I have a question about horses

[bassettmama]

Hello: I had a horse die last night. He was healthy, if a little thin, he was an arab and winters are hard to keep weight on. He had a good appetite, he was eating when I went to work at about 6am. My husband fed him again when he went to work at around noon. My kids gave him some more "hay" which was straw, which I told them NOT to feed the horses(he didn't eat any of this though). I corrected the hay situation and noticed that he didn't come when called, so I looked for him and found him under a tree at the bottom of the pasture, he was down.

By the time I changed clothes from work to gunky pasture, he was on his feet. I stayed with him, trying to force feed water, sugar water, pedialite, and walk him, like the vet said to do. He was lathargic and walking VERY slow, not limping, his lips were slack, and he wasn't swallowing. He died less than six hours later, midnight.

My question is, seeing as it didn't seem to be colic(he wasn't kicking or seeming in pain, or rolling), what could it have been and what if anything could I do to prevent it from happening to my other healthy horse? Could it have been poisoning? We noticed that the neighbor put out gopher killer, could that have done it?

Thank you in advance for any suggestions. I just want to keep my other horse safe if I can.

[bulldog]

Originally Posted by bassettmama

Hello: I had a horse die last night. He was healthy, if a little thin, he was an arab and winters are hard to keep weight on. He had a good appetite, he was eating when I went to work at about 6am. My husband fed him again when he went to work at around noon. My kids gave him some more "hay" which was straw, which I told them NOT to feed the horses(he didn't eat any of this though). I corrected the hay situation and noticed that he didn't come when called, so I looked for him and found him under a tree at the bottom of the pasture, he was down.

By the time I changed clothes from work to gunky pasture, he was on his feet. I stayed with him, trying to force feed water, sugar water, pedialite, and walk him, like the vet said to do. He was lathargic and walking VERY slow, not limping, his lips were slack, and he wasn't swallowing. He died less than six hours later, midnight.

My question is, seeing as it didn't seem to be colic(he wasn't kicking or seeming in pain, or rolling), what could it have been and what if anything could I do to prevent it from happening to my other healthy horse? Could it have been poisoning? We noticed that the neighbor put out gopher killer, could that have done it?

Thank you in advance for any suggestions. I just want to keep my other horse safe if I can.

He could have twisted a gut, did you have a vet come and check him? sorry to hear about your loss.

[bassettmama]

No the vets in our area were closed and wouldn't come out. The only one that would have was out delivering calves. Now it is too late. Do horse that twist a gut just seem lathargic, or do they seem in pain? We've never had one go down so fast before.

[TheTexan]

Sounds like colic to me. For such big, strong animals they are pretty delicate. I had several quarter horses and had one get colic, when I had someone else feed. The person had mixed the sweet feed incorrectly and I assumed that this was what caused it. I stayed up all night walking the horse and pouring mineral oil down it's throat.

Sorry about loosing your horse.

[7pointbull]

Did you check the eyes and gums for any signs of cloudiness or pale gums? If he was poisoned one or both would be apparent. Some horses Colic quiet and if he was stressed from the winter or in decline at all he could go down fast from a number of issues but colic seems the most likely.

Sorry to hear about it. I stayed up with a horse all night a few years ago walking him until the vet could get there. If they go down things can go bad fast.

[bassettmama]

Originally Posted by 7pointbull

Did you check the eyes and gums for any signs of cloudiness or pale gums? If he was poisoned one or both would be apparent. Some horses Colic quiet and if he was stressed from the winter or in decline at all he could go down fast from a number of issues but colic seems the most likely.

Sorry to hear about it. I stayed up with a horse all night a few years ago walking him until the vet could get there. If they go down things can go bad fast.

His gums were very pale, but his eyes were clear, that was why I was walking him and trying to force down fluids, thinking he either was poisoned or was colicing, I just wasn't fast enough I guess. I noticed him within 15 minutes of getting home and had him moving within 30 min. Thanks for all your help, I just will be moving my other horse to our other pasture, just to make sure he doesn't get into anything he's not suppose to if that was it. We'll also be watching the feed.

[Cornbread]

Originally Posted by TheTexan

Sounds like colic to me. For such big, strong animals they are pretty delicate.

Same here. My brother had a horse that died from this. he went shopping for a few hours and the horse colic-ed while he was gone and by the time he got back a few hours later the horse was to far gone to save so he put him down. Colic is what my first guess was before I read TheTexan's post.

Very sorry to hear your horse died.

[Duckwheat]

Poison would be stretch. Gopher poison has to build up in a rodent sized animal to kill it. It would take A LOT to kill a horse.

We lost two horses as a kid. They were gut issues both times. That is the most likely cause as others have already said.

Sorry about the horse, I never got very attached to the horses like I did with my Dogs. But I remember my dad crying over Withrow.

DW

[bassettmama]

Thank you Duckwheat, I'm starting to believe it was colic as well, I have only had horses for three years and keep learning different things about them. I didn't realize that colic could kill within hours, I always thought it was like days. To lose him in just a few hours was very surprising to me. I'm learning that maybe horses are just not for me. I think our family has decided that when our other horse is not so wintery looking(shaggy) that we will sell him. We haven't really decided, but he will be very lonely without a pasture mate, seems sad.

I agree with you, the dogs are much better.

[Go_Getter]

It really doesn't sound like colic to me. Colic is very painful and it would have been very difficult to keep him on his feet as well as he would have been in a ringer sweat. I lost a horse to a twisted gut and he was in big pain. It's hard to tell but it could have been poison. how old was the horse? sounds more like maybe founder to me. That can kill them from shock. Did he show much discomfort? was he kicking at his gut or trying to roll? Those are all signs of colic. It would be really hard to tell unless you had an autopsy done.

Really sorry to hear of your loss, I know the feeling all to well.

[bassettmama]

No, he didn't seem to be in any discomfort at all. He wasn't sweating or kicking or trying to roll around.He was just drooling and not swallowing, and lathargic. It was very hard to get him to walk, but it was just slow not really like pain. It was really confusing to me, I always thought that colicing horses were in pain, and he didn't seem to be. He was only about 4 and a half. Fairly light weight, slim but not really skinny, just Arab winter thin, we had just wormed him about two weeks ago, because he was looking kind of thin. He had put on a little bit of weight, but it is soooo hard to get them to hold weight.

It IS looking more like MAYBE it was colic, his belly got all bloated up, so maybe it is colic. Thank you for the info though, I just want it so that I can keep my other horse safe.

Originally Posted by Go_Getter

It really doesn't sound like colic to me. Colic is very painful and it would have been very difficult to keep him on his feet as well as he would have been in a ringer sweat. I lost a horse to a twisted gut and he was in big pain. It's hard to tell but it could have been poison. how old was the horse? sounds more like maybe founder to me. That can kill them from shock. Did he show much discomfort? was he kicking at his gut or trying to roll? Those are all signs of colic. It would be really hard to tell unless you had an autopsy done.

Really sorry to hear of your loss, I know the feeling all to well.

[Go_Getter]

I have been around horses for about 30 years and have never seen a horse colic without pain. That is the major symptom! Has the Field been fertilized lately? It is very hard to tell but from what you describe I would personally doubt it was colic. I for sure would keep the other horse out of that field. Remember that it is spring and horses can become very sick gorging them selves on all the new green grass. If you field is coming in fast I would not allow my horse out 24/7 on new grass. maybe 2-3 hrs per day is it. Just my Take Care!

[RidgeRunner]

Sorry to hear about the loss of your horse. All us horse owners know how hard it is to deal with a sick or injured horse.

[bassettmama]

I kind of thought that a horse had to be in pain to be colicy, but I have only had horses about 4 years maybe, with 1 of those years, the horses boarded at a friend's. Our pasture is almost bare, since they have been in it all winter with little change of location. Our shelter is only on one side of our property, so the horses stay on that side except when it is nice out(which you know is seldom in the winter). We also haven't treated the pasture with anything, because the horses are always one it. The horses got fed hay and grain daily, usually only about 6 pounds a day each. I am not going to have an autopsy done, it won't bring him back and it will take money from the other horse and my family. So, I'm just going to check the field and watch my other poor lonely horse as closely as I can being at work 50 to 60 hours a week.

Thank you for all your help and support I really appreciate it, my youngest child is the one that is most broke up about it, she loved that horse. I liked him alot too, but he was pony sized and I never rode him, I only started his training, and helped the bonding between him and my daughter, who was going to be his rider when he was finished training.

Originally Posted by Go_Getter

I have been around horses for about 30 years and have never seen a horse colic without pain. That is the major symptom! Has the Field been fertilized lately? It is very hard to tell but from what you describe I would personally doubt it was colic. I for sure would keep the other horse out of that field. Remember that it is spring and horses can become very sick gorging them selves on all the new green grass. If you field is coming in fast I would not allow my horse out 24/7 on new grass. maybe 2-3 hrs per day is it. Just my Take Care!

[fishkisser]

Sounds like He foundered to me ... or depending on his age a possible stroke ...
Sorry about your loss ...

[TheTexan]

You guys are really confusing me about a horse that has founder???? Is it known as something else here in Oregon?

This is my definition:

Founder means that your horse a mechanical problem with the hoof: due to poor hoof form, the laminae of the hoof capsule degenerated to the point where they could no longer hold their connection to the coffin bone (often showing up after a bout of laminitis, which can also be triggered by the mechanical founder). Your horse's coffin bone then rotated, and the degree of rotation is determined by x-rays from your veterinarian. A mild rotation of 5 degrees is considered possible to fix even by traditional standards, while rotations of 10 degrees and above (some horses can be 20 or 30 degrees rotated) are considered much more difficult, as the hoof is so severely damaged. However, horses have been brought back to health from serious rotation, though it will take considerable effort to do so (and the horse may need to be placed in a specialized hoof care clinic).

I am really not sure what you are considering founder. Please explain....

[traks44]

He wasnt rolling or trying to roll was he?

Sounds like it time to switch vets. All the vets over here have people on call so no matter what time of day or night or even if they are busy they will help as much as they can.

[Go_Getter]

Originally Posted by traks44

He wasnt rolling or trying to roll was he?

Sounds like it time to switch vets. All the vets over here have people on call so no matter what time of day or night or even if they are busy they will help as much as they can.

I agree you need to find a better vet. large animal vets know how serious it is and will come no matter what.

Texan,

Founder can cause all sorts of illnesses unless it is caught in time. You can founder a horse by giving them to much water. It is a high fever that ends up in the hoof. The hoof is usually where the horse pays the price but not the cause. A horse can go into shock from foundering.
Horses have very complex internal organs and this type of thing could be caused from anything. Maybe even Tanzy poisoning before these people even got the horse. Founder can cause liver and kidney failure...way to complex to figure out without an autopsy. Hope that helps a little...I'm not vet and don't pretend to be either, I have a good one and then there is always OSU!

[Nalu]

Originally Posted by bassettmama

So, I'm just going to check the field and watch my other poor lonely horse as closely as I can being at work 50 to 60 hours a week.

Thank you for all your help and support I really appreciate it, my youngest child is the one that is most broke up about it, she loved that horse. I liked him alot too, but he was pony sized and I never rode him, I only started his training, and helped the bonding between him and my daughter, who was going to be his rider when he was finished training.

Sorry for your loss. If you don't have one now, you may consider getting a goat to pasture with your remaining horse. Goats and horses get along really well and this would ease your distress at having your horse alone by providing excellent low maintenance company.

[Go_Getter]

Originally Posted by Nalu

Sorry for your loss. If you don't have one now, you may consider getting a goat to pasture with your remaining horse. Goats and horses get along really well and this would ease your distress at having your horse alone by providing excellent low maintenance company.

Really a great idea!!!

[fishkisser]

Originally Posted by TheTexan

You guys are really confusing me about a horse that has founder???? Is it known as something else here in Oregon?

This is my definition:

Founder means that your horse a mechanical problem with the hoof: due to poor hoof form, the laminae of the hoof capsule degenerated to the point where they could no longer hold their connection to the coffin bone (often showing up after a bout of laminitis, which can also be triggered by the mechanical founder). Your horse's coffin bone then rotated, and the degree of rotation is determined by x-rays from your veterinarian. A mild rotation of 5 degrees is considered possible to fix even by traditional standards, while rotations of 10 degrees and above (some horses can be 20 or 30 degrees rotated) are considered much more difficult, as the hoof is so severely damaged. However, horses have been brought back to health from serious rotation, though it will take considerable effort to do so (and the horse may need to be placed in a specialized hoof care clinic).

I am really not sure what you are considering founder. Please explain....

A typically misused term for a horse going down for no apparent reason ...
Kinda like the cowboy term " wind colic " the poor hoof form / laminitis you refer to is usually caused out here by a horse ingesting too much green grass ... therefore the term grass founder , this usually leads to bloating and gastric distress before it ever has a chance to effect the hoof and the horse goes down ...
Sorry ... I have just been a ranch hand for most of my life , not a vet...

[bassettmama]

What I have been told,by some people, is that foundering is when the gets overweight,(which mine wasn't) the hoof then is injured and the horse then get sick, because they can't move much to keep their digestion working correctly. I don't know if this is correct, but that is the definition I have..

Originally Posted by TheTexan

You guys are really confusing me about a horse that has founder???? Is it known as something else here in Oregon?

This is my definition:

Founder means that your horse a mechanical problem with the hoof: due to poor hoof form, the laminae of the hoof capsule degenerated to the point where they could no longer hold their connection to the coffin bone (often showing up after a bout of laminitis, which can also be triggered by the mechanical founder). Your horse's coffin bone then rotated, and the degree of rotation is determined by x-rays from your veterinarian. A mild rotation of 5 degrees is considered possible to fix even by traditional standards, while rotations of 10 degrees and above (some horses can be 20 or 30 degrees rotated) are considered much more difficult, as the hoof is so severely damaged. However, horses have been brought back to health from serious rotation, though it will take considerable effort to do so (and the horse may need to be placed in a specialized hoof care clinic).

I am really not sure what you are considering founder. Please explain....

[bassettmama]

There are only two large animal vets in my area, one doesn't care at all about the animals only the money. The other is so busy he can't keep up, because no one including me wants to go to the first.

No the horse wasn't rolling or even trying to roll around, I've conacted someone who has had horses for years and years, and she said it was most likely colic, like most of you have said. Her horse coliced last year and was just lathargic and wouldn't eat, thank goodness she realized that he was sick(he survived with medicine and an orpeation to clear a bowel obestruction.(same symptoms as my horse almost to a tee). Her horse was bigger, stronger and older than mine, which may have helped.

Originally Posted by traks44

He wasnt rolling or trying to roll was he?

Sounds like it time to switch vets. All the vets over here have people on call so no matter what time of day or night or even if they are busy they will help as much as they can.

[bassettmama]

Thank you, I'll think about it and talk to my husband.

Originally Posted by Nalu

Sorry for your loss. If you don't have one now, you may consider getting a goat to pasture with your remaining horse. Goats and horses get along really well and this would ease your distress at having your horse alone by providing excellent low maintenance company.

[Incredible_Bulk]

First off, I'm so sorry about your horse.

As you were describing the symptoms, there could have been something eaten. I agree, likely not the gopher poison. You don't have any different plants that your horse may have been snacking on? Tansy Ragwort, or other invasive species? Yellow Starthistle? There are many of them that can cause bloat real bad and kill horses and cattle. If the horse got ahold of a field of Tansy, it could have caused a rapid onset.

Just my

[Lou]

I didn't see anything about it's age. I lost my buddy two years
ago . 27 years of close companion.
I vote for the stroke, if no pain is seen.
I am truley sorry for your loss.
Some times animals just give up, especially with age.
Lou

[bassettmama]

He was only 4 years old.

Originally Posted by Lou

I didn't see anything about it's age. I lost my buddy two years
ago . 27 years of close companion.
I vote for the stroke, if no pain is seen.
I am truley sorry for your loss.
Some times animals just give up, especially with age.
Lou

[bassettmama]

We had a little bit of tansy, but we pick it at the roots, when we see it, so there is hardly ever any in our fields. What does Yellow starthistle look like, I've never heard of it? The only thistle I've seen in the field in the regular purple stuff.

Originally Posted by Incredible_Bulk

First off, I'm so sorry about your horse.

As you were describing the symptoms, there could have been something eaten. I agree, likely not the gopher poison. You don't have any different plants that your horse may have been snacking on? Tansy Ragwort, or other invasive species? Yellow Starthistle? There are many of them that can cause bloat real bad and kill horses and cattle. If the horse got ahold of a field of Tansy, it could have caused a rapid onset.

Just my

[7pointbull]

A couple of other things most people are not aware of.

Horses can die from horestail ferns, but they have to eat a lot of them over time as the toxins build up, Arsenic I believe. they won't eat them unless there is almost nothing else. They are not up now in most places

Black Walnut trees. Very toxic to horses and usually will send them into colic. Even the sawdust is poisonous. No leaves out yet but they could have access to bark or limbs etc.

The drooling is supect? I never noticed a colic horse drooling and it is not in my horse vet book.

[Incredible_Bulk]

Originally Posted by bassettmama

We had a little bit of tansy, but we pick it at the roots, when we see it, so there is hardly ever any in our fields. What does Yellow starthistle look like, I've never heard of it? The only thistle I've seen in the field in the regular purple stuff.

You'd know it if you had it. It's a lot like a thistle, only yellow, if you've got one, you've got LOTS. It's pretty prolific.

Here's an article describing its toxicity in horses. Scroll down to see if symptoms match.

http://wric.ucdavis.edu/yst/impacts/impacts.html

[RidgeRunner]

Originally Posted by traks44

He wasnt rolling or trying to roll was he?

Sounds like it time to switch vets. All the vets over here have people on call so no matter what time of day or night or even if they are busy they will help as much as they can.

I would call the vets that are within a hour drive of your place and see who will show up and who will not for emergency calls and non-emergency calls. Check to see if they will show up at all times of the day and night. Also, do you have a barn that you take your horses to ride? Some barns have Vet day once a month for regular schedules and you could find out more information from talking to the vet at a barn.

[Lou]

I have asked around a bit. The excess siliva could be extreem
pain or just colic. Mammals tend to drool, when in pain.
I would certainly watch the other horse, in case of posion and
get a reliable vet!
Ask around, you should be able to get one.
Good luck and sorry for your terrible loss.
Lou

[sandy77]

That is sad, sorry for your loss. It doesn't sound like colic to me, though it could be a possibility. Did you check the inside of his eyelids? If they are yellow, it strongly indicates liver failure which is common with poisoning.

That's pretty bad that your vet chose calving over your horse emergency.

[MsOutdrs]

Have the new horses changed? We had thistle, a little tansy (although we tried to keep it cleaned up) and had two big walnut trees in the pasture. Never a problem. Only problem we ever had was when one of the horses got into the grain storage barrel and overate...I had to walk it, walk it, walk it to keep it from what my dad called "foundering". Also, when I was a kid, one of the most noticeable results of foundering was a pronounced stiffness in the front shoulders. Things are so different with the horse world now. For example what people call a registered appy now...not a blanket or a spot on it. And they are getting big bucks for it? Apply is a color....if it doesn't have a blanket or spots, to me, I don't give a rip how much "paper" its got, its no appy. Sorry, didn't mean to divert the thread. I'm done!!! haha

[tikkahunter]

"That's pretty bad that your vet chose calving over your horse emergency." darn cattle people getting in the way of hobby horse
any way we have had a couple cows before die about like you are saying and i do understand that their insides are totally different but, in our case the vet said that they will get a ball of grain in their stomach that will kind of ferment and then break up and release a bunch of toxins into their body and it is usually fairly quick death. the other thing it could be is a stroke as mentioned above

[sandy77]

Tikka, I've raised cattle and I do not begrudge cattle veterinary care. However, cows calve all the time and calving in itself is not an emergency. Most calving emergencies can be handled with your own arm. Equine emergencies, though, go downhill in a quick hurry, just as Bassett's "hobby horse" did.

Originally Posted by tikkahunter

"That's pretty bad that your vet chose calving over your horse emergency." darn cattle people getting in the way of hobby horse