Downriver Steelhead

[wade]

I landed a "Summer-looking" bright hatchery steelhead hen today. When I cleaned her the skein sac was mainly empty but had probably 50 very small, inconsisent in size, and obviously immature eggs that were probably being reabsorbed. I'm guessing this fish was stripped of her eggs at the hatchery trap and released to come back another season. The other explanation is she was spawned out. My suspicions were confirmed when I broiled her for supper, using the exact method I've used many times. It was very lean and dry which made it tough, with way less flavor than usual, I'll probably toss the other half.

What do you think of my explanation? Assuming this was a downriver fish, what are foolproof ways to ID one? This fish had a clipped adipose fin, and one of the jaw hinges had been removed. Those are the only man-made markings I could find. Other than being a bit lean for a Winter fish this looked fine to me at the riverside.

Thanks,
Kevin

[Ty]

Wade u bring up a great question.

The spawned out steelhead u caught would be hard to determine wether it was a summer or winter.

The ovaries (eggs of variing size) are next years or the year following.

As for eggs that would be being reabsorbed would be large and loose in the body cavity.

This fish more than likely spawned in the wild on it's own. A right maxillary clip is wild broodstock and left is hatchery on the Alsea and Wilson.

I caught two fish that where spawned out and had looked like summers too.

I really am not sure what physiological characheristics u could use to tell the two apart.

I think now that hatcheries are releasing fish after spawning they are marked.

[Salmonator]

If her belly forms a nearly straight line from the vent to the base of the gills she's probably already spawned no matter how chrome. Hens hold thier good looks much longer than the bucks however the bucks hold thier flesh quality longer even when starting to turn. Either way they are hatchery fish and were meant to be eaten, not released. When you look at the numbers, that fish has a very small percentage of a chance to go to sea and return. A pale fleshed steelhead is great smoked then canned.

[SSPey]

Wade,

good to hear you got one - bummed that it was a but bland, and even more bummed that I had to work today and couldn't come along... Maybe next time

[Salmonator]

the max clip makes it easy to tell summer from winter (no summer max clips as far as I know).

Ty, your description of the max clips is confusing to say the least. I understand the Alsea has both left and right max clips returning as two year fish and the non-max clipped fish are the last of the crappy :grin: fish and are three salters. The Wilson has right clip only.

[wade]

It might be significant that this was the Siuslaw.

Salmonator, the flesh was as deep orange as any I've seen. But when it was cooked it shriveled up and dried out before it was even close to being done.

floatnfish, I e-mailed you awhile ago but I don't think it went.

Kevin

[Mrdorkfish]

Wade, Deep Orange is good even if it's on the back of a sweatshirt :tongue: To me, Steelhead is naturally a dryer fish and will turn more pale than Salmon....I firmly believe that fish...should never be "broiled" because ..yes...the outside will cook too fast..(depending on your rack settings) Bake...pan fry...or bread and deep fry. Don't broil. 12oz Tops,T-bones ,New Yorks Only! :grin: EAT THE OTHER HALF :shocked:

MrDorkfish [img]graemlins/dork.gif[/img]

Some guy named Louis that has been cooking for a living for 16 years

[wade]

Mrdorkfish,
Broiling is my favorite way to cook salmon or steelhead, whether its in the oven or on the barby. A normal one is plenty fat enough for that method. But... I'll give it to my neighbor and tell them to bake it.

Kevin

[ 02-11-2004, 09:42 PM: Message edited by: wade ]

[Ty]

Salminator,

Steelhead have a 15% chance of returning to spawn again after every spawning.

Average smolt to adult of hatchery is 2-3%.

So where did u get your math?

Sorry fer the confusion on the maxillary clips, My mind is elsewhere.

[Salmonator]

Ty, I'm about 99% sure that you are 100% incorrect that 15% of all steelhead return after spawning At the VERY least, if we consider 100% being a HIGH rate of return and 0% being a LOW rate of return, 15% would be considered a SMALL percentage. Good lord, I pray you don't represent our new generation of fish biologists

[sparkleboy]

I'm pretty sure Maxillary clips are only for winter steelhead. Ty, can you confirm this? I know for the Siletz, Nestucca, and Alsea basin fish this is true.

[SSPey]

the information that I have read indicates that return spawning is greatest in the southern range of steelhead (up to 10-12%), and decreases to only several percent in the northern range

from memory out of Trey Combs book

edit: Behnke suggests that return spawners can be as high as 20% in some years. The numbers are as high as 70% in landlocked populations. Most are females.

[ 02-11-2004, 10:11 PM: Message edited by: floatnfish ]

[Grant Scheele]

"Repeat spawning is not very common in steelhead (~10% at the study site and 95% of those are females). The largest fish you catch might be repeat spawners, but I think its way more likely they are just fish that spent an extra year at sea before returning to spawn the first time."

This was just posted by Parker. He found it on another web page. http://www.kluweronline.com/issn/0378-1909/contents

[Ty]

Salminator,

Seems and u and Born to be wild have the same sickness.

OK, let's start from the top... steelhead as eggs to smolt 1 in 200, then steelhead as smolt 0-25% depending on whole lot of irrelevent stuff on this post.

Then, fish comes back, if it survives to spawn again, roughly 15% return to spawn again.

So, a live fish, not killed that has spawned would be much more likely to return again. Of course we don't want hatchery fish out there spawning on there own, however u are very incorrect in assuming that it isn unlikely to spawn again. Since from and egg to adutl survival could ba as low as 1 in a 1000.

Maybe u and Born to be wild woudl feel better if we jsut met on a gravel bar and dukes it out?

[Grant Scheele]

Ty, I must have the same disease because I don't understand your math or what you are trying so say.....Oh well, luckily I don't matter. [img]graemlins/dork.gif[/img]

[Salmonator]

Grant, you DO matter! Where else would I have found a bracket for my 24volt on such short notice in Albany. I consider myself lucky you trash your kickers so often [img]graemlins/dork.gif[/img]

[SSPey]

Salmonator - Describing 15% as "small" has no meaning in population biology. It depends on what the 15% represents. 15% at what life stage? Egg? Smolt? Adult? Depends on the life history stage, and whether its a type 1, 2, or 3 life history. Do most readers of ifish even know what this is, or why it matters? Those who know anything about investing money can probably draw some parallels... but biology is way cooler!

In the case discussed here, the 2-15% of repeat spawners represents a unique component of life histories of these fish populations. From an evolutionary point of view, these repeat spawners remain in the gene pool because their unique life history contributes something beneficial to the survival of the species. Why aren't they outcompeted by fish that make 15% more eggs the first time around and simply die? Its a bet hedging strategy that persists because nature is variable from year to year. We need to preserve that genetic variation in order to sustain and restore out fish runs. We don't want cookie cutters like Alsea brats up and down the coast, do we??

I've heard ideas that 4 and 5 salt fish are rare in many areas of North America because humans have selected these big 'uns out of the gene pool. In comparison, relatively unpressured Kamchatka fish regularly show 4 and 5 salt year components. This comparison isn't conclusive, but its food for thought. Scientific papers have shown that hunting selects to kill trophy specimens, and this selection acts genetically to reduce the potential size of game animals remaining in the population. It stands to reason that fish and fishing might work the same way.

Yes, big fish may have simply spent more time in the ocean, and ist true that repeat spawners are smaller than fish from their same cohort who didn't bother to spawn multiple times. Does that mean we should not worry about preserving 2-10% of the population that are repeats? I don't think so. The persistence of these fish against the odds suggests that some people don't understand how the odds work - that is - they don't understand basic population biology.

I don't like to see the attitude that gets pulled on either side of these debates. However, being a good angler doesn't earn someone the right to be a biologist. Ty may not be explaining it well, but he's on track with this one.

[Salmonator]

Float n' fish, thanks for the biology lesson So what you are saying is that we need to release all spawned-out hatchery fish so they have another chance at spawning in the wild right? That's the only possible point you could be trying to make with your reply to my post.

[Quasimodo the fish killer]

The suislaw as far as I know was the genisis of the brood stock program on the oregon coast

I know that there are no summer fish of any number that spawn in the suislaw river so his fish was a spawned out winter fish.

our bioligist that runs the program began hand spawning every returning adult and releasing them back to the river many years ago the second spawn fish have a great return rate on this river and I cant remember for sure but I believe he said they get a 25% or better return on them.

last year we had a smolt die of because of cold water disease the second spawn fish actually made up for the mass loss of smolts so that the trap got back almost the same amout of fish as it would have if the smolts had survived.

it may only be a small percentage as compared to 100% but its more fish in the river. the second spawn fish suplement the returns of first spawn fish.

the old hatchery practices of killing the returning fish or shipping them off to a pond some place was a terrible waste.

well thats all I really know about this topic dont know if the info helps or not


Quasi


.

[wade]

Quasimoto, Thanks for the info on the Siuslaw. A couple years ago the Eugene newspaper had a big article about stripping the hens and throwing them back, and this accounted for a lot of 12-15 pounders in later years. I'm curious to know how they strip those fish and how vacant they are after the procedure. That article said the stripped fish hang out near the hachery for a few days then make their way back downstream. Also I'm curious about what the window for spawning is. I'm thinking its late Feb to early May and if this were true I had an early fish.

Salmonator, floatnfish's motive for posting is obvious and there's nothing boring about it, from those that care about biology anyway. Personally I think its inseparable from fishing and pity the quarry and environment of those who disagree. Whereas it may seem hidden the purpose of this topic is about biology.

Kevin

[wade]

I reread this entire post and see that there are two points and folks are arguing about it to a wall. One point is: 15% might be a high number. The other point: Eat all hatchery fish. For what its worth I agree with both points. But personally, I'm hesitant to bonk any animal that I don't plan on eating. Can we kiss and make up? :shocked: It still bugs me though that somebody would disregard biology as it pertains to fishing.

Kevin

[SSPey]

Ain't nothing in there about keeping hatchery fish. Hatchery fish are for the table. Nice deflection.

[wade]

Truthfully, I really don't care if people get along here or not. I'm just trying to understand where they're coming from, otherwise its just a humorous, meaningless slugfest, which can be fun but it doesn't fit too well for long. Other than the deflection comment your point was pretty clear floatnfish, 15% may not be a small number.

Kevin

[Fast Water]

On the very high end 30% Closer to 10 to 15%.

Edit: of returning adults.

You might as well harvest a hatchery fish and get it out of the system.

:smile:

[ 02-12-2004, 10:31 AM: Message edited by: Fast Water ]

[A-Boss]

Harvesting a spawned out hatchery fish is like closing the barn door after the cows are gone. Doesn't do a whole lot of good.

Better off to let it go and maybe catch it next year.

[Salmonator]

Floatn'fish, we must be reading different threads because my (first) post is all about keeping a spawned out hatchery fish. I don't recall giving return percentages for fish at different life history stages. Just the one fish that the whole topic is centered on, an adult spawned out hatchery fish. I don't see where that was too hard to understand. As far as my smiley, that was my poor choice of a description as to how I felt your post had any relevance to anything I said. I do not think your post was boring, but very interesting and easy to understand. [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]

As far as a broodstock fish spawning in the wild, I dream of the day that we get some good evidence that they are every bit as capable of producing offspring with survival characteristics that match a natives. I have a gut feeling they do, but in the meantime bonking a decent looking spawned out brat whether it was on purpose or by accident won't be cutting too far into the next years count. Which was the sole purpose of my first post.... Joe

[ 02-12-2004, 06:51 PM: Message edited by: Salmonator ]

[wade]

Salmonator, let's call a spade a spade, this is what floatnfish responded to:

"Ty, I'm about 99% sure that you are 100% incorrect that 15% of all steelhead return after spawning At the VERY least, if we consider 100% being a HIGH rate of return and 0% being a LOW rate of return, 15% would be considered a SMALL percentage. Good lord, I pray you don't represent our new generation of fish biologists"

It was not only inaccurate, but inflammatory, and it obviously struck a cord in someone other than the target.

Thanks for the info on IDing a spent fish, that's what I was hoping to gain from this.

Kevin

[Salmonator]

Originally posted by Ty:
Salminator,

Steelhead have a 15% chance of returning to spawn again after every spawning.

Average smolt to adult of hatchery is 2-3%.

So where did u get your math?

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">And that was what I was responding to. Yea, it struck a chord with me. You noticed however I said only 99%

And are you SURE it is incorrect?

[ 02-12-2004, 07:23 PM: Message edited by: Salmonator ]

[seasel]

Trey Combs has the best "public access" information on this subject. I think the book is Steelhead Flyfishing. A section looks at reuturning and repeat-returning steelhead in a variety of river systems from Alaska to California. For more in-depth info than Combs published, you'd have to delve into someone's doctorate or masters thesis, or find the right guy in the fish and game department(s) to steer you to specific publications.

The main points of steelhead research to date:
1. Very few steelhead spawn more than once, although all can. They are not gentically programmed to die like salmon.
2. Some river sytems produce a higher percentage of repeat spawners than others.
3. Hens are the vast majority of repeat spawners. They drop their eggs and head downstream. Bucks are extemely rare as repeat spawners, because they expend so much energy fighting other bucks for the right to spawn with anything that swims that they rarely survive the rigors of the spawning the run (Gee, imagine that).
4. The oldest fish are repeat spawners. They are not the largest, because they gave up a year of growth for a year of spawning. Right now, people in Eastern Washington are catching steelhead that entered the Columbia last summer. Those fish have done nothing but lose weight. If they (the fish, not the people) have a sibling in the ocean, it is getting fatter right now while they are getting skinnier. The largest fish in any given year are the ones that left the ocean the latest. And the absolutely largest are the ones that stayed in the ocean the greatest number of years, not the ones that made the greatest number of spawning runs.
5. The world record steelhead of 44 pounds (I think that's right) caught off Bell Island in Alaska had a tumor growing near its pituitary gland. This stifled its gentic need to spawn, so it just stayed in the ocean and grew until some kid (I think he was ten) caught it. No one will catch a steelhead over 40 pounds until such a freak occurs again.
6. Many of the biggest steelhead around are no longer available for harvest. Gene Maygra's Washington winter record, for example, out of the East Fork Lewis was caught in the spring, when the river is now closed; from a location that is now closed to fishing (just below Lucia Falls).

I love steelhead, and I know a lot about them. The information I share is free, and worth every penny.

Seasel

[FishinMission]

Back to the original question....if they look like a snake (long and thin)I'd guess them to be spawners...Their color will come back after time, too.

Mark