slamming on guides

ampersat · 08-05-2001, 05:14 PM

as promised, here's the 'slamming on guides' thread.

for all you guides out there, don't get ****** at me for starting this; i'm just trying to keep the 'oregon fishing club' thread on topic. i'm giving people a place to vent their feelings on this specific issue.

guides are out there making a living on the water and they are perfectly within their legal rights to do so, like it or not. we all have to make a living and support our families. a lot of us have jobs that would run counter to someone else's belief systems.

many of us have turned to them from time to time in our pursuit of fish. sometimes, it's the guy or gal who only makes it out once a year to fish and is willing to pay the price to enjoy having the "bend as their friend." sometimes, it's one of us exploring a different kind of fishing. one of these days, i'll probably shell out the cash to have someone drift me down the river, just to see what it's like.

i fish around jack's snack and tackle on the sandy from time to time. it's public land and the holes around there are pretty decent and it's usually not too crowded. one day, i was fishing upstream from there. i was after this one fish that kept rolling at the end of a tailout. after five minutes of casting at him, here comes jack and his sled full of clients. he jetted right through the hole i was fishing without even slowing down. needless to say, i wasn't too happy about it. figuring that any fish in the hole were spooked after that, i packed up my gear and headed out to another spot on the river. it was a drag that he rolled his boat right through where i was fishing, but what could i do? he was within his legal right to come through there. (i'd originally written 'my spot' instead of 'where i was fishing' two sentences back; this highlights the core of this thread - just because we're the first one to a hole doesn't mean we own it!)

on the other hand, i was there on another day, fishing under the bridge and saw jack land his boat in the bend just above me. he had four clients on and pulled one fish from the fish box, a nice looking chinook. these guys had paid good money hoping to have 'the bend as their friend' yet they only went home with one fish among them. one guy got to experience what we all long for - that throb in the rod as the fish turns and runs for cover. when he's trying to get folks into fish, he's trying to get them what they paid for: a fish. if these guys just wanted to spend some time in the great outdoors with their buddies, they could have done that for free somewhere else. they paid to get put into fish and they expect the guide to do it. he's working to satisfy his clients. if he can't produce, he'll soon be out of business. because of this, sometimes he's a little less considerate to the guy standing on the bank. he could've gunned his engines down when he pulled through the hole i was fishing the time before. however, he's focused on getting his clients into fish.

bottom line: don't blame the guides. if you have a problem with guides plowing through your favorite spots, what you really have is a problem with is the guiding industry as a whole. if there is an economic opportunity, someone will fill it. frankly, we're lucky to have guides out there who actually care, for the most part. blame the clients for paying and blame the government that allows guiding to exist as an industry. the guide is simply doing his best to produce the product that he's selling.

whitewaterbill · 08-05-2001, 05:44 PM

That was great...thanks for the "insite" into guides.

I personally have no problem with them and find most of them very helpful and curtious.

They provide a great service to those that use guides and don't fish without them.

I fish a lot and still like to go with them when I can.

Like all of the people that fish....there are good guys and bad guys. I get much more irate at gum-balls....that don't know the drill ...than a guide that does. I know he is working and unless he asks me to do something totally stupid....I give him some room and fish along side him. Have learned a lot from them and feel they deserve a little repect for the hard work they put in.

Thanks.. to you that have shared and you know who you are......

Bill

Stz ll · 08-05-2001, 05:59 PM

I agree with Bill. I also like to fish with guides at times. I also find them mostly quite curteous and helpful. When I want to learn a new or different area I will usually go with a guide. I have fished with Jack Glass before when we have stopped to help a bank fisherman get his fish. The fish was to big for the guy to control from the bank. Jack picked him up took in the boat to land his fish. Not exactly the act of some rude guide.

One more thing, When I used to fish on the bank I liked it when a boat would come thru a hole. Quite often they would stir up the fish and within a few minutes I would often get a strike.

Pete
[img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

SteelieSteve · 08-05-2001, 06:41 PM

I too have fished the Sandy while Jack was on the river and Never have I seen him be discourteous to other boaters as long as he had space to go around them. He's one of best as far as i'm concerned. Perhaps he had to go through the hole because of low water? Just my .02

Smily · 08-05-2001, 07:10 PM

Since we're speaking about Jack and he's not here to defend himself, I need to speak up. One day we were fishing this hole and right before the hole, It got quite shallow. Well, he come barelling right at us and I thought I gave him enough room to get by but with a Jet boat, he said he needs the speed to get over the shallow spots incase he hits bottom, he needs momentum to get his boat pass the shallow stuff. This is probably why he didn't slow down for you in that hole you were fishing. I think the area you described he has the same situation of getting thru the shallow stuff. After he dropped off his clients I seen him again and asked him If I gave him enough room and he said he said yes but he was going a little too fast. We were okay but a little concerned out there. I have been out there many times and fished holes I know he was trying to get in and he always let me fish thru. He was very courteous out there as he does have a reputation to uphold. Me, as a drifter can only go one way. That's usually down river.
He always works a hole but does move around to find more fish than sit in a hole for the whole time out there for his clients. I would hope he would show the same respect for Bankies as well.

I like following guides around because they have a lot more time on the river and will have gotten to know that river better than anyone else out there. More than likely or sooner you will watch them bring in a fish and show you where there at. Some of the best advice I got from this board was to hire a guide and even though we only got into one Native Steelhead that was realeased unharmed I learned a great deal on fishing not in that river alone but other rivers as well. I had learned his techinques and apply them to where I go and have gotten into fish. With out the guides and hands on experience I will still problably be getting skunked still. That was money well spent.

What STZ ll said about stirring up the fish worked for me one particular afternoon. It wasn't Jack but another Sled and as soon as he went by, Bingo, Bango, Bongo, Fish on. That was a good day. I landed a Springer there and other people watched me land a fish. That spot was now exposed as I thought I was the only one who new hpw to fish it at that time.

By the way, I never fished with Jack, My cousin did and Jack got him into fish. He had a good time with Jack's service. I have Fished with Barry Buckland of Sandy River Guide service and he taught me well. I would recommend either one for fishing on the Sandy. That's about all I can say for guide services. I hope to go with another Service soon just for the experience of learning how and where to get into fish. [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

[img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Smily [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

FM2 · 08-05-2001, 07:29 PM

Guides have as much right to be on the river, bays or wherever as people have driving their cars on the roads.

I am not a guide nor would I want to be one. I have fished Oregon for over 20 years and have met many guides and some of my friends are guides. I think their are some that are questionable just as there are questionable people in any industry. The guides are a fertile resource in this region as they provide great services to the average person and also are vocal and active in many of the organizations that support NW fishing. I think it's a tough job to be a guide and not as glamorous as thinking "fishing everday would be great" but rather guides work VERY hard in their chosen profession. We need to give them space just as they do others within their respective industries.

I'm sorry to see any slamming of guides as they have a huge impact on the fish we catch. Guides deserve alot of credit and don't let the small percentage ruin it for the larger !!!

08-05-2001, 07:40 PM

Ampersat, since I have experienced not being a guide, then being a guide, then not being a guide again [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img] , I would like to give you some perspective I've learned and believe in. First, I agree with the guys that say boats more often stir fish up than spook them out - especially if they are moving thru fast on plane rather than a slow gurgling pass thru that keeps the motor over the fish longer. So be content with them passing thru quickly on a plane, and expect a bite soon after instead of leaving. The other factor here that many fishermen just aren't aware of is the wake of a jetlsed on highspeed plane is smaller than the wake of a slower moving jetsled (except if it crawls very slowly on idle, which is an unrealistic expectation and longer disruption anyway). Guys anchored in driftboats or wading remember this smaller highspeed wake factor before you naively flip sledders off next time - unless they pass much closer to you than they need to (which is unusual). ...

As Bill aluded to, professional behaving ethical guides deserve our respect. But they do not deserve special rights! Unfortunately, some of them wrongly think they do and push people out of spots one way or the other, and that's not ethical - or even reasonable, despite them getting paid by clients. Guides are using publicly owned resources (rivers) and publicly paid for resourses (fish). It is a privilage that they are allowed to make money fishing on our resouces, not a superior right! This is what I believed and acted like when I was guiding full time; as do the proper professional behaving guides now.

RT

FISHRUS · 08-05-2001, 08:37 PM

I know Jack Glass and fished with him too. He always helps out people on the bank, by picking them up and helping them net their fish. He is one of the most courteous guides ,I've seen around. Jack, always lets us fish a hole and never cuts us off from a fishing hole. Jack is the first to help out another fisherman when they need help. In fact,there are a few fisherman out there, that he helped recover their driftboats when they sank in the Sandy. He lobbies for fishing issues that support the fisherman. Jack is the best around! [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

fishchaser · 08-05-2001, 08:47 PM

I agree with Bill and Pete. I have been fishing with Jack a few times. I consider him a friend. If you have been in Jack's boat you will see that most of the time he is not running a pump. He is running a prop he has mounted on a transom jack, that lifts the motor up out of the water. He does this to conserve on fuel. He can't get into 3' of water.

This year I bet he is running his pump due to low water conditions. You have to remember that a jet boat can plane in 6" of water. But if he comes off that plane he takes up just about 3' of water. BIG difference. If he came off a plane in shallow water he would be beached in the sand bar.

Jack is probably one of the nicest and most eticate consious man around. He has to live on the river and serve the public. He is in the public eye, day in and day out. What ever he does reflects on his guide buisness and his coffee buisness. He wouldn't do something unless he absolutely had to do it and there was no other way around.

You don't have to agree with me, just my $.2 cents worth. If it's worth that much.

Tilla · 08-05-2001, 09:17 PM

If I am not mistaken, Jack was actively involved in the political fight to keep the Sandy River in the hatchery fish program. That would have benefited anyone that would want to fish the Sandy in the future. The Sandy was being considered as a native only river.
Many guides dedicate thier time and services that benefit everyone. I am not saying they are all so generous, but many of them are.

SandySteel · 08-05-2001, 09:56 PM

I can only say ditto to all of the positive comments about Jack. He is a saint among guides. He is the standard that all guides should aspire to.

I will say this about guides and anglers in general. Everyone is different. I have had some very positive experiences around guides and some negative experiences. Some are, as RT explained, of the opinion that they have special rights and will try to push you out of a hole. However, most are humble and helpful. Most contribute to the streams and places that they make a living on. A few will simply just show up with clients and take what they can without concern for what is happening locally.
It is a tough living. Long hours, picky clients with high expectations, expensive equipment, and unpredictable fisheries all add up to a pretty high stress job and there are a lot of people who ask a great deal of them outside of their job.(And you thought your job downtown was tough.) I don't envy them.

So let me say this. Don't let a negative experience with a guide set your attitude about all guides. Each one is different.

Gone Fishin · 08-05-2001, 10:26 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> So let me say this. Don't let a negative experience with a guide set your attitude about all guides. Each one is different.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Right-On Eric!

MasterCaster · 08-06-2001, 12:02 AM

Ok Im just giving my .02 so just skip me and go on reading.

Of all the guides I have met, I have never paid anyone to help me catch a fish but I have met a few guides on the coastal rivers I fish and they have been very nice and helpful. I only had one bad experience with a "guide". That was on the Nestucca below the mouth of Three Rivers, He pulled up his drift boat right infront of my friend and I while our lines were in the water and began fishing. We had a little "discussion" and he got very rude. So rude that one of his "clients" just shrugged his shoulders and said sorry as they went on down river.

Now if you ask me when the client thinks he has to apologize because the guied was rude that is one guide that does not belong in the business.

Just to clear one thing up. I have never seen that "guide" around any coast river since. So he probly wasnt even a guide but thought if he claimed to be I would leave.

No it wasnt Marty. I have actually talked for a few minutes with Marty and he seems to be one of the nicest guides I have ever met. Im not sure if you remember or not but I was at Three Rivers helping take Fall Chinook out for the hatchery last year around Cedar Creek and down river. Im the younger guy "23" that was in the middle of the river holding the net. It was very nice meeting you and hope to see you there again this fall! I know Ill be there.

well enough of my jabberin' just my .02

thanx for your time
Jon [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img] [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

ampersat · 08-06-2001, 06:28 AM

[img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

this was not meant to be a slam on jack himself. i've talked with him several times. he's a very nice guy and very helpful. i'm hardly surprised that he picks up bank anglers to help them land their fish. he has a great reputation in the community as well as his industry.

jack glass is a great guy! i have absolutely no problems with him. i was simply referring to him to provide an example of a situation i experienced while fishing.

i had assumed that blowing through the hole would've spooked fish, not stir them up into biting. i understand that he needs to keep his sled up on plane to make it through. it was a very low water situation and had he slowed down he probably would've beached in the middle of the river.

hustlerrjim · 08-06-2001, 08:47 AM

The guiding industry I have to agree has a few goof balls but jack glass isn't one of them.
The guiding industry in oregon is run by independent operators,with no set of rules and guide lines in which to operate,each guide goes merrily on his way doing what he or she thinks right,but the bottom line is to catch fish,or they perish.
how they go about this is what causes the problem,
Getting up at 4;00 in the morning to get to the best holes first is a common factor, which has led to sleeping in their boats to get the best holes,this is becoming a common practice on a lot of coastal
rivers.
We had this problem with jet boats on the nehalem rivers,to level the playing feild we petioned the marine board to ban jets on these rivers,this was so popular it spread to most coastal rivers,this leveled the playing field until a few guides started using electric motors to gain an advantage,if you dont beleive this ;try the trask or nestucca rivers about 5:00 some spring morning.
I am a strong advocate of getting rid of all artificial power on the coastal rivers,we dont need two way traffic on the river.or somebody with a huge electric jumping the holes ahead of you this is a big problem,and can be resolved through legislation.
Of course there are going to be problems,in any user groups but we should ask our selves what we have done to **** off a few guides?
I fish the heritage fish along each fall; this money is used to enhance the n. coast fishery,and I have seen a lot of animosity toward the guides even toward good ol' loveable jim====so it works both ways,
bill hedlund and I testified at the hearings in salem to keep the hatcherys open suprisingly there were some guides there that gave up trips to testify ,this carried the ball for us, and the hatcherys will stay open.so they do support the source of there income
Ask your self what have you done to support the fishery??????????????????????

Jennie@ifish · 08-06-2001, 09:15 AM

AMEN
I have posted numerous times about legislative functions that need to be attended, but few take notice.
Thanks, Jim.... Gotta love ya!
And hats off to Bill and the others too!
Jen

boater · 08-06-2001, 05:14 PM

why would a guide join the OFC, dont they fish out of boats ? pretty smart plan if you ask me.

OR Coast Range · 08-06-2001, 05:47 PM

slamming on guides

Your mother wears combat boots!

Firedog · 08-06-2001, 07:34 PM

Guides are just like everyone else, you have a few bad apples that give the rest of them a bad name. Most guides are great guys. Being personable is good for business and if you dont have people skill's you wont last so the majority are very friendly on the river and helpful. Jack Glass is probaly one of the nicest guys, guide or not you will run into on the river. I have never fished with Jack but have spent a fair amount of time talking with him since my fishing partner is good friends with him and he is nothing but nice. Jack will tell you where and what the fish are biting and he doesnt get out on the water at the crack of dawn he lets the morning rush get over then hits the water and still outfishes most around. If Jack isnt catching fish they arent going to be cauhgt most of the time. Cut the gudies a little slack they are earning a living and work hard at it, the ones that are a**'s wont be around long anyway. to much compition out there.