antlers, elk was any legal bull.

Then in/around '95/'96 it changed to a spike only elk season, and 3 pt minimum on deer in the units I hunted. Branch antlered bulls by draw only.

First couple of years elk hunting was tough, still saw quite a few spike's coming out of the hills, and in the post season (winter) was still seeing quite a few spikes at the feeding stations above Naches...fast forward a couple of years, and it was extremely tough to find a spike...branch antlered bulls were running rampant. Several people I know that were lucky enough to draw tags were passing by branch antlered bulls that were close to/just off the road, just for the main fact that they wanted to HUNT, not shoot, and they still were not hard stressed for getting there animals.

Deer however, never seemed to recover...now this one I am not sure if it was an environmental (hard winters) or just a poor management style, but there were fewer deer coming out of the hills, and bucks of even spike/2pt seemed to diminish.

I am no biologist, never have pretended to be one, but the elk herds in that area seem to be thriving under the spike only regs (and evidently the spikes are making it past that first year to get to the bigger status, as the herd seems to keep growing) but the deer population seems to be dwindling....thankfully I moved to Idaho, which has ample deer and elk...literally right in my front yard!!

[fisher22]

I myself would like to see Eastern OR, go back to atleast fork horn or better on bucks. Just my oppinion. Give the spikes a chance to prove themselves.

[mount'em]

Originally Posted by fisher22

I myself would like to see Eastern OR, go back to atleast fork horn or better on bucks. Just my oppinion. Give the spikes a chance to prove themselves.

I agree with having at least a forky min.

I also like venison and agree with being able to fill the freezer... but the size of a spike is so much smaller than an older buck. maybe it makes sense for the meat hunters too.

[BW]

Bigjake888, Those privately managed heards also have management hunts to cull the lesser bulls and bucks out. You don't see those hunts on TV very often.

[fishnhuntnfool]

I'm not for 5pt for elk or 4 pt for deer, I say just quit shooting spikes and make it statewide fork or better in both elk and deer. Easier to spot, less accidental doe shootings, and maybe it will keep the wolves and cats off the large game (go after the weaker spikes).

[bigjake_888]

Sounds like the right answer may be somewhere inbetween the high and the low.