A SIGN of the Times - Signs that can help rid our rivers of jerks and trash

It's obvious that in the NW we have a growing problem of improper rudeness by jerks on our rivers and slob trash throwers as well. The states have been woefully slack in doing their job in keeping our rivers safe, clean, and enjoyable with proper etiquette the norm. Since part of the problem is lack of enough state budgeting for enforcement officers I have an idea for a low cost and likely effective way to address these growing issues. ...

We need large SIGNS posted by all popular boats launches/take outs and all popular bank fishing areas that concisely state proper guidlines of river and fishing etiquette that is fair to all user groups. A set of fair and ethical rules of acceptable behavior and conflict resolution criteria can be drawn up by a committee of anglers from this &/or other fishing websites and a consensus set of rules be forewith. They should be kept to the high priority issues, so as not to be too long - which could keep some guys from wanting to read them. They need to carry some substance in the form of stating "If enough complaints are issued about an individual or group of people, including guides who do not have special privilages, then steps will be taken to remove the chronic offenders from river privilages". And these signs need to be big enough and placed in a proper area so they can't be missed. And they need to be endorced and and randomly enforced by the appropriate enforcement agencies - something they should NOT be adverse to. ...

I will also suggest, as I did during the Wind River cleanup event, that large signs need to be placed, along with a large garbage can chained to a tree or post, at all major trail heads to popular bankfishing areas and at boat ramps that clearly state "DO NOT LITTER. Bring your trash back out with you and deposit it in the garbage can. Anyone caught littering by random surveilance will be cited and fined heavily. Further infractions will lead to loss of fishing privilages for an extended period of time". Again, make the signs big enough and properly placed so they can't be missed. And back this up by lower cost random surveilance by enforcement personel - since budgets don't enable watching everywhere all the time. This relatively simple, cost effective strategy will go a long ways in cleaning up our rivers of both jerks and trash. What will it take to get this simple solution done? Who knows the proper state reps and F&G Dept. personel to send these proposals too? Any of you reading this here now? With limited funds for officers afield, this will help them a lot - and they must follow thru with random surveilance and citations to put substance behind the solution signs. ... Suggestions?

RT

[ 07-04-2001: Message edited by: RT ]

[Stz ll]

Hi RT. I am pretty sure that the Whitewater Boaters of Oregon would be more than willing to assist in this type of project. As a mater of fact this is not a new idea and there was a group around a year or so ago who was pushing for this. I'm not sure who, however if you get a hold of Norm Ritchie the President of the Sandy River chapter of The Northwest Steelheaders he could fill you in. If I remember correctly there might even have been some money out there for groups who do this sort of thing.

Two things come to mind. First of all Oregon rivers are cleaner than Washingtons. No flame but it's the truth! There are few if any trash cans in the public access areas in Washington and secondly there is no bottle bill! I'm not saying there isn't any trash along Oregon streams because there is! believe me there is plenty of trash but in the public access areas there are trash recepticles.
I have a question also for someone in Washington who may know. The yellow access stewardship stickers that are given out when buying a license is supposed to be strictly enforced isn't it? I was on the Washougal river last night and there were swimmers and sun bathers in every public access area. Not one had one of those stickers on their cars! I was the only one who did. So what is the deal with that? I was told that a $60 citation was given if you were caught without one. Just wanted to know. The state police or county sheriff could have written 75-100 tickets. It seems like the litter and vandalism problems in both states is getting worse

[Thumper]

Stew:

We are told that the problem is a lack of enforcement dollars. There just aren't enough bodies in green shirts out there to do the job, though it would seem that one enforcement guy with a ticket book could make a lot of believers in about an hour.

RT:

If you recall, there are numerous anti-litter signs at the trailhead on the Wind. I remember 'cause I spent a lot of time there trying to recuperate. Guys who would desecrate a beautiful place like that canyon are not likely to be taught to respect our natural treasures. If is a pattern on most of our rivers, though I think that Stew is right when he points out that at least in Oregon there are fewer cans. I pick up several sacks of crap on the East and North forks of the Lewis each year and about half of the garbage is cans. Maybe we need a bottle bill over here.

[sinker]

Stew,
The problem up here is that in all the years of fishing very popular lakes and a couple fairly popular rivers, I've been checked for a license once.
They don't have enough time to check licenses let alone window stickers. Pretty sad situation we've got up here. I heard last year that they were limiting the game wardens monthly mileage to 2000 miles. Hard to do much enforcement when you can't get there.

[NEUTRON]

I'm in agreement something needs to be done but not sure signs are going to help. Just this weekend I had seen people who had kept
small fish (smolts I presume) on the N.Santiam where Trout fishing is catch & release and bait is restricted to larger hooks. There are yellow signs (odfw) every
where. The day prior I was approached by a local land owner near a boat slide that informed me the slide was on her property.
She had told me there was a problem with litter lately, she also mentioned someone had used the "outdoor" potty riverside. I have seen this kind of stuff myself, makes me sick. I don't understand the stupidy. As outdoor type people, we need to continue our clean up efforts and help educate others what is acceptable behavior. If not we will lose access to some of the places like the one mentioned above. I understand why private landowners won't tolerate the general public. A thoughtless few spoil it for all. Sorry for the long winded post. [img]images/icons/mad.gif[/img]

The signs need to be bigger with fine amounts listed, and some large fine citations handed out. The word would get out and this would improve things quite a bit. The litter offenders should also be made to keep a river section clean of trash for a month, or for a year for a second offense. Even one cleaning day on a place like that Wind River canyon area would make them think twice before littering again! ... As for the boat number complaint program, that would be as successful as us fishermen would make it be.

RT

[ 07-05-2001: Message edited by: RT ]

[FM2]

RT,
I enjoy reading your posts and the motoviation and concerns you express.

I believe you are on the right road in terms of some type of enforcement. The main issue is what everyone has identified...enforcement. Until there are funds available to increase the enforcement personnel this will be an ongoing problem. Private agencies do not have a legal position to enforce laws thus there is a catch 22 situation. I believe it would be up to the local clubs/organizations to lobby in Salem possible solutions to this problem. I have had experience with politics and strength in numbers is about the only way to get a point across. This is where bukoo letters from concerned citizens and proactive positions by organizations will have the best effect. I would recommended starting with the grass roots level clubs/organizations and pitch the severity of this problem and have a sound financial plan in place. Unfortunately money talks and BS walks....

You are on a tough road and I applaud you in bring up this topic, don't lose your motoviation and keep up the fight.

Than let's identify those with the slob genetics and stamp their foreheads with the appropriate ID [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img] . ... Actually, I think the ones with the irreversable genetic tendancies toward slobhood are in the minority. Most of them will change with the proper deterance programs in place. The ones that don't change do need to be ID'd and have their fishing licenses taken away. By ID, if they are caught fishing w/o a license the put them in jail like they do guys that drive w/o a car drivers license. I just don't think throwing up our hands and not trying to stop these probs isn't what to do - and you make it sound as if that's what you are saying; although I know you aren't a throw up you hands type of guy. Keep up the good fight.

RT

[Master Baiter]

They will either be ignored, used as a canvas for graffiti, used as target practice, or fuel a fire! [img]images/icons/mad.gif[/img]

Thomas

"Signs, signs, everywhere there's signs"

[FM2]

RT,
Deterence is good, enforcement is better. Ahhh....it's refreshing to read how the creative juices manifest themselves on a topic that many can relate too. How about an undercover,covert radical group that will slash the trashers with humility and abuse [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

Seriously RT deterence is tough to manage and regulate but I agree with you that something needs to be done with the slimeballs that cause this frustration. I don't hesitate confronting these jerkusoids which most of the time is effective and other times I just beat my head against a tree while repeating "DUH, I don't get it dude"!

How about setting up a meeting with the state police and ODFW to discuss this in a forum to reveal what avenues can be taken then pursue it with vengence. I'm willing to help and if enough people get behind the cause, change can happen !

What do you think ?

FM, you mean kind of like a vigilante group? That would be both effective and fun - but too many negative ramifications (I think). ...

As for our state reps and enforcement agencies, copy these threads or write your own letters with suggestions send along to them. If they get a bunch of these they will "get" the idea hopefully.

RT

[fishbait]

RT,

Signs are not the answer. Doesn't matter how big. It's geneticts, some people just don't care.

I recently say a great bumber sticker, it said" YOU, out of the gene pool". Guess that says it all as far as my point of view.

[Fishbulb]

Too many miles of river and stream. Too many signs instructing us what to do. This idea is wonderful in theory but falls down in practice. The jerks who trash our community places know there are no $ for enforcement of the litter laws and no sign is going to convince them of this. The sign itself will become litter when they spray it with buckshot it and then tear it down. Ethics related to littering are rooted in the offenders inability to empathize with the next person who uses the area. That is really what it is all about. It is not that they feel contempt for the environment but for other people. Or they live in that type of enviroment at home and feel it is normal to do it everywhere. Unless this is changed we will see the trashy results forever.

The boater complaint system will be expensive and I do not think it will be enforcable by law. I don't think there is a judge out there that will revoke a persons privledge based on the word of a bunch of other boaters. When it comes to boating/fishing violations the cops can't even win alot of the times.

I just think that many more aspects of the entire situation will need alteration. Signs and a phone # don't go all the way.

my 2 cents

[FM2]

Hey RT,
I was thinking of gorilla operatives with drift boats mounted with 105mm skyrockets with quick manuvering capabilites to initiate beach landings to apprehend the offenders [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

Thanks for the offer to pursue this based on my idea but I can't take your torch. I worked on complicated issues politically speaking and know how complicated the process can get and I am offering assistance, not the point man.

Don't let it go !

[Fish4Fun]

RT,

This is a great idea to help clean things up, like the others here I am not sure just how much Johnny Law can help. That is where the internet can be used to help. With the fishing boards that most of us are on these days it would be easy to start posting some info on the "Slobs" that are out there. Most of us have very recognizable boats and trucks, just start putting up descriptions and what the incident was. I think the peer preasure that we could put on a boater/bank fisher would be enormuous. The internet is a communication tool we should all use it for that and get the word out on these slob sportsman.

[marko]

I cannot count the number of time I have come off the water, out of a wilderness, down a trail, stopped at a roadside rest (not the interstate) to find a single trashcan overflowing and trash piled up next to it. While you are all correct about enforcement, I think a big step would be getting the trash picked up. Keeping the trash receptacle emptied is an important part of this. The overflowing trashcan and the piles-which often are strewn about-near it sends the wrong message. It says nobody cares. Keeping the area clean gives people an incentive to do likewise. [img]images/icons/mad.gif[/img]

[dogfishboy]

RT,
This is a continuing and growing problem. I think you have some good ideas and should organize this endeavor. You seem to have a lot of contacts and would be the right person to head up this effort. Let us know what we can do after you get things organized.

dfb

[THE REEL HEY_YALL]

Maybe if the states hired outside contractors to monitor the cameras and issue fines and citations, it wouldn't be such a financial burden. Wouldn't have to pay out benefits such as health and dental insurance, retirement, and the wages would be cheaper than that of a gamie. (they usually are around $20 an hour +/-).

We could even make the cameras be on the web with realtime feed. People could monitor the realtime feed and just call a river ranger down there at least.

Next thing, but still hand in hand with the subject:

Why the hell don't the sandshrimp containers come in a biodegradeble container? I'm so tired of seeing styrofoam containers. I don't think you can buy worms in Alabama (like people do that) in a styrofoam container.

Enforcement $ will take a backseat, especially after the big earthquake that hit. The funds seem to be needed elsewhere. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif[/img]

The only way anything will really work is LARGE fines (ridiculous amount w/ community service) and someone there to issue these citations. I haven't seen but one gamie in 2 years of living out here, and that's because we didn't have a sticker in my truck window and he told me to go hang it up in the windshield, which I did.

[FM2]

Here's a thought !!
How about a check box on your state income tax form allocating your state kicker to enforcement programs.

Of course there would be many, many details involed with this but all programs DO start with a thought !

What do you ifishers think, worth going there or what !

[sinker]

I went to college for Forestry. Part of the curriculum was Parks & Recreation. The number one way to cut back on littering we were taught was to have trash receptacles present.
Now that I think about it I haven't seen any around here. There are a lot of lakes with public access near me, can't remember seeing a dumpster or trash can at any of them.
I fish, Ohop, Kapowsin,Harts, Rapjohn, Whitman. These are all within about 20 minutes of me, and none of them have garbage cans. Just lots of ignorant people that can't take their trash back home with them.

[hawgcatcher]

Enforcement is a hard thing since our lawmakers can't get enough money to pay our OSP officers. Too busy making their own raises. Then when the cans are available, out comes the slob with all his garbage from home and fills the can. Then comes the young idiots that can't even get the garbage in the can when it is right by them. Had a run in with some girls that were sitting eating their fast food. A can was less then eight feet away. What did they do? They simply opened the windows and dropped it all on the ground. When I erupted in words that shouldn't be repeated, I was told "What is your problem?" So I told them. They got out and put it in the can and I must have made some impression because as they drove off, they let me know that I was number one in their books. Sometimes I think a month of cleaning up the areas around our lakes and rivers would do all of them good. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[Crusin]

I read RT's post on this in at another site. I didnt respond to it there but I will here because Oregon is my home, I always take my Twin girls with me when I head for the Rogue , they dont fish much, but with our deposit law here they clean up big time getting all the beer and pop cans that the Terroists leave here...sorry..i meant tourist..It's really sad when a person comes to an area thats pristien and praises the beauty and then treats it like a garbage dump....

I'm so glad to see so many replies about this problem. It shows there is plenty of concern and ideas to combat the trash; and the rude anglers too. ...
'Hey_Yall' is right about the importance of LARGE fines. When there are not a large amount of officers afield giving out small fine citations, then there needs to be large fines given out by what officers are available; and publicized. Even with less citations issued, with the knowledge that very large fines are given randomly, particularly in heavily used or trashed areas for littering, that will have a deterent affect. And this needs to be augmented by garbage cans in proper places, at least in the more crowded areas! And keep them in the regular garbage truck rotation routes. I think it's obvious that bottle and can bills that charge a deposit on them definitely keep the environment cleaner. And so do people that speak up to ignorant litterbugs. ....

As for what I will do - I will collect all the input from the fishing BB's on this subject and mail copies to state reps and higher enforcenment personnel. What we need as much or more than that is for all of you to write a brief letter to send or e-mail to your state reps. Jennie has a link to all their addresses from the ifish homepage. Thanks!

RT

[FM2]

RT, you might want to contact Jack McGowan who does the beach cleanups, he would be a good resource to help promote your idea !

Clubs and private people could also offer in lieu of funded personnel plans to clean certain areas which in today's times might be a swifter and more efficient way to at least begin to bring attention to this problem. Then enlist the support of media environmentalist such as Grant McComie to promote the problem and the people willing to do something about it to bring a public awarness to this frustrating problem. I believe this is large enough to gain public support to the concerned, however, the issue needs to be publicized.

There are many grass roots solutions to this problem but in the larger picture you need to work from the top down, it does work !

Also a cedarmillite ! [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[santiamflyguy]

As much as we hate to admit it, as fishing has become more popular, not surprisingly, the amount of litter/trash on our rivers has gone up. However, at the same time, parks and recreation budgets have been slashed (at least in terms of enforcement). I have been checked for a license once in 12 years of fishing the North Santiam. Today would have been the second, except since I was flyfishing, the ODFW guy thought I -must- have had one, so he didn't ask. I did, but that's beside the point. He said that he had fined no less than twelve people that day; six for improper tackle, three for no license, and three for keeping "trout". That's out of the 35-40 he checked. Quite a high percentage if you ask me. I asked how much the fines were; he said around $50. Not that I would, but I could have been keeping trout for the last twelve years for a total cost of $100 (thinking in dishonest terms). So what's the deterrent here, either in terms of breaking regulations or littering? I don't think I've ever heard of/seen a 'littering' fine. We do need bigger fines, but also more enforcement. It's really a voluntary compliance system in place now, and fully a third aren't complying. There is some reason why...and how to stop that...now if only I were the one to figure it out [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif[/img] [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[local_hooker]

Deterrence only works for pro-social people in possession of a fully functioning conscience, like us!

All our interstates have big signs that say 65.

When you see a trooper working traffic do you go 65?? yes....Because you know you will get caught.

When you don't see any troopers do you go 65?? No.....Because you don't think you will get caught.

I agree that enforcement is the answer.

If these thugs know they will get caught and fined they will stop littering.

The age old problem that law enforcement has been trying to answer since Sir Robert Peel invented the "Bobbies" is; how do we make all the people think they will get caught every time they offend.

Tough question.

Sean

[SandyRiverFisher]

While enforcement of violations may be a problem, the simple act of placing a sign that outlines river etiquette may clear up many problems without the need of involving an enforcement agency. Basic rules of conduct such as not crowding other fishermen, reeling up your lines when someone gets a fish on, and not driving your boat eighty miles an hour past a guy who's anchored and fishing may seem like common sense to us, but with the number of new guys increasing every season the fact of the matter is that many out there simply don't know better. Giving a resource or reference that would allow these greenhorns to learn about the "rules" before hitting the water would avoid many conflicts, although, im not sure where the money for such a project would come from.

Trash cans are also a great idea. It would be wonderfull to have a trash can at every heavily used fishing area. The fact of the matter though is that many already do have such trash cans, but they never get emptied. The Trail down to pipeline on the Sandy has such an overflowing trash can, as do some of the areas up at Bonneville, or the trail down to cedar creek. Well meaning fisherpeople have put out many such cans and then never returned to collect the accumulated garbage. Its still a great idea, but I think that in order for it to work you would have to have a grassroots effort on each river. We would need to get a group of fishermen and other river users together for whatever river we wished to clean up, that would not only put these trash cans in place, but return regularly to collect the garbage and then pay to have it disposed of. Essentially it would be a lifelong commitment to collecting other peoples garbage, so the challenge would be getting it to work in the long run. I dont think that we could rely on the state to set aside money for either signs, trash cans, or enforcement.

[dogfishboy]

Streamside and instream trash can be found in many forms [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif[/img]



[ 07-07-2001: Message edited by: dogfishboy ]

DFG, I have posted what I plan on doing (and I won't let that go [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img] - I just hope many will take a small amount of time to write to state reps also). But I don't have either the time or long hours on my foot capability to be able to do something so comprehensive as you have outlined above. What you have brought forth with your proposal would go a long ways toward correcting this problem on a long term basis. But finding a person with both the time and hiking capacity to get this to work won't be easy. How about you David (DFG)? You have the smarts and motivation. How is your time schedule and feet? Thanks for the great input!

RT

[FM2]

DFG, I sense we have the same thought process and understand the complexities with RT's idea. I would be willing to discuss with you and RT a possible tenative grass roots plan to at least open the dialoge with key people/organizations that could be targeted as proactive on this problem. Don't personally know RT or yourself but the problem is real and someone needs to pick up the ball.

Let me know what you think !

[dogfishboy]

RT & FM2,

Cloning! This is the answer to many of our personal and professional time problems. Time is one of our most valuable commodities. If this had come up a year ago I could have found the time to inject it into an already cluttered schedule. I have learned to multitask...but there is a limit.

Currently, I’m in the conceptual development phase of a salmon project at the Museum. I find myself - more than anticipated - researching a 5,000 sq.ft. traveling exhibition. If all things work out it would open in Portland and travel the region and then the country to museums and similar institutions in 2004 through 2007. The exhibition will explore all aspects of a salmon’s lifecycle as it travels the great journey from forests to sea and back.

With ESA listings, power and water battles erupting, and a significant amount of misinformation being published, its time people had an objective look at the situation soon to dominate life in our region. The complexities of the topic makes it a challenge to present it in a fair and unbiased manor...but we will. In the early ‘90s I curated an exhibition on old growth forests. It traveled nationally for three years including a six month stay at the Smithsonian’s Natural History Museum in Wash. DC. This had a positive impact on the over one million visitors that viewed the exhibition and also on many politicians. I hope to have the same success with this project. This is in addition to my normal workload since there are no funds allocated as yet. For me, this must take priority over other worthwhile projects such as this one.

FM2,
I’d be glad to brainstorm ideas, approaches and methods to tackle RT’s “Clean Streams” concept. BUT, this has to come from the top down...and RT is the top [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]. I floated a couple of concepts a year ago only to have them sink to the bottom and soon covered in sediment. If the DB Gods [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img] find value in a session such as you suggested then you can count me in. I have virtually no time available this month but I’d be glad to host a meeting on our boat in St. Helens in early August. Such a meeting must involve beverages, fishing and more beverages...you know... multitasking [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img].

btw, what’s “DFG [img]images/icons/confused.gif[/img].” Did you both mean dfb or ...?

[FM2]

DFG, with respect to RT's loss, let's continue this path in a week.

[dogfishboy]

FM2,
By all means...maybe a couple at least.

[dogfishboy]

RT, et al,

Attacking the problem statewide at first is a huge - but worthwhile - endeavor. You might find it easier to start small and maybe then hand it over to an agency or citizen action group after you have the ball rolling.

One approach to this endeavor would be to develop an action plan and implement it on a single stream. Pick a coastal or valley stream and involve local municipalities, community groups and local businesses. Now, equipped with this group of motivated people develop and fund a clean river action plan. Raise money from local county agencies, local individuals and businesses to place signs, trash receptacles, and organize bi-monthly cleanup events. ( Clean-up events are critical to show that trash is unacceptable. Like with graffiti, it is critical to remove it ASAP to stop future incidents.) An initial effort of this size is much easier to develop and manage, and you’ll be less likely to become overwhelmed by the difficulties you encounter with a larger statewide endeavor. More importantly, if successful, you can then take this model to other streams and watersheds in the region.

The media will be more forthcoming with attention when you can show a problem and how citizens have organized to resolve the problem. This start-small-and-build-momentum method will allow you to make adjustments to “the plan” as needed. In the future, you will be able to hold city and state officials attention when you show the problem and a tested and successful solution. Also, I feel you will have greater success at fundraising in the future when you have a plan in place and can show a successful outcome.

A major part of this campaign should be to raise awareness and instill a responsible outdoor ethic in our youth. This aspect of the “project” could be done by volunteers who work with local agencies to visit schools and local events. Their goal would be to get the message out that your actions have an impact on the quality of life for all of us. Streamside trash could be collected and taken to schools and placed -with Admin. approval - to illustrate how litter feels in “their backyard” and the negative impact it has on all life - not just wildlife. The students could then be enlisted to participate in local stream clean-up events.

The toughest thing you will fight is losing momentum and being distracted by other ideas and situations that come up on the DB. Many good ideas have come up on this and other DBs only to soon be forgotten as the next fishin’ season opens. RT, as FM2 said “don’t let it go.”