Hey RT . . . a question for you

[Snagly]

In one of your "Over/ under" posts you mentioned that braided lines are underrated for salmon/ steelhead fishing. I know some people fish jigs and floats with braid, and a few others pull plugs with it but how exactly are you using it?

I've recently bought a handful of braided mono leaders that are designed to be used with gelspun polyethylene lines (Spectra, Fireline, etc). These leaders are particularly abrasion resistant and, furthermore, are very stretchy. This reduces the hook pull-outs that we so frequently get in saltwater fishing with braid and conventional mono or fluorocarbon leaders.

The wind on leader is attached by tying a double in the braid (either a Bimini or a Spider Hitch) then doing a more complicated version of a loop-to-loop connection with the leader. (This entails making a cats paw to strengthen the connection.) Anyway, it's not as hard as it sounds and the result would appear to be an excellent method for steelhead/ salmon float fishing.

If anyone's interested in trying out the leaders, they are called Knotted Dogs and can be found on www.harro.com.au. The leaders are made in Australia (cheap currency)and can be ordered over the Internet (even to the good old USA). I'll be fishing 'Dogs in Australia at the end of Sept and will keep you posted.

Hi Snagly. How goes it a world apart? [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img] ...

That's an interesting Aussie site for sure. The different species of fish in the pics caught my eye more than the different line types covered. And I can't give any feedback on the new braided mono leaders because I haven't tried them yet. But I will tell you why I love the superbraids. ...

The inherent advantages of these modern superbraid lines is fairly well known. They are very thin, very strong, float when you want them to, and don't stretch. The type of fishing done and amount of overall fishing skill are factors in whether this line will be best for your type of fishing or not. I know you have the experience and abilility Snagly; but I don't know about the techs for all those exotics you fish for. When you are after anadromous salmonids these lines really shine in a lot of stiuations. The extremely thin diameter per given pound line test allows for a mainline that will cut down deeper thru water currents with less weight (particularly good for backbouncing) and allows diving plugs to get deeper per amount of line out and deeper overall. These are great advantages. This stuff also floats, making for a good float fishing mainline.

Specifically:

* Backbouncing - This has made a great beneficial advantage for backbouncing rivers for chinooks (cohos and steelhead also). For example, I can backbounce the larger than average Clackamas R. (Cowlitz/NF Lewis too) when the river is up and flowing normally during the fall and winter seasons, typically with 30 lb. or 40 lb. thin braid, and only need 3 oz. of lead; where with 20 lb. or 25 lb. mono mainline in the same water I would need 5 oz. to get to tapping bottom. Also, with no stretch the braid picks up and taps the lead so much easier and with less rodtip and bait movement. The fish prefer a smaller jigging motion when backbouncing eggs or shrimp, rather than a larger swath to get the lead picked up. You can also detect bites much better with the no stretch braids. This also applies to drift fishing. It picks up the lead or slinky over the rocks with less rod movement, feels the bite better, and sets the hook quicker and deeper. What fishers need to know is to just set the hook with a good quick wrist snap; not try to yank the fish into the boat during the set (with no stretch this can yank the hook out). I use low stretch Maxima line for leaders - Chameleon when there is color in the water and Ultragreen when clearish. I also use lighter line for lead droppers, various lengths for backbouncing and a couple inches for driftfishing, so that the lead breaks off and leaves the braid free. If you have a good fast action taper graphite rod with flexable tip and reasonable reflexes, the lack of stretch will not be a negative factor in landing fish - in fact, you will land more because it's stronger and can turn a fish's head and direction better.

* Backtrolling plugs - This is where I am sure many guys will disagree with me, but I love the thin braids for plugging. The downside is that there is no line stretch to absorb the shock of real hard hits. But again, if you have a proper flexing rodtip and leave the drag set moderately you won't be losing fish. And I will say again, the hook(s) are usually set deeper with the braid. Of course the big advantage here is the braid's extremely thin diameter. If I am to backtroll a relatively short slot in my sled or driftboat, I will have my plug deeper with the necessary shorter amount of line I can get out. If I have a long deeper chinook slot (like I love to fish for Clack springers) the braid will get the plug the deepest, regardless of how much mono mainline you would let out by comparison. I tie on the smallest barrel swivel that is adequate for the size fish I am targeting onto the superbraid mainline and then about 40" to 50" of Maxima leader to the other end of the swivel. I then tie on a wire snap on the business end of the leader. I can quickly change plugs, as I have already taken the stock wire snap off of them and pretuned them. I can also clip on a clear 20' Jet Planer diver or small piece of lead onto the upper end of the swivel for really deep holes. I can also use this same rig to switch to Kwikfish or spinners/spoons. It's a versatile and very effective rigup.

* Float fishing - The obvious advantage of the braids here is that they float, making it easier to mend the mainline to keep slack to a minimum. And since you will still have some slack, the no stretch property of these lines comes in again during a bobber down hookset - it does it faster and better than mono.

* Longevity - The braids are much longer lasting against the elements of moisture and sun than mono! And because of the thin diameter you can get much more of it on your reels. That comes in handy when a 'freight train' fish runs you down to the next hole faster than you can follow. And it leaves enough line to occassionally trim a few feet off the end to maintain maximun strength.

* Negatives - The biggest downside is when you snag up these braids and can't get them loose. You may have to cut them as close to the snag as you can get. This is a very small portion of the time because they are strong enough to pull free of most snags, or to break the dropper or leader. And if you use proper techs for specific water you won't snag up much. Also, some contend that the braids are less abrasion resistant. I just don't think this is much of a factor at all. They are just so strong that one that has gotten a bit frayed is usually still stronger than your leader; even the next few leaders. And you can get so much more of it on your reel that you can periodically cut off a few feet from the end and retie to full strength, again and again. Some contend that it's harder to get backlashes out of the braids. I find them easy to cast and about equal on the 'backlash fun' scale as mono, but less damaged and weakened than the mono. You also need to wind the braids on level wind spools firmly so as to lessen the chance of this thin slippery stuff 'wedging' in the spooled line; rarely a prob when you do that.

* Note: No, I'm not a superbraid line salesman. [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img] I am a believer in these line's advantages, and I take advantage of them! This post is taken from a section in my book manuscript. ... Let us know how you do with these braids Snagly - especially up north fishing the big ones.

[ 08-30-2001: Message edited by: RT ]

[Snagly]

Thanks, RT. That's a whole chapter in the book as far as I'm concerned. I do 90% of my fishing over here with braid, so at the risk of repeating myself:

1. Braid is great line for casting and trolling lures. The difference between "mono-stretch" and "no-stretch-braid" is so great that it's hard to go back to mono for salmon/ steelhead fishing.

2. "No stretch" also often means "pulled hooks". ALWAYS fish some type of non-braid leader for the extra give on the hookset and to absorb the sudden lunges. Even 36" of mono stretches 8-9" -- more than the entire braid length of line in the water will.

3. If your rod is long enough, safest to connect mono and braid via a swivel. If you want an extra long leader or are fishing a shorter rod and want to wind passed the joining point (i.e., where the swivel would be), then there are a host of knots (as mentioned above).

In the salt, the leaders start out so that the joining knot sits right outside the "eye" on the baitcaster (i.e., aside from Knotted Dogs you typically don't wind this knot onto the reel). For a 6' musky rod (the typical out here), that's a 6'6" leader to begin the day with. As you change lures, cut it back till you're down to 24". Then tie on a new leader.

4. The hard finish monos or FC are MUCH more abrasion resistant. This is the reason you should use a longer leader (plus the extra stretch) when fishing salmon/ steelhead. The abrasion resistance of the superbraids is very, very poor. I have had many trophies cut me off on the single and double line. One of the downsides. Therefore, longer is better on leaders.

5. I wouldn't cut the braid off if I was using < 20lb rated test (breaks at about 33lbs fresh). This stuff can be yanked free using gloves or a line breaker (see above). I hate leaving this line in the river -- I've really buggered some good slots with a 30' length of Fireline hanging off a log or a rock.

6. As for all your recommended uses, "I hear you brother". I've done something similar in the salt in every case.

7. Despite the cost, the line is value-for-money. When it loses its color and delaminates, unspool it and then re-spool in the other direction. That's good for another 6 months.

8. ALWAYS start by spooling 20-30' of mono on a baitcasting reel, then join the mono backing to the braid and spool up TIGHT. Otherwise the mass of braid can slip on the spool when the drag is tightened down, causing you to erroneously think that the drag is shot. It's not -- braid is so slick it will spin around the spool w/o mono to create friction below.

In summary, the feel fishing braid vs. mono is akin to riding the horse bareback vs. on an Eastern saddle.

Your comments have given me new confidence. I'm going to give it another go on the Skeena this fall!

[Wet_Willy]

RT,
I don't know how this could be tested but I have heard, more than a couple of times, that braided lines will put off a hum or sonic vibration when pulled through the water. Not an issue with salmon that aren't leader shy but with steelhead might be. Do you get as many or more hookups with steelhead on the braided as you did with a mono line? I've avoided using the braided lines for steelhead out of my drift boat for this very reason so I don't have any experience pulling plugs with the braided. I do very well with the mono pulling plugs and am hesitant to fix a wheel that isn't broken. What do you think?
WW

[Beek]

Snagly,
I've fished the braided mono lines your talking about up here...the line is called braided nylon and is awesome for Sturgeon fishing. The line is incredibly stretchy and strong, although it isn't as thin as the superbraids. Anyone who fishes Sturge should check this leader material out. On the downside it is hard to find (can't remember the brand name offhand), and only one local tackle store carries it.

[Snagly]

I'm not a steelhead plugger so you're right to ask RT but I do a fair amount of trolling for estuarial and inshore bluewater species and I think I have the answer to the "fsihing urban legend" that braid sets up vibrations in the water that can spook fish.

Braid is so much thinner per test plus the low-stretch combine to give you a world of difference in feel when trolling or backing-down plugs. With braid, the same plugs really cause the rod tips to work hard -- they thump more. This probably caused some fishless plugger to conclude the braid was spooking the fish via the vibrations. Certainly no species I've ever trolled for with braid has been spooked to the extent that braid fished across from mono won't still outfish mono every time.

The reasons are simple:

1. The feel is so much better with braid you can feel mouthings or gentle takes better than with mono. The hooksets are both faster and more effective with less stretch, too.

2. Your lures run cleaner -- with mono you might have a bit of moss on the Siwash or a leaf fragment. Not enough to completely foul the plug but just enough to put off the fish. With braid you immediately know when one cylinder isn't firing on the plug and you can reel up and clear it. (I usually get the plug to the surface and give it a few rips to clear the mangrove leaves or other gunk off the lure, then let out some more line. Harder to do with backtrolling, I know.)

4. Plugs run deeper with braided line than mono. Most of the time this is a good thing.

On the other hand, I wouldn't tie braided line direct to ANY lure. You need a leader for improved abrasion resistance and to introduce some give into your system. Fishing straight braid plus a normal (hard) drag plus a strong hookset can have very bad consequences on your rod. You may also get bit better with mono vs. braid close to the fish.

For plugging, I'd simply tie the braid to a swivel using a double uniknot and then use whatever knot you're comfortable with to attach the mono to the other end (e.g. a Trilene knot, 4-6 turns either improved or unimproved usually yields 100% of rated strength for most monos in the 10-20lb range).

I'm sure RT will have some thoughts, too.

PS The best plugger I know changed to 100% braid four years ago. I have backtrolled hotshots with him and we did very, very well. This same fellow used to be a commercial fisherman and was the first person to mention black boxes and putting the right charge on your gear so he's very attunded to the finer points of what's going on at the end of the hook. As far as Stuart's concerned, braid is the only way to go for salmon/ steelhead plugging. [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

Well said Snagly. You and I are on the same page about the superbraid lines. ...

WW, any line from the thinnest of braid to any mono to anchor ropes will have some small degree of vibration/hum against water current. I don't see this as a negative at all. In fact, it possibly could increase the fish's curiosity to draw them closer to backbounced or Jet Planed bait. They likely won't notice or even hear it when a strongly vibrating plug (with or without loud rattles) comes down stream to them ahead of the line. And the slight 'hum' or vibes are certainly less distractive/spooking to fish than backtrolling OB motors or slapping/swishing oars. Also, the fish hear vibes of water current against small limbs, root strands, various grasses, sand, and around small rocks; and thus are used to current vibes of all kinds as they ascend the rivers. So don't even be concerned with that factor with lines against the current. If fish were adverse to it nobody but the float fishers would catch fish. [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img] ... As for using mono to backtroll for steelhead that's fine. You are usually fishing shallow to medium water depths easily reached with mono, the fish are smaller and don't need real strong line to land, and the steelies do sometimes strike super hard where the stretch can occassionally benefit somewhat with it's give. So I can't say that braids are a clearcut winner here - but with a mono leader are just as good or better in my opinion. Where the braids are clearly better for plugs is for deep water and chinooks, because they get deeper with that thin diameter line and chinooks don't slam plugs as hard as steelies. And it's stronger for landing them, because you can use a stronger mono leader with them than you can for a mono mainline (which is often too thick to dive deep enough). Try both line types over a period of time and the braids usually sell themselves. They have increased my catch rate of spring chinook significantly in the big, fast, deep Clackamas R. when backbouncing or plugging.

RT