Turkey/Grouse ?

[Irish Pennant]

A couple of hunting camp questions. Do turkeys compete for the same resources as the grouse? Will an expanding population of turkey effect the population of grouse?

[nunyet]

In Hells canyon as the turkey population has exploded it seems to me the chukar numbers are down. I think the turkeys are egg eaters , but that is just my take. If anyone has information on this ?

nunyet

[lor]

Originally Posted by Irish Pennant

A couple of hunting camp questions. Do turkeys compete for the same resources as the grouse? Will an expanding population of turkey effect the population of grouse?

I'm no expert, but it seem like turkey and grouse inhabit different areas.
Turkey seem to prefer the more open areas, but need good roosting trees like big oaks. Most of the open areas and tree types are on private land, and thats where I've found the majority of turkey. Even in area's where there's lots of BLM, state, or forest land. The turkeys seem to be down in the pastures.

Grouse on the other hand seem to prefer the deep forest, and have no trouble in conifer forests, especially good looking elk spots. I haven't seen muck turkey sign in those types of places.

So to answer the question, I don't think they compete much.

[Limbhanger]

Originally Posted by nunyet

In Hells canyon as the turkey population has exploded it seems to me the chukar numbers are down. I think the turkeys are egg eaters , but that is just my take. If anyone has information on this ?

nunyet

The turkeys arent eating chukar eggs. The chukar population is a reflection on the spring nesting and chick rearing conditions.

[Mad Mikey]

This is a complicated issue.

I am convinced the introduction of a non-native species(turkeys) has been severely detrimental with respect to the grouse populations.

Turkeys will eat anything and you bet they are eating grouse eggs and killing the young.

A friend of mine shot a coyote on his property last year and left it to rot. The turkeys came out and devoured it. They ain't too picky.

I've been waiting for someone to bring this up and I may get flamed for my take on it but I can deal with it.

The turkeys are prevalent in the riparian areas where the ruffed grouse reside and also frequent the high ridges in Blue grouse country.

During my predator hunts at 5-6K foot elevation in the middle of Winter I encountered turkeys and saw their tracks all over the place.

About 20+ years ago ODFW introduced turkeys to the state. At first, it was a bust. THEN they put the Rio-Grande and the Merriam's together. The two breeds complimented each other quite well.

One breed was a prolific breeder and the other was a highly skilled roosting machine, keeping it's young high in the tree above predators.


The populations exploded and ODFW began planting them all over the state.

Grouse populations are cyclical, usually 7-9 years. I dealt with that through the late 80's and mid 90's but for some reason the grousing(especially Blues in NEO) gets worse every year, no matter how great the forecast comes down from ODFW.

IMO, the introduction of turkeys is the culprit since that is the only thing that has changed since the 80's.

No, there's plenty of food for all parties and plenty of territory to share.

BUT, turkeys push out the grouse.

I'm out there enough, even in the off-season, checking out the blue grouse families.

Spots once alive with ruffed grouse and blues are devoid of anything but turkey crap.

Don't get me wrong, I love hunting gobblers but they really don't belong here if they are displacing native birds.

Unfortunately the ODFW has found a cash cow with turkey tags. With the depressed stocks of big game due to predators they had to find another revenue source.

How convenient.

Let's hope the wolves coming over the border take care of these damned turkeys!

[duckboy]

I have noticed sharp declines in grouse (blues and ruffs in NEO and w central idaho over the last 3 years.

I also noticed many more turkeys this year, and tons more Hawks and falcons. Like 5 or 6 times the number I would see in previous years.

Hope the blues come back... I'd hate to think I killed em all.

[STRUTTIN-1]

Originally Posted by Mad Mikey

This is a complicated issue.

I am convinced the introduction of a non-native species(turkeys) has been severely detrimental with respect to the grouse populations.

Turkeys will eat anything and you bet they are eating grouse eggs and killing the young.

A friend of mine shot a coyote on his property last year and left it to rot. The turkeys came out and devoured it. They ain't too picky.

I've been waiting for someone to bring this up and I may get flamed for my take on it but I can deal with it.

The turkeys are prevalent in the riparian areas where the ruffed grouse reside and also frequent the high ridges in Blue grouse country.

During my predator hunts at 5-6K foot elevation in the middle of Winter I encountered turkeys and saw their tracks all over the place.

About 20+ years ago ODFW introduced turkeys to the state. At first, it was a bust. THEN they put the Rio-Grande and the Merriam's together. The two breeds complimented each other quite well.

One breed was a prolific breeder and the other was a highly skilled roosting machine, keeping it's young high in the tree above predators.


The populations exploded and ODFW began planting them all over the state.

Grouse populations are cyclical, usually 7-9 years. I dealt with that through the late 80's and mid 90's but for some reason the grousing(especially Blues in NEO) gets worse every year, no matter how great the forecast comes down from ODFW.

IMO, the introduction of turkeys is the culprit since that is the only thing that has changed since the 80's.

No, there's plenty of food for all parties and plenty of territory to share.

BUT, turkeys push out the grouse.

I'm out there enough, even in the off-season, checking out the blue grouse families.

Spots once alive with ruffed grouse and blues are devoid of anything but turkey crap.

Don't get me wrong, I love hunting gobblers but they really don't belong here if they are displacing native birds.

Unfortunately the ODFW has found a cash cow with turkey tags. With the depressed stocks of big game due to predators they had to find another revenue source.

How convenient.

Let's hope the wolves coming over the border take care of these damned turkeys!

Interesting.Never heard of turkeys eating birds.Possible if they are pecking for food and peck an egg I guess.With alot of turkeys coming over from Idaho the population is growing faster then the ODFW expected.I will researve coment but will research what turkeys will and wont eat.Are you sure it was not a Turkey vulture that devouerd that carcase? Bugs ,seeds ect never heard they eat meat.I would imagine they may run off birds but eat them.???I am speachless.


If that is the case well maybe in the future will be able to score more tags.

With more wolves coming over going to more than turkeys gettin eatin.:frown:

[baltz526]

crows and magpies are the egg eaters, crows are terrible on the grouse population. they are also eating lots of turkey eggs and chukar eggs and sage grouse eggs also. fewer crows would be a good thing

[Limbhanger]

Im not buying the egg eating theory. Also, the Merriams and Rio's dont compliment each other in any way. The Merriams plants have not done well due to predation and lack of Merriam habitat. There are a few pockets of them around in the higher elevations, but not many. The biggest reason in Oregon that merriams have not taken well is because when their nests get destroyed by skunks, coons, coyotes etc and they will NOT re-nest. Rio's on the other hand are much more adaptable in a variety of habitats and will re-nest regularly if the clutch is destroyed. That is why you see so many different age classes of poults through the summer. The bulk majority of a turkey's diet in the spring and summer is insects. They have no sense of smell and would have a difficult time finding a grouse nest. No bang for the buck so to speak looking for grouse nests when there are bugs around. As far as Chukar go, they don't even share the same habitat in the spring.
Grouse populations are cyclic...both blues and ruffed. ODFW has been studying this for years using the wing collection barrels.

[Bait Bucket]

Originally Posted by Irish Pennant

A couple of hunting camp questions. Do turkeys compete for the same resources as the grouse? Will an expanding population of turkey effect the population of grouse?

There's lots of studies on this very subject conducted in the Northeast. You'll have to google for specifics.

[TURKEYSLAYER]

I am not buying Wild Turkeys compete with Grouse. There are lots of studies done on this topic. The Turkey will eat anything slow enough to catch and small enough to swallow, but other bird eggs.
In the spring I hear Grouse drumming right along with the Turkeys Gobbling they seem to co-habituate just fine.

NWTF Rumor page...

http://www.nwtf.org/tips_adventures/...res.php?id=250

"RUMOR—The reason grouse and quail populations have decreased is because the turkeys are eating grouse and quail young.
This may sound ridiculous, and it is, but we continue to receive calls and letters accusing turkeys of eating quail and grouse chicks and causing the smaller fowls’ population to drop. It is true that quail and grouse populations in some regions have declined over the last two decades. At the same time, wild turkey populations have dramatically increased.
Loss of quail habitat is the reason for their population decline, especially in the Southeast. The same holds true with grouse, which require young, early-successional forests. Currently, many of our forests are older and offer limited grouse habitat. Wild turkeys, in contrast, use all habitat types from early successional forest to older, late-successional forests. The poor quail and grouse populations is a function of habitat, not wild turkeys eating their chicks."

You might want to take a look at this web page also
Merriam’s have been in Oregon since 1961. and the Rio since 1975

http://www.dfw.state.or.us/agency/co...l/J_2_plan.pdf

turkeyslayer

[STRUTTIN-1]

Called 3 bios today.Got ahold of Turkrey fed.NO turkeys do not eat eggs.They may compete for nesting sites.They cohabitate just fine.NO turkeys are not cornivorous.They will not devour a carcas.Maybe the maggots or bugs.The boi in La Grand said they have a great hatch this year.Some of the Rios nested 3 times.

[Abalone]

Everything in the wild Cycles up and down Grouse are no exception.

Some years there are lots of them and some year not.

[Limbhanger]

Originally Posted by STRUTTIN-1

Called 3 bios today.Got ahold of Turkrey fed.NO turkeys do not eat eggs.They may compete for nesting sites.They cohabitate just fine.NO turkeys are not cornivorous.They will not devour a carcas.Maybe the maggots or bugs.The boi in La Grand said they have a great hatch this year.Some of the Rios nested 3 times.

You cant get worms from eating cookie dough either

[MossyOarReelCreek]

Turkeys are cannibals!!!! Turkeys eat their young! Turkeys do their own taxes! Turkeys are addicted to reality TV!!!

[raptorschild]

Turkey's and CHukars do certainly inhabit the same areas in the spring. I can show you if you'd like.


Other than that. I'm not buying the Turkey eating chukars theory. There could be about 1 million other explanations.

[Mad Mikey]

Originally Posted by Limbhanger

Im not buying the egg eating theory. Also, the Merriams and Rio's dont compliment each other in any way. The Merriams plants have not done well due to predation and lack of Merriam habitat. There are a few pockets of them around in the higher elevations, but not many. The biggest reason in Oregon that merriams have not taken well is because when their nests get destroyed by skunks, coons, coyotes etc and they will NOT re-nest. Rio's on the other hand are much more adaptable in a variety of habitats and will re-nest regularly if the clutch is destroyed. That is why you see so many different age classes of poults through the summer. The bulk majority of a turkey's diet in the spring and summer is insects. They have no sense of smell and would have a difficult time finding a grouse nest. No bang for the buck so to speak looking for grouse nests when there are bugs around. As far as Chukar go, they don't even share the same habitat in the spring.
Grouse populations are cyclic...both blues and ruffed. ODFW has been studying this for years using the wing collection barrels.

Thanks for the correction Limbhanger. I trusted the person who told me about the Merriam's/Rio Grandes since he was involved in a project near Flora.

I'm not the only one over here who has noticed this, we don't believe the "studies" because we are seeing overwhelming numbers of turkeys and less and less grouse.

So what's to blame?

Could be climate change, low to no snowpack with wet Springs are not good for grouse.

Increases in other predator numbers? A possibility for sure.

Grouse have been dealing with the above for eons, but haven't been dealing with turkeys for too long.

I've been hunting grouse for 25 years in NEO so I should have been witness to several "cycles", I know that is true about grouse. Seems like the ruffeds did OK this year but the Blues have not and haven't been for years, it just gets worse each season.

There are several riparian zones alongside small creeks in the Starkey unit that are now completely devoid of ruffed grouse. These are places we had to hike to, not drive and believe me, 99.9% of folks around here wouldn't dream of getting 5 ft. away from their truck to hunt a ruffed grouse.

I'll even name one of them, Whitehorse Cr. that goes into the GR river a half mile above Spool Cart campground. Haven't see a Ruffed in there for over ten years but the turkeys sure have the run of the place.

Used to be we had to keep ourselves from killing the "road" birds on the way to the hunting spot just so we could walk around and actually "hunt" them(Blues).

I guess I could give you guys the phone number of my friend who sat in his kitchen and watched the turkeys chew up a coyote carcass mid Winter, but I doubt he'd appreciate it. I didn't believe it myself either but Don has always been a straight shooter(he's 64) . I guess if a Bio told you they don't do that, it didn't happen?

A bio is not going to tell you something that is not in the best interest of their employer, IMO.

I hope it is something else.

I dig turkeys, but even with all the "studies" I am not convinced the turkeys aren't hurting the grouse populations, even much more seasoned hunters than I are likewise convinced.

[nunyet]

In the last ten years the turkey population has exploded in hells canyon, they use the same area as the mountain quail and chuckars also you could hike up almost any drainage and find grouse ... now not so much ...The habitat has not changed . Wet springs or a bad winter has always had a bad influence on production , but is usually followed by a good late summer hatch.... not the last two years.....The best chuckar hatch is up the salmon where the turkeys are not as thick...remember the same biologists that put the small mouth in the john day claimed they did not bother the salmon and and steelhead smolts. I think in the south they are blaming turkey for some of the decline in bobwhites ..

nunyet

[duckboy]

Here are my observations from 1998 to present.

In NEO, I have seen areas that once held large numbers of Blues and Ruffs (specifically around Ukiah, up through Starkey along the G.R. river, Near Troy on the Wenaha, and along the breaks of the Snake River) turn into turkey hotbeds.

I have noticed that in the last 9 years or so, the places I used to be able to flush 4 to 6 Coveys of grouse in a morning are now putting up appx 2-3 birds in an entire day of heavy duty brush busting.


I have also noticed a large amount of Turkey sign and activity in these very same areas.

I like turkeys, but I can not help but sense that the places I used to really get into the grouse are no longer putting up anything but turkeys.

Turkeys are a once a year bird to me, but grouse used to be a season long "shootfest" with lots of action and plenty of birds for the dogs to flush..

Not that way this year, or last year, or the year before.