From the Record Books

[ommedia]

This sticky thread is intended to provide hunters with a channel to ask questions and gain insight into the various big game record books, the organizations behind them, and trophy animals in general. A wide variety of topics are found throught iFish's hunting forum pertaining to trophy class big game animals.

This is not intended to be a thread on the opinions around "trophy hunting" but rather on the interesting topic of antlers and bone that mystify every hunter. I too believe that any animal can be a trophy based on the experience, however, to honor and recognize these animals to a set of standards is the premise of this thread. Please be advised that threads not pertaining to the objective of this thread will politely be removed.

In our experience, like all things in life, there are misconceptions, myths, and innacurate information in the hunting community about big game records. Hopefully, we can answer your questions and provide interesting conversation about a fun topic.

If you have a scoring "guess" request, please NOTE that it is mearly a best guess based on what we can see in a photo. It does NOT constitute an actual score. As well, we kindly ask that you do not use this thread as a place to "shop" your trophy for a larger score than it has already received officially. A measurer can NOT re-measure an animal that has already been measured. We hope that any use of our estimate on an animal's score, is used as a reference only!

These organizations various organizations have not asked for this thread, nor do the ensure the accuracy of any information provided. Rather, we offer our knowledge and expertise on our own merits as official liasons of the groups which is given to any official measurer.

We will try to answer all related questions within a day or two excluding weekends and holidays.

[Rauly]

Okay guy's here is your chance to get your questions answered by the pro's that do the measuring.

Rauly

[BrianMaguire]

With a Mule deer how important is the brow tine that on a book buck?

What is the min for B&C with Mule deer?

Where do the book bucks come from in Oregon?

What would you guess this buck to be?



Blurry but a front shot


BTW - Thanks a great thread.

[tag-a-long]

I think the typical score has to be 185 to get into the book. I'll look at my book when I get home from work

[ommedia]

BrianMaguire-

The brow tine, or lack there of (either one or both), is OFTEN what takes a buck OUT of a record book. They are very important.

The minimums for Boone & Crockett are:
180 Awards book
190 All-Time Book

The All-time books, such as Records of North American Big Game, 12th Edition, are published every six years and have all trophy listings that meet the All-time minimum score. The Awards books, such as Boone and Crockett Club's 25th Big Game Awards, are published every three years, and have listings of trophies accepted during one, individual, three-year Awards period. The Awards books are considered supplements to the prior editions of the All-time books.

There are dozens of bucks that are in the Oregon Record Book that qualify for B&C that haven't been entered in B&C for some reason. Because I have access to all of the Oregon Record Book data, I do my research from these statistics. The most B&C qualifying (typical frame) mule deer bucks come from: Grant, Wallowa, Baker, Malheur, and Harney Counties.

However, since 1990, these three counties, in addition to the above five counties, have produced very well: Crook, Klamath, and Umatilla.

For non-typical bucks, Grant and Deschutes counties stand out. However, many of those bucks were years ago.

This buck you show here is very difficult to see and judge, because of that I can't even see his G-4's. As far as I can tell he is only a 3pt. He has good height for top class bucks, average width and decent mass. If he is a 4pt, I would guess him to be in the 170 class, but not any higher. I would shoot first and measure him later though

Do note, the minimum for the Oregon Record book, for typical mule deer with a rifle is 170.

Originally Posted by BrianMaguire

With a Mule deer how important is the brow tine that on a book buck?

What is the min for B&C with Mule deer?

Where do the book bucks come from in Oregon?

What would you guess this buck to be?



Blurry but a front shot


BTW - Thanks a great thread.

[Katie Ann II]

this is a roosevelt that a friend of mine was given to him any guess what he would score. i have posted them on here before but got some lower numbers that we came up with

[Ni!]

I'd be interested to see what that scores too. It should be non-typical due to the forked G-2's.

Real nice bull.

[ommedia]

Katie Ann II-

This is an incredible rack regardless of the score. But here is my input...

First to clarify typical vs. non-typical...An animal can be measured as both if it warrents the need. However, most elk are measured as typical frames. In fact, with all deer and elk you measure them just the same, no matter what and if there are considerable amounts of inches (points) of abnormal (non-typical) tines then they are added for a non-typical score, or they are subtracted for a typical score.

Roosevelt have another special "rule" that helps this bull. All points above the G-4 do NOT have a deduction for difference. Meaning, if point 5 is 10 inches on the left side and 15 on the right, you get the full 25 inches, and not just 20 (10 +15 - difference [5]). So, you can see that this bull's left G-5 is shorter than the right side, and there is a G-6 point on the left side...all bonus!

Bad news, the G-1 is broken on the right side, so you lose a good chunk on the difference between left and right for that point.

Finally, the abnormal points off of the G-2's are just that..abnormal(non-typical). So they are a deduction for the typical score, or an addition for the non-typical score. Because they are pretty long (i'm guessing nearly 30" combined), it will be probably best to score this non-typical.

So, that being said, I would GUESS that the scores would be:
300 typical score
340-360 non-typical

I am considering the broken tine, the abnormal points, the short 4ths, and un-judgeable mainbeam length and spread...I gave the main beams 45" and the inside spread 38"....

A hunters Roosevelt dreams that bull is!

Originally Posted by Katie Ann II

this is a roosevelt that a friend of mine was given to him any guess what he would score. i have posted them on here before but got some lower numbers that we came up with

[Duckenfuss]

What are the let-off restrictions regarding archery? If there is a limitation, how is that enforced?

[Jennie@ifish]

What a great opportunity this is! Thank you Onmedia!
Jen

[Trick]

I'd be interested to know what that non-typical mule deer on the wall scores?

[ommedia]

Duckenfuss-

sorry for the delay, I am responding from my PDA off of a ridge while archery elk hunting.

Are your questions regarding the Oregon hunting regulations or the Pope & Young entry requirements?

There are no known restrictions, in Oregon, that I am aware of. There restrictions regarding draw supports. Pope & Young does have a let-off requirement. It reads as follows:

" let-off exceeding sixty-five (65) percent, using the A.M.O. standard method of measurement, will be listed with an asterisk (*) in the Records. For further information, please click here for the "Definition of a Hunting Bow, Arrow and Broadhead" " and is found at: http://www.pope-young.org/fairchase.asp

Good Hunting!

Originally Posted by Duckenfuss

What are the let-off restrictions regarding archery? If there is a limitation, how is that enforced?

[ommedia]

Trick-

Me too! As a measurer, it is a treat (and a nightmare) to measure a buck with non-typical presence. They are far and few between!

Looking at the buck, with the only angle we have, I would GUESS the buck to be in the 180-200 Non-typical scoring range. Although way under the book minimums (unless shot with a bow or muzzleloader), it is a dream of every hunter to take a buck with a handful of kicker points!

That guess could be a bit high...it has nice width, and height for it's G-2's (back most tine), but the brow-tines are small, the back forks are weaker than prefered, and the non-typical (kicker) points do not add up to a lot of inches.

Our family has a large non-typical in the hunting history that we treasure and can tell you it takes a LOT of non-typical points (often more than 40-50 inches) to make the record books.

Remember, or note, that the key to a great non-typical score starts with a great "typical frame". Meaning, The typical frame has to score well before you add on the non-typical points to the score. This buck looks like he has a 160-170 class typical frame at best...the left side G-3, again, is weak. It's hard to see more than 8 or so inches of non-typical points.

Originally Posted by Trick

I'd be interested to know what that non-typical mule deer on the wall scores?

[Katie Ann II]

i think your right around 160 gross the g3s are small on the left side but non-typical its right around 190 there are alot of kickers on the right side it was shot in kansas

[Trick]

Originally Posted by Katie Ann II

i think your right around 160 gross the g3s are small on the left side but non-typical its right around 190 there are alot of kickers on the right side it was shot in kansas

Interesting buck to say the least.....Thanks....and good call on the score Ommedia!

Katie Anne....how about another shot of that wall....looks like a nice whitetail hanging there too?

[Smokin'Bulls]

onmedia this is a very cool thread, thanks a lot for taking the time to answer our questions!

[Take EM]

Heard through the grape vine that a buck was taken around Boardman yesterday w/ a 33" spread and apprx 17" tines.
SCORED 205
anyone else hear that?

[StevenB]

Originally Posted by ommedia

The minimums for Boone & Crockett are:
180 Awards book
190 All-Time Book

I didn't know that Boone & Crockett had two different minimums. I also thought that the typical mule deer minimum was raised to 195. I see by the B&C website that it is at 190 as you stated.

I just tried reading the B&C website to answer some questions. Here are some questions I couldn't find answers to.

What are the fees for an entry in the awards and the all time book.

In 1972 I took a mule deer in the Silver Lake unit. I tried scoring it at the time but didn't get it scored by someone who was very experienced till about 25 years later. It scored 186 5/8 or so. ( See Typical Mule Deer Steven Berglund in the Oregon record book. )

I'm interested in getting the antlers scored for entry in the Awards Book if the cost for the entry isn't too high. I seem to recall that an entry in the All-Time Book cost $200 or more.

No need to send an answer from out on the hunt... unless you are just sitting and waiting out a herd of bedded elk... and you are looking for something to do...

[ommedia]

StevenB -

The fees for entry into either of the B&C books is the same price, $45. I've never heard of a $200 entry fee...I hope it never goes that high as many local hunters want to put their trophies in as many books as possible, and that sort of fee would probably turn most hunters away.

186 + is a great mule deer! Congrats!

IF....If the official measurer, for the Oregon Record Book that measured your buck, is also a Boone & Crockett measurer, we can often honor the score they took at previous dates so long as all other requirements are met. Otherwise, the buck would have to be re-measured. I have a list of all measures for Oregon, Washington, Idaho, and Montana for State Record Books, B&C, and P&Y at this site: http://www.nwbiggame.com/measurers.cfm

Remember, over time antlers shrink. Antelope/Pronghorn shrink the most! Skulls often shrink quite a bit percentage wise, but many things contribute to how much they shrink...number one being temperature. If your buck has been hanging over a fireplace since 1972, I can assure you it will continue to slowly shrink.

I once measured a pronghorn for a gentleman who had his buck on the wall (well....since about 1972...so 25 years at the time) above a wood stove. The buck was taken on Hart Mtn. At that time the biologists "green" scored all pronghorn taken off of the refuge when you checked out. There is a mathematical formula for calculating an accurate score for a buck based on it's green score....don't ask me what it is, I have no idea...but in anycase, the buck would have scored an amazing 93". Even the pictures were amazing to see. When I measured the buck in 1997 it scored approximately 82-83". So it shrunk 10" or better in 25 years. That is an extreme example.

All I am saying is, it might not measure 186 anymore

My most offered tip to all hunters has always been" If you think you will EVER want an animal scored for the record books, do it as soon as possible. That is: 60 days after the antlers/horns/skulls have been removed of all flesh and are in room temperature. This is called the drying period. As soon as that time has passed, measure it before the taxidermist puts it on a mount!!!

Originally Posted by StevenB

I didn't know that Boone & Crockett had two different minimums. I also thought that the typical mule deer minimum was raised to 195. I see by the B&C website that it is at 190 as you stated.

I just tried reading the B&C website to answer some questions. Here are some questions I couldn't find answers to.

What are the fees for an entry in the awards and the all time book.

In 1972 I took a mule deer in the Silver Lake unit. I tried scoring it at the time but didn't get it scored by someone who was very experienced till about 25 years later. It scored 186 5/8 or so. ( See Typical Mule Deer Steven Berglund in the Oregon record book. )

I'm interested in getting the antlers scored for entry in the Awards Book if the cost for the entry isn't too high. I seem to recall that an entry in the All-Time Book cost $200 or more.

No need to send an answer from out on the hunt... unless you are just sitting and waiting out a herd of bedded elk... and you are looking for something to do...

[StevenB]

No fireplace heat or direct sunlight.

Thanks for the information. I'm planning to have the antlers remounted in the near future should I need to bear the skull cap for scoring. Taxidermy has come a long way since 72.

Is this the laundry list for getting in the B&C system.

1. Get antlers scored by an authorized B&C scorer.

2. Submit the score sheet and fees to the B&C offices.

3. Go out and try to get another B&C animal.???

[BrianMaguire]

Can you WAG score this bull? Apparently a new archey kill from the coast (roosie). The story goes that it has a base mass of 12"

[ommedia]

BrianMaguire-
This WAG request reminds me of a disclaimer I need to put in my first post. If you have a scoring request, please NOTE that is is mearly a best guess based on what I can see in a photo. It does NOT constitute an actual score. As well, I kindly ask that you do not use this thread as a place to "shop" your trophy for a larger score than it has already received officially. A measurer can NOT measure an animal that has already been measured. We hope that any use of our estimate on an animal's score, is used as a reference only!

If this is a roosevelt, then the points that stick out to the sides near the 4th points, are all bonus (called crown points). Any abnormal points found above the 4th point is a crown point.

The base measurement isn't a measurement that counts, however it CAN often dictate how big the 4 circumfrence measurements might be! As best I can tell from the photo it's probably a 330 class bull with the crown points added in (minus any deductions). The length of the main beam is difficult to judge.

That is a great bull by rifle or by bow!

Originally Posted by BrianMaguire

Can you WAG score this bull? Apparently a new archey kill from the coast (roosie). The story goes that it has a base mass of 12"

[Antlershed]

Do you have access to the Washington record book or just the Oregon one? I'm curious as to if this buck (pictured below) has been listed in the book yet. If you do have access, I think at the time it was measured, they placed it at #10 in WA. Thanks.

[Archer1000]

That is a HOG!! Nice mount, and that rack is amazing!!!!!! If only....

That had to have been shot somewhere other than Earth Wish I had an answer for you. Just amazed at the beauty of that one.

[Antlershed]

Thanks. It was shot by my great-grandfather back in 1946 near Leavenworth, WA. The horns were varnished at that time, and about 3-4 years ago, I stripped the varnish off of them and had them put into a cape that came out of Montana.

[ommedia]

Brent - et all -

Here is my grandfather's buck from 1960. I just got it back this last week from my taxidermist. I was having it re-done as the old mount was not doing it justice and it was old and weathered.

Something for all to take note in regards to measuring is:
What tines/points are the typical frame?

As a measurer, we must identify the mainbeams, G-1's, G-2's, G-3's, and G-4's as the typical frame. Anything beyond those 5 points (on each side) are non-typical. One of the hardest things to do (sometimes) is identify which ones are the typical points and which are not on large non-typical bucks.

This buck has 55 6/8 inches of non-typical points....so what's his final score?

If you can identify the typical frame, then imagine the buck without all the other "limbs" you start to see a large main frame buck.

This buck could have scored 3 inches more if he was "typical" width for a buck of this mainbeam size.

[beardbuster]

SHHHWWINNGGG!! Now that is a great buck.

[Katie Ann II]

heres some sheds that a friend found they are blacktail he thinks they are the same buck diffrent years but i dont think so it was seen alive the 4 point the guy that seen it said that it was real semetical with about no less then a 22 inch spread any guess thanks

[ommedia]

KAII-

Nice sheds! I've seen sheds that a person picked up from the same buck for nearly 9 years in a row (private property) and there were a few years when the 4th points weren't perfect, years when a small abnormal/sticker point showed up, and they didn't always look identical...but the maturity of this buck that you are asking about would be difficult to believe that those are back to back years....could be.

I would more likely guess that they are brothers/half-brothers (same father). The pure 4pt on the right obviously has a better book score. I would guess that side to measure between 53-60". I am guessing the main beams at about 18-19 inches maximum, and the inside spread being the same...18-19 inches. (especially on blacktails the inside spreads are seldom, if ever, wider than the longest mainbeam) I would be hard to believe that those are 22 inch main beams....but, it's only a picture..they aren't in MY hands...lol

don't forget, inside spread is what counts in the score, and if the inside spread is wider the the length of the longest mainbeam, then you only get an inside spread credit of the longest mainbeam length (example, rt mainbeam measures 18", left measures 18 4/8inches, inside spread measures 22", you only get 18 4/8" credit for the inside spread).

so, with my guess of 56 4/8 inch horn and 18 inch inside spread, the perfectly symetrical buck would score 131". Just a guess.

have you put a tape on that right antler?

Originally Posted by Katie Ann II

heres some sheds that a friend found they are blacktail he thinks they are the same buck diffrent years but i dont think so it was seen alive the 4 point the guy that seen it said that it was real semetical with about no less then a 22 inch spread any guess thanks

[tag-a-long]

Use the ink pen in his hand for a scale. Most are obout 5 inches long. Puts the beam 15-18" long my best effort.

[Katie Ann II]

no i havent put a tape on them there a friends co-worker so i havent held them the pic is from a cell phone that my friend took

[ommedia]

Et All iFish-

Just an announcement about a measuring event that is taking place in January. This year it is on Saturday, Jan 12th 2008.

Annually, Kutch Archery in Yamhill, Or hosts a measuring event where anyone is invited to attend at no cost. There is a pot luck, and a lot of antlers to measure (for me) and for you to look at and do a little hunter networking

Bring your antlers and skulls. There will be 2-3 measurers representing NWBG Inc's record books, P&Y, and B&C.

FYI

PM me for more details.

[traks44]

Here is my buck from this years hunt, any idea on a rough, I would put him in the 170-175 range?? I am gonna start hunting these desert guys with a bow next year, cant wait!!

Just curious what you think he might gross, he is 28 inches wide..

[ommedia]

Nice Buck!

I really want to start hunting desert bucks myself!

I agree, this should be about 170. The inside spread is probably 25-26 inches assuming you told me the outside spread. The main beams are nice and long, the symetry is a little off on the G-2 (back tine) and the G-4 (front fork), and he is a typical desert buck in regards to mass...I think it's the dietary suppliments they do/don't get.

I imagine walking up to him it looked huge!! exciting!

Originally Posted by traks44

Here is my buck from this years hunt, any idea on a rough, I would put him in the 170-175 range?? I am gonna start hunting these desert guys with a bow next year, cant wait!!

Just curious what you think he might gross, he is 28 inches wide..

[DTSportsman]

How about a guesstimate on this Blacktail, shot in the Howard Prairie/Hyatt Lake area in S. Oregon by my Father in Law.

Daryn

[ommedia]

Daryn-

That is an amazing buck.

I think I see a small sticker point (non-typical point) off the left G-2 (back tine). Other than that, it wouldn't surprise me if that buck is a 145-155 class buck!

Great lengths on the G2,3,4 and mainbeams, and even good G-1's (eye guards). The mass is fine, the width is typical for a blacktail of that size.

After 60 days that the skull plate has been removed from the head and drying, get it measured, or bring it to one of the many sportsman shows that we measure at! PM me for a list of shows.

Congrats to your Father in Law!

Originally Posted by DTSportsman

How about a guesstimate on this Blacktail, shot in the Howard Prairie/Hyatt Lake area in S. Oregon by my Father in Law.

Daryn

[DTSportsman]

There is also a sticker on the tine in front of the G-2 hidden by one of the others, if I can get more pics I'll add them with the story.

[DTSportsman]

One more for you to guesstimate, Northside 4 point.

[ommedia]

That is a realy beauty as well....

This buck is tall with deep forks. It even has some tiny eye guards (G-1's)...they all add up!

It wouldn't suprise me for this buck to be a 170 buck as well. What is deceiving about this buck, I anticipate, is the length of the mainbeams, the mass, and the length of the G-2's...they may be longer than they look. If it had an extra 5 inches of inside spread...I might bump it to a 180 class. But the length of the G-2, et all. could easily keep the score up there. I've measured a similar buck once that had weaker forks (G-3 & G-4 lengths) that scored high in the 170's...it was very symetrical.

If it turns out that it is somewhat un-symetrical (they will suprise you sometimes) it could fall to a 165-170...but that is probably not going to happen.

Best case, this could squeek into the B&C books...

I only dream of such a buck!

Originally Posted by DTSportsman

One more for you to guesstimate, Northside 4 point.

[traks44]

Originally Posted by DTSportsman

One more for you to guesstimate, Northside 4 point.

I shot a buck very similair to this one, but I think this one has a few inches on mine.

Guessing from the picture I would say a buck that is gonna gross in the low 180s, net in the mid to upper 170s. These narrow tall Jokers are my favorite, they usually have better mass than widers bucks of similair age too...

I would really like to see some more pics of this one, up close!!

[Bay City Born]

Here's another one for you. What do you think he will score.

[ORsouthpaw]

I have a bear that I was able to take opening day of rifle season. According to the taxidermy shop he green scores 7.5W x 12.5L which squeeks into B&C's 20" minimum. How much shrinkage if can I expect over the 60 day waiting period. If he falls out of the B&C will he still qualify for Oregon's big game books? Thanks

ORsouthpaw

[ommedia]

Nice blacktail! I am very jealous....I've waited years to get a nice buck like this and still...I wait.

It appears that this is a 3x4. If so, the G-3 on his left side doesn't give you any credit (6" left G-3 + 0" right G-3 - differnece which is 6", thus 0).

With that, it takes a lot of long tines for a 3x3, essentially, to qualify for the Oregon Book. This buck has great lengths all over and would be close, but I think it will be just short, scoring about 115-122. The width could be deceiving, and I like that it has two good eye guards. The mass looks great for blacktail too!

If it is a 4x4, I can't tell from the photo, it would definitely make the Oregon book minimum of 125 I believe.

Nice Buck!

Originally Posted by Bay City Born

Here's another one for you. What do you think he will score.

[ommedia]

Oh I hate to be the bearer of bad news. But....no matter if you taxidermist boils or bugs that skull, they typically shrink. If it's exactly 20" now, it could shrink 1/8 - 3/4" honestly. We killed a toad of a bear two years ago that I green scored out at 21 9/16", it later shrunk to 20 3/16"...that is extreem, but it happens.

18" is the Oregon Book minimum, so no worries there! It should make it for sure.

a 20" black bear in Oregon is something to be very very proud of. We have a lot of big bodied bears, but I only see about 3-5 bears each year that go over 20".

Congrats!

p.s. I ALWAYS recommend bugging the skulls over boiling. Less shrinkage and no cracked I-teeth (cainines). There are plenty of bug houses in Oregon now that no Taxidermist should be boiling anymore...my opinion.

Originally Posted by ORsouthpaw

I have a bear that I was able to take opening day of rifle season. According to the taxidermy shop he green scores 7.5W x 12.5L which squeeks into B&C's 20" minimum. How much shrinkage if can I expect over the 60 day waiting period. If he falls out of the B&C will he still qualify for Oregon's big game books? Thanks

ORsouthpaw

[ORsouthpaw]

Originally Posted by ommedia

Oh I hate to be the bearer of bad news. But....no matter if you taxidermist boils or bugs that skull, they typically shrink. If it's exactly 20" now, it could shrink 1/8 - 3/4" honestly. We killed a toad of a bear two years ago that I green scored out at 21 9/16", it later shrunk to 20 3/16"...that is extreem, but it happens.

18" is the Oregon Book minimum, so no worries there! It should make it for sure.

a 20" black bear in Oregon is something to be very very proud of. We have a lot of big bodied bears, but I only see about 3-5 bears each year that go over 20".

Congrats!

p.s. I ALWAYS recommend bugging the skulls over boiling. Less shrinkage and no cracked I-teeth (cainines). There are plenty of bug houses in Oregon now that no Taxidermist should be boiling anymore...my opinion.

Well, That will be ok if he don't make B&C. Although I'll keep my fingers crossed that he's in. Either way he's a true trophy to me and my 10 year old son who was right next to me for the entire hunt. He charged us and then made us work to draw him out heavy cover, it's something we'll never forget. Here's a pic after we got him back home. He's up on a small table but you can kind of see how his wide he is with his ears are falling off. He ended up over 460lbs

[LuckyStrike]

Does anyone know of an official scorer in the Pendleton area?

I know of Long Creek, but that is a ways away.

thanks,

LS

[LuckyStrike]

p.s. I ALWAYS recommend bugging the skulls over boiling. Less shrinkage and no cracked I-teeth (cainines). There are plenty of bug houses in Oregon now that no Taxidermist should be boiling anymore...my opinion.

P.S. I had my antelope "bugged" and got it back today. Killed it on August 18, got it back Oct. 18th. Glad I didn't have it done by a taxidermist, hearing horror stories around hear of 2 year waits!\

thing is sharp looking. Did a good job. PM for who it is (not on list)

Lucky Strike

[Sandstrom 22]

Originally Posted by DTSportsman

One more for you to guesstimate, Northside 4 point.

Heres a 4 point Mule Deer From northside Unit

My Dad shot it...29.5 width and 28 tall.....Taxidermist said he would score 176

GetAttachment.jpg

[ommedia]

That sounds about right.

From the picture, I don't see any eye guards...true?

great forks!

May be the picture, but I find it very hard to see the 29.5 width. Most mule deer with their ears in that position are about 20" wide....unless that right (our left) side is much wider in respect to the ears than the other side, it seems as though it is about 24" on the outside spread, and thus smaller on the inside. Again, maybe the picture.

Great lengths on G-2, G-3 and G-4's.....

I only dream of seeing a buck like this when I'm mule deer hunting!

Originally Posted by Sandstrom 22

Heres a 4 point Mule Deer From northside Unit

My Dad shot it...29.5 width and 28 tall.....Taxidermist said he would score 176

Attachment 5365

[Sandstrom 22]

Originally Posted by ommedia

That sounds about right.

From the picture, I don't see any eye guards...true?

great forks!

May be the picture, but I find it very hard to see the 29.5 width. Most mule deer with their ears in that position are about 20" wide....unless that right (our left) side is much wider in respect to the ears than the other side, it seems as though it is about 24" on the outside spread, and thus smaller on the inside. Again, maybe the picture.

Great lengths on G-2, G-3 and G-4's.....

I only dream of seeing a buck like this when I'm mule deer hunting!

He has one eye guard That is maby 3/4 inch long but the Other side doesn't have on......The deer was huge....Had to put him on a seperate Hanging pole.

[Ni!]

Here are a couple screenshots of a blacktail I videotaped two years ago. Any guess on the size of this guy? This was shot in mid-July of 2005.





I haven't seen him since then but I'm still lookin'.

[ommedia]

Ni-

A bit difficult to get a great read on the ear spread. I measured a very nice buck this weekend, on the ground, that had 16" eartip to eartip spread when "alert". With that, I'll give this buck 19.5" outside spread on the mainbeams. That gives you then, say....18" inside spread.

this affects everything for reference after that. This affects my interpretation of:
length of mainbeams
length of G-2's (back / first time coming off mainbeam)

which in turn affect interpretations of all the other measurements.

Coupled with the fact that he is velvet, the score adjusts.....lengths could be a bit longer, while mass is a bit smaller.

I'd say this is a sold 147-157 class buck!

If given the chance, I'd take this buck out of the gene pool (too perfect) and put him in the table fare category ASAP!

[Ni!]

Yeah, I'd take him out of the gene pool too.

I found another shot where he's looking straight at me. Does that help you with the spread measurement?

[ommedia]

Nice!

I might stretch that inside spread to 18.5-20".... If you kill it with the velvet on, and want it measured in velvet, then you'll land up with less inside credit (as much as .25-.5 ")

this buck is on the borderline of a sure 150"! For blacktail, that to me is an elite size of buck, like hitting the 190" mule deer, the 170" whitetail....

but then again, he could have a lot of difference (deductions based on symetry) that we just can't field judge.

This picture definitely gives you reference to outside/inside spread widths...especially if you make a general estimate on eartip-to-eartip width. Again, I put that width at 16" for mature blacktails...and 18" for mature mule deer. Some are wider, some are more narrow. Columbian Whitetail seem to be in the 13.5-14" eartip-to-eartip range.

I like to take the picture and lay it over a measuring grid I've made in Photoshop. I enlarge the photo until the ears lay perfectly on my eartip-to-eartip marks. I can then guesstimate the rest of his lengths.

Originally Posted by Ni!

Yeah, I'd take him out of the gene pool too.

I found another shot where he's looking straight at me. Does that help you with the spread measurement?

[fiddler]

Heres the horns from a buck my great-grandfather killed near Brownsville.
As you can see, they are broken at the skull. Do you think they can be repaired ? I would really like to have them repaired and mounted if I can get a good cape one of these years. Do you think that could be done?
They hold more of a sentimental value to me than a big score, but they have a 16.5" spread at the widest point of the mainbeam on the inside.
You can guess a score too if you would please.
thanks

[ommedia]

Fiddler-

First off, I used to hunt that Lacomb, Lebanon, Brownsville area in the early 90's...loved it. Wish my buddies uncle could have stuck it out with that witch and not gotten divorced umpkin:

Now, repaired skulls.....yes, I have seen the work of taxidermists who have semi-repair broken skull plates. But they would probably do it when they mount it. Depending on the amount of damange and the amount of fragments missing in the break, it "could" be re-aligned perfectly...or near perfectly.


NOTE TO EVERYONE: Boone & Crockett and Pope & Young do not allow animals with broken skull plates to be entered into their books. NW Big Game (Oregon Record Book) will examine a situation like this. The best time to do this is at one of the sportsmen shows when there are 2-3 measures on hand so they can help each other line the skull plate up.

IF, the director feels the skull alignment is 100% accurate, you can then enter them in their books if they qualify. I have seen about 4 bucks/bulls, with skull factures, actually make their books.


Now for the estimate....

Based on the size of your hand and blacktail commonalities, I would guess this buck to gross around 120, but probably net about 117". I do see some deductions.

As you have seen earlier in this thread I used a sentimental buck my grandfather killed to show how hard it is to identify typical frame for non-typical scoring animals. I too just had it re-mounted...put the word out, I am sure there are capes out there that are getting wasted that would fit this buck perfectly.

Originally Posted by fiddler

Heres the horns from a buck my great-grandfather killed near Brownsville.
As you can see, they are broken at the skull. Do you think they can be repaired ? I would really like to have them repaired and mounted if I can get a good cape one of these years. Do you think that could be done?
They hold more of a sentimental value to me than a big score, but they have a 16.5" spread at the widest point of the mainbeam on the inside.
You can guess a score too if you would please.
thanks

[BrianMaguire]

Is it not true that spread no longer counts in the score? I understand it is taken and recorded but if it does not factor into the score then why does it matter if the skull is broken? If it can be ascertained without doubt that the two pieces are from the same animal and that any seperation does not materially effect the score, e.g. spread does not count, then why does it matter? To me this seems like an artifact from a period when width counted and needs to be updated. John Wiebel has a dandy elk in his shop but it has a broken skull plate. Seems like a needless waste IMO.

[ORsouthpaw]

So another measurement was taken on my Bear skull this week by an actual B&C measurer? It is still sitting right at 20". It's been a month since I shot and it's another month before I can get the Official Score recorded. At what point in the 60 day waiting/drying period does the most shrinkage occur? Could I possibly be safe? It's going to be so close I can't stand it.

Thanks,
ORsouthpaw

[ommedia]

BrianMaguire-

NO, that is not true. All Deer and Elk have an inside spread credit that is part of the score. I should have clarified better, in my previous response, as to why the broken skull is NOT allowed.

BROKEN SKULL PLATES:
Are not allowed because a guaranteed accurate measurement of the inside spread may not be achievable. The inside spread is taken parallel to the skull plate and the base of the horns, inside of the two main beams at the widest spot. The inside spread credit may "equal" but NOT exceed the longer of the two main beams. (this happens with mule deer occassionally, main beams are 26" and 27", and the inside spread is 28"...the inside spread credit is only 27" because it is longer than the longest main beam).

OTHER MEASUREMENTS THAT DO NOT COUNT:
The "outside" spread is taken but not used. You often hear hunters, inlcuding myself, talk about how "wide" the buck is. But in regards to the score, the outside width doesn't matter. It is true, that the wider the buck the wider the inside spread (usually). The inside spread is what counts.

There is also a tip-to-tip measurement (distance between the mainbeam tips) taken that is NOT included in the score.

THERE IS A PURPOSE FOR TAKING EXTRA MEASUREMENTS THAT DON'T COUNT:
The purpose for taking the two extra measurements, as well as why B&C / P&Y askk hunters for a copy of the tag and pictures of the animal, is to prevent submittees from "shopping" for a better score.

One Example: I measure your bull at 379", but your guide told you it scored 390", you are frustrated, so you take it to another measurer, and he measures it at 384" (difference can happen occassionally when two different measurers interpret the starting point of a point differently).

Possible Result A:I entered the bull in B&C for you at 379, the next year you have it entered, from the other measurer at 382...thus you are in the book twice.

Possible Result B: Or, you call me and tell me not to enter your bull, but then you enter it with the other score.

As a measurer, any animal that qualifies, or almost qualifies for the record books, has to be turned in, regardless if the hunter wants to enter it.

B&C/P&Y/NWBG all hang onto those forms just in case. They can look at the supplimental measurements and photos to see if submittee is submitting a duplicate entry, or the same entry with a different score. Integrity of the books is paramount.


Hope this helps, and gives insight to spread credits and why we take other measurements that don't count.

Originally Posted by BrianMaguire

Is it not true that spread no longer counts in the score? I understand it is taken and recorded but if it does not factor into the score then why does it matter if the skull is broken? If it can be ascertained without doubt that the two pieces are from the same animal and that any seperation does not materially effect the score, e.g. spread does not count, then why does it matter? To me this seems like an artifact from a period when width counted and needs to be updated. John Wiebel has a dandy elk in his shop but it has a broken skull plate. Seems like a needless waste IMO.

[ommedia]

ORsouthpaw-

The most shrinkage happens on the 59th day!!! LOL

Ok, so long as you have ALL of the flesh off of the skull, it has been drying (after the flesh was removed) for 60 days in "room temperature" (meaning, not in a freezer,refrigerator, cooler, etc...must be open air), then all you have to do is wait.

If it hasn't shrunk yet, it probably will. Some shrink and some don't. Sort of like a mylar balloon. Some shrink quickly and others don't. ok, bad analogy...best I had at the momment.

I feel your pain. Good thing is, it will make the Oregon Book!!

Originally Posted by ORsouthpaw

So another measurement was taken on my Bear skull this week by an actual B&C measurer? It is still sitting right at 20". It's been a month since I shot and it's another month before I can get the Official Score recorded. At what point in the 60 day waiting/drying period does the most shrinkage occur? Could I possibly be safe? It's going to be so close I can't stand it.

Thanks,
ORsouthpaw