3" Shells a Marketing Gimmick?

[MarshBum]

OK, so this is something I've been thinking about for a while.

Are 3" shells, more specifically the "need" to use the larger shell, a marketing gimmick?

Can I kill just as many birds with 2 3/4" shells?

I don't have any ballistics in front of me, but I have to wonder if using a 2 3/4" shell, MAX load, with #4 would be perfectly fine for ducks (not geese) at or under 35 yards over decoys.

I want a compelling reason to use 3" shells. To simply say it will throw more pellets at the bird and thus increase your kill to cripple rate, I believe, is not a good argument. By the same rationale, everyone should be using 3 1/2" shells then. Are there more pellets traveling just as fast, or even faster, than a 2 3/4" shell? I had heard, anecdotally (don't remember from who either), that the "high speed" variations are actually worse at 35 or 40 yards then the "slower" loads.

Thoughts?

Geoff

[wdlfbio]

if powder is the same, then the only difference between 3" and 2.75" shells is 1/4" of room for more pellets. They will not be travelling any faster or carry any additional energy than the pellets in a 2.75" shell. But, you can go with a tighter choke that may result in a tighter pattern at 10 more yards. So, you may have more of a chance of getting a kill shot at the farther distance. But, if you can't hit what you're aiming at, you won't kill it with any size shell. One really needs to pattern their gun with various loads, chokes, and distances so one will know what teh actual pattern is. I think most people would be amazed at how tight/open a pattern actually is.

I mostly shoot seaducks right in my dekes or breadeaters dropping in (rarely care to pass shoot), so I could kill all I want with 2.75" shells (and sometimes do). But, I shoot lots of 3" so I have more pellets for swat shots on the water (damn diving ducks cover alot of territory in a current if they're not stone dead).

[AtItAgain]

I have wondered the same thing, mostly because last year was my first year back hunting waterfowl since the late '80's. Back then I always hunted ducks with 2 3/4" shells. It was legal to hunt lead then so I always shot 4's. I never had any problems knocking birds down. I think the mind set now is that because for the same size steel you have less knock down power, therefore you need to increase your shot size to acheive the same results. When you increase your shot size theoretically you leave larger holes in your pattern, so if you increase shell length (adding more shot) you fill the holes in your pattern.

If I could afford it I would shoot something like Hevi Shot in a 2 3/4" #4. I think that would work for almost any situation, except geese, of course.

At least that is the conclusion I have come to.

[Hunt'nFish]

Yes, 2-3/4" Hevi-Shot smacks them just fine. :grin:

Marketing gimmick? No. Ballistics is ballistics....bigger payloads of bigger pellets flying faster produce larger patterns and kill better.

My opinion is... it all depends. Distance, choke, the hunter's abilities.
Just after the ban I started shooting #4 steel 2-3/4" out of my A5's and had a hell of a time. Finally after switching guns 3 differant times I'm shooting a 3-1/2 Auto. A couple bucks more a box for large payloads of large pellets has me feeling confident again.

So in my mind it boils down to $2 a box to KNOW they'll die.....
or scrimp and limit your payload & range with possible increase in cripples.

This is much like the .300mag vs .308win debate. Sure the lesser will work...if conditions permit and you place appropriate handicaps in place. I have to admit it sure would be nice to hunt with the A5's again, but until denser than lead prices come down, I'll continue to keep shooting my 3"s & 3.5"s
But yes, under the right conditions a 2-3/4' #4 1oz 1500fps steel load should kill over close decoys. Studies have been done that suggest that if pellets penetrate a 12"X12" of mild steel of a certain gage, it has sufficant enegry & momentum to kill a mallard. I just can't remember what gage thickness is used. There is also a fair bit of published results on the web along these lines. Some searching might yeild some quanitive answers rather than mere opinion.

I will suggest that you not switch back and forth between differant speed shells. Pick a fast speed and stick with it.
Hunt'nFish

[Boomn4x4]

All right!!! My first intelligent post!!!

Does a 3" (or 3.5" for that matter) have an advantage? Ballistically, without a doubt, hands down, ABSOLUTLY. You are putting more pellets on target.

Now to ask the same question "in practice".... Its 100% marketing gimmick. The observed difference IN THE FIELD between 2.75" shells are no existant. There is not a doubt in my mind that the difference in # of birds you will kill with 2.75" shells and 3.5" shells is unmeasureable.

I would be VERY curious to see a thurogh study done, but I have no doubt that ween all was said and done... the diference would be insignificant.

Personally..... I shoot an Xtrema2 .... and almost exclusivly shoot 3.5" shells, but I'm not doing so because I want to kill more ducks. I'm shooting the bigger shell to make up for other personal areas in which I'm lacking.

[Old Guys Rule]

Pellet density kills birds! For waterfowl especially I only use 3" shells.

Pattern your gun with the choke you hunt with. Going to smaller shells with steel does not give you enough pellet density. When you have 90 pellets or so plus the shot string issue a bird can easily fly through the pattern without a lethal hit.Shoot a few 2 3/4" #2 loads at paper at 40 yds and you will see for yourself.

I prefer the cheaper 1400fps 3" #3 shot shells. With my gun I get blown patterns with the fast 1550 loads. #3 seems to be a good balance bewteen retained energy and max pellet number. The main reason I do not go to 3 1/2" shells or exotics like bismuth or heavi-shot is price (my personal pain point was reached)

Just my 2 cents......

[billc_sbio]

My is...

When you use the word "Magnum" in pistol or rifle discussions you're describing more (than "normal") POWDER.

However (traditionally) when you're speaking in terms of Shotshells, you're referring to the SHOT Payload.

Then there are (or were) "Magnum Loads" in the SAME sized shotshell, back in the Lead Shot days, aka 2-3/4" shells with 1-1/2 oz. loads were the "Baby Magnums".

And if you go and check on the downrange (at longer yardages) performance you discover that these shells are really LESS efficient (with a smaller % of shot arriving on target, on time) than their non-Magnum counterparts.

THIS was then pretty much a marketing "gimmick" (more $$$ for LESS Performance!)

Maximum Payload Lead Shotshells (3" 1-7/8 oz. 12 ga) NEVER performed as well as "mid-loaded" Magnum Shotshells at longer ranges (i.e. 1-5/8 oz. loads in a 3" 12 ga.)

-HOWEVER-

When Steel Shot came along, several things changed...

One of them was that Larger sizes of shot had to be used to replicate the energy available at moderate distances to duplicate the energy of Lead Pellets.

These Larger Pellets being LIGHTER now took up more room in order to still have a "decent" number of pellets in a shell to have a killing load.

Suddenly the "Crush Space" or that area where the Lead shells used to have that "piston" that collapsed was GONE!

That space was very important for the internal ballistics and getting the slow burning powders to burn properly and not have the initial pressure go too HIGH.

Suddenly the "piston" cups became just "cups", much like a giant .410 shell.

Even SLOWER burning powders were needed now to allow these pistonless shot columns to work safely.

Hercules Powder developed their HM90 powder (only available to commercial loaders) which was a slower powder than their slowest available reloading Shotshell Powder, Blue Dot.

(A variation of this eventually became available as Alliant's "Steel" powder)

All the while everybody involved in the ballistics of Steel Shotshells knew that VELOCITY was the key to upping the lethality of their product at all ranges, and they continuously worked on it.

3" Shotshells, as always, offered the advantage of having MORE Pellets at the Same Velocity as 2-3/4" with smaller payloads.

But then somebody thought, "If we just loaded the 2-3/4" loads into a 3" hull we COULD get some of that Crush Space back".

And IF we got that space back we could make our (2-3/4") Payloads fly even FASTER!

So hence you have some of the available 3" loadings at higher velocities, aka the 1,550-1,560 fps loadings

With Steel speed kills (better). (It doesn't necessarily with Lead, due to Lead's softer nature and the damage that can result to the pellets from the effects of higher velocities)

At <25 yd.s a standard 2-3/4" load of Steel is pretty effective on Ducks.

However for those who'd like that same performance out another 10 yards further, it will probably be worth it to them to opt for that added velocity they can get by shooting "standard" (1-1/8 oz. Steel) loads at higher velocities out of a 3" "Magnum" hull.

[billc_sbio]

Originally Posted by Boomn4x4

All right!!! My first intelligent post!!!

Does a 3" (or 3.5" for that matter) have an advantage? Ballistically, without a doubt, hands down, ABSOLUTLY. You are putting more pellets on target.

Now to ask the same question "in practice".... Its 100% marketing gimmick. The observed difference IN THE FIELD between 2.75" shells are no existant. There is not a doubt in my mind that the difference in # of birds you will kill with 2.75" shells and 3.5" shells is unmeasureable.

I would be VERY curious to see a thurogh study done, but I have no doubt that ween all was said and done... the diference would be insignificant.

Personally..... I shoot an Xtrema2 .... and almost exclusivly shoot 3.5" shells, but I'm not doing so because I want to kill more ducks. I'm shooting the bigger shell to make up for other personal areas in which I'm lacking.

IMHO, the 3.5" 12 ga. shell, not exactly a "gimmick", was developed to allow 12 ga. shooters to achieve near 10 ga. payload performance (designed Primarily for the LARGE sized pellets used for Goose Hunting).

It was designed FOR Goose Hunting with Steel Shot and that's the ONLY place it has any real advantage.

[duckboy]

I have had good luck with 3" 1&1/8 oz loads at 1550 fps throwing #2 (puddlers) and #1 for divers.

I have not shot 2.75" for ducks in about 5 years, and my guess is that in todays faster "1500 fps or better" loads, they may perform just as well as the 3".

But since I have about 3 more cases of 3" to blow through, I will not be buying any in the next year.

In reference to your question:
I do not believe that 3" shells are a marketing gimmick, but I am certain that 3.5'' shells are. Because the shot strings are super long long.

Most hunters prefer a Vertical "wall of pellets" rather than a slanted wall of pellets.

[Boomn4x4]

Originally Posted by billc_sbio

IMHO, the 3.5" 12 ga. shell, not exactly a "gimmick", was developed to allow 12 ga. shooters to achieve near 10 ga. payload performance (designed Primarily for the LARGE sized pellets used for Goose Hunting).

It was designed FOR Goose Hunting with Steel Shot and that's the ONLY place it has any real advantage.

I don't disagree that there is some advantage in shooting the larger load.... I just feel that the advantage is insignificant. And when you take the fact that there is about a 15% greater cost in purchasing 3" shells over 2.75".

With this information I would say that if it costs 15% more... I should be shooting 15% more birds.... anything less, I would consider it a "gimmick".... I would be hard pressed to beleive that someone shot 15% more birds by jumping up to a 3" from a 2.75" shell.

And if you want to compare it to 3.5" shells... there is an almost 50% increase in cost... If someone told me that they are shooting 50% more birds because they switched to 3.5" shells I would leave a flaming bag of dog poo on their front porch.

[duckboy]

Originally Posted by Boomn4x4

I don't disagree that there is some advantage :

If someone told me that they are shooting 50% more birds because they switched to 3.5" shells I would leave a flaming bag of dog poo on their front porch.

That is awesome..... me too....

[Got One!]

Its nice to know the powder is the same. I was using 1400 fps BB 3in Steel and it was (much to my dismay) bouncing right off geese at mid range. (got breast feathers no goose!) I came to the conclusion with Geese, either buy the expensive stuff or shoot slugs at em

I want my lead back!!

[billc_sbio]

Originally Posted by Boomn4x4

I don't disagree that there is some advantage in shooting the larger load.... I just feel that the advantage is insignificant. And when you take the fact that there is about a 15% greater cost in purchasing 3" shells over 2.75".

With this information I would say that if it costs 15% more... I should be shooting 15% more birds.... anything less, I would consider it a "gimmick".... I would be hard pressed to beleive that someone shot 15% more birds by jumping up to a 3" from a 2.75" shell.

And if you want to compare it to 3.5" shells... there is an almost 50% increase in cost... If someone told me that they are shooting 50% more birds because they switched to 3.5" shells I would leave a flaming bag of dog poo on their front porch.

Well...it has the "advantage" of mimicing, as closely as possible, the 3.5" 10 ga. shell in a 12 ga.

Do you believe that there's any difference in effectiveness between a 3" 12 ga. and a 3.5" 10 ga?

If you do (and there IS a difference!) then the 3.5" 12 ga. is as close as you're going to get. I don't know if you want to call that a "gimick" or not?

Where this really shows up is when you're shooting big stuff like BBBs and Ts.

I'm not talking shooting Ducks here. Shooting 3.5" shells at them is just a waste of $$$.

For those that perceive they're challenged in their shooting ability, and therefore shoot 3.5" shells to try to make up for it, I suggest that you're further challenging yourself by shooting loads that punish you even worse which probably causes your shooting to further "improve"!

[Duckwheat]

Year two of steel we got onto #2's. Kills ducks as well and as far as lead ever did. The ducks I shoot here are all decoying in. I have gone to an ounce and something of steel 2 in 2.75" inch shell.

It kills them fine. Always have a few #1 Kents Tungsten. It kills geese a long ways up.

D. Wheat

[Hunt'nFish]

Originally Posted by billc_sbio

I'm not talking shooting Ducks here. Shooting 3.5" shells at them is just a waste of $$$.

I think in the big scheme of things a couple $ a box is no big deal.
We certainly spend WAY MORE on stupider things!! HUH, Bill??


But really back to the original question that Geoff asked........
Geoff, is the context wanting to use an older gun??? One with a 2-3/4" chamber? Personally I find the desire to pull an old friend from the safe and give some action fascinating. Most of these older gun can handle #4 steel in a full choke just fine....the question becomes what about the pattern. Some of these old fixed choke FULL's blow the pattern.

The only way to know for sure what to expect is to shoot pattern plates and see. I'm willing to scrounge up some 12x12 thin gage sheets for you to play around with. I would be interested in your finding as well.
Hunt'nFish

[MarshBum]

Originally Posted by Hunt'nFish

I think in the big scheme of things a couple $ a box is no big deal.
We certainly spend WAY MORE on stupider things!! HUH, Bill??


But really back to the original question that Geoff asked........
Geoff, is the context wanting to use an older gun??? One with a 2-3/4" chamber? Personally I find the desire to pull an old friend from the safe and give some action fascinating. Most of these older gun can handle #4 steel in a full choke just fine....the question becomes what about the pattern. Some of these old fixed choke FULL's blow the pattern.

The only way to know for sure what to expect is to shoot pattern plates and see. I'm willing to scrounge up some 12x12 thin gage sheets for you to play around with. I would be interested in your finding as well.
Hunt'nFish

Mike,

The interest is not centered around an "old friend" as you put it. The interest is purely economical. I got to thinking about what exactly I was paying extra for. Sort of the same way I think about a $1,200 gun vs. a $400 gun... what exactly to you get for the extra $800? $800 worth of extra ducks?

I rarely shoot geese. When I do, they are close enough to shoot in the left eye. The ducks I shoot are also close. I rarely take the long shot. So, I thought about stepping down to the 2.75" shell with a slightly smaller shot size to up the number of pellets. I was also considering going to a full choke in order to tighten up the pattern as well. But at my distances, I wonder if it's really necessary.

I've not really seen anything in this thread that convinces me the 3" is much better. I'd like to see pellet counts from a 3" round and a 2.75" round with varying chokes. I'd also like to know how much energy is in those pellets once they strike.

I've looked around on the net... can't seem to find exactly what I'm looking for.

I really need to pattern the gun.

Geoff

[James in Idaho]

For years now I've only shot 2 3/4" Kents. 1 1/16th and 1 1/8th oz. high speed loads, number 3's. I my experiance 4's are nothing but cripplers. In the 20 we shoot 3" #2's or if I can find 'em #3's. Kents again. The best load I have shot in steel were the old Active 3" #1's, but you can't find those anymore. I've don't actively target geese, but if they are within 40 yards the #3's have worked just fine.

[billc_sbio]

Personally, I've shot PLENTY of Ducks with 2-3/4" loads of 1-1/8 oz., and I'd continue to shoot those IF I could find some good enough "deals" on them.

However, in the past couple of years I haven't found any good deals (like I used to) on 2-3/4" shells.

I almost always buy mine on sale and usually from Bi-Mart either before or after the season (some of their post season sales prices are just awesome) and in the past few years what the good sales have been on is 3" Kent Fasteels.

One reason I never shoot 3.5" 12 ga shells is because I DON'T HAVE a 3.5" 12 ga. gun.(I do have a 3.5" 10 ga. for when the need arrises)

But here's a thought for you and I see this quite often. It's been mentioned about how the difference in cost is something like 15%. So shell for shell, those 3"ers are more expensive, no denying that.

But what about the shooter who for lack of that little "extra" in their shell (or poor range judgment) only CRIPPLES their bird, which then starts swimming off, then they/their buddies shoot another 8 shots at the cripple in order to retrieve it?!!

I've seen half a box of shells go into a single bird that's swimming away! How does THAT fit into the equation?:grin:

I'm thinking, in close 2-3/4" is fine, a little further out 3" High Vel, too far out/up NOTHING'S going to help.

[SImudBogger]

3in 1 1/4 oz. #3 Kent faststeel is what i shoot. I used to shoot 2 3/4 1 1/8 oz #4 Federals because they were cheap, $6-$7 a box. I like the faststeel much better and it's around $8-$10 a box. If you buy a case and get the discount the faststeel is actually cheaper and more effective.

[thehunt]

Originally Posted by MarshBum

I don't have any ballistics in front of me, but I have to wonder if using a 2 3/4" shell, MAX load, with #4 would be perfectly fine for ducks (not geese) at or under 35 yards over decoys.



Thoughts?

Geoff

I would not waste my money on 4's unless I was buying swat loads. Personally I like 2's or 1's, and yes 2 3/4" shells are perfectly fine. If you have a few more pellets in the 3" shell than why not buy it? Better to be over powered than under, especially with those 35 yard shots.

If you are willing to shoot a Greenhead at 35 yards with the shell, why not a cackler? HHMMM, food for thought? Maybe. I shoot the same 3 inch 2's pushing 1550 for valley geese and ducks.

[thehunt]

Originally Posted by AtItAgain

I

If I could afford it I would shoot something like Hevi Shot in a 2 3/4" #4. I think that would work for almost any situation, except geese, of course.

.

Hevi 4's will destroy geese. A few years ago I was running hevi 4's through my 10 for honkers. It was devastating

[Hunt'nFish]

Here's some interesting reading: 2 3/4 verses 3 inch
Hunt'nFish

Ned S
Location: Amarillo, Tx
Post subject: Steel
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why anyone needs other than steel shot is beyond me except Bismuth for old guns. Steel is still the cheapest and will kill beyond most hunters capability. We know from experience that 1650 fps 4's go clear thru drake mallards out to 30 yds and 3's out to 40 yds. Also steel B's, BB's and BBB's will kill to 50-60 yds and even further. Here are the killing distances for the big shot at 1650 fps, 32F and sea level:

B's 65 yds
BB's 68 yds
BBB's 72 yds

Add 8-10 yds for shooting at 4000 ft. Reduce the load to 1550 fps and you only lose 3 yds distance. Imp Mod and Terror chokes do a great job of holding big steel to gether to 60 yds, even 70.

As the pellet dia increase the energy for that pellet to penetrate waterfowl goes up. Here are some min penetration pellet energies in ft-lbs of steel shot:
4----1.83
3----2.29
2----2.81
1----3.41
B----4.09
BB---4.85
BBB--5.69

Based on Ed Lowery's Shotgun Ballistic Program, 600 fps as min velocity for all steel pellets for penetration to kill, and Sir Gerald Burrard formula for determining projected areas of waterfowl, but reducing the area by 8%. It's standard knowledge that it takes 4 pellets to kill mallards, snows and Lessers and 5 pellets to kill Greaters of sufficient energy. Lowerys program can be obtained from Precision Reloading.

[Hunt'nFish]

Originally Posted by thehunt

Hevi 4's will destroy geese. A few years ago I was running hevi 4's through my 10 for honkers. It was devastating

Yes, I'd agree w/ Evan here. I shoot #4 Hevi's in my 10ga w/ a turkey choke interchagabley for basins on the river and turkey. Seems to get the job done just fine. That being said so does the 3.5" 12ga BB's @ 1550 and they are a fair bit cheaper.

Heck I've even whacked some with the 2-3/4" Auto-5 loaded w/ #4 Hevi's in a open full fixed barrel. Wicked pattern too. I think they were 1-1/4oz at 1200-1300fps. Closeout shells nobody wanted.

But lets get back on topic about the 2-3/4" VS. 3"
It would be interesting to see some pellet energy data for the differant sizes at differant starting velocities. Surely we could dredge that up somewhere.

But it does seem that the Kent 2-3/4" 7/8oz 1650 #3 seems to be a favorite. With skill and a tight choke it should do just fine.
Hunt'nFish

[baltz526]

i cronographed some 2 3/4" steel. the rem express 1 1/8oz loads are 1400fps the estate 1 1/8oz are 1285fps. i would stay with speeds over 1400fps for any payload of steel. over decoys the 2 3/4" remingtons kill geese and ducks very well at under 40yds with an open choke and #2's

[Swamp Puppy]

one of my favorite loads for awhile was a 2 3/4" Federal with 1oz of #2's flying at 1375fps. i could get these for about 9 bucks a box when everything else was significantly cheaper. they worked great for decoying ducks.

now..i buy 3" Kents for 9.99/box with 1 1/8oz of #2's at 1550fps.

do i NEED a 3" shell? no. but i'll take the extra shot and muzzle velocity for an extra 10 bucks a case.

[Boomn4x4]

Originally Posted by billc_sbio

Well...it has the "advantage" of mimicing, as closely as possible, the 3.5" 10 ga. shell in a 12 ga.

Do you believe that there's any difference in effectiveness between a 3" 12 ga. and a 3.5" 10 ga?

If you do (and there IS a difference!) then the 3.5" 12 ga. is as close as you're going to get. I don't know if you want to call that a "gimick" or not?

Where this really shows up is when you're shooting big stuff like BBBs and Ts.

I'm not talking shooting Ducks here. Shooting 3.5" shells at them is just a waste of $$$.

For those that perceive they're challenged in their shooting ability, and therefore shoot 3.5" shells to try to make up for it, I suggest that you're further challenging yourself by shooting loads that punish you even worse which probably causes your shooting to further "improve"!

Bill (I'll assume that is your name),

You speak the truth... to the "T" ... I don't disagree with the facts you present. I fully understand the advantages of the larger shells and how they compare to a 10ga. I have seen the different pattern results on paper, and I have seen the penetration tests in ballistic gels.

Where I disagree is where "Science" meets "Reality" In my expereince hunting side by side with people.... I have NEVER seen a difference in gun/shot performance between two different shootes (if you factor our skill).

In my whopping 6 years of wing shooting, I have gone through 3 different guns (I'm sure you understand the addiction) My first was a Mossy500, second Charles Daly Maxi-Mag and now an Xtrema2. I have seen the number of birds I shoot increase, but I attribute all of that to gaining knowledge and skill. NOT to the fact that I shoot larger loads. (FYI.... I primarily shoot geese...BB, BBB shot)

If you want a true look at the effect, ask someone who hunts with you if they noticed a change..... trust me, I know how it works... you ALWAYS pay attention to how your blind buddy is shooting. Gotta have some bragging rights.

It seems to be pretty universal. If you ask, a majority of 3.5" shooters will tell you "I had far less cripples since I started shooting 3.5s" ... BUT if you ask the guy who was sitting in the blind with them they will tell you "He still misses just as much as he used to.... he just talks about his gun a whole lot more".

Scientifically, there is a difference.... and the Marketers behind those products know this. But put those "Scietific facts" into the marsh and it all means nothing... Inside 40 yards, steel kills birds.... PERIOD

[baltz526]

1 3/8oz of bb's is 100 pellets 1 1/8oz is 82 pellets. in the ten gauge i have tested 85 bbb, they pattern better than 100 bb. at the same velocity. one test i did was 70bb's at 1700fps out of a 2 3/4" 12ga hull. pattern was 100% at 40yds in a 20" circle. center of the target looked like a turkey load at 15yds. the load ruins a hull on the first reload and kicks like a large caliber magnum rifle. and comes right out of a reloading book.

[stlhdr1]

Personally I've never had problems out to 45 yards with my Browning Light Twelve. I shoot a 30" barrel with a full choke, 2 3/4" shells and BB's. I prefer it over my Benelli Nova 28" barrel Mod Choke and 3" BB's....

Keith:grin:

[Threemuch]

I just plain shoot better with 3" 1 and 1/8 fast loads in 2 and BB out of both my guns. Kill ratio is definitly higher with those types of loads. The birds I hit are usually dead-dead. I might miss a few because of holes in the pattern or whatever, but I would rather miss a bird clean than rattle it and have it keep flying or sail to someplace I (or the dog) can't get to it safely. I don't see much of a difference in the 3" slow loads compared to a 2 3/4 normal load.

So I shoot fast 3" steel, and even if it is a "gimmick", the placebo effect is working for me.

As far as 3 1/2" shells the price point is just too high, and the kick is unbearable for ducks. For geese, where you might not get too many opportunities, I break out the good stuff, 3" heavi-shot 2s. Heck when you are looking out over 5 grand worth of decoys, it is tough to think that you scrimped on 20-40 bucks worth of ammo.

[Got One!]

Originally Posted by stlhdr1

Personally I've never had problems out to 45 yards with my Browning Light Twelve. I shoot a 30" barrel with a full choke, 2 3/4" shells and BB's. I prefer it over my Benelli Nova 28" barrel Mod Choke and 3" BB's....

Keith:grin:

I have a Mod choke and 3" with bb's (for me) has been a wasted shot on a goose over 45-50 yards I think a large part is the choke to be honest about it. (although the same shotgun with lead years ago and #2-4 would bring them right down)

I used to shoot an old bolt action 20 gage goose gun 36" barrel and never had realistic range problems with 2 3/4's, once again with lead

Seems to me I need to get off the cheap and get hevi-shot or something. I don't think 2 3/4 or 3 make a diff, its the shot inside it.

[Mike P.]

Theres alot of opinions here from many people with more wingshooting experience than me, but the key really is to test a number of different loads and find ones that your gun like (patterning) that has enough velocity to get the job done. I have found that remington loads generally pattern horribly in either my auto 5 magnum or my bps 10 so it won't matter what size shot or length load I am using.

One other thing to consider is the length of your shot string as this makes the difference between a 3.5" 12 ga and a 3.5" 10 ga much larger.

I do feel that speed and proper shot size selection are quite important...for me steel #4 is like throwing sand unless you are shooting short distances over decoys or at very small birds like teal.

I personally buy the best loads I can afford since I work too much and don't spend enough time in the field.

That's my .02

[Eric Strand]

Just shoot whatever works for you...... For me it's 3 inch 1 1/8 ounce of 3's for ducks and 3 inch 1 1/8 ounce of BB's for geese.

" Shoot em with their feet down "
Eric Strand

[raptorschild]

I used to shoot an 870 mag with 3.5" inch shells at mostly ducks and a very few and far between goose.

I now shoot more ducks and geese with my 20 ga browning citori shooting 3" and 1 oz.


I don't know much about ballistics, but i can tell you that they have little to do with why the ducks are dying or not.....

Before i spent the extra buck to "kill" the ducks i'd spend a few extra bucks at the trap/skeet range.

[Tilla]

Originally Posted by James in Idaho

For years now I've only shot 2 3/4" Kents. 1 1/16th and 1 1/8th oz. high speed loads, number 3's. I my experiance 4's are nothing but cripplers. In the 20 we shoot 3" #2's or if I can find 'em #3's. Kents again. The best load I have shot in steel were the old Active 3" #1's, but you can't find those anymore. I've don't actively target geese, but if they are within 40 yards the #3's have worked just fine.

I agree with Pokey boy! On the duck pond cheap 3's work just fine. Anyway the dogs just want them on the water, they'll do the rest!
Big geese require some inch pounds, I'll go to 3" BBB's, birds die from shock, the more penetrating pellets, the better.

I no longer overthink this, big bullets may give you confidence, but it's better just to be good!

[Hunt'nFish]

Originally Posted by Mike P.

....<snip>.... I have found that remington loads generally pattern horribly in either my auto 5 magnum or my bps 10....<snip>....

SO that explains my problems!!!!

No, my problems have been me and gun fit, certainly not the shells.
But there is no substitute for checking patterns & penetration.
Hunt'nFish

[red willie]

heres my take on the ???,, the load you use, if it be 2 3/4 or 3'' makes little diff. if you dont make a solid hit on the bird,, shooting 1 or 2 times before season at clays is not enough,, imo

the loads we can get today and the many diff. shot sizes makes it easy to find the load that works best for you and or your gun,, each person and gun are not the same, and to say that what shoots great for me dosn't mean it will work for the other guy,,

most if not all that has been posted here is right,,

only for myself,, i shoot kent 1425fps. 3'' 1 1/4 bb's for both ducks and geese,, from 20 yards to whatever it mite be,, every year i do buy 1 case of 3 1/2" 1 3/8 bbb's for those days im only going to be shooting geese, but it seems that that case lasts 2 years or more,,

some mite say bb's are overkill for ducks, and it mite be,, myself, i think its better to have to much then not enough,,

again for myself,, shooting the same load for every shot the last three years has made more of a diff. in my shot to kill %%% then the load im shooting,, for me this load covers all the bases in the field,, and i cant stress enough that shooting the same load over and over and over again makes all the difference in the world in your skill as a wingshooter,,

rw

[Beulah Roamer]

Originally Posted by MarshBum

OK, so this is something I've been thinking about for a while.

Are 3" shells, more specifically the "need" to use the larger shell, a marketing gimmick?

Can I kill just as many birds with 2 3/4" shells?

I don't have any ballistics in front of me, but I have to wonder if using a 2 3/4" shell, MAX load, with #4 would be perfectly fine for ducks (not geese) at or under 35 yards over decoys.

I want a compelling reason to use 3" shells. To simply say it will throw more pellets at the bird and thus increase your kill to cripple rate, I believe, is not a good argument. By the same rationale, everyone should be using 3 1/2" shells then. Are there more pellets traveling just as fast, or even faster, than a 2 3/4" shell? I had heard, anecdotally (don't remember from who either), that the "high speed" variations are actually worse at 35 or 40 yards then the "slower" loads.

Thoughts?

Geoff

3" shells used to be sold as magnums. The 3" give more pellets per shot, the same as they always have. More pellets means possibly more kills or misses. This I have found to be more shooter than shell. Like any hunting practice says alot. As for the #4 for ducks, I prefer #2's. They have a little more knock down and under 35 yds the pellet count or density is still high. As for the speed 2 3/4" & 3" standard have the effect, they are still effected by gravity. You have a gun that will shoot 3" use them. Might as well have the extra shot numbers. Of course this is just my opinion. Good luck with your search