Big WOLF?? Kill - Just got this through email

[beardbuster]

Looks like this 300 inch bull ran in to the king of the woods













If these fellas leave this bull alone, it would be a great place to whack a kitty in the next couple days.

[No Fences]

Any story to go with the pics? Location?

[Art Vandeley]

Wow, it sure looks like the Cat didn't eat a whole lot of it. Maybe it was planning on coming back to it? I always hate seeing these big bulls getting killed during their most vulnerable time of year. I just can't wait for the snow to melt. Thanks for the post!

Mitch

[MJ13]

Wow that is amazing. where was it at?

[Thehunter]

This actual two Wolves that killed the bull and it's in Idaho.....I have about 7 more picture of the seen. I will try to post them later.

[ORsouthpaw]

I'm sure that Mr. Kitty wasn't very far away when those guys were wandering around his kill.

[Chug]

Nice kitty paw print..

I would be carrying something bigger then a Hatchet!!... Gun perhaps?.

Good spot for Trail cams.. This would be Perfect spot to watch, Fresh legal BAIT!!

Any Info? on locations? state?.

[beardbuster]

All I got was an email full of photo's. I'd like to see the others if there is more

[High Country]

I'll second on the wolves. I got this email about a month ago, story is a logger saw the tracks and found the bull at the end of the trail bull managed to hook one of the wolves. I'll dig up the story and post more.

[High Country]

Here is the story as I recieved it!!!


BOY THIS SUCKS!!! It just gets worse for the hunters!!!


This 6x8 bull was killed a week ago up wolf creek which is 30 miles out of Libby , MT.
Two wolves killed it, ate a bite or two of meat and left, never did come back.
Pic # 032 shows where the bull had “hooked” a wolf with his antlers and had thrown him out into the snow.
A local logger seen blood and tracks on the road going to their job and followed the blood to the dead bull.
He fought hard but only two wolves can kill a bull that’s in his prime.
Goes to show you how bad ass wolves really are. More proof that wolves do in fact kill for fun!

If a person does this, it is known as being a poacher…well looks like wolves are poachers after all. Should we fine them and revoke their hunting and fishing privileges for three years? Probably more since this bull may fall in the category as a trophy class animal.

[beardbuster]

Seems like all these stories happen around Libby MT. The grizzly struck by a truck. The dead bulls caught in the fence....

[Hunt'nFish]

Interesting not a kitty afterall.....I was gonna say wolf based on the track and hamstring kill, but didn't want to seem like I was crying WOLF.
Hunt'nFish

[Gun Rod Bow]

Carcass looks like what wolves do, drag them down from behind and the animals die from shock while being eaten alive.

Nasty way to die.

Yellowstone studies show the majority of what wolves kill in the spring are mature bulls.

There goes another 10 tags.

[Tightlip]

i don't know about the rest of you but that makes me damn near sick!

[beardbuster]

Iam not a tracking expert so I was nt sure when I got the email. right now, unless it has three toes and spurs - I'm not interested.

[scubaseth]

Thats some impresive pictures no matter what animal it was. That blood trail is crazy.

Scuba

[nakoa]

that is crazy thanks for shareing

[Bill Monroe]

Another thing that keeps wolves from coming back (not as much with cats) is the appearance/presence of humans. They'll just go off and kill another one.

Not sure I'd call that "for fun."

[Lefty]

Originally Posted by beardbuster

Seems like all these stories happen around Libby MT. The grizzly struck by a truck. The dead bulls caught in the fence....

Yeah that! I don't believe any of it. Could have easily been photo shopped, so I will wait to cast my opinion when some concrete evidence shows up. Either way, helluva nice bull!

[beardbuster]

It's not photoshopped. It definitely happened, what did it is the main question.

[OutdoorBum]

Bill Monroe is right....humans spreading their stink all over the place definitely keeps those animals from coming back..so, kill for fun?

Not to mention that generations of elk have not had to deal with wolves as a predator, but they will eventually adapt. Herd mechanics have already changed in the Frank Church wilderness and will continue to do so. But the elk are still there though you have to hunt for them differently.

Elk, originally a Great Plains animal, had to move into thicker cover (and hence deal with a whole new predator chain) as the human expansion West pushed them. Very resilient animals, and they've had to deal with the claw and fang long before we got here boys...

[Ghost hunter]

Originally Posted by High Country

Goes to show you how bad ass wolves really are. More proof that wolves do in fact kill for fun

I just watched a show the other night on OPB Alone in the wilderness.
The guy came across a moose killed by wolves which appeared to be just for the heck of it. The ol-timer said he lost his respect for wolves that day. Good show by the way!!

[Lefty]

Originally Posted by Gun Rod Bow

Carcass looks like what wolves do, drag them down from behind and the animals die from shock while being eaten alive.

Nasty way to die.

Yellowstone studies show the majority of what wolves kill in the spring are mature bulls.

There goes another 10 tags.

Interesting you should mention this about Elk in the park...just read this article not too long ago. Good for antelope..bad for the Wapiti.

http://www.mtstandard.com/articles/2...jgjfjigied.txt

[OutdoorBum]

Originally Posted by Lefty

Interesting you should mention this about Elk in the park...just read this article not too long ago. Good for antelope..bad for the Wapiti.

http://www.mtstandard.com/articles/2...jgjfjigied.txt

From my understanding they also pressure the cats quite a bit too....interesting article

The Yellowstone herd were almost like zoo animals with no hunting pressure from man or predator. The herd would swell and then they'd have a huge die-off every so often due to forage contraints, age of herd, etc.
Ghost Hunter...how'd you like that old man on the OPB show building his cabin? He made me tired just watching him!!! I liked the door hinges and pancake batter spoon he made from hand...
sorry, got off topic

[Idahoan]

Originally Posted by Bill Monroe

Another thing that keeps wolves from coming back (not as much with cats) is the appearance/presence of humans. They'll just go off and kill another one.

Not sure I'd call that "for fun."

Why will one wolf kill multiple sheep during the same day?

[OutdoorBum]

Originally Posted by Idahoan

Why will one wolf kill multiple sheep during the same day?

Wolves kill multiple livestock due to instinct. They don't go the grocery store for a T-bone when they've had a long day's hunt and no success. When there's an easy kill like sheep, they do overkill due to the low success rates all predators have when hunting, and so they see the opportunity and take advantage of it.

I AM NOT CONDONING LIVESTOCK PREDATION, I just didn't see any wolves at Toys R Us so I don't believe "fun" is part of the equation. They don't have opposable thumbs and can't do calculus equations, so they have a hard time differentiating between "fair chase" and "hey! there's a lot of meat around here!"

For the record, livestock killers need to be removed or disposed of...just like cats

[mtn300]

Wolves only kill the sick and the weak animals. Ya right. This why we need to shoot them suckers.

[rimrock]

Once this thread posted "wolves are poachers after all" any rational or benefical point to this thread has been completely lost. Not sure why the mods keep these type of threads open? What's the value other than division I wonder?

[OutdoorBum]

Originally Posted by mtn300

Wolves only kill the sick and the weak animals. Ya right. This why we need to shoot them suckers.

Might as well kill ALL the bears, cougars, and coyotes too..forget the ecosystem...we humans can do it all

[Ghost hunter]

Originally Posted by rimrock

Once this thread posted "wolves are poachers after all" any rational or benefical point to this thread has been completely lost. Not sure why the mods keep these type of threads open? What's the value other than division I wonder?

I actually find this thread intresting and i didn't see really any division other than yours.

[rimrock]

Apparantly your both new to wolf threads on the hunt board. And BTW you just made my point with the personal slander.

[willametteriveroutlaw]

Originally Posted by OutdoorBum

Might as well kill ALL the bears, cougars, and coyotes too..forget the ecosystem...we humans can do it all

We still need to control there numbers to benefit humans. That is what god put man on earth to do, manage it for our benefit.. Some people seem to lose sight of that.

[OutdoorBum]

Rimrock....people have differing points of view on lots of threads on ifish, and I don't think the threads are causing the division...its there from the start.

But 1248 viewers are looking at these divisive opinions and maybe forming opinions of their own..what's the harm in that? I for one enjoy some intellectual debate on somewhat sensitive topics, which helps add balance to the site.

That being said, sorry I'm not an old wolf thread expert as yourself...What do you propose we do?

[goforchrome]

Originally Posted by willametteriveroutlaw

We still need to control there numbers to benefit humans. That is what god put man on earth to do, manage it for our benefit.. Some people seem to lose sight of that.

I don't want to start a flambe but I can't tell if this is serious or not.

[OutdoorBum]

Originally Posted by willametteriveroutlaw

We still need to control there numbers to benefit humans. That is what god put man on earth to do, manage it for our benefit.. Some people seem to lose sight of that.

Totally agree...I guess I take exception to the "shoot them suckers" approach in that it really doesn't offer any constructive ideas for management....just kind of seems like a "slay them all" attitude. But you're right..MANAGE is the key word there.

[rimrock]

OutdoorBum, all you said is right on and there is no issue with the different opinions other than how they sometimes can be presented. For reasons of it being such an emotional topic it is rare for a wolf/predator thread to be constructive (just using the past as a guide). In the same why I can't say sealion threads 99% of the time are good for ifish either IMO.

If you have insights to solve the frequent spiral having the advantage of being new to the (wolf/cougar/sealion...) threads, than that would be great! I'm sure the mods would love constructive advice to avoid the common negativity as well when it comes to these subjects.

[OutdoorBum]

Rimrock...no, I don't have any insights...guess I'll get sucked into the "spiral" (toilet bowl?) and then maybe after getting beat up a little bit I'll be more wise and not engage in these threads!!

Then again, maybe everyone will just conform to my way of thinking....

[boatman]

I have hunted in oregon since 1959 and am so HAPPY our game has been so well managed. LeRoy

[gottafish]

Originally Posted by boatman

I have hunted in oregon since 1959 and am so HAPPY our game has been so well managed. LeRoy

[OutdoorBum]

Originally Posted by gottafish

Not sure quite what to say...I smell a new thread...

[ghost grizzly]

Originally Posted by willametteriveroutlaw

We still need to control there numbers to benefit humans. That is what god put man on earth to do, manage it for our benefit.. Some people seem to lose sight of that.

That would depend on whose "god" you are talking about.

Buddhists believe we are all the same and we we should live in harmony and cooperation with the earth--not conquer and manage it.

Native American religions also believe this.

[Rauly]

Just to keep you all apprised of what is happening. This thread has been alerted by more than one. The moderators are watching closely and all need to stay on topic.

[Rauly]

I propose you go back and read the previous wolf threads. That may be a good start.

Originally Posted by OutdoorBum

Rimrock....people have differing points of view on lots of threads on ifish, and I don't think the threads are causing the division...its there from the start.

But 1248 viewers are looking at these divisive opinions and maybe forming opinions of their own..what's the harm in that? I for one enjoy some intellectual debate on somewhat sensitive topics, which helps add balance to the site.

That being said, sorry I'm not an old wolf thread expert as yourself...What do you propose we do?

[mtn300]

Originally Posted by willametteriveroutlaw

We still need to control there numbers to benefit humans. That is what god put man on earth to do, manage it for our benefit.. Some people seem to lose sight of that.

Exactly I didn't say kill everything but wolves seem to do the most damage. I agree with the statement above. If you want wolves move to canada.

[Idahoan]

Originally Posted by mtn300

Exactly I didn't say kill everything but wolves seem to do the most damage. I agree with the statement above. If you want wolves move to canada.

[willametteriveroutlaw]

Originally Posted by ghost grizzly

That would depend on whose "god" you are talking about.

Buddhists believe we are all the same and we we should live in harmony and cooperation with the earth--not conquer and manage it.

Native American religions also believe this.

Both of those groups still belive in managing predators for there benefit as a general rule.

[beardbuster]

So... ummm... that should would have been a great bull in a couple years

[CombinationLicense]

Originally Posted by beardbuster

So... ummm... that should would have been a great bull in a couple years

"CL"

[willametteriveroutlaw]

http://rliv.com/pic/bergerid%20and%20elliot%2098.pdf

[OutdoorBum]

Originally Posted by willametteriveroutlaw

http://rliv.com/pic/bergerid%20and%20elliot%2098.pdf

Good post WRO, I've read the paper before and its one of the most comprehensive studies and findings I've seen. Clearly, as stated in the paper, ungulate populations decline but reach equilibrium with the predators...too low, and the predators decline as well. Thus, the eternal question becomes...what is the equilibrium population of ungulates vs. wolves? We all hope its not too low, and if it is, we should trim wolf numbers or fine tune them to get a higher ungulate number.

As I write this I'm chuckling at the fact its pretty much common sense, and its probably something the ifishers could've come up with without regression analysis. The numbers are interesting though...

Yes, the bull killed in the photo was great...but overpopulation on many levels makes smaller bulls too. Thus, I'd be curious to see how many elk an acre of timbered land will sustain, though I suspect thats already on a previous wolf thread. In other words, what is the equilibrium number now? The Yellowstone herd had wolves, winter, etc. hurting them and were actually out of equilibrium prior to wolf introduction...

[willametteriveroutlaw]

Originally Posted by OutdoorBum

Good post WRO, I've read the paper before and its one of the most comprehensive studies and findings I've seen. Clearly, as stated in the paper, ungulate populations decline but reach equilibrium with the predators...too low, and the predators decline as well. Thus, the eternal question becomes...what is the equilibrium population of ungulates vs. wolves? We all hope its not too low, and if it is, we should trim wolf numbers or fine tune them to get a higher ungulate number.

As I write this I'm chuckling at the fact its pretty much common sense, and its probably something the ifishers could've come up with without regression analysis. The numbers are interesting though...

Yes, the bull killed in the photo was great...but overpopulation on many levels makes smaller bulls too. Thus, I'd be curious to see how many elk an acre of timbered land will sustain, though I suspect thats already on a previous wolf thread. In other words, what is the equilibrium number now? The Yellowstone herd had wolves, winter, etc. hurting them and were actually out of equilibrium prior to wolf introduction...

No, overpopulation does not kill just smaller bulls.. Yellowstone is not the west, thats the fallacy that many use to justify the expansion and unnecessary protection of wolves. Also equlibrium is a fallacy too, look at Jack rabbit numbers for an example on about 10 year cycles the populations boom and bust with equivelent following boom and bust coyote numbers.

The same happens with ungulates, just on a much longer scale, except now the predators have livestock to fall back on which will soften the decline in the predator population when the wild ungulate population crashes. There are very very few places outside of yellowstone and Rocky Mtn national park where elk and deer are or were overpopulated in the west. So now Elk herds, many of which were already in decline pre wolf are facing an Additive predator, not a compensatory predator. In studies done on wolves diets, mature Bulls are the one of the most often killed by wolves because they are run down after the rut and tend to be loners. Followed by kills in the spring of cows and calves.

The issues with unregulated wolf numbers is that i want to ensure the hunting heritage for my Neices and Nephews and there kids. With low elk and deer numbers if predators remain unchecked then I won't get to see that.

[scottishsetter]

That wolf intro into Yellowstone, ONLY for the "transplant", was not to number more than 350. Do your background checks before assuming that the "intro" was for the entire West..........................................

[OutdoorBum]

I never said Yellowstone was the West, or that the wolf intro was for the "west"...simply stating one isolated case of wolf vs. ungulates. On the same lines, the paper you attached WRO had nothing to do with stats in Oregon.

As far as Jacks and coyotes go, the 10 year bust and boom is what I'm talking about. Equilibrium in an ecology sense, doesn't mean your populations are the exact same year over year.

And for the record, I don't want wolf packs everywhere...I just believe in CONTROLLED numbers, because I think they can add a lot to the hunting experience in the wild. Again, CONTROLLED.....not running rampant, but not extinct either.

[willametteriveroutlaw]

Originally Posted by OutdoorBum

I never said Yellowstone was the West, or that the wolf intro was for the "west"...simply stating one isolated case of wolf vs. ungulates. On the same lines, the paper you attached WRO had nothing to do with stats in Oregon.

But if you look at the current stats less wolves, they are similar in many of the units in oregon. How will more wolves in help this situation? That paper shows where Oregon as a state could end up with no predator control. It happens in Alaska and other places where there is good habitat and all public lands.

BTW, Canadian Gray wolves were never extinct.

[Gun Rod Bow]

Originally Posted by willametteriveroutlaw

BTW, Canadian Gray wolves were never extinct.

Yep, all these introduced wolves that have spread across the West are "out of basin" stocks and should be removed before they spawn.

[OutdoorBum]

Originally Posted by willametteriveroutlaw

But if you look at the current stats less wolves, they are similar in many of the units in oregon. How will more wolves in help this situation? That paper shows where Oregon as a state could end up with no predator control. It happens in Alaska and other places where there is good habitat and all public lands.

BTW, Canadian Gray wolves were never extinct.

No, they weren't extinct....but they didn't exist in the lower 48. And I guess I'm a proponent of cougar control too. It wasn't bad when we could hunt with dogs and it didn't seem like there were any issues. Now, the populations are spread and we don't even come close to cougar harvest quotas in any Oregon zone. So in theory, can't a predator like wolves be managed similarly? I'd love a wolf rug in front of my TV, and would do my part to control overpopulation. Maybe that's naive, but again, I like the idea of SOME wolves...that's all

[OutdoorBum]

And WRO, to answer your question, no....wolves in Oregon at this point wouldn't help. But someday with a healthy population of wapiti, couldn't we have a few breeding pairs? I mean, I love wildlife diversity...seeing cougar tracks with my kids and all that, but I'm not saying wolves will help Oregon now. Nor am I saying that wolf management in general has been a success as far as ungulates are concerned. Took too long to delist, etc. etc....but we kicked these things butts and eliminated them from our area entirely...I don't think "overspawning" is an issue...that is, as long as management objectives are reasonable. C'mon, don't you trust ODFW??

[CW59]

Trust ODFW, Ha Ha there is a new thread if I ever saw one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Let me guess they spend all the money wiselly also?
Maybe they should turn ODFW over to Ifish and let us dook it out for the new law"s and agenda's
LOL


CW For president!!!!!!!!!!
do I have a second?

[OutdoorBum]

Originally Posted by CW59

Trust ODFW, Ha Ha there is a new thread if I ever saw one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Let me guess they spend all the money wiselly also?
Maybe they should turn ODFW over to Ifish and let us dook it out for the new law"s and agenda's
LOL


CW For president!!!!!!!!!!
do I have a second?

I'll vote for you!!!!

[willametteriveroutlaw]

Originally Posted by OutdoorBum

No, they weren't extinct....but they didn't exist in the lower 48.

Yes they did, there were packs that lived in northern Montana and Idaho pre-introduction.