What is patriotism? N.F.R.

[Pilar]

Listening to the radio this morning I heard something worth repeating.

How many of you are wearing pins, flying flags or otherwise chanting USA, USA, USA all day long?

That's all good but there is another thing or two you could do. It's pretty simple really. You could change your life and donate a few years to the service of liberty or ... You could support a family friend that is in the military service with letters, email or phone calls .. or ..You could register and vote. Yes, vote.

There are a few places with names ending in 'Stan where the people don't vote or can't. They have little or no say in thier government. In this country, blood was shed to enable common people to participate in democracy. We wave the flag at the world but we should walk our talk. Yes, I know it's just a boring levy or midterm local election. Do it anyway, get involved and be a patriot.

What do you think? Is there anything else we can do to be Patriotic?

[Tanner]

Pilar,
Amen.

I'm probably gonna get in trouble for this but oh well. This is so true.

>Dear God:
> >Why didn't you save the school children at . . .
> >a.. Moses Lake, Washington 2/2/96
> >b.. Bethel, Alaska 2/19/97
> >c.. Pearl, Mississippi 10/1/97
> >d.. West Paducah, Kentucky 12/1/97
> >e.. Stamps, Arkansas 12/15/97
> >f.. Jonesboro, Arkansas 3/24/98
> >g.. Edinboro, Pennsylvania 4/24/98
> >h.. Fayetteville, Tennessee 5/19/98
> >i.. Springfield, Oregon 5/21/98
> >j.. Richmond, Virginia 6/15/98
> >k.. Littleton, Colorado 4/20/99
> >l.. Taber, Alberta, Canada 5/28/99
> >m.. Conyers, Georgia 5/20/99
> >n.. Deming, New Mexico 11/19/99
> >o.. Fort Gibson, Oklahoma 12/6/99
> >p.. Santee, California 3/5/01 and
> >q.. El Cajon, California 3/22/01?
> >
> >Sincerely,
> >Concerned Student


Dear Concerned Student:

I am not allowed in schools.

Sincerely,
God


Let's see, I think it started when Madeline Murray O'Hare complained she didn't want any prayer in our schools.

And we said, OK...

Then, someone said you better not read the Bible in school, the Bible that says
"thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, and love your neighbors as yourself,"

And we said, OK...


Dr. Benjamin Spock said we shouldn't spank our children when they misbehave because their little personalities would be warped and we might damage their self-esteem.

And we said, an expert should know what he's talking about so we won't spank them anymore...

Then someone said teachers and principals better not discipline our children when they misbehave. And the school administrators said no faculty member in this school better touch a student when they misbehave because we don't want any bad publicity, and we surely don't want to be sued.

And we accepted their reasoning...

Then someone said, let's let our daughters have abortions if they want, and they won't even have to tell their parents.

And we said, that's a grand idea...

Then some wise school board member said, since boys will be boys and they're going to do it anyway, let's give our sons all the condoms they want, so they can have all the fun they desire, and we won't have to tell their parents they got them at school.

And we said, that's another great idea...

Then some of our top elected officials said it doesn't matter what we do in private as long as we do our jobs.

And we said, it doesn't matter what anybody including the President does in private as long as we have jobs and the economy is good...

And someone else took that appreciation a step further and published pictures of nude children and then stepped further still by making them available on the Internet.

And we said, everyone's entitled to free speech...


And the entertainment industry said, let's make TV shows and movies
that promote profanity, violence and illicit sex... And let's record
music that encourages ****, drugs, murder, suicide, and satanic themes...

And we said, it's just entertainment and it has no adverse effect and
nobody takes it seriously anyway, so go right ahead...

Now we're asking ourselves why our children have no conscience, why they don't know right from wrong, and why it doesn't bother them to kill strangers, classmates or even themselves.

Undoubtedly, if we thought about it long and hard enough, we could
figure it out. I'm sure it has a great deal to do with...

"WE REAP WHAT WE SOW"

Pass it on if you think it has merit! If not then just discard it...but if you discard this thought process, then don't you dare sit back and complain about what bad shape this world is in...

[ 11-01-2001: Message edited by: Tanner ]

[DanS]

Oh, I can complain about the shape the world is in all I want, without buying into the "reasons" given in your post. That's because I'm an American.

It might do folks good to realize that THEIR faith does NOT make them any more or less an American than any Buddhist, Muslim, or atheist that calls America "home".

If you want to judge somebody based on whether or not they share your faith, that's your business. But when you question their patriotism based on their faith, or lack of, then you're stepping over the line.

[Thumper]

Tanner --- A most thoughtful post. Thanks.

[Tanner]

Not judging anyone by their faith just pointing out what has happened to this country since it started tearing down the foundations it was built on.

I would really like to know how you got the idea that anybody in particulars faith was being judged by what I posted.

All I was doing was passing along something I received that really made me think about where we are at. I thought it fit quite well with Pilar's idea of walking our talk. We are the greatest, strongest nation in the world. For God's sake (and our kid's) let's start acting like it.

But I guess all this just makes me a closed minded biggot. All because I want what, since it's conception, has been best for our country.

[WheresMyBobber]

Wow Tanner, it sounds like you have some problems with living in a free society. Maybe your post belongs on a "Parental Responsibilities" thread, not one having to do with patriotism. JMO

Pilar, I agree that voting is a right that is taken for granted by many in this country. I've looked at the voter registrations for a group that I represent, and it's amazing how many of them aren't even Registered to vote.

Another patriotic thing in my opinion is actually learning how the political process works so you can voice your opinions in ways other than voting. I talk to a lot of people with strong opinions about our government who don't understand how it actually works.

How many peole actually know who their Senators and Representative are? Who knows how to contact them? How many people have actually called and talked to them?

Good non fishing topic.

[Pilar]

Good, you guys are thinking again.

One of the curious side effects of our system of civilization is that the weight given different points of view is related to the money spent promoting it and/or the noise the promoters can make.

This allows dedicated individuals and groups to push their point of view beyond their scope of representation or apparent influence. If the rest of us are apathetic come voting time then they can do this rather easily.

Religion or not. Doctor Spock or not. Political correctness or not. The more involved groups and individuals get their say over the majority of us who are silent or absent on election day.

Get involved!

[DanS]

Tanner,

It's in your first post, right there for everyone to see. It smacks of the same comments that Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell made about the bombings. They blamed it all on NOW, the ACLU, "pornographers", humanists, Planned Parenthood and anyone else who doesn't share their brand of Christianity. It was a bush league move then, and I think it still is.

You want to know whose fault it is? It's Bin Laden and his terrorist pals' fault. Why would you want to put the blame elsewhere?

[rob allen]

An often Overlooked way to be patriotic that has real meaning for Americans... Buy products when you can that are made and assembled in the USA..

Instead of saving yourself a couple bucks by shopping at walmart head downtown and spend your monry in a mom and pop store (if you can find one)
For a fishermen that means buy your gear down at the guide shop not gijoes. Though gi joes is better than walmart :blush: )

always carry jumper cables and a tow strap and go out of your way to use them in service to others. Our Millitary folk didn't go fight on foreign soil so that Americans could be rude to eachother,

There is nothing more patriotic then helping your fellow Americans

[Phish_on]

I can explain the separation of church & state issue in one word, it's:

Taliban

'nuff said?

My patriotism manifests itself in showing up at legislative hearings and city council meetings and tellin' 'em "the way it is" - or writing a letter to congresscritters or the town newsrag, or ifish ...

and trying to provoke my apathetic neighbors to do the same.

[Lives_to_fish]

Wow, you guys are in deep, Great!
A few things I would like us to keep in mind, we have the freedom of religion, not freedom from religion. As far as I know, all the great and wise Forefathers that created the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution based their beliefs on their own experiences. From all appearances, each and every word was carefully considered; I don’t think the references to God were accidental.
I heard something on the radio today that I thought was interesting. Of the 56 countries that make up the Arab League of Nations, not one is a democracy. (Hmm)
We do have a right to believe what ever it is each and every one of us wants to believe, However I can’t imagine anyone wanting to do away with the phrase, “God Bless America”, when it got us this far.

[Tanner]

Dan S.,
I agree with you wholeheartedly. The breaking down of our intelligence started when Carter took away the CIA's "License to Kill". But talk to anyone who served in the military when Clinton started making the cut backs. Everyone I know who was in the military then was extremely demoralized because all of a sudden you had one person doing the jobs of two or three.

My original post in this thread was not intended to blame anyone for the attack on our nation. I merely posted it because it really made me think and I wanted to share it with my friends at ifish.

We are definitely all entitled to our opinion. That is the beauty of being Americans.

By the way, I am a Christian and I think Falwell and Robertson were complete idiots for saying what they said after the attack. I don't totally disagree with the content of what they said, but their timing was not very well thought out.

Now, WHERE'S THE FISH?

[FM2]

There is a prominent issue that does stand out in these posts. The issue that our world and country continues to get worse and worse, not better.

The recent events has brought out patriotism in a renewed spirit. I find this interesting to see and hear "God Bless America" in a way that is encouraging. I also find this interesting how when in a crisis who's name comes to the front..GOD. Generations have seen the deteriation of our world which fulfills biblical prophecy which I believe cannot be ignored. It doesn't matter what religion you are or even if you believe in God or not, all a person has to do is pick up the bible and read the master plan laid out by God then look around.

I believe if this county would go back to biblical values as laid out by our founding fathers, much of the discourse this country is on could change. Did you know in the early years of Congress, a person when sworn in had to publically announce they are a believer! Even today the bible is used to swear in people because of the foundational basis of this country and strong values the bible represents. I for one am grateful we have a President who has strong Faith and is publically not afraid to admit it.

Unfortunately, the reality is Satan is also at work to debunk all that represents good. Many live in a world view society which says "look out for #1, If it feels good do it" so if something feels good, it must be right. If you feel bad about your situations or relationships, get out of them. People have become seperated from the good by free will so if I don't like something I will just get rid of it! This is a product of sin.

Tanner has made very valid points in his posts but as he stated, "he will probably get in trouble" for his post. I want to say, Amen brother! Thanks for not being politically correct and conform to world views. We are all one but unfortunately evil exists which causes separation.

I too may experience heat for my position but my belief is Faith based which includes Patriotism.

May God bless this Nation and all who dwell in it.

[DanS]

Good enough for me, Tanner.

Looks like the fish are everywhere......just need to find fishable water and HOLD ON! :grin:

[dawhunt]

I served 4 yrs in the Air force and was fortunate enought to be able to do a lot of traveling.I've been to Europe and the Far east and no where that I've been have the people had the freedom to do what we can do.Our options are unlimited.We can go where we want when we want,we can do just about anything we want to do.We can own guns and hunt,we can fish,we can live the way we want with a little hard work , we can live very well,some of the best education in the world is there for the asking all it takes is the want and hard work to accomplish it.I really don't believe there is any place in the world that has the freedom we do.
I feel very fortunate to have been born an American and would proudly die in her defense.
Bob Dawson :grin:

[scrod]

How about we take a kid or two fishing? Maybe not even our kids, (not again, Dad) but those that don't get to fish. The best thing about this country is the will to help each other, right, (and the freedom to do so)? I know that many kids are scared and without a family member to offer some sense of security. Many of us have done the best we could in the service of our country and this is something applicable to what we do now. Not everyone here in your hometown is so fortunate or lucky to know a person with a boat/ rod and reel/ time to spend. Taking the time to spend on our own people is patriotic.

[Pilar]

For all you military guys and gals



Taliban supreme leader, Mullah Mohammed Omar:

"The situation where we are now, there are two things: either death or victory. To those who are fighting and bombarding us, they should understand the Afghan man is a fighter willing to die for Jihad"







[ 11-01-2001: Message edited by: Pilar ]</p>

[drillman]

An open letter to terrorist and those who harbor and support you.
&gt;From an American Grandfather.
I am told by the leaders of my government that you are intelligent
people. In light of your actions, I am having growing difficulty
believing that. At the very least, it has become increasingly obvious
that you lack a fundamental comprehension of my psychology as an
American. I hear on our news broadcasts that your rage is fueled by my
support of Israel.
It has never been about nationality or religious faith - never about Jew
vs. Arab. I thought you would finally have understood that when I sent
my children into harm's way in order to protect the innocent citizens of
Arab Kuwait from the savage wolf who would devour them for his own gain.
It has everything to do with the lessons taught to me by my father - and
his before him for many generations before the white man came to this
land we call America.
I have a vivid memory of coming home, as a boy of about nine years of
age, and telling my father of feeling helpless horror as I watched the
neighborhood bully unmercifully torment a boy even smaller than myself.
My father reflected for a long moment, then quietly inquired of me as to
what I had done about it. I said that I had watched until it was over
and had then come home. The look in his eyes penetrated me to my core
for he had never looked at me in that way before. He said that he was
deeply ashamed of me and he sent me to my room with instructions to
think about what had happened.
It seemed hours before he came to my door. He sat beside me on my bed
and, for a painfully long while, he said nothing. When finally he spoke,
he explained, "There will always be among us dishonorable men who are
devoid of humanity and compassion. They are but naked animals and an
empty shell of what truly is a man. They attempt to fill their emptiness
by the exercise of power over others, thinking that it makes them whole
men. Often they are enraged that they do not even understand their own
emptiness, what it is that they lack. When these men are also cowards,
they disguise themselves as sheep among the flock and attack from the
shadows. This is the vilest form of sub-human behavior for even animals
attack openly when they must attack.
When humanity and integrity are present in a man, he expresses them as
compassion. When compassion and strength achieve perfect balance within
a man, they manifest as wisdom. The compassionate man feels the pain of
others. The wise man protects others from pain. For, if you watch and do
nothing to protect others, who will come to your aide when you alone
remain and the bully comes for you?
Some things are far more important than your personal safety and freedom
from pain. If ever again you see someone being hurt, protect him, even
if you are certain to be injured in the process. Then I will know that I
have truly raised a man"
Anyone who understands the impact of this lesson - and how deeply it
runs in the man I have become, will understand my unflinching
willingness to sacrifice my children in defense of Arab and Jew alike
when they are threatened by the bullies and cowards of the world. And
please do not insult my intelligence with claims of Jewish treatment of
Palestinians. I am old enough to retain vivid memories of 1948.
I remember the excitement of the Jews over the prospect of governing
"with" them. Their reaction, and that of their neighbors, was to attempt
to finish what the ***** could not -Repeatedly Intelligent men?
I, for one, am stunned by the monumental stupidity of your arrogance.
Did you actually think that only Americans would occupy the World Trade
Center? You have but fired the first pitiful salvo of World War III for
the entire world is now preparing to come after you, your host, your
financiers and your supporters. And please, do not listen to what I say.
You would do far better to watch the sky.
I must say that I owe you a profound debt of gratitude. Not for what you
have done or what you have unleashed upon the world, but for what you
have accomplished. For not one among us could have accomplished it.
On Monday, September 10, 2001, we were a divisive, apathetic nation. Our
young people had nothing by which to identify with our history or
heritage; our people were divided by factions of religion and skin
color; our government was polarized and paralyzed by political party
affiliation, able to agree upon nothing; the military had difficulty
obtaining volunteers and most of us simply changed TV channels in
response to Red Cross pleas for blood donations.
Your actions have changed all of that in a way that has occurred only
twice before in the history of this nation - once in 1776 and again on
December 7, 1941. The worst in the worst of Allah's children has brought
out the best in the best of Allah's children and, for this, I thank you.
Since your cowardly act, Muslim, Jew, Christian, black, white, yellow
and brown have stood shoulder to shoulder for hours in the hot sun to
donate blood for the injured. Our government has suddenly become totally
united in its purpose. Our military is having difficulty handling the
flood of volunteers from among our young people. Our flag makers report
that there is no way humanly possible that they can keep up with the
demand - shipments are sold out within minutes. You have accomplished a
miracle that only God could have anticipated.
And, it would seem, the hand of God was present even in the date that
you selected for your attack, for you could not have chosen a date more
in keeping with a reawakening of American pride and purpose. There is in
America a nationwide system for seeking help in times of emergency.
Every American knows that, when threatened, he can pick up any telephone
and dial 911 and help is immediately on the way to assist and protect
him. By selecting September, (our 9th month), 11, 2001 to exhibit your
cowardice, you unwittingly placed a 911 call that has brought all of
America together in a way that brings tears of joy and pride to my
eyes. No longer is our battle cry, "Remember Pearl Harbor!" Thanks to
you and your kind it will now and forevermore be, "Remember 911!"
whenever the innocents of any nation find themselves threatened by
cowards with guns.
I do not, for a moment, deny that you hurt me. Far too many parents and
children now go to bed wondering where their loved ones are. And, yes, I
am momentarily reeling. But it is from the sudden realization that I
share the planet with anyone capable of such an atrocity against the
humanity of so
many nations.
In his Inaugural Address in Washington, D.C. on January 20, 1961,
President John F. Kennedy said, "Let every nation know, whether it
wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden,
meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the
survival and the success of liberty." He was talking about the liberty
of all men, of all faiths, of all nations.
You need to understand that the truth of that statement is the very
fabric of who and what I am. I wish neither to rule nor to inflict
injury upon the innocents of any nation. I am the lion who sleeps with
God's lambs to protect them from ravenous wolves that would devour them.
Your 911 call has awakened the lion and now I hunger for the flesh of
wolves.
In closing let me state, Muhammad taught that Allah is a God of love -
yet you have the unmitigated gall to bastardize Islam to suit your own
personal, & unholy agenda. Who now is the infidel?
Sincerely,
The Reverend Charles Stanley
121 Windemere Drive
H252-426-383
0ertford, North Carolina, USA

[Tanner]

DanS,
You're totally right. It is Bin Laden and his cronies fuault. It is also our fault for dropping our guard and putting up with 8 years of leadership that tore down our country's military defense, and intelligence system. Look at everything that administration stood for. Remember, "Character doesn't matter". Well it looks to me that in the end character matters. Having that man as president for 8 years really shows how far this country's standards had dropped.

I just read over my first post again and in no way did I ever connect what I posted with what happened on Sept, 11th. I was just posting something that really made me think.

WMB,
I have no problem living in a free society. As long as that free society allows my kids to pray or talk about their faith in school. After all, other kids have no problem talking about what was on South Park the night before. Freedom of speech should go 360 degrees.

DanS.
By the way, speaking of our renewed Patriotism and the ACLU. Did you know that right now they are running a campaign to disallow the phrase God Bless America in our schools. If you don't believe me check the American Center for Law and Justice's website. Yep, that's the kind of people I want fighting for my civil liberties.

[ 11-01-2001: Message edited by: Tanner ]

[ 11-01-2001: Message edited by: Tanner ]</p>

[DanS]

Tanner,

Remember also that our lack of intelligence gathering in the Middle East began WAY before the Clinton administration. Of course, Bill and Co. continued down the path blindly. However, that's why they say hindsight is 20/20.

Don't get me wrong, I am not defending the actions of the ACLU. I am saying it is lame to blame them in any way for the Sept. 11 attacks.

If we stand together as Americans with our brothers of every race, religion, creed, and color, we will remain strong. If we blame our fellow Americans for the attacks, no matter why, we are weakening our country.

UNITED WE STAND............GOD BLESS AMERICA!

[happybrew]

Tanner: you rock!

Dan S: Christians don't want to cram their religion down your throat, the Taliban does. Christians just want to be able to live their faith wherever they are, even if that happens to be in school. Compassion, honesty, integrity, humility, and love are not specifically Christian values, but Christians do preach them. I think Tanner's point was that in the effort to keep religion out of public life, we have also kept out many of the moral values that give our country strength, because those values are promoted by Christians. You are right that we can complain about the way things are without bringing up religious arguments. Christians welcome secular arguments pertaining to values, because they are valid and true. However, Christians believe that all truth comes from God, and thus we talk about these things from a religious standpoint. Whether we are talking about them from a religious or a secular standpoint, we are still talking about the same values, though. I saw nothing in Tanner's post about people who didn't believe in God being unpatriotic. He did, though, post about the decline in moral values in our country, and linked this to the decline in religious belief. He did not say, though, that anybody without religious beliefs is immoral.

WheresMyBobber: Patriotism and moral values go hand in hand. It is itself a moral value, and other moral values which promote the strength of our country thus become patriotic duties, as well as moral ones. Do you think that defense contractors bilking the people by overcharging and swindling are patriotic? I think not. They are greedy, and their lack of moral values is a reflection of where their patriotic loyalties lie: with their pocketbooks instead of with their country.

happybrew

[DanS]

happybrew,

Is there something stopping you or your kids from praying in school?

[happybrew]

No, Dan, there's nothing stopping me and my kids from praying in school as individuals. I don't know what the laws are in this state, because it hasn't been an issue for us. But in many states, students cannot pray in groups at school. The laws are all over the place on this. You can bet, though, that if we wanted to form a religious based club, we would be unable to. I don't think that this is necessarily bad, but I think that it's a bit unfair that groups advocating things that I wouldn't want my children to be exposed to can form school sponsored clubs.

When I was going to the University of Oregon, religious groups could form clubs off campus, and advertise in the student newspaper. Religious speakers could speak at the school. I took a class in religious studies where we studied the New Testament, not as part of any denomination or even religion, but as a historical document and a piece of literature. If the University promoted one group over another, that would clearly be wrong. It's not their job, and would be unfair for them to advocate for a particular group. I thought that the U of O did a good job of accomodating various groups without advocating any of them.

Would you find it offensive for a group of students of different religions being given space to pray as a group? It's not a loaded question. I just want to know what you think.

By the way, how's the fishing in Washington? My wife's grandad lives in Lacy. :smile:

Okay, NO MORE NON-FISHING POSTS FOR ME!!!! If I do it again, slap me on the wrist! Sometimes, I just can't resist the temptation. For my penance, I'll say two Our Fathers and two Hail Mary's. :smile:

[DanS]

hb,

No sir, I would not be offended in any way. Also, I believe a recent court ruling has confirmed that religious groups have as much right as any other group to use school facilities for gathering and praying after school hours as long as the school does not promote one group over another.

You are very well spoken, hb, and I'm glad to be able to discuss these issues with you. Feel free to use my email, that way I won't have to slap your wrists. :grin: :grin:

[FM2]

Here is a piece of information regarding religious groups on public school property taken from "A students right to pray and a mandate for schools to allow it" by Jay Sekulow of the ACLJ.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>The Supreme Court has also clearly established the right of students to organize and participate in Bible Clubs. In Board of Education of Westside Community Schools v. Mergens, 496 U.S. 226 (1990), the Court upheld the constitutionality of the Equal Access Act which allows Bible Clubs or Prayer Groups to meet on public school campuses. Congress enacted the Equal Access Act to cure pervasive anti-religious sentiment exhibited by public secondary schools in the aftermath of the Supreme Court's school prayer cases. "[T]he Act was intended to address perceived widespread discrimination against religious speech in public schools." Mergens, 496 U.S. at 239.

<hr></blockquote>

Hopefully this clarifys an issue. The entire article can be read on this link.


http://www.aclj.org/info/psp.asp

[sinker]

What gets me is how the religious right pushes for prayer in school.
In my opinion prayer has no place in school. If kids want to pray fine but don't make it a classroom activity.
When it gets to this point it encroaches on the freedom that we enjoy in this country.
If you want your kids to say a prayer as a class then step up pay the money and send them to a private school that suits your denomination.

Someone above said that christians don't force their religion down your throat. Then stay off my dang porch preaching. Quit trying to pass laws based on YOUR morals.
They sure shoved it down Larry Flynt's throat didn't they. Watch the movie on him. That man was railroaded big time. But the funny part was the highly moral holy rollin bible thumpers that railroaded him got nail in the savings and loan scandal. A few of them are still in the pen.
Yeah they're real ethical and should be deciding my morals for me...............

[ 11-03-2001: Message edited by: sinker ]</p>

[Thumper]

Noooo...nooooo Sinker.....no Thumpers were involved in that. Not us....no way....

[sinker]

Thumper,
I didn't mean to imply that all of Christianity was behind or involved in that. No group has that kind organization behind them. I also don't like to lump everyone into one group.

Sorry for venting there, I'm just tired of everyone passing laws based on their morals instead of what makes sense. If they want to live by those morals fine you live your life and I'll live mine. If you want moral laws, move to Utah, I've had several family members that did. :grin:

[sinker]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I don't totally disagree with the content of what they said, but their timing was not very well thought out. <hr></blockquote>

Tanner, you actually believe the smoke they were blowin out of their butts??

Jeez, I thought the nation wised up about those 2 idiots. They lie more than Clinton ever thought of.
I truly hated having Clinton in office. But what brought this to this country started about the time I was born I believe. Granted he didn't do a thing to stop it after so many incidents, but to blame this on him or the fact that we're an immoral country is ridiculous. There's a guy hidin in a dang cave with a towel on his head and an AK-47 on his lap that we should be directing our blame too.
I noticed how the religious organizations really jumped right on the bandwagon on this one. Kinda funny how quickly that faded away.

[Tanner]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> I'm just tired of everyone passing laws based on their morals instead of what makes sense. If they want to live by those morals fine you live your life and I'll live mine. <hr></blockquote>

Sinker,
What should laws be based on. Maybe someone's morals would say it's OK to rob you of everything you own and then take your life. well according to you if part of their belief system makes that right than it should be legal for them to do so. In some societies such actions make sense so it should be OK, right? Give me a break. Every idea of law that our founding fathers based this country on came straight out of the bible. The greatest book of truths ever. In fact, only two men that signed the US constitution were not Bible believing Christians and theologians.

Please Sinker, tell me what our laws should be based on. You said "not based on someones morals but what makes sense". Well what does make sense? What makes sense to one person doesn't always make sense to another. That is why mankind was given a set of standards to live by.

I have never crammed my faith down anyones throat, but I will certainly stand up for what I believe.

Again Sinker, please tell me what you think our laws should be based on.

[ 11-03-2001: Message edited by: Tanner ]</p>

[sinker]

Relating murder and robbery with stupid laws such as alcohol in Utah, or what I as an adult can see on the internet, or what my wife and I do behind closed doors is stretching it a bit.
I could care less about the 10 commandments, how about some laws based on basic respect for fellow human beings.

People always talk about the founding fathers and how this country was based on the bible. The founding fathers also didn't think twice about blasting any native americans either. They didn't think twice about stealing their land. Or winning them in the "Indian Wars". They didn't think twice about allowing the slaughter of buffalo.
They didn't think twice about owning slaves and and all the other horrible things involved in it.
They didn't think twice about torching the woods in New England to clear farmland. Many people condemn people in South America for doing this today.
Do you really think we should look to them for guidance??
I don't.
Times change and so should we.

[ 11-03-2001: Message edited by: sinker ]</p>