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Old 11-07-2001, 02:10 PM   #1
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Default Judge Hogan keeps fish de-listed

JUDGE HOGAN WANTS MORE TIME TO DECIDE COHO APPEAL

Federal judge Michael Hogan ruled last week that he will not put coastal Oregon coho back under ESA protection while appeals make their way through his court. Environmental groups, led by Seattle-based Earthjustice, had requested a stay of Hogan's decision to de-list the stock (Alsea Valley Alliance v. NMFS) while they try to gain intervenor status in the case.

The groups are afraid that the feds won't appeal Hogan's ruling, which has the potential of turning many West Coast listings upside down. Hogan said NMFS couldn't list only the wild component of the Oregon coho for protection if some hatchery fish were also included in that "environmentally significant unit," or ESU, which the feds have done with most ESUs on the West Coast.

"The judge denied a request for a stay of his order," said EJ attorney Kristen Boyles. But she said Hogan was giving them enough time to file another brief. "The judge had questions," she added. Earthjustice has until Nov. 9 to file another brief. The environmentalists have said they will go to the Ninth Circuit, if they have to, in order to gain intervenor status.

NMFS, which filed a memo opposing intervention by the environmental and fishing groups, has until Nov. 9 to decide whether it will appeal Hogan's ruling. The government argued that the intervenor motion is "untimely," because "it has been a year and a half that the listing of the Oregon Coastal coho has been at issue...". In a response to the motion to stay, Justice Department attorney Sam Rauch also argued that the motion for intervention should be resolved before the motion for stay was briefed.

NMFS hasn't tipped its hand, but the smart money is betting that the feds won't pursue an appeal. Instead, they will likely develop a fish protection plan that includes hatchery reforms and updated status reviews along with possible de-listings or revoked listings.

One possible signal came late last month when NMFS submitted Hogan's order in a DC lawsuit that disputes the agency's determination of critical habitat in 19 West Coast ESUs (National Association of Home Builders v. Evans), a suit that includes the Oregon coastal coho. NMFS told the judge that since the coho listing had been invalidated, the critical habitat designation for that ESU was no longer in place. Attorneys familiar with the case say it's not likely that the federal government would have gone to that much trouble if it were planning to appeal the Hogan ruling.

Attorneys in another lawsuit (Common Sense Salmon Recovery v. NMFS) that disputes the listing of Puget Sound chinook without counting hatchery fish met recently with new NMFS regional director Bob Lohn and are encouraged by the discussion, according to Olympia attorney James Johnson.

"Lohn said we will be advised by the Ninth if they appeal Alsea," Johnson said, "or, if they don't, how they apply the case in the future." Johnson has offered to settle his case, in light of the Alsea decision, by recommending that NMFS simply "withdraw" the listings of salmon and steelhead that fit the Hogan decision parameters.

Johnson noted that environmental groups were denied intervenor status in his case, which was filed in DC federal court. If the groups take their present motion to intervene all the way to the Ninth Circuit, he believes their chances of succeeding are "virtually zero." Johnson said the groups might get status if they could prove their interests were not adequately represented by the federal agency, but he thought the timely issue was more basic. The larger issue will soon be on the table when NMFS announces whether it will appeal.

Earthjustice had quoted NMFS spokesperson Brian Gorman in its original memo as evidence the agency may not appeal, noting Gorman "has been quoted in the media as saying that he agrees with the Court's decision--a statement that strongly suggests NMFS will not appeal."

In response, government attorneys said EJ is interpreting Gorman's remarks, but nowhere do they suggest their interests were "inadequately represented," nor "can Defendant-Intervenor Applicants point to any argument in support of the listing that the government failed to raise prior to judgment."

The larger issue will soon be on the table when NMFS announces whether it will appeal. If it decides not to press the ruling, some observers think the agency will review the status of fish listings and may move to include hatchery fish in ESUs to satisfy the legal questions raised by Hogan's decision, which could lead to de-listings.

Although the judge was careful not to tread upon genetics arguments over the relative merit of hatchery and wild fish, those questions have already been raised in an affidavit from Earthjustice. The document contains the remarks of Northwest biologist Jim Lichatowich, long an advocate for wild fish.

"Over the past two decades," said Lichatowich, "a growing body of scientific evidence has documented the threats that hatchery fish pose to wild salmon populations. These threats fall broadly into three categories: (1) threats to genetic diversity and population fitness; (2) ecological threats; and (3) threats from fisheries that target mixed hatchery and wild stocks."

He pointed out other problems that hatcheries pose--reducing fitness of wild populations through interbreeding; shifting spawning times, and overcrowding streams that move wild fish into marginal habitats, along with increasing harvest rates to target hatchery fish at the expense of wild stocks.

On the other hand, hatchery proponents have been sharpening their knives lately. A paper on the role of hatcheries has been making the rounds, distributed by supporters of the Hogan decision. It was written by six retired biologists, including federal scientist Gary Wedemeyer, along with Jim Lannan, William McNeil, Don Amend, and Charlie Smith.

"The genetics arguments supporting wild fish are politicized science," Wedemeyer told NW Fishletter.

In the paper on the role of hatcheries, the biologists say that arguments over "fitness" are theoretical, and conveniently ignore the fact that both hatchery and wild fish "are acted upon by the same evolutionary forces during the majority of their life cycle in the ocean."

They also say that most of the criticism of hatchery salmon "is based on comparisons between divergent stocks of fish, which is not a true comparison between wild and hatchery fish from the same stock." The scientists say these old arguments are clouded by uncertainties, with too few well-designed studies to provide the hard data to test assumptions.

They point out that regardless of how the ESA legally defines a species, "the gene remains the fundamental unit of heredity," and when some genetic resources are lost, they cannot be restored. "It is now entirely possible," they say, "that there is greater genetic diversity in hatchery salmon populations than in some wild populations."

Some wild fish advocates admit privately that the push to overturn the Hogan decision may be based less on a love for wild stocks than an attempt to keep coastal timber harvests at a minimum level. In fact, after the judge refused to stay his decision, the BLM and Forest Service released more than a dozen timber sales that had been blocked by a federal judge in Seattle who ruled that the harvests would adversely threaten coho streams. -Bill Rudolph
this is from fishwire advisory
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Old 11-08-2001, 02:58 PM   #2
rob allen
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Default Re: Judge Hogan keeps fish de-listed

Fine go kill off your fish. I don't fish for coho in Oregon anyway. The facts remains and no one disputes them.. Wild coho are endanger of becoming extinct.. Hatchery coho do contribute signifigantly to the problem, And Nothing is currently being done to protect wild coho. Open up coho habitat to timber harvest and kiss your coho goodbye.
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Old 11-08-2001, 04:15 PM   #3
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Default Re: Judge Hogan keeps fish de-listed

Rob Allen - I couldn't have said it better!
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Old 11-08-2001, 09:22 PM   #4
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Default Re: Judge Hogan keeps fish de-listed

The fact remains - and I don't know how anyone could dispute it, that on any Oregon stream with a silver salmon hatchery or stocking program there is no such thing as a truly wild coho. The notion of untainted lineage is romantic, but the reality is that whether a silver has an adipose or not has little to do with whether there is a hatchery fish somewhere in its lineage.

Does that mean we don't protect the runs and try and keep them diverse? Obviously not. But the high horse thing is a little sickening.
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Old 11-09-2001, 03:17 PM   #5
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Default Re: Judge Hogan keeps fish de-listed

What's really sickening is those that use that same unfounded opinion to support the notion that we don't have to protect rivers, habitat, et al, as we can just grow more fish in hatcheries.

See Lichatowich's book "Salmon without Rivers".
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Old 11-09-2001, 03:58 PM   #6
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Default Re: Judge Hogan keeps fish de-listed

If there were a difference, native vs. hatchery, why would the NMFS not appeal?

NMFS WILL NOT APPEAL DECISION DELISTING OREGON SALMON; DELISTING OF
WASHINGTON SALMON LIKELY
The National Marine Fisheries Service (NMFS) decided today to not appeal
the decision by an Oregon federal District Court judge invalidating the
federal agency's listing of Oregon coast coho salmon as threatened under
the ESA.

The court ruled in Alsea Valley Alliance v. Evans in September that NMFS's
listing of Oregon coast coho salmon is unlawful because the listing did not
include hatchery-spawned coho. The court found hatchery-spawned coho
salmon are genetically indistinguishable from naturally-spawned "wild" coho
salmon, and therefore must be included as part of total coho population
counts. NMFS listed only naturally-spawned "wild" Oregon coast coho
salmon, deciding that hatchery-spawned coho were not "essential for
recovery."
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Old 11-09-2001, 04:29 PM   #7
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Default Re: Judge Hogan keeps fish de-listed

The scientific issue are those of fitness, variable life history and ability to survive over time.

I disagree with the analysis above, apparently written by a news service.

Hogan's ruling was based on a procedural matter - not on one or another biological argument prevailing.

Why NMFS is not appealing is a good question -- and one that they need to answer.

This latest news is another strike against salmon recovery. I expect wild coho stocks will be listed again, and done properly this time. But in the meanwhile habitat degradation will continue, and perhaps even accelerate as the Forest Service jams through timber sales before protective measures are again restored.

The cumulative effect will that be that wild coho are pushed closed to extinction, and their recovery made that much more difficult.

Chalk another win for the Bush administration - and a loss for the fish.
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Old 11-10-2001, 05:39 AM   #8
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Default Re: Judge Hogan keeps fish de-listed

And in more unsettling "Business as usual" news ... the Saturday Oregonian reports that NMFS will not appeal Hogan's ruling. Instead they will review 23 other steelhead and chinook listings to see if they can be removed from protected status. [I will reserve my strong reaction to this.]
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Old 11-10-2001, 06:41 AM   #9
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Default Re: Judge Hogan keeps fish de-listed

Native coho runs give an indication of the health of an eco-system. According to Judge Hogan they can destroy all the spawning habitat, put in culverts, release sediment in the stream, and destroy the native coho as long as they have a hatchery and produce hatchery fish. However the only way to put development in check is if the hatchery fish populations decline. I hope Earth Justice appeals this ruling all the way to the Ninth Curcuit Court of Appeals.
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Old 11-10-2001, 07:39 AM   #10
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Earth justice has no standing in the court, they cannot appeal!
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Old 11-10-2001, 10:22 AM   #11
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Default Re: Judge Hogan keeps fish de-listed

Finaly the wild fish talibaneese got into a court where they had to to prove the difference between a wild fish vs.a hatchery fish.and they can't,because there is no difference,genetically nor physical,
I feel very proud of the fact I was the one that brought up the fact there is no d.n.a. test to differentiate a hatchery fish from a wild fish.so what will the wild fish maniacs within o.d.f.w. try next to further there crazey wild fish policey?
This wild fish policey has been going on for ten years, with no improvement to our fishery until the ocean conditions turned around.and now we have millions of fish,so what does o.d.f.w. do they kill all the excess fish at the hatcherys instead of letting them go up the river and spawn.
I am sure this will be challenged in the very near future,and put an end to this madness that has been going on for the past 10 years.
You people that don't live on the river dont see what is going on you only beleive what you hear a lot of it is pure fabrication by the fund raisers to further their efforts to raise money,
I applaud Hogans decision and look forward to odfw trying to defend killing fish at the hatchery,as we fully intend to get it into court.
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Old 11-10-2001, 02:52 PM   #12
rob allen
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Default Re: Judge Hogan keeps fish de-listed

Anyone who thinks that there are no pure wild coho left has not read the documentation on how poorly hatchery salmon especially Coho reproduce when they spawn in the wild.. Because there is no real reproduction with these hatchery fish spawning in the wild that means that the fish returning unclipped are the progeny of wild salmon NOT hatchery salmon spawning in the wild.. Also because of the hatchery salmons documented loss of aggressivness wild salmon rarely if ever intermix..
These two circumstances are why the wild stocks we have now have very very little hatchery genetics..
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Old 11-11-2001, 04:35 PM   #13
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Default Re: Judge Hogan keeps fish de-listed

Hey Hustlerjim

you wrote: "You people that don't live on the river dont see what is going on you only beleive what you hear a lot of it is pure fabrication by the fund raisers to further their efforts to raise money"

what exactly do you mean by this?

Hogan's ruling was sound because the ESA is flawed, not because hatchery fish are the same as wild fish.
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Old 11-11-2001, 06:07 PM   #14
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Default Re: Judge Hogan keeps fish de-listed

Rob Allen - I'd like to read the "documentation". Is it the same river specific info I've heard others quote? Is there a link that you could provide?

I thought it was interesting to catch "wild" coho pushing through with the hatchery runs at the mouth of cedar creek on the Sandy this year. Do people really think that there isn't some successful interbreeding and/or river spawning of hatchery fish? Let's say, for the sake of argument, that it was minimal. Still, over the 50 year history of a salmon hatchery, lets say 15 generations of salmon, it wouldn't take mutch for the probability of a pure wild salmon to be remote. Not that there might not be some, it just seems a little arbitrary to be so passionate about them as if they were all this untainted superbreed of fish.

And if hatchery fish are so pathetic at spawning they obviously don't compete with wild fish, right? And they won't interbreed because the runs aren't at the same time, right? So why not stop bonking the hatchery fish to keep them from upstream spawning? By these arguments they really can't harm the wild runs.

My favorite place on earth to fish used to be the N. Fork Nehalem above the hatchery in the fall. Beautiful water, no pressure, lots of hatchery fish. Now they stop them all at the falls and bonk them. Plus they closed the fishing for the strays that avoided the fish ladder (even though they were genetically inferior they managed to jump the falls). All because the hatchery fish competed with the wild.

AGAIN, I am not saying by any of this that habitat protection isn't important. I've seen the damage that sloppy logging can do to a watershed with the wrong kind of soils upstream.
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Old 11-12-2001, 07:43 AM   #15
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Do hatchery salmon help or harm the wild ones?

Monday, November 12, 2001

By ROBERT McCLURE
SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER REPORTER

The killer appears faceless, his visage obscured inside the hood of his dark green raincoat. He grabs the salmon, then lifts a baseball bat high over his head.


Wham! He dispatches the flopping fish with a few swift whacks, then moves on to the next. Captured on videotape by a hunter who stumbled onto this scene at an Oregon fish hatchery, the faceless salmon-killer and his accomplices spawned widespread outrage. Since then, the scene has been played again and again -- before Realtors and the Rotary, in cafes and Capitol meeting rooms.

People asked: Why did state employees kill these fish? Why not let them breed? The answer lies in a cornerstone of the government's salmon-rescue blueprint, which boils down to this: the wilder, the better.

When studies showed that hatcheries appeared in some cases to reduce the abundance of wild salmon, some hatchery runs -- like the one the Oregon hunter videotaped in 1998 -- were targeted for extinction.

The video's stark portrayal of workers clubbing fish ignited a fierce debate that reverberated in federal courtrooms and that on Friday prompted the federal government to announce it will rethink its salmon-protection policy.

The debate is this: Can hatcheries that were built primarily to augment salmon and steelhead fishing be tweaked to help struggling wild runs, rather than hurt them?

Some suspect not. For years, scientists have compiled evidence suggesting that the presence of hatchery-bred fish can be harmful to wild fish and that hatchery-bred fish are less able to survive in the long run than wild ones.

But increasingly, property-rights advocates, Indian tribes and timber, farming and construction interests are questioning the conventional scientific wisdom. Tribes, in particular, want to experiment with reforming hatchery practices to help struggling wild runs recover.

"We're spending millions of dollars to produce hatchery fish, and when they come back, we're killing half to three-quarters of them," said Andre Talbot, a fish scientist with the Columbia River Inter Tribal Fish Commission. "It's stupid. These are valuable animals."

Counters Bill Bakke of the Native Fish Society: "Where we've closed down hatcheries in the past, at least in some cases, the fish population has actually increased. It's this mythology that the hatchery is the source of our fish that is the problem."

In a court case sparked by the hunter's video, U.S. District Judge Michael Hogan ruled Sept. 10 that salmon raised in the hatchery near Oregon's Alsea River deserve the same legal protection as salmon spawned naturally in a nearby creek. He said federal officials improperly refused to protect hatchery-bred fish under the Endangered Species Act.

On Friday, National Marine Fisheries Service officials announced that the government would not appeal that ruling. Instead, NMFS is launching a yearlong re-examination of the fitness of hatchery fish.

In the balance hangs the future role of Northwest hatcheries -- including Washington's state-run hatchery system, the world's largest -- that have cost hundreds of millions of tax dollars over the past two decades.

The case could also lead to a re-counting of most West Coast salmon and steelhead stocks. If hatchery fish are counted, at least some stocks will prove numerous enough to lose Endangered Species Act protection, environmentalists fear.

"If hatchery fish can have the (act's) protection, it's as if we'd settle for lions in zoos and say it's the same as lions in the Serengeti," said Patti Goldman, a Seattle lawyer trying to appeal Hogan's ruling on behalf of environmentalists.

Property-rights advocates say they simply want to temper strict land-use restrictions imposed to protect salmon-bearing streams.

"It's not that we hate salmon or hate fishermen," said Russ Brooks, a Bellevue attorney with the Pacific Legal Foundation whose suit led to Hogan's decision. "There's got to be some balance. The government needs to realize that they're affecting people's lives."

Salmon hatcheries have been a part of the Northwest since the late 1870s, when cannery owners built one on Oregon's Clackamas River. Having seen how Eastern fisheries were hammered by pollution and overfishing, they wanted to hedge their bets, and hatcheries do an excellent job of increasing the survival of salmon eggs and fry.

But salmon must then go to sea and return before reproducing. As dams were built that walled off huge sections of river where fish no longer could spawn, still more hatcheries were built.

Even as early as the 1950s, though, studies suggested that fish raised in hatcheries do not survive as well as their wild counterparts.

Today, the state and federal governments operate about 100 hatcheries or related facilities in Washington, while tribes and local governments run others.

Near one on the Columbia River east of Vancouver, hatchery manager Ed LaMotte recently spotted two salmon pushing up the channel of the White Salmon River, their black bodies scabbed up from fighting through the rocks. Probably "strays," or fish that were born in the nearby federal hatchery but failed to return there, LaMotte speculated.

"She's probably trying to build a redd," or nest, LaMotte said, pointing to one. "There's not a lot of good gravel, but she's trying."

Upstream, the Condit dam holds back gravel needed by fish for nesting. Downstream, the Bonneville dam flooded the areas in the Columbia where fish used to spawn. When the Condit dam is removed in 2006, it will open up lots of spawning ground. But virtually the only fish left in this run are those coming from his hatchery, LaMotte said.

"The genetics of the fish we raise in the hatchery isn't exactly the same as the genetics of the stock a hundred years ago, but it's about as close as you're going to get," LaMotte said. "With a little luck, some of the same traits that the fish need to survive in the wild will still be preserved."

Many scientists, however, say naturally spawned fish are the most likely to conserve much-needed genetic variations. Genetic variability has allowed salmon to survive thousands of years in streams as varied as the steep, cold creeks of the rain-drenched Olympic Peninsula and the slow-moving, warmer waters where the Snake River creeps through arid high desert -- all the while hustling to survive through droughts, floods, stream-altering volcanoes and earthquakes, and in an ocean whose hospitality regularly surges and swoons.

Fish born outside a hatchery are genetically programmed to spread their risk.

For example, some lay their eggs in the well-washed gravel of those cool Olympic streams, where they are very likely to survive and hatch. Others nest in the beds of lower-level, warmer streams where they are more likely to be smothered by dirt. However, suppose a drought comes along. The fish in the lower river are most likely to have water throughout the summer. The upper mountain streams might run dry. Later, descendants of the survivors can climb high and recolonize the upper reaches.

Consider also the timing of the salmon's return from the sea to reproduce. Wild fish usually come back over a period of several months, meaning at least some will probably avoid whatever disaster nature throws their way in any given year.

Traditional hatchery management has often destroyed such variability. Fish are purposely hatched together, released together, and they return at roughly the same time. The problem? One example is that birds congregate where millions of young salmon are freed each year. It's an easy meal. Naturally spawned fish happening by get eaten, too.

Hatcheries are notorious for taking fish adapted to one stream and hatching their progeny in another, meaning they may return to spawn, for example, when that particular stream is a raging flood and inhospitable to safe egg laying.

Meanwhile, hatchery fish compete with and overwhelm wild fish. Because they are typically released before wild fish hatch, hatchery fish early in life are larger -- so they gain an advantage competing for living space and food.

Also, the sheer number of hatchery fish allows fishing seasons to go on when they otherwise would be shut down for lack of fish -- yet some fish from struggling wild runs get caught, too. And diseases caused by hatchery conditions can be transmitted to wild fish.

Fish biologist Jim Lichatowich decries hatcheries' "herds of salmon."

"Unlike the salmon raised in a hatchery environment, with its feedlot regime, the salmon in a natural population in a healthy river do not all do the same thing in the same place at the same time," Lichatowich points out in his 1999 book "Salmon Without Rivers."

Even though the fish are not always distinguishable in genetic tests, there are definite behavioral differences stemming from the hatchery experience, critics note.

"Hatcheries and the wild stream have only two things in common -- daylight, and water," said Patrick Hulett, a researcher with the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife.

Bakke's Portland-based Native Fish Society assembled a compendium of more than five dozen scientific papers regarding the hatchery-versus-wild debate. Among the findings:

· Adding hatchery coho to Oregon coastal streams did not boost the number of adults returning from the sea to spawn. "Our introduction of (young hatchery fish) has hurt coastal coho populations rather than helped them," scientists concluded.

· Scientists put hatchery-spawned fish, naturally spawned fish and hatchery-wild crosses in four streams and in a hatchery pond along Oregon's Deschutes River. The hatchery fish did fine in the pond, but did not survive as well in three of the four streams. "It indicates a genetic difference," said Reg Reisenbichler, a scientist at the U.S. Geological Survey who headed the study.

· A review of more than 300 attempts to use hatchery fish to rebuild wild runs found that only 25 were successful and concluded, "The closer the hatchery stock is genetically to the natural stock, the higher the chances for success."

· Once they are set free, hatchery fish are not as good at producing offspring as are wild fish. A study in Washington's Kalama River showed that the success of hatchery steelhead in producing offspring was only 15 to 28 percent that of wild fish. "Somewhere between the time they left the river and the time they came back as adults, they didn't cut the mustard," said Hulett of WDFW, one of the researchers involved.

Citing studies such as these, NMFS scientists decided in the early 1990s that protections for hatchery fish under the Endangered Species Act "should be viewed as a temporary measure, to be held to the minimum necessary for recovery."

The idea, said NMFS geneticist Robin Waples, a key architect of the policy, was to protect as many of the varied genetic codes as possible.

"We felt, biologically, this was reasonable," Waples said. "We're not trying to predict which populations are going to be important in the future, because we'd probably get that wrong. If you save a diverse array of these, the species has a much better chance of surviving into the future."

Tribes want to use hatcheries as a "bridge" to a time when naturally spawning salmon populations can again sustain themselves. But first ecosystems will have to be repaired from the logging, dredging, damming and other insults salmon populations have suffered, they say.

Don Sampson, director of the tribal fish commission, accuses NMFS of misinterpreting the Endangered Species Act in trying to create a master race of wild fish -- "Aryan management," he once called NMFS' policy.

He also accuses NMFS of doing little to help salmon recover -- failing, for example, to order the dismantling of four dams on the Snake River.

"We ought to figure out as a scientific community in the Northwest how best to make these fish as natural as possible and integrate them with the wild populations," Sampson said. "Hatcheries ought to be used for a period of time. If that is 25 to 50 years so that wild populations can sustain themselves and survive, then we ought to plan to use hatcheries to get us through this bottleneck of mortality."

Advocates of hatcheries say disease can be controlled. Native wild fish can be taken annually to revitalize the genetic pool. Natural foods and more-natural water conditions can be employed.

"We're still paying for past sins in a system that has largely reconfigured itself and continues to reconfigure itself and will continue to reconfigure itself," said Jeff Koenings, director of the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife.







--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

P-I reporter Robert McClure can be reached at 206-448-8092 or robertmcclure@seattlepi.com
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Old 11-12-2001, 09:55 AM   #16
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Default Re: Judge Hogan keeps fish de-listed

In all of the debate over wild vs hatchery fish, no one has ever been able to answer my very simple, basic question.

If hatchery fish produce strong, viable offspring which can go forward and propogate the species, why do we have to keep dumping them in our systems each year?

Don't try to tell me it is because we destroy all of the returning hatchery fish. This is not a fact.

As many have pointed out, we have been dumping hatchery fish into our systems for years yet we have to keep dumping them in or we would never have large returning runs as we do this year.

I think our energy is misguided arguing over the genetics. The fact is, our hatcheries are not producing self propogating populations of anadromous fish. Period.
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Old 11-12-2001, 11:39 PM   #17
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Default Re: Judge Hogan keeps fish de-listed

Straydog, Well said.

If you consider the billions and billions of dollars spent on hatcheries, and then look at the result -- which is where we are at today and which you aptly described -- it is fair to characterize them as the greatest failed biological experiment of all time.

Of course, much of the hatchery experiment has been operated as a shell game -- "we'll screw up this river and give them a hatchery in return". Which is why despoilers like logging companies and the Army Corp of Engineers, and property rights groups that desire no curbs on how people can muck up a stream are such passionate supporters of hatcheries.
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Old 11-13-2001, 08:46 PM   #18
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Default Re: Judge Hogan keeps fish de-listed

Great post Fishaholic! I'd love to see some of the arguments from the other side that temper what was said as well though.

And StrayDog, I'm not dense, but I don't get your question. Has anyone ever claimed that the point of hatcheries was to produce self-propagating runs? In my understanding that has never been the purpose of a hatchery. Rather it was to ensure and maintain a supply of returning fish - not that I know much about it. Given poor ocean conditions, commercial netting, and destruction of spawning habitat, etc would wild runs do any better? Sure they might on some streams but there are many streams without hatcheries that struggle along with their small wild runs.

Is protecting wild runs in their river of origin going to ensure lasting, healthy runs or are there larger issues that have to be addressed at the same time such as commercial netting and dams? I don't know, just thinking out loud about a very frustrating subject. I like catching fish and somehow I don't think there will be many around to catch if we do away with hatcheries without taking significant measures in other areas as well.
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Old 11-13-2001, 08:57 PM   #19
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Default Re: Judge Hogan keeps fish de-listed

My question is a result of the debate of hatchery vs wild fish. Some say the hatchery fish are just as fit as wild fish and left to spawn will repopulate the rivers. I say why haven't they to date if that were true?

As for the other issues you mention, yes, they certainly are part of the equation and need to be dealt with as well.

Trying to prioritize or say one issue is larger than the other is unwise in my mind.

We must tackle all of the issues that we possibly can and realize that each and every river basin and it's particular circumstances are unique and should be approached in that manner.
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Old 11-13-2001, 09:12 PM   #20
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Default Re: Judge Hogan keeps fish de-listed

All this debate over wild versus hatchery is rearrainging the deck chairs on the Titanic. When the habitat is gone, and with unchecked logging etc, it soon will be, the salmon will be gone also.

When will we start taking care of the planet? Never. We will continue to **** it for profit until it fights back and eliminates us like the vermin that we are.
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Old 11-13-2001, 09:54 PM   #21
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Default Re: Judge Hogan keeps fish de-listed

In this debate over wild fish versus hatchery fish there are many variables and interests on both sides of the coin. I have been reading pieces on this subject and have some issues that possibly could be addressed here in a fishermans point of view. I am for conserving the wild fish but I also think somehow there can be a balance to provide fishermen with fish to enjoy the sport of fishing.

I don't think by preserving the wild run of fish will allow fishermen the pleasure and opportunity to catch fish. This is a sport and hobby many people enjoy and is passed on through generations. I enjoy taking my children on fishing trips to have the experience of fishing for native fish (not necessiarly meaning wild) on rivers and to have the outdoors culture impressed upon them. On this side of the coin, I support hatcheries from this position only so our growing populations can enjoy the benefits of catching fish. Without hatchery fish, many rivers would not have sustainable runs to attract people to a particular area. Remember, the people who come to fish also spend dollars in most cases at the local areas for many of the essential and non essential items thus supporting the local economy. Many small businessness depend on this type of traffic which the business contributes to the overall economy by providing jobs, paying taxes and supporting their community in various venues.

On the other side of the coin, we have the wild fish populations which have been around for many, many years. Is it right to fish them to extinction? I don't think it is from an environmentalist viewpoint. I appreciate the wild fish runs deeply but the reality is, there has been possibly irreplaceable damage done in connection with population growth. Who is responsible for this? Does the overall public want to sacrifice growth for fish runs? Is preserving these runs a heritage issue or does it really address the issues of today? What are the social and economic repercussions associated with the preservation of selected runs in a geographic area? What is the future strategic plan to address these issues, not just short term but also long term? These are just a few of the questions I have regarding the issue of preserving wild runs of fish. Some of the answers are addressed in the Oregon Plan (thanks Pete) but not all.

I have read several pieces regarding the science of the difference between wild fish and hatchery fish. I have not read conclusive evidence there is such an argument. I am a fisherman and I know I can physcially tell the difference between a hatchery fish versus a wild fish but I don't know the DNA makeup of each one. I know there are differences in the rearing of smolts, but have read interesting statements regarding this issue. I believe interbreding of a species produces flaws by the basic notion of having a slight DNA "miscue" will produce an inferior product. I don't believe all fish are checked for their DNA composition and it's assumed a hatchery fish is a hatchery fish but didn't hatchery fish originate from "wild" fish. Many issues are left on the table regarding the genetic differences between fish which is how Judge Hogan was able to identify a weakness in the available science. I am not a supporter for Judge Hogan but I see where the NMFS may have overlooked an important detail.

There also seems to be far too many bureaucratic agency involved in the wild and hatchery fish issues. Of course, we live in an era of special interest and the ones with the most funds have the loudest voices. I believe society has outlived the special interest groups of past and is becoming increasingly aware of the polictics and how they control the issues. Just look at the ODFW, NMFS and the state commission. Are they fairly represented to address constituants concerns?

There are serious issues affecting the NW fisheries which many have been posted. I have only touched the surface and could ramble on in further issues and depth on these subjects. The main points I wanted to bring out is there are two sides and far to much imbalance between sport fishermen and conservationalist and maybe through this media, ideas could be generated and passed on to the decision makers. We need less government and a louder voice which only the fishermen can provide.
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