eyeFISH on fish eyes (PICS)

[eyeFISH]

A question was raised on the PP board earlier this week about the appearance of the eye in a fish pic. Many know that a down-rolled eye is a reliable sign that the fish is still alive and doing well. But is the straight-on deer-in-the-headlights stare that we see in other pics proof positive that the fish is as good as dead?

If you are curious, READ ON.....

The down-rolled eye we see in so many pictures is evidence that a fish is still neurologically intact. It happens because the brain is still trying to maintain the eye's natural position in space... by that I mean the top stays on top and the bottom stays on the bottom. All vertebrate eyes do this, including yours.

If you are having a conversation with a friend, and tilt your head back into a chin-up position, your eyes will naturally roll downward to maintain their position in space (ie looking at your friend). If you tilt your head to the left (like in Lund's pic in the new STS article) your eyes automatically tilt to the right in an attempt to keep the 12:00 meridian of the eye at 12:00 in space.

The same thing happens to a fish when you pose it for a pic. If the fish is maintained in a natural position in space( held perfectly horizontal, back up, belly down) then the eye will be looking straight out to the side, just like on a free-swimming fish. That straight-out stare does NOT mean it's dead. The best clue you have in this instance is that the pupil will still be very large and shaped like a big fat watermelon seed.

If however you tilt that fish off axis ( e.g. rolling the belly slightly toward the camera to accentuate the chrome snowbelly effect for the final pic) then the eye closest to the camera will appear to roll downward. It is simply trying to maintain its position in space. The opposite eye will actually be rolled upward by an identical amount. A little off-axis tilt, a bit of down-rolled eye... the greater the off-axis tilt, the more the eye rolls down.

If you take your pic with the fish laying completely on its side in the shallows, the down-rolled eye is VERY exaggerated. That's because the body is angled 90 degrees off its normal anatomical orientation. The eye will try to roll downward 90 degrees to compensate for the unnatural body position, appearing partially buried into the socket. If you could view the eye closest to the gravel, you would see that it is rolled upward in an equally exaggerated fashion. Again, the brain is just trying to keep the eyes oriented in space.


Make sense?

The following post will show some examples of just what I'm talking about.

[eyeFISH]

Here are some examples of what I am talking about. These are ALL live fish:

Fish posed in normal orientation... eye looks straight






Fish posed with belly tilted slightly toward the camera... eye rolls down slightly





Fish posed laying on its side in the shallows.... VERY exaggerated down-rolled eye

[chrome obsession]

Great info, thanks for sharing..

[Nonates Buckheninigloo]

Makes sense

Thanks for the reading.

[scudrunner]

Great info. Of course, this could ruin me for looking at pictures from here on out... it will be like learning that Radar's (from MASH) left had is malformed and almost never visible... you won't be able to watch MASH or look at a fish picture the same again...

On another note, isn't it interesting how on some days the most ugly plug from our/my perspective, is the one the fish hit on... i.e. the purple plug...

Thanks again,

[eyeFISH]

Originally Posted by scudrunner

On another note, isn't it interesting how on some days the most ugly plug from our/my perspective, is the one the fish hit on... i.e. the purple plug...

Don't knock that color, Ed. It's been a consistent producer in my boat ever since I started using it back in 1998. If you look carefully at the plug in the pic, you'll notice the black hash marks I've made with a Sharpie permanent pen. Let's just say that K16 is a swimmer.

[scudrunner]

Originally Posted by eyeFISH

marks I've made with a Sharpie permanent pen. Let's just say that K16 is a swimmer.

Gotta just love those "swimmers"! I used to "hash mark" my plugs, but then simply look for teeth marks...

There are not many things worse than snagging on the bottom with a good swimmer

I have also had good luck with the old purple/Chartreusse plug, particularly on those murky water days...

[Jim]

12+ years of schooling and you finally found a purpose for it!!

Just kidding eyefish, I actually enjoyed the mini tutorial!

Jim

Originally Posted by scudrunner

Gotta just love those "swimmers"! I used to "hash mark" my plugs, but then simply look for teeth marks...

There are not many things worse than snagging on the bottom with a good swimmer

I have also had good luck with the old purple/Chartreusse plug, particularly on those murky water days...

[Jacks or Better]

That was interested? Thanks. Gotta go get a purple/chart. now.

[swampy]

Appreciate that,Doc...thanks.

[roadsend]

Fascinating and informative. Learn something new every day, Thanks for the info, Doc.

[Fishrite]

Nice work Doc......pictures are great!!

[JustCallMeDave]

Do you realize how many future flame wars you've totally just screwed up.

[ampersat]

I'm going to have some fun putting fish into odd positions and taking pics prior to the smackdown.

[eyeFISH]

Originally Posted by JustCallMeDave

Do you realize how many future flame wars you've totally just screwed up.

Funny you should mention it.... that's how the whole conversation originally got started.

[steelies_R_US]

What are those orange round things....................I didn't know you use them in alaska ??

[eyeFISH]

Just for contrast, here's pic of a freshly bonked 10# dink...



This brain-dead fish is laying completely on its side, and as would be expected, the brain is making ZERO attempt to roll the eye into its normal position in space. All you get is the blank lifeless stare. Also note how small and round the pupil is in the pic above. That's another reliable indicator of a brain-dead fish.

A still-living fish will have a very large pupil that is very slightly angular rather than being perfectly round. Kind of looks similar to a fat watermelon seed, like in the piercing stare of this VERY live king.



Both fish are staring out to the side, but there is a HUGE difference between the dead stare and the live stare.

[Fish Mode]

I'll take the bottom one to go please...thanks for sharing!

[SilverFly]

Doc, I'm starting to think you should seek some professional help for your chinook problem.

[PapaHog]

Good information Doc. Great pictures. Thanks.

[cotalot]

If an eye doctor can't see doing anything but fishing, is it a vision problem? And if that's what he can't see, who does he go see? And if you have a sea problem finding exactly where you want to position your boat, is there a doctor you can go see, to restore your site?

"Ok Cotalot, that's enough, it's time to let it go, OK?" ... "Si"

Great pics Doc, thanks!

[Super Fluke]

thanks for the info, that's pretty cool.

[Joe Schwab]

Originally Posted by eyeFISH

Don't knock that color, Ed. It's been a consistent producer in my boat ever since I started using it back in 1998. If you look carefully at the plug in the pic, you'll notice the black hash marks I've made with a Sharpie permanent pen. Let's just say that K16 is a swimmer.

Notice in the upper picture, Doc is leaning slightly to his left yet his eyes are level and straight ahead! Doc, you have way too much time on your hands. Great info!

[Streamside Steve]

That is great info... Ya, You can pick out that lifeless stare... the luster/life is gone. The "Natural Horizon" info you are sharing though I find very interesting. I never thought much about it, but as soon as I read this post, I knew you nailed it. Very cool.

[jordanb38]

nice reading. another page for the Ifish Ibrary

[jeffrey.m]

Eyefish... Cool info on fishies... I was wondering if you knew what the fishes chances were on carrying out there dutys if you accidently pierce an eye. I nailed one the other day with a 1/0 siwash and couldn't help but wonder how the fishes quality of life was going to be affected. Any insight would be helpful...No pun intended.

[NWaddict]

This makes a lot of sense and will definately change the way I judge photos. It especially makes sense when I think of how often fish that I photo or hold for a photo are always have their back tilted away from the camera. I'm about 6'6" and many of my friends and my dad are all around that height so usually the guy taking the photo is much higher than the guy posing, thus the fish must be tilted back to get a full broad side shot.

Here is a pic of a 32" trout caught by a client in alaska a couple years ago. A lot of people that have seen it have given me the treatment about how its eye looks. It kinda upset me a little because it does look kinda dead, but it swam off like a rocket after being landed in a rubber net and quickly released after a few photos.



After reading this i realize that because we were standing on shore and the client shooting the pic was in the water kneeling down I was able to hold the fish straight up and down, thus the straight eye.

Thanks a lot for the explanation doc.

Dominic

[eyeFISH]

Originally Posted by jeffrey.m

Eyefish... Cool info on fishies... I was wondering if you knew what the fishes chances were on carrying out there dutys if you accidently pierce an eye. I nailed one the other day with a 1/0 siwash and couldn't help but wonder how the fishes quality of life was going to be affected. Any insight would be helpful...No pun intended.

In the H&R study on Kenai kings, hooking a fish in the eye was identified as a "vital hooking wound". These were hooking wounds that greatly increased the release mortality... eye, gill, tongue.

The reason a penetrating eye wound is so nasty is because the vitreous (clear jelly-like filling) is a perfect medium for growing bacteria. So is the soft tissue in the eye socket. From there, an infection can readily track into the brain along the optic nerve. Once encephalitis sets in, the fish is a goner.

That's not to say they all die. Lord knows there are plenty of one-eyed rainbows swimming around in most of Alaska's trophy trout waters.

For a critter making it's final spawning run (salmon) surviving an eye wound in its final weeks would still allow it to spawn successfully. But for other critters that would otherwise live longer ( trout, steelhead) running around blind in one eye is a distinct survival disadvantage... makes it a lot tougher to be a good predator when you need to chase down your next meal. Also makes it tough to evade bigger predators when you can't see half the world around you.

[Hogmaster]

Originally Posted by eyeFISH

The down-rolled eye we see in so many pictures is evidence that a fish is still neurologically intact. It happens because the brain is still trying to maintain the eye's natural position in space... by that I mean the top stays on top and the bottom stays on the bottom. All vertebrate eyes do this, including yours.

Unless...






Didn't get a good look at the other eye though...

[Hogmaster]

Originally Posted by eyeFISH

The down-rolled eye we see in so many pictures is evidence that a fish is still neurologically intact. It happens because the brain is still trying to maintain the eye's natural position in space... by that I mean the top stays on top and the bottom stays on the bottom. All vertebrate eyes do this, including yours.

Unless...




It was still alive in this shot.




Didn't get a good look at the other eye though...

[Hogmaster]

Also, remember that schooling fish do look up (to read)

[spinnerweeny]

This was one interesting post that caught my attention. Then I totally got "Mash" ruined Tell me it aint so Auntie Em. Not little Radar

[Dave G]

Thanks, that is some good stuff.

[Hogmaster]

Originally Posted by eyeFISH

Just for contrast, here's pic of a freshly bonked 10# dink...



This brain-dead fish is laying completely on its side, and as would be expected, the brain is making ZERO attempt to roll the eye into its normal position in space. All you get is the blank lifeless stare. Also note how small and round the pupil is in the pic above. That's another reliable indicator of a brain-dead fish.

Looks like a lot of my classmates in that 7 AM freshman calculus class fall term of college looked...

Yep, brain-dead allright!

[eyeFISH]

Originally Posted by steelies_R_US

What are those orange round things....................I didn't know you use them in alaska ??

Those are ESB's... and no, not the Red Hook type.

But they do work very well with red hooks... especially when laced with Amerman eggs.

E-verlasting
S-lip
B-obber

[RiverMan]

some interesting info......thank you.

[eyeFISH]

The discussion in the recent pig-pile thread has a lot of "Doubting Thomases" who are skeptical about the eye-position explanation.

If any of you out there own a copy of Fly Fishing for Salmon with Jim Teeny, cue up the clip of the last chum salmon being caught and released. The typical down-rolled eye that we all see in pics will be revealed... BUT... you will also see an underwater view of an up-turned eye on the opposite side. This is the only readily available pic/vid evidence that demonstrates exactly what I'm talking about.

In fact as the axis of the fish is rotated during the underwater release sequence, you can see how the position of the eye changes to compensate for the un-natural position of the fish's head... from up-turned to down-turned and back again before going straight as the fish swims off.

Watching that vid for the very first time 12-plus years ago is when I finally figured out the mechanism for the ubiquitous down-rolled eye. I have personally validated it by observing the eyes of fresh-caught fish in my own hands. Try it for yourself the next time you catch a fish!