Tumble loaded ammo?

[541 Native son]

Hello all - I have heard that it is a bad idea to tumble loaded rounds and also that it makes no difference. Anyone have a definitive answer for or against? I HATE digging media out of bottleneck cases! I have a Hornady vibratory cleaner rather than an actual tumbler (if that makes a difference) and I use ground cob or ground nut shells. Thanks in advance for any advice! Ken

[Don Becker]

I think most folks are going to tell you it's not a great idea. Until recently, I didn't even use a tumbler/vibrator. Once I got one, I did run some of my existing handloads through to brighten them up. For the most-part, it was fine. Most of us probably don't crimp hunting rifle ammo - - so, a couple actually lost the projectile and powder and in a couple others, the bullets worked their way partially out - - - yea, I know that's an indication the die wasn't set-up correctly and I've taken care of it now. I did recheck the oal on all of them.

I will not be making that a regular practice and that's what I suspect you are actually contemplating. Maybe someone will disagree but I think the chance of firing one off is extremely remote. I understand exactly why this idea came to you but, again, I'm thinking most handloaders will probably discourage the practice for (what I perceive as) remote safety considerations and the more probable issues associated with changes to the oal if your bullet does move.

Having said that, 'interesting idea; let's see what others do say. Don

[MossyOarReelCreek]

Originally Posted by Don Becker

I think most folks are going to tell you it's not a great idea. Until recently, I didn't even use a tumbler/vibrator. Once I got one, I did run some of my existing handloads through to brighten them up. For the most-part, it was fine. Most of us probably don't crimp hunting rifle ammo - - so, a couple actually lost the projectile and powder and in a couple others, the bullets worked their way partially out - - - yea, I know that's an indication the die wasn't set-up correctly and I've taken care of it now. I did recheck the oal on all of them.

I will not be making that a regular practice and that's what I suspect you are actually contemplating. Maybe someone will disagree but I think the chance of firing one off is extremely remote. I understand exactly why this idea came to you but, again, I'm thinking most handloaders will probably discourage the practice for (what I perceive as) remote safety considerations and the more probable issues associated with changes to the oal if your bullet does move.

Having said that, 'interesting idea; let's see what others do say. Don

[Hunt'nFish]

Yeah Don, not a great idea. Tarnished cartridges shoot just fine.

But the main issue is that the tumbling process can actually remove the powder's burn rate deterant and make the powder burn A WHOLE LOT FASTER......until.....BOOM! Pressures sky rocket and something gives way.
Don't do it.
Hunt'nFish

[SummerRun Slayer]

Originally Posted by Hunt'nFish

Yeah Don, not a great idea. Tarnished cartridges shoot just fine.

But the main issue is that the tumbling process can actually remove the powder's burn rate deterant and make the powder burn A WHOLE LOT FASTER......until.....BOOM! Pressures sky rocket and something gives way.
Don't do it.
Hunt'nFish

Very Interesting Info...

I would like to know what the "powders burn rate deterant" is and how it works...

Thanks in advance.
Joe

[Don Becker]

Originally Posted by SummerRun Slayer

Very Interesting Info...

I would like to know what the "powders burn rate deterant" is and how it works...

Thanks in advance.
Joe

Me too. 'Sounds like the powder is coated with a protective substance that controls its burn rate and tumbling/vibrating will cause it to rub off the individual granules?????? If that's about right, how much tumbling/vibrating is it likely to take to make a difference - - if that can even be answered . . . Don

[Hunt'nFish]

Joe, it's a coating the powder makers put on a base powder to make it burn slower. Some have it...like many of the rifle powders, and some don't.

Powder makers control the burn rate of a base powder by using a variety of methods. Deterants is one, grain size & shape are others. Some even have little holes extruded into each grain like a honey comb to increase surface area. The amount of surface area in relation to it's volume greatly affects a given powders burn rate.

With "BALL" powders, mfg'ers will make a batch of a certain base powder recipe and then screen size it. Small grains go into one canister label and large grains into another label. Some may even get run through a machine to squash the little balls of powder making them look like tiny thick pancakes. Of course they know EXACTLY what they are doing and all this is porpellant science 101 to them. but interesting stuff for us.

Here is a link to Hodgdons "Relative Burn Rate Chart"

No it doesn't tell you anything about which have deterants and which don't but it at least lists the burn rate order.
Hope this helps,
Hunt'nFish

PS: Don, how much tumbling it would take is unknown. But I'm sure it would be progressive.

[spinner53]

i go thru a lot of .45acp and i once tumbled some to shine up the brass = a waste of time., but i was giving them away and wanted them to look good.
I did recently tumble some .223, the projectiles are pulled 55 gr tracers ( advertized as only 20% will light). they had this black sealer still on them and it flaked off during the seating process. so this was just 10 minutes in the corn to clean them up. ( 1000 pieces for $ 25.00 works for plinking )

other wise i would tumble them before doing anything elsse to them, i just tumble to clean, as was mentioned,,, tarnished brash works fine.

[dla]

Originally Posted by 541 Native son

Hello all - I have heard that it is a bad idea to tumble loaded rounds and also that it makes no difference. Anyone have a definitive answer for or against? I HATE digging media out of bottleneck cases! I have a Hornady vibratory cleaner rather than an actual tumbler (if that makes a difference) and I use ground cob or ground nut shells. Thanks in advance for any advice! Ken

Tumble all you want, it won't hurt a thing. But unless you are doing a zillion rounds it is probably easier to wipe off case lube with a little alcohol.

I started using crushed corncob animal bedding which was too big to get into the case - I don't like digging it out either. I bought it at the local feed & seed store. I add a couple tablespoons of denatured alcohol to the media before I start the tumbler and it gathers the dust to the sides of the bowl and leaves the brass shinier.

[Don Becker]

Originally Posted by dla

Tumble all you want, it won't hurt a thing. . . .

'Seems obvious you disagree with the cautions discussed above. I take no issue with you. But, it sure would be helpful if you would explain why you disagree with those saying not to tumble/vibrate loaded ammo. 'Puzzled and would like to know more . . . . Thanks. Don

[baltz526]

some 0000 steel wool will shine up your loaded ammo. a load of powder with air space for the powder to work against each other, while in the tumbler would be a potentially bad thing. a full case of powder, i do not think it would be an issue for a quick tumble.

[baltz526]

ps: the powder companys would frown on it

[Don Becker]

Originally Posted by baltz526

some 0000 steel wool will shine up your loaded ammo. a load of powder with air space for the powder to work against each other, while in the tumbler would be a potentially bad thing. a full case of powder, i do not think it would be an issue for a quick tumble.

I agree and that makes sense to me, consistent with what Mike (Hunt'nFish) said. But, unless I'm misreading, 541 Native son, is asking about routinely handloading and then tumbling/vibrating so he gets nice clean handloads without the hassle of getting the media back out of the empty cartridges . . .


And, this, I'm still wondering about.

Originally Posted by dla

Tumble all you want, it won't hurt a thing. . . .

Don

[541 Native son]

Hello Don - Yes, I am asking specifically about cleaning the handloads after they are assembled.
I have been told that the ammo manufacturers give their rounds a quick run through a polisher before boxing to make sure they are clean and shiny. I haven't bought (or shot, for that matter) a box of factory ammo (except for .22 LR) in well over 20 years, so I don't know if new factory ammo looks shiny or not.
I never used to polish my brass, clean primer pockets, trim necks or check COAL. Now I do all those things and my groups are better. I know it makes no difference to the group size if the brass is shiny or not, but I still do it. Maybe it is a point of pride in the assembled product or my just being fussy.
Thanks to everyone who has taken the time to read and respond to my question! Ken

Originally Posted by Don Becker

I agree and that makes sense to me, consistent with what Mike (Hunt'nFish) said. But, unless I'm misreading, 541 Native son, is asking about routinely handloading and then tumbling/vibrating so he gets nice clean handloads without the hassle of getting the media back out of the empty cartridges . . .


And, this, I'm still wondering about.



Don

[Don Becker]

Originally Posted by 541 Native son

Hello Don - Yes, I am asking specifically about cleaning the handloads after they are assembled.
I have been told that the ammo manufacturers give their rounds a quick run through a polisher before boxing to make sure they are clean and shiny. I haven't bought (or shot, for that matter) a box of factory ammo (except for .22 LR) in well over 20 years, so I don't know if new factory ammo looks shiny or not.
I never used to polish my brass, clean primer pockets, trim necks or check COAL. Now I do all those things and my groups are better. I know it makes no difference to the group size if the brass is shiny or not, but I still do it. Maybe it is a point of pride in the assembled product or my just being fussy.
Thanks to everyone who has taken the time to read and respond to my question! Ken

'Lot like me - - - I handload for everything I own except for .22 rimfire and 12ga slugs. I think, for me, it's been more than 20 years since I shot anything else that was factory loaded. For years, I'd rough-clean my cases with steel wool and soak them in a solution of lemon and joy detergent and I was satisfied with that. But, a couple of years ago, I found a used vibrator polisher for the right price at the gun show and I've been polishing ever since - - - I still don't polish it to a high shine as some do, though. But, I think you're correct, there is an element of pride in having them look better - - - "nope," they don't shoot differently.

[dla]

Originally Posted by Don Becker

'Seems obvious you disagree with the cautions discussed above. I take no issue with you. But, it sure would be helpful if you would explain why you disagree with those saying not to tumble/vibrate loaded ammo. 'Puzzled and would like to know more . . . . Thanks. Don

Shooters and ammo manufacturers have been doing it for years. People have done tests on tumbled and non-tumbled - no difference. A case full of IMR4350 doesn't grind up and become Bullseye, so it's not just me being contrary....

But as I said earlier, unless you are doing large batches, I don't see how tumbling at the end saves any time. I tumble my handgun brass to clean it up before I reload it. No lube used in my handgun process so there's no cleaning required after assembly. I use a lot of nickle-plated brass for rifle, so a quick wipe and it's ready to reload. I use a water-based cable-pulling lubricant for case lube, so there isn't any sticky-residue to clean off after assembly. If I were doing 1000 .223 at a time I'd throw the little buggers in the tumbler at the end to shine them up a bit.

If you have some loaded ammo sitting around that has corroded a bit, you can tumble it but corncobb doesn't seem to be agressive enough to really clean it.

Tumbling doesn't clean off wax-based bullet-lube very well for me. But maybe walnut shell is needed for that.

I use a 500 case capacity Dillion vibratory tumbler/cleaner.

[Don Becker]

Originally Posted by dla

Shooters and ammo manufacturers have been doing it for years. People have done tests on tumbled and non-tumbled - no difference. A case full of IMR4350 doesn't grind up and become Bullseye, so it's not just me being contrary.... . . .

Thanks! I do appreciate the added information. 'Interesting how your information and Mike's seem diametrically opposed and, at the same time, both make logical sense. I'll do a little research myself, when I get the chance. 'Not that it's such a big deal to me but you and Mike have me curious now, Thanks again. Don

[Fish_N_Russ]

Originally Posted by Don Becker

Thanks! I do appreciate the added information. 'Interesting how your information and Mike's seem diametrically opposed and, at the same time, both make logical sense. I'll do a little research myself, when I get the chance. 'Not that it's such a big deal to me but you and Mike have me curious now, Thanks again. Don

actually I totally disagree with the above information, some powders DO INDEED break down if you tumble them....how long it takes, depends and im sure somone out there has found out how long. I have shot rounds that were tumbled for a few hours compared to ones that werent and the pressure was much higher (flattened primers, more recoil). What powders break down, I dont know......and how long to tumble and be safe, I dont know either. But the bottom line is the potential is there so not a good idea.

[541 Native son]

Hello All - A thought occurred to me. I wonder what happens to powder when it is getting transported from the factory to where ever it gets sold? I would assume most powder gets shipped by truck or train and that it gets jostled around a fair amount (and for many hours) on the way to the store or warehouse. Would there be any powder breakdown from transportation?
BTW - just to be safe, I will not clean loaded rounds in my tumbler. Thank you to everyone who has taken the time to read and respond to this thread. Good luck this year, Ken

[Snubber]

541NativeSon,
If someone has told you that the ammo manufacturers tumble their "loaded ammunition" before putting into packaging, I believe this is untrue, expecially today.
Production is far too mechanized today and I having been through the production facility of CCI / Speer and Federal Cartridge Co., I can tell you that the brass or aluminum cases are extruded from raw bar stock on coils and start off bright / shiney from the original step.
This extrusion process does not occur in one step, moreover, may be a 2 -3 step process depending upon the caliber or rifle/pistol cartridge config..
Primer, powder and then case goes through the final bullet seating process and is dropped into large totes.
The loaded rounds are then sent over to packaging where the rounds are shakin a little bit to orient themselves (pistol / rimfire ) into the plastic tray packaging (bullet facing down). There is no media involved in this.
Same holds true for rifle cartridges.

But back to the original question on tumbling: I have done it also, and noticed no differences, however, I feared that some changes would occur and therefore did not tumble very long.
I had also crimped my cases during reloading and had no bullet seating depth changes.
In the future however, I will have no problems shooting slightly tarnished shells. Just means they have seen alot of time in the woods and the bucks have not been big enough!

[dla]

Originally Posted by Fish_N_Russ

actually I totally disagree with the above information, some powders DO INDEED break down if you tumble them....how long it takes, depends and im sure somone out there has found out how long. I have shot rounds that were tumbled for a few hours compared to ones that werent and the pressure was much higher (flattened primers, more recoil). What powders break down, I dont know......and how long to tumble and be safe, I dont know either. But the bottom line is the potential is there so not a good idea.

Coke causes cancer of the private parts too - somebody told me that. It's not worth the risk so I'll stick to black coffee.