Marine Power 454 starter problems

new boat · 10-23-2001, 12:48 PM

Posted once before on this problem, still not resolved. I bought a new sled with a Marine Power 454, Hamilton 212 pump in January and have had starter problems with it ever since. Dealer replaced solenoid and starter switch, but still intermittent problem of no starter engagement. Will always work when shorted with a screw driver, but have been afraid to shut big motor off in the ocean!! Marine Power finally agreed to let another shop look at it, they sent me to Cook Engine in Portland, Cook agreed to look, removed and disassembled the starter and found it to be full of rust and corrosion and Marine Power would not warranty the repair. This boat has been stored inside and never have I had more than a few cups of water in the bilge, so not sure where the water is coming from, especially when you consider the starter is sealed, with the only opening into the flywheel area. Upon speaking with Marine Power, both in Idaho and Tennessee where they are based, they state they have had some problems, but their warranty excluded water and corrosion, so keep the boat dry. RIGHT!!! So, I paid Cook for their minimum 1 hour charge, to remove two bolts and two wires and bucked up and bought a new starter. Guess what? Same problem, intermittent engagement of starter. Marine Power states it is not their issue. Prior to this boat had an 1989 Whitewater with a FORD engine. Ran fine everytime. No more Marine Power for me. But, I own the boat, like the boat, the engine runs fine when it starts, so I have got to try to solve this one. I leave the engine compartment open when the boat is stored to give it every chance to dry, but I am out of ideas. Anyone got any suggestions? Would really appreciate it!! [img]images/icons/mad.gif[/img] [img]images/icons/mad.gif[/img] [img]images/icons/mad.gif[/img]

Salmonator · 10-23-2001, 01:26 PM

try running a new wire between the switch and the starter. Maybe a break or short in the original wire? I know, really reaching here

Predator Dawg · 10-23-2001, 01:33 PM

Sure sounds like your switch is shorted/cracked, etc. or you have a wire short like Salmonator stated. If you can jump it with a screwdriver and both starters have the same issue, it is starting to sound more like a TJ issue than a marine power issue.

Pilar · 10-23-2001, 01:55 PM

There's more to it than that. Exactly what happens when it 'Wont Start'. Do you get a click and no start or no sound at all?

I've had a similar problem and it was all about ground wires. The switch is one side of the circuit but if the ground is bad it still wont work.

Also if the neg battery cable does not have a good connection to the engine block, the starter may not crank. Check the power and start switch wiring from the + battery terminal to the - terminal. Somewhere in there is a bad connection.

Thumper · 10-23-2001, 02:04 PM

Gee maybe you should also delete the word "Proud" from your moniker. If you get nothing at all when you turn the key, take a big hammer (Thunderjet tune-up kit) and whale away on your starter, then turn the key again. I'm serious. Works for me.

Fish Hunter · 10-23-2001, 02:57 PM

Had a similar problem once. Battery terminals were dirty, first cleaned them but the problem remained. Chased my tail for a while. Finally resolved it when I replaced the + battery cable that was corroded more on the inside than anything. It cut down on the starting voltage.

Predator Dawg · 10-23-2001, 03:35 PM

Thumper,

Thats a stuck solenoid, hence the tapping with a hammer frees it just enough to let it kick out. Thats a different problem altogher.

The key here is he can jump it with a screwdriver. That tells you his power cable and ground are most likely fine. Somewhere between running power and ground to and from the switch hides the potential problem. I would look at the wires and switch. That or I have no clue what the heck I'm talking about [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img] which easily could be the case as well...

boater · 10-23-2001, 05:05 PM

ptd, you might call hough equipment in ballard and ask them about putting a top mount starter on your boat, chances are you have a condensation problem just like a buddy of mine "had" before he changed over. your starter gets hot, cold, hot, cold and is sealed exept where the starter drive comes out, forms condensation and rusts up. just my 2 total useless 2 cents worth. (ps, chances are your new started is already a hunk of rust) again, just my 2 useless cents worth.

Paranoid · 10-23-2001, 06:13 PM

I agree with Boater. I have a 20' sled with a Redline 460cu. The starter is mounted on the lower half of the motor. The shaft that the starter gear slides on gets a thin film of rust from condesation. Just a slight bit of resistance will keep the gear from meshing with the flywheel. After getting tired of taking my starter apart and cleaning all internal parts prior to fishing an area where instant starts are a must, I sanded the shaft and sprayed it and the gear with LPS rust inhibitor. I have tried WD40 and others. They did not work as well as the LPS. I have yet to experience the problem in over two months and 20 or so trips. This includes several trips in the salt.

whitewaterbill · 10-23-2001, 07:37 PM

If this engine starts up by contact at the starter like you said...Go to Salmonators suggestion. Starter switch or wire or connection from there. Check all of those connections.

Bill

new boat · 10-24-2001, 09:11 AM

Thanks everyone for the replies! Should have added that when the starter won't engage, the solenoid does as does the fuel pumps, you can hear the solenoid "click" and the pump run to bring pressure up to the fuel rail. I am going to pull my new starter to see if it is rusty, condensation may be the problem. I should also add that when it won't engage, I often can keep turning the ignition key to the start position and eventually it starts (most of the time). Back to condensation, how do you solve? I have sprayed corrosion block and WD 40 everywhere, more than once. My starter mounts low on the flywheel housing, do you have to change the rear housing to install the higher mount starter that was suggested? Again, thanks everyone for the suggestions. We will keep working on it.

Pilar · 10-24-2001, 09:27 AM

Proud TJ, Ah ha! Have you changed out the solenoid? They can corrode internally and even though you hear the click, nothing happens. I'm assuming you are talking about the 'ford' type solenoid that your switch is wired to.

Most marine setups have a separate solenoid from the starter. The coil that moves the switch in the solenoid is the last part to fail, the contacts are the first. This part has +12v on it at all times. So just like the + terminal on your battery it grows corrosion on all energized parts. There is no way to prevent this part from getting wet in a boat. Also the part must be explosion proof or "marine" rated to prevent a spark caused fuel vapor explosion. Don't use the cheaper automotive version. It's not spark proof.

I've had to replace mine 3 times now in two years. When you bust the old one open it is all green and corroded inside.

Son of an Okie · 10-24-2001, 09:28 AM

One thing I haven't seen here is to check out your starter relay. Could be a simple and inexpensive fix, unplug the old one and plug in a new. Worth a try.

Fishen Fool · 10-24-2001, 05:19 PM

You say that you use WD 40 , it is my understanding that while it may displace moisture, it is only temporary and actually will cause rust. It is a no no on guns for this reason.

boater · 10-24-2001, 05:47 PM

ptd, marine power offers a top rear mount starter as an option, call tham and see how much to change over

Tacklebuster · 10-24-2001, 07:13 PM

I know what you mean with starter problems. I also have a marine power and had starter problems that got me stranded in the Columbia. I think your problem is condensation and the WD-40 that is sprayed on it. Go down to an auto parts store and get a good silicone spray that displaces water permanetly and does not wash away very easily. I had to pull my starter and replace it after only 50 hours of operation when I bought my sled. Luckily my dealer gave me a new starter and it didn't cost me a dime. Spray it down with a good silicone spray and you should not have any problems if it is indeed due to moisture. I have had zero problems with it since. My starter is sealed but they tend to rust on the inside with no evidence growing on the outside due to the drastic temp changes they are constantly in. Just my two cents worth but it has paid off for me.

Paranoid · 10-24-2001, 11:31 PM

Check the starter shaft and gear. Sure sounds like the culprit to me. LPS rust inhibitor....it worked for me.

KrystalFlash · 10-25-2001, 02:02 AM

Ok.....Here's my .02:

I'd check the following:

1. ALL of the wiring. From the battery(s) to the switch. Auxillary wiring also.(both hot and common)
Pull off all of the connections and make sure that they are not rusted. If there is NOT shiny metal underneath the ground connections on the block, grind them or wire brush them and reconnect the wires. Check the wires for internal corrosion. (this is common) If they are corroded, replace them. Coat the connections with a waterproof cable guard corrosion inhibitor such as BCG.(Battery Cable Guard)- You can get this at most battery stores.
2. Check your starter switch.
3. Check the solenoid for corrosion. This will definately ruin your day. It doesn't sound like this is your problem though. I'd check it anyway.

As far as your corrosion problem goes, seawater can enter the bilge through your vent holes if you have any. We had a problem with seawater entering the engine housing through the cup holders on the engine cover when we washed down the engine cover. There are little drain holes in the cup holders that allow them to drain...guess where?.. Right into the engine compartment. It does not take very much salt water to corrode the connections in your starter/solenoid. Coat the connections on your starter with BCG also.

Hope this helps..

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Mofish · 10-29-2001, 09:53 AM

I have the same problem we need to talk.

I have a new 8,1 marine power motor in my new Motion Marine boat. Made 3 trips to the ocean and then it happened got to hamnond put boat in water and click. pulled start out and found the starter drive rusted I took it apart freed it up put it in and worked for the rest of the day. Got home and dropped in the river to run salt out and it was locked up again. I talked to marine power and got the same run around. Put a new start in it worked for the next two trips and then lost 4 push rods. Took the boat to cooks engine and got warrent on the push rods. I talked to jeff at cooks engine about my starter problem so he pulled the new starter out that I had put in not 1 week before the push rod problem and the starter drive on the new starter was also rusted. Cooks clean it and put it back in.

My motor starter is a top mount.

The problem???

On jet boats the engines set very low in the bilge the flywheel is only about 2.5 inch off the bottom of my boat and I was gettting some water in the bilge the flywheel is picking up the water and spaying the bell housing and the starter drive with water.

So I took the boat back to motion marine and they went with me to the river pulled all the covers and put it in the water found the leak at the transducer wire going into the back of the transom under the swim step. The silcon had come out was putting about a gallon every 1/2 hour in the boat. Keep in mind the blidge pump takes about 3 inchs of water for it to come on so by than its to late.

I don't know 100% if this will correct the problem but I have been praying hard that it does.

I give a big thanks to Jeff at Cooks marine and Motion marine for helping me get it fixed.

If you would like to talk more E-mail me at AQHACOOL@AOL.COM and we can talk more.

Motion Marine bought me a new starter and paid for the first replacement.

Mofish Todd