M1 Scout/Elk Load Suggestions

[Fishbulb]

Anyone have experience taking elk with and M1? Looking to either work up a handload or find some off the shelf stuff others may have had luck with. I have an adjustable gas plug so off the shelf stuff may be ok if it isn't too crazy.

[Don Fischer]

The Hornady book lists loads for the M1. I'd either use the 168gr data and substitute a 165gr bullet of use the 178 gr data and substite a 180 gr bullet. Just start a bit low and work up. Shouldn't be a problem. Don't know about the shell holder tho. Never loaded foe auto's and they may need a different shell holder. Can't remember what they call them, small base keeps running thru my head.

[baltz526]

how are you blocking the magazine to 5 shell capacity to make it legal for hunting

[Fishbulb]

Originally Posted by baltz526

how are you blocking the magazine to 5 shell capacity to make it legal for hunting

I have a 5 round enbloc clip already. It lets you hear the ping 3 rounds early.

[baltz526]

i have killed a lot of deer and elk with the 30-06 not a garand but any commercial 180gr ammo would be a good choice. i think i would go with remington due to the coreloc bullet has very little lead showing

[Fishbulb]

Simply using regular off the shelf 30-06 would be fine if it wasn't for the M1s gas system. I'd like to prevent a destroyed operating rod if I can help it.

Just looking for anyone that has maybe used factory rounds other than M2 ball or actually worked up a load they have had success with. Maybe in combination with an adjustable gas plug.

[baltz526]

destroy operating rod on a military battle rifle, using factory ammo. i seriously doubt that will happen, unreliable cycling due to differnt powder= lower pressure or bullet profile i can understand from factory ammo. reloading for your rifle i would choose 4 powders h414/w760 and h4350/imr4350 bullet profile is your biggest concern in my opinion. accubonds would by my choice most likely 165 grain. 54gr h414/w760 and magnum primers with the 165gr accubond is where i would start. crimped in canilure using lee crimper die

[Fishbulb]

From what I have read about M2 ball and the M1 rifle it seems that imr 4895 was specifically used for the M1 due to the powders slow burn rate and the the low pressure that then bleeds into the gas system for cycling. Powders that burn too fast and develop too much pressure can slam the op rod home with such force to actually bend it out of shape.

At least that is what I have read.

[otterduck1]

M two bits.....
Make it easy and by a quality used rifle that's meant for handling high pressure loads. Seems like a lot less trouble- unless you like the load challenge. Personally I'd be worried about finding a round good enough for elk that your M1's rate of twist will stabilize properly. I've had two rifle where the twist rate made a huuuge pain when trying various bullet weights. They are just happy with 1 weight for great accuracy.

[Just Fish]

Like mentioned earlyer good ol 180 gr remington corelok will work jusy fine.

[Don Fischer]

H4895 was used in the military ammo. Hodgdons got his start selling that old powder. It is not a very slow burning powder, it's a med burn rate. about like 3031 or BLC/ 2 or W 748. Hornady shows different loads for the Springfield version and the Grand version. The Grand versions are loaded down quite a bit, bet theres a reason for that.

[simpleguy]

I have considered doing the same thing, maybe a Springfield SOCOM II or something. Hey bolt actions were based on military weapons.

[Oregon-Jet]

168 grain is about the safe limit and as a general rule, commercial ammo is a no no.

The M1 Garand was designed for a 150 grain FMJ bullet using a mid range (burning speed) powder such as IMR or Hodgdon 4895.

Never slower than 4064. Heavy bullets or slow powders will develop far too high port pressures which will bend the operating rod, rendering your lovely Garand into an expensive wall hanger until you find someone to repair it at great expense.

If you really want to use commercial, find a Garand-smith & pay him to modify the gas system to allow it's use.

I'll reiterate the three most important points of this thread:

1) Do NOT use commercial ammo in your Garand.
2) NEVER load bullets HEAVIER than 180 grains
3) NEVER load powder that is SLOWER than IMR-4320


Meanwhile, find surplus or learn to reload (& save money too!)

[baltz526]

so garands are worthles pieces of camel dung, not worth boat anchor scrap. thanks i did not know this. you have truley devalued them greatly, thank you

[fish forever]

While I have not taken an Elk with my Garand, I have worked up and tested a load for hunting them.

I am using 46.0 grains of IMR 4895 with 165 Swift Scirrocco's. It is about 100-200 fps slower than factory (2600fps in my rifle) but functions well and in the range for the M1's gas system. Use a reputable manual for the starting load and work up to it safely. This load was safe in my gun but - actual mileage will vary in your gun. This load does not require an adjustable gas plug. I get about 2moa at 100yds. I would feel comfortable using this for a 200-250 yard range, but wouldnt consider it a long range proposition.

One thing to look for in bullet selection is something that will not deform in the magazine and feeding. Scirrocos and protected soft points work well. Some spitzer softpoints will get deformed in the magazine and auto feed. I havent tried them, but would think accubonds, interbonds, and ballistic tips should work as well.

Be gentle with that Op Rod - they are expensive to replace. IMR4064, 4895, and VArget are good powders. Keep bullet weights to 180 or under. You can do more with the adjustable plug - but make sure it opened up for heavier bullets and slower powders.

[Don Fischer]

I would suggest you look at some powder burn rate charts. You mentioned something about powders faster than 4895. Much faster than that and your into slow pistol powders. I'd check out the Hornady manual for the 30-06 Garand and not risk ruining that rifle.

Ore-Jet has it right!

[billc_sbio]

Originally Posted by Oregon-Jet

168 grain is about the safe limit and as a general rule, commercial ammo is a no no.

The M1 Garand was designed for a 150 grain FMJ bullet using a mid range (burning speed) powder such as IMR or Hodgdon 4895.

Never slower than 4064. Heavy bullets or slow powders will develop far too high port pressures which will bend the operating rod, rendering your lovely Garand into an expensive wall hanger until you find someone to repair it at great expense.

If you really want to use commercial, find a Garand-smith & pay him to modify the gas system to allow it's use.

I'll reiterate the three most important points of this thread:

1) Do NOT use commercial ammo in your Garand.
2) NEVER load bullets HEAVIER than 180 grains
3) NEVER load powder that is SLOWER than IMR-4320


Meanwhile, find surplus or learn to reload (& save money too!)

Yep, Only a couple of IMR powders suitable for the M1 Rifle as stated.

Stick with those, and correct weight bullets and you'll be fine.

[billc_sbio]

Originally Posted by baltz526

so garands are worthles pieces of camel dung, not worth boat anchor scrap. thanks i did not know this. you have truley devalued them greatly, thank you

Nope!

Just that they were developed with certain weight bullets in mind along with certain burn rate powders.

As you probably are aware, the Garand's Gas Cylinder and Op Rod are way far FORWARD in this design.

Powders that burn slower than those it was designed for can create higher pressures AT the Port and can generate impulses that can bend or shatter the long Operating Rod.

It doesn't mean the rifle's "worthless", just designed to shoot specific ammo.

I'd bet it would be possible to (incorrectly) load ammo that you could "mess up" an AK47 with.

NOTE: BTW, did you know that John Garand originally designed his rifle to shoot a scaled down lookalike of the .30-06 called the .270 Pederson?

Yep, he did and that's what the original rifle was designed for.

Gen. Douglas McArthur vetoed the idea and said the rifle had to be in U.S. .30 Cal. (.30-06)

[Oregon-Jet]

Originally Posted by baltz526

so garands are worthles pieces of camel dung, not worth boat anchor scrap. thanks i did not know this. you have truley devalued them greatly, thank you

You miss understand me, They are a great rifle, I would buy everyone if I could, they just have a design and to play it safe you need to stay inside the limits.
You can hunt with them, I do.

[Fishbulb]

I really only need a round good out to a max of 250. Most likely the shot will be 150 or less because that is the type of hunting available to me locally.

I have read quite a lot on other forums about hunting experiences with the M1 and the loads they work up but not much specifically for elk.

I wish Garand would have kept that exterior rounds remaining counter from the .276 and transferred it to the 30 cal.

[adobe wall]

Originally Posted by baltz526

so garands are worthles pieces of camel dung, not worth boat anchor scrap. thanks i did not know this. you have truley devalued them greatly, thank you

Not devalued them at all.

Actually, FB has an adjustable gas plug for his rifle so he's got some options. There are some folks on the jouster board that could get him dialed in on using the adjustable plug. The Garand was used at 1000 yards for decades with 168 and 173 grain bullets and either drilled out or adjustable gas plugs.

The limit of the damage to the Garand is a bent op rod. That's about $50-$75 worth of damage. Not catastrophic at all- and as FB has already taken his rifle apart and reparkerized it I'd say he's competant enough to replace the op rod if necessary.

As a bit of an amusing story (billc will like this one) there was an authentic Gas Trap Garand that surfaced in Oregon a few weeks ago. Those are unbelieveably rare rifles. In the middle of debating the rifle's merits (and the possibility that one could "walk in off the street") a different guy emailed me that has had one for over 30 years and didn't know what it was until fairly recently. He used it as a foul weather backup hunting rifle. He sent me a set of pictures of the rifle- right as rain but well used.

I'm rambling a bit but imagine if we are concerned about the possibility of bending an op rod on FB's rifle, and here is another guy with a rifle worth a conservative $25,000 that used it for deer hunting for years. Gas Traps were also known to occasionally have front end failures (catastrophic ones), an issue that went away with the gas port configuration we are all familiar with.

Garand's are great rifles, not the best deer hunting choice but not the worst either. Here's some eye candy.

regards, aw

An original, unissued condition post WWII Garand. Other than some handling marks on the stock it looks like it was made yesterday. The marks on the op rod in front of the charging handle that look like scratches are soapstone marks (and there some grease pencil markings on it as well) left on it from production.



and the holy grail of Garand collection (this one isn't mine), the muzzle end of a Gas Trap Garand. If someone has one in their closet I'd love to know about it. There are a few around.



Here's the front end of a Gas Port Garand, this is the design that became standard for the rifle after serial number 50,000 or thereabouts. Earlier rifles that were originally built as Gas Traps were rebuilt into Gas Port configuration.



anyhow, enjoy hunting with the Garand fb.

regards, aw

[baltz526]

i have learned something new, garands are unsafe. i did not know this before. my logic is: any rifle that will not safely shoot the ammo that all others of the same case/caliber will safely shoot is not anything that will ever be in my safe

[baltz526]

feel free to collect them all

[Fishbulb]

Originally Posted by adobe wall

Shucks. I just all over my keyboard.

Originally Posted by baltz526

feel free to collect them all

Can do!

[adobe wall]

Originally Posted by baltz526

i have learned something new, garands are unsafe. i did not know this before. my logic is: any rifle that will not safely shoot the ammo that all others of the same case/caliber will safely shoot is not anything that will ever be in my safe

You'll want to avoid Trapdoor Springfields- modern smokeless 45-70 loads aren't recommended in them. Ditto with the Krag for the same reasons- a single lug bolt rifle isn't something I'm real enthusiastic about shooting. 1903 Springfields- rifles with serial numbers lower than 800,000 made at Springfield Armory, and below 286,506 made at Rock Island Arsenal aren't considered safe with any ammo. Garands- the gas trap front ends occasionally blew up and the gas port rifles need to be fired with the appropriate ammo. Ditto with the civilian clones of the M14 (they're just product improved Garands anyways)- they've got issues with heavy bullets or ammo loaded with powders that don't have the correct burn rate. If the civilian M14 clone has a .308 Win chamber you probably should not shoot 7.62 ammo in it either. The civilian M16 clones are pretty robust (ought to be after 50 years of improvement) but the .223 chambered ones also shouldn't be shot with 5.56 ammo if you are going to strictly follow what the books say.

You can find fault with pretty much any rifle. Take any rifle- any one- with a barrel twist on the extreme slow end of the spectrum and shoot an extremely heavy bullet in it. The bullet will probably tumble at medium range- that's a safety issue.

A bent op rod in a Garand isn't a safety issue except to a soldier in harms way (and that soldier would have been shooting issue ammo anyhow, not deer loads). It'll cause some functionality problems, that's it. If you've got a few in your safe with funny looking front ends shoot me a PM and I'll try to find a home for them, they're worth a bit too much to use as boat anchors!

regards, aw

[Santiam338]

I got a low number 03 springfield ..Shoot it regulary and figure if she was gonna blow up it would have done er by now...Ain't skeered,but don't figure to rechamber to 308 Norma any time soon..

Don't think they had Baltz's gunsafe in mind when the designed the Garand...

[adobe wall]

Originally Posted by Santiam338

Don't think they had Baltz's gunsafe in mind when the designed the Garand...

Nope, John Garand was too busy trying to get his rifle perfected. When he wasn't doing that he was ice skating in his living room. The guy was brilliant but a bit loopy. Sealed off the floor, opened the windows, and flooded the room in the winter.

regards, aw

[baltz526]

garand collectors have always said what a great gun it was, sounds like they where all somewhat wrong. a 30-06 you can not shoot 30-06 rounds in, unless they are loaded to 308 levels. hmmmm. great guns with a hidden fault. i hope all the recent released CMP garands have the new gas ports installed.