Koin reports first test wave energy buoy sinks off coast

[Nomad_Greg]

From Koin:

http://www.koin.com/Global/story.asp?S=7297273

Test Buoy Sinks Off Oregon Coast


NEWPORT, Ore. - The first wave energy test buoy deployed off the Oregon Coast is now 150 feet below the ocean surface.
Officials say the 72-foot-tall buoy began taking on water late last week and sank just one day before engineers were going to remove it.
The company plans to recover the $2 million buoy next spring, when the ocean calms.
The device was deployed off Agate Beach in early September. Mike Clark, a spokesman for Finavera Renewables, a Canadian energy developer has been collecting information from it by computer.
Clark says the data will be used to develop the next buoy.
Finavera buoys use the vertical power of rising and falling waves to drive sea water through an onboard turbine, which generates electricity.
Clark says the underwater buoy poses no threat to the environment.

[OceanBlue]

omigosh, I dunno why I find that so funny, but I can't stop giggling over it.

That sure didn't take long!

[StickFish]

Ya what two storms. The wave action the last couple of storms - there is no way that thing saw air for a while - blub blub blub. Now think if there were 50 of the things lining the bottom - how would that not impact the sea floor, after all its there and it isn't supposed to be

[Irish Pennant]

That's what R & D is all about. My question is, doesn't Canada have an ocean?

[Chrome Bumper]

Hard to believe it doesn't have any oil or lead acid batteries.....

[HiTekRdNek]

Kinda makes me snicker too. You would think at least it would float.
But, If they were to all sink wouldn't that be artificail structure?

[Boats]

Doh!!!

[Pilar]

Artificial reef!

Saltwater plus just about anything becomes junk pretty quick.

[corrirod]

Hmmmmm..........

It barely made it thru October. How do they expect it to last through the real heavy wave months?

So will the environmentalists fine them now for "polluting" the ocean? Something tells me not.

The other thing I find interesting:

The company plans to recover the $2 million buoy next spring, when the ocean calms.

So let me get this straight, if they had hundreds of these things providing power for some coastal city, and they sunk, does that city then have to wait until "next spring" for them to get their power back?

I'm all for alternative power sources but they need to make sense.

If NOAA has trouble keeping weather buoys attached to the sea floor, why should these be any different?

[ron m]

They will learn from the experience. But no matter how unsinkable they try to make it, the ocean can get pretty darn rough. Looking at the ocean surface/waves from land just doesn't have the same impact as being on it. They want to depoly the buoys off the OR coast because of the waves and this is part of the price they -- and we -- pay.

I wonder if they really know that it's still there. Perhaps it broke loose and is now somewhere else. Two million $ down current!?
ron m

[fyshndad]

Originally Posted by OceanBlue

omigosh, I dunno why I find that so funny, but I can't stop giggling over it.

That sure didn't take long!

I too think it is very funny
$2,000,000 donated to Davey Jones Locker

Now I don't feel so bad about my Penn International going overboard

[corrirod]

If they do find it, and recover it, I'll be even more upset. I tried to propose creating artificial reefs off the Oregon coast and was told by ODFW that "They won't work. We've tried it and within a few months they are completely sanded over."

If that's not the case then I want to see artificial reefs as the new solution to our rockfish problems.

And for $2,000,000 they can sink a lot bigger artificial reef than that buoy!

[skein]

These are the same guys clammoring for a "fast track authorization" so they can start pumping all that energy to us -- and they can't even get the damn thing to float.

FAST TRACKS NEVER WORK! They just let others; like us, the fish, and the environment pay for the R&D.

I smell Enron.

Skein

[CATCH AND EAT]

Okay, I have stopped laughing now but it sure took awhile. Ya know the French figured out that this technology is not worth the trouble because it is way too costly to maintain. Just one stinking bouy is $2,000,000 bucks and now they have to recover it after the blasted thing sank? Boy that is responsible use of money.

Rod, Tell those chuckleheads they need to sink a few carriers off our shores. It would be a long while before those got sanded over. Sink a bunch of those suckers in a cluster and the fish will show in no time flat. Of course I can say this from my armchair studies of current flow and tidal exchange for which I am not educated enough to offer

[Salty Walty]

The bar was only restricted to -20' this morning. Were they going to retrieve the Buoy in a canoe?
2mill and no bilge pump or PFDs?

All kidding aside this only goes to highlight the need for this process not to be fast tracked and the Companies held responsible for cleaning up their mess.

[flapbreaker]

Does this mean my electric bill will go up this month?

[Lepper]

Next spring they are going to salvage a 2 million piece of garbage.. Pack it in, Pack it out .


By next spring couldn't it be considered part of the habitat and thus be illegal to remove from the ocean floor? Think of all the marine animals that would be calling it home by then.

[Smoked Salmon]

At least the wind turbines don't blow away...

[Boats]

Hmmm.... Maybe the Sea Lions will use them to fish off of.
Wonder how they'll deal with that. Remember.. They are protected. LOL

[CATCH AND EAT]

Originally Posted by Smoked Salmon

At least the wind turbines don't blow away...

Wrong! Two months ago a maintence worker was servicing one of those big ugly things to the east of us when the darn thing collapsed and killed him. Horrible accident.

How many people have died here from nuke accidents?:lurk:

[Chrome Bumper]

Originally Posted by CATCH AND EAT

Wrong! Two months ago a maintence worker was servicing one of those big ugly things to the east of us when the darn thing collapsed and killed him. Horrible accident.

How many people have died here from nuke accidents?:lurk:

Well if you consider the miners, fuel refiners and fabricators, research workers, power plant workers, power plant construction workers, waste managers and people inadvertanly exposed to radiation by the above activities I would extimate 1,000,000 people dead or doomed so far by the nuclear energy industry. Those would be the people inadvertaly killed. That doesn't include the 500,000+ intentionally killed in Japan.

[Jsail]

Originally Posted by Salty Walty

2mill and no bilge pump or PFDs?

Don't you just hate when some wise guy comes along and states the obvious after you go to all the work to get the project to this point.
I'm sure the bilge pump was on the list of possible accesories. :o
Give them a break, 2 mill only goes so far.
What if they had a bilge pump and the power went out?
Huh what about that wise guy!umpkin:

I work my tail off to make a living and these guys get paid for this type of forward thnking, I shoulda been a cowboy

How much KW output to you get for 2 mill (while it's floating)?

[Chromaflage]

Nice!! A $2MM crab trap.

[Okie]

I fail to see what is funny about this failure. If it succeded it might help in removing the dams and that would be good.

So don't know what is funny. It's sad in some ways but not funny.

Good Luck;

[Mark Mc]

I would describe it as "ironic" rather than funny.

The buoy is (was?) not identical to the actual working design. This was a test buoy, intended to collect a bunch of data. Yes it has some of the inner-workings of an actual generator buoy, but with a lot of modifications to collect data.

BTW we have the exact gps #'s where it was "last seen floating." Shouldn't take long for the lings to find it.

[fyshndad]

Originally Posted by Okie

I fail to see what is funny about this failure. If it succeded it might help in removing the dams and that would be good.

So don't know what is funny. It's sad in some ways but not funny.

Good Luck;

Okie
It is funny due to the fact that this company fast tracked around the rules to get that thing in place
It is funny because they wasted $2million on it after the French found out they are not worth using
It is funny because they did not give the coastal communities a choice in where they would be placed

It is funny in that it sank due to poor design

Those wave energy parks taking up and closing down a lot of square miles to fishing or even boating is not funny and they absolutely would not ever be a reason to take out the dams that create electric power (hydro) there is too much $$ at stake and too much government involved to think wave energy could replace hydro energy

Think about it

I think it may be the oceans way of saying get them things outta here

[Okie]

Originally Posted by fyshndad

Okie
It is funny due to the fact that this company fast tracked around the rules to get that thing in place
It is funny because they wasted $2million on it after the French found out they are not worth using
It is funny because they did not give the coastal communities a choice in where they would be placed

It is funny in that it sank due to poor design

Those wave energy parks taking up and closing down a lot of square miles to fishing or even boating is not funny and they absolutely would not ever be a reason to take out the dams that create electric power (hydro) there is too much $$ at stake and too much government involved to think wave energy could replace hydro energy

Think about it

I think it may be the oceans way of saying get them things outta here

[Okie]

What ever way you look at it. it isn't funny. That's for sure.

Good luck;

[Mark Mc]

Originally Posted by fyshndad

Okie
It is funny due to the fact that this company fast tracked around the rules to get that thing in place
It is funny because they wasted $2million on it after the French found out they are not worth using
It is funny because they did not give the coastal communities a choice in where they would be placed

It is funny in that it sank due to poor design

Those wave energy parks taking up and closing down a lot of square miles to fishing or even boating is not funny and they absolutely would not ever be a reason to take out the dams that create electric power (hydro) there is too much $$ at stake and too much government involved to think wave energy could replace hydro energy

Think about it

I think it may be the oceans way of saying get them things outta here

I dunno Hank.....there are varying shades of accuracy to the things you are stating. You're a pretty smart guy so....maybe you just haven't had a chance to wade through the tons of details out there; it's pretty daunting.

For example, your statement about "not giving coastal communities a choice " (in location), might not be accurate. Linclon County, and their team assembled to represent stakeholders and the County (known as the F.I.N.E. Committee) did indeed give approval for Finavera to locate the test buoy at that location.

Read all about FINE and the Lincoln County process here:

http://www.co.lincoln.or.us/counsel/lcwepp.html


To quote from http://www.co.lincoln.or.us/counsel/...e-20070823.pdf


"The siting of this buoy was a cooperative effort of Lincoln County and Fishermen Involved in Natural Energy (FINE), OSU, the Lincoln County Wave Energy Team, and Finavera...."


Aside from all that, I do tend to agree with the meaning of your statement:

I think it may be the oceans way of saying get them things outta here

[Pilar]

We don't know why it sank. And it was a test run.

Many rockets keeled over and exploded before they flew straight everytime. Eventually some guys walked on the moon.

We have 20 foot seas and bigger on this coast every winter. Best to find out how that works on a prototype than to rush things. I think the wave energy parks will be self limiting. Under water is under water. For all intents and purposes gone.

Just like TUNA! fishing it looks alot better in theory. The weather is in charge and some days people or the things they make do not belong offshore.

[OceanBlue]

Okie, you are absolutely right. It isn't funny. It IS ironic, as Mark points out.

What's it been? 2 months? 2 storms that weren't even close to what the Pacific can deliver off the Oregon coast?

What's not funny is that the impacts were not fully explored before the darned thing was placed. What would happen if it busted loose? what's the impact to the environment to have one of these sink, or float free? what's the impact to navigation? Who is responsible to "clean up" any damage or mess these things might make if they become untethered (or sink?). If it becomes sanded under and cannot be recovered, is that going to be okay? or is the thing likely to come back at some point and create a problem? What kind of entaglement hazard might the tethers pose to fish/wildlife. No one studied this prior to placing this darned thing. Where else but in the ocean is that allowed? Shoot, if I want to dig a pond in my backyard, I have to do an "environmental impact study" (okay, maybe not literally, but you get my drift).

seems to me that these things were supposedly designed to react to extreme weather so as to protect themselves. Apparently that didn't work so good...

So am I sorry this thing failed? No. why am I laughing? The irony is thick. I think it may be as Fyshindad aptly pointed out - The ocean is saying, "this doesn't belong here - go home and do your homework!"

[fyshndad]

Originally Posted by Mark Mc

I dunno Hank.....there are varying shades of accuracy to the things you are stating. You're a pretty smart guy so....maybe you just haven't had a chance to wade through the tons of details out there; it's pretty daunting.

For example, your statement about "not giving coastal communities a choice " (in location), might not be accurate. Linclon County, and their team assembled to represent stakeholders and the County (known as the F.I.N.E. Committee) did indeed give approval for Finavera to locate the test buoy at that location.

Read all about FINE and the Lincoln County process here:

http://www.co.lincoln.or.us/counsel/lcwepp.html


To quote from http://www.co.lincoln.or.us/counsel/...e-20070823.pdf


"The siting of this buoy was a cooperative effort of Lincoln County and Fishermen Involved in Natural Energy (FINE), OSU, the Lincoln County Wave Energy Team, and Finavera...."


Aside from all that, I do tend to agree with the meaning of your statement:

I stand corrected Thank you

I do recall reading that info but I thought that came after the Company got permits without input (could be info overload syndrome)

Is it not true though that this company got permits down south without any input from the counties or residents?

[Joe C]

I haven't been keeping up with the issue. Have there been any talks about shoreline wave energy capture devices?

I saw this one diagram.



Building anything on a shoreline is pretty tough these days, but I was thinking an area that has severe seacliff erosion would be a good spot to put one of these in. you can take that energy and harness it rather than let it eat away at the cliff. I dunno, it looked interesting. I've gotta figure maintenance on a land-based energy converter is a lot easier too.

[CATCH AND EAT]

Originally Posted by Chrome Bumper

Well if you consider the miners, fuel refiners and fabricators, research workers, power plant workers, power plant construction workers, waste managers and people inadvertanly exposed to radiation by the above activities I would extimate 1,000,000 people dead or doomed so far by the nuclear energy industry. Those would be the people inadvertaly killed. That doesn't include the 500,000+ intentionally killed in Japan.

Huh? Got a source to back up your "extimate" young man. I know you are smart because your pop is pretty bright. :grin: Well, okay sorta bright.:grin: Just wondering where the heck you get this kind of information for USA plants. And your wartime use of Japan is not related to this discussion. (BTW the pilot that dropped the bomb on Hiroshima died yesterday at age 92.) Lets stick to the bouy I guess

Hank, I like your ironic statement. Fits well. Bummer it failed but if the ocean will look anything like the windmills to the east, yank the suckers and find other alternatives.

[Salty Walty]

The placement of the Buoy was one picked by the FINE Group that Mark stated. It would have been easier for the Companies to place these things with little or no resistance if it was not for this group and the work of the Lincoln County Commissioners getting in front of this issue.

Funny, sad, ironic call it what you will. As a Coastal resident I am also pretty angry at the cavalier attitude of Finavera, "We'll just comeback in the Spring and get it." If it sank when it should not have are we to believe that the tethers holding it to the anchors will work too.
This was a quote from one of the Finavera reps,

"Clark said the underwater buoy poses no threat to the environment."

I do not see this as entirely correct because they did not have to do an Envir. Impact Study. We wil see an impact if it ends up on shore or they can't retrieve it though. I am just glad it was a test buoy and they learned a little bit from this bump in the road.

[black magic]

My response to what Walt is referring to:

"Clark said the underwater buoy poses no threat to the environment."

Voila! Instant environmental impact statement. No burdensome public process, stubborn scientists, or half-crazed wild-eyed lunatic stakeholders to deal with. Cost effective too. It only took a few seconds. Actual cost 35 cents. Waiver of liability to remove it, $1.87. Having FERC and Kulongoski on your side, priceless.

We have major concerns about wave energy. RFA/Oregon Anglers comment to FERC is attached. If you have insomnia tonight you might try reading it.

[Threemuch]

Bummer. Not funny to me.

Fast track is good...fast is better than slow. We need alternative engergy sources sooner, not later.

Trying something the French think is a bad idea? I am generally down with that.

Not funny to me, because somewhere, somehow, this is your money and my money. I bet these guys are working off federal grant money at some level.

I think laughing at this is a a bit of shadenfruede, which aint pretty. Funny is when the misery you are laughing at might just be your own, and you don't even realize it. And that aint funny ha-ha.

[Nalu]

FWIW- There was a follow up article in the Oregonian today about the sinking. Apparently the company was aware that the bilge pump had stopped working on the unit, and that as a demo unit it was going to be torn apart and scrapped regardless of when retrieved. The cavalier attitude is a bit disgusting, especially with a hand wave about no impact. As far as the buoy itself, doesn't sound like they really care all that much that it went down.

The cynic in me thinks they will be "unable to find it" in the spring so they won't have the time and expense of retrieving it and scrapping it the right way...

http://www.oregonlive.com/news/orego...470.xml&coll=7

[Mark Mc]

Well, maybe we can make lemonade out of it. On what day did it sink? We'll get the weather data for that day & find it ourselves.....new inside-40 fathom lingcod spot coming right up.

Actually, since it was tethered to several anchors my guess is it didn't move too far at all.

[Metal Manipulator]

It is darn funny to me when the Government is forcing this down our throats. And you can show me the evidence that there are no tax dollars used in this test. One way or another it will cost us!!!

Chromo we are the only country in the world not building nuclear power. By the way most are using the designs developed at OSU. You are also way off base bringing up the bombing in Japan. Have you not read the statistics of how many American and Japanese lives droping this bomb saved, give me a break!

We are the Best Country in the world past and present!!!

Unless a new power source is developed the dams on the Columbia will never be removed not even if Liberals are in charge.

[Bait O' Eggs]

Was it made in Southern Oregon, near I-5 ??

[Salty Walty]

I just saw on KATU that there has been a change in plans and that they will be trying to retrieve it next week. A wise decision to continue a good working relationship.

[Mark Mc]

Originally Posted by Salty Walty

I just saw on KATU that there has been a change in plans and that they will be trying to retrieve it next week. A wise decision to continue a good working relationship.

They probably read this thread and realized.....if they wait until spring, it will be covered with diamond jigs, circle hooks, and shrimp flies.

[Zodiac-Fisherman]

One tenant from a apartment building that my folks owns is a underwater welder, he spent the last week in newport installing the wave energy generating buoy, funny he didnt mention anything about it sinking when i talked to him last night.

[Onokai]

This outfit just had a meeting here last week (Humboldt State) to tell us about plans for a Buoy north of Trinadad. Seems the 1st ship sank before the storm season. This stuff makes for good artifical reef material-kinda pricey at a 2 million a pop but good for fish habitat on bottom when sunk. They need some larger holes in it for fish to hide. If they wait till spring it will sand in and be a BEAR to get up. Mark

[Norski]

By next spring it could make it to china, and we don't have to ship it and they can salvage it, a 2m free b.

[Chromaflage]

They'd better hope that some yellow eye don't take up residence prior to recovery.

[corrirod]

Mark,

Do you know how the FINE committee was established and who the members are? It appears as though it is just another name for Lincoln County government to me? For such an important committee they don't seem to list it on the county site, or maybe I just can't find it?

I like how they use the word "Fishermen". It's kind of like the OFCC (Oregon FISHERMEN's Cable Committee). They use the word "fishermen's" to make people think it has the approval of all fishermen, when really its a way for the Cable companies to grease the hands of the trawlers to keep them from complaining about getting their gear hung up on their underwater cables.

As I see it, FINE was established to determine WHERE the buoy would be placed, NOT whether or not to place it. There is a big difference folks.

Just my

[Boats]

These guys aren't from around here so they've learned a lesson about the Pacific.
It's 2 Million dollars.
What else could possibly go wrong????

I wonder...

[Salty Walty]

Rod,

I will get a list of the members. I do know that they are all actual working fishermen. There was no doubt that these things were going to be put in. It was thought that it would be best to have a group in place that could help place these buoys in the least intrusive spots, if that is possible.

[corrirod]

There was no doubt that these things were going to be put in.

That's kind of what I thought. I don't need the list, I just wanted to make sure that they had as little power as I thought they did.

It would be like PFMC making a committee called, "Fishermen For No-Take Canary Rockfishing". We, the PFMC, already decided you can't take Canary rockfish but we want your committee to decide which page of the fishing regulations you want it listed on.

[Mark Mc]

Rod, relax a minute.


For some background on FINE, read page 2 of this document http://www.co.lincoln.or.us/board/mi...%20Minutes.pdf

Lincoln County, in conjunction with Oregon SeaGrant, has put together a group called FINE - Fishermen Involved in Natural Energy. This group has representatives from different stakeholder groups . Mike Samples and Mike Fitzpatrick are the designated sportfishing reps. Fitzpatrick is a charter operator out of Depoe Bay. Another rep is Don Mathews from Marine Discovery Tours. Use the email link at the bottom to get in contact with any of these folks.

From Oregon SeaGrant, Kaety Hildenbrand is the primary public outreach person. Some of you may remember her presentation at the Salty Dogs convention last winter. See these pages for Kaety's contact info:
http://seagrant.oregonstate.edu/exte...ml#hildenbrand

http://www.co.lincoln.or.us/counsel/...2007-08-15.pdf

The last link above is a prior meeting announcement for the FINE group. That would be the best place for a concerned fisher-person to participate.

As it says on the Lincoln County website:

"Contact Lincoln County to comment on our wave energy project, or to add your e-mail address to our list to receive notices, press releases, and periodic updates on the project: waves@co.lincoln.or.us "

Rod, if you dig through that (wave energy) page on the Lincoln County website, there are a number of documents / stories from the Newport paper about the whole thing.

You might want to do a little more homework before making the declaration of how much power they do or do not have. If you feel like doing some investigating of your own, find out what Lincoln County is doing relative to a permit application for wave energy.

[corrirod]

Mark, if you found somewhere in there where they have the power to shut this down please point it out. All I could find was a lot of "advising" and no "controlling".

I copied the section on there about the forming of this committee so everyone can see it without having to sort thru the site:

County Counsel Belmont advised that in accordance with the county’s desire to partner with community
stakeholders in advancing wave action energy, a new committee named “Fishermen Involved in Natural
Energy” (FINE) is being formed. The committee is composed of members representing a cross-section of
all the county’s fishing industries. Commissioner Thompson noted that this committee presents an
opportunity for the fishing industries to address potential conflicts with historical use of the ocean
resources and to lend expertise in planning for and siting of wave energy parks and devices in the shores
off Lincoln County. It will also allow the industries to enter into agreements with various agencies,
including Oregon State University, which will be placing one buoy in the ocean in the near future to
monitor wave activities. Commissioner Lindly stated he was very impressed with the list of individuals
willing to serve on the committee, and Commissioner Thompson was thanked for his efforts in helping to
form the group. Commissioner Thompson advised that Bob Jacobson, former Extension Agent, has been
instrumental in the formation of the committee and will be acting as its chair.

For a committee with so much power the verbage makes it sound like they already made the commitment to put in the buoy before the formation of this committee?

I found the authorization of FERC was April of 2006 but the FINE committee wasn't authorized until February 2007.

Unfortunately I don't find all this legal <stuff> that interesting Mark so I'd rather not spend any further time investigating where the smell is coming from. Much like my dog's "droppings", if I can smell the odor I don't need to go investigate what created it.

Hmmmmm........2 million bucks.......... How many Shelton Fish Descenders would that buy?

[Mark Mc]

Well Rod ol' buddy, it's hard for me to tell how serious vs humorous you are...from one paragraph to the next. I was hoping you'd dig up this tidbit yourself, but I'll share it:

Lincoln County has submitted a (wave energy) permit application to FERC. It is for the area off of Linclon County. They got the first permit application in for this area; one of the energy companies is second behind them.

This is kinda like the old-time gold mining claims. If LC gets the permit, then they get primary control over what can / can not happen in their waters.

Does that action meet your criteria of being serious / taking control?

g'nite....

[corrirod]

And what does this have to do with FINE's power?

[skein]

I just saw on KATU that there has been a change in plans and that they will be trying to retrieve it next week.

Darn. I was thinking we could go out and SALVAGE it ourselves and sell it back to 'em.

Might be fun to go over and watch the salvage operation. Do they have to gather up the cables as well, or can they just let them grind along the sea bed?

I still smell Enron.

Skein

[Chrome Bumper]

Originally Posted by CATCH AND EAT

I know you are smart because your pop is pretty bright. :grin: Well, okay sorta bright.

CATCH AND EAT Have you met my father or was that a cheap shot? Picking on an 87 year old pacific war vet now are you?

I believe the power transmission converting the wave action to a rotary motion is a hydraulic system, as in hydraulic fluid, which is typically mineral oil. It seems prudent to salvage that system sooner than later.

Great photo shop BOATS02, looks real, and you know that's going to happen, a perfect hauling out spot.

You can bet the effort has some public funding. Which makes sense because it is in the publics best interest to find and use the cheapest and cleanest energy sources available.

Whether wave energy is clean and cost effective can only be demonstrated definitively through trial and error. Personally is sounds like an expensive, ugly and troublesome way to make energy, but time will tell.

BTW it didn't founder, they just moved it to long term storage.

[Lepper]

Originally Posted by skein

Darn. I was thinking we could go out and SALVAGE it ourselves and sell it back to 'em.

Might be fun to go over and watch the salvage operation. Do they have to gather up the cables as well, or can they just let them grind along the sea bed?

I still smell Enron.

Skein

I Smell a lot of things. :grin:

I wonder if someone else isn't attempting to salvage the thing, since they moved it up.

[Mark Mc]

Rod, I'm not the one to answer questions about how much "power" / authority the FINE group has, or the related question of.....the authority of Lincoln County once they get the permit (assuming they do); or your implied question of "can wave energy (projects) be stopped?"

You would do much better to get your questions answered by dealing with them directly. Contact these 2 people (Terry Thompson and Kaety Hildenbrand):


kaety.hildenbrand@oregonstate.edu

tthompson@co.lincoln.or.us


Regards,

Mark

[CATCH AND EAT]

Originally Posted by Chrome Bumper

CATCH AND EAT Have you met my father or was that a cheap shot? Picking on an 87 year old pacific war vet now are you?

I'm very sorry, I confused your moniker with Chrome Obsession. I know his father well. My appologies. Thought you were his kid. No cheap shot intended. PM sent.