Is snagging an alternitive?????????

[superfly]

I know that in may places in alaska they allow sport snagging of slamon as a means of harvest and as a way to get people out of there with there fish in a hurry to make room for others.
I often wondered if a situation such as hoodsport chum fishery or all the silvers up at the barrier dam if this would not be a bad thing if it was just pretty much fishing on hatchery surplus that was going to go for pet food anyways.
I would like to hear everyones thoughts on this one, this should get interesting quick!
Peace Superfly

Joe they used to allow this on the Washougal back in the 70's and it's not a pretty sight. I don't think it would be a good idea at all. You want to see human behavior at it's absolute worst then start a snagging fishery.
Stew

[Wog]

I Agree with the BIGSTEW.
There is a reason why the laws are in place today the way they are. These ideas have been tested before and they just don't work.

[David Johnson]

I think that if you let some people snag hatchery fish they will get the idea it's ok to do it on other stocks of fish, teaches them bad habbits.

I think snagging will bring out the worst in people. I think it will bring out a lot of non sportsmen (slobs)

[Mike H]

My thoughts...

I've been ripped on this board before for saying the "M" word but I'll try it again.

I see snagging fish as morally wrong. Where's the sport in that? I feel bad enough snagging a fish accidentally.

I'm not saying what they're doing to them after they return to the hatchery is any better but lets keep the barbarism to a minimum. Imaging the trash you would see out there just rippin' at the water. It's bad enough while snagging is still illegal.

If there are so many fish returning, increasing the daily bag limit is an idea.

Mike H

[bob b]

While snagging might seem a fair way to use a surplus resource,the anti-hunting,anti-fishing groups would have field day with this practice in this area. Snagging is not fishing and I would not want to be associated with this activity.

As a veteran of MANY years of watching the "pros" snag em' in tidewater, the BEST alternative around me is DON'T do it, so you don't get your butt kicked. Then I'll take you to the cops. That's a promise. Bears, Osprey and this guy below are the ONLY outside the mouth catching, anywhere, allowed.



[ 05-31-2001: Message edited by: ****** ]

If you want to see snagging at its worst, or the human scum that do it, go to the mouth of Big Creek where it dumps into the Columbia.When the Salmon are running they snag off the RailRoad bridge there.
To bad there are so many of these scum's there. So many that the Oregon State Police just turn there heads. Nothing agianst them, theres just too many people. [img]images/icons/mad.gif[/img]

[TideRunner]

Snagging is no challenge. What's the sport in snagging?

[Myfish]

You can go to any river in Oregon when the fall Chinook are in and if you look hard you will see more than one person snagging fish. Most of the time you don't have to look hard at all,all you do is have to look. [img]images/icons/shocked.gif[/img] [img]images/icons/shocked.gif[/img] eyes wide shut

In my opinion there are much better uses for excess hatchery fish than using them for a snagfest - give the excess to the Oregon Foodbank or many other charities that will feed many needy people. The ones that are graded for non-human consumption in the hatchery holding ponds are sold to the catfood companies to bolster the revenue for state fisheries departments. I think they should use some of those funds for much needed additional enforcement personel. ... And I agree with David that it sends a strong and wrong message to the ethically challenged 'anglers not' that snagging is somehow OK on other runs of fish, including native fish. And there is no shortage of idiot slobs out there to get a fish anyway they can, and usually dump their trash on the ground before they leave.

RT

[Gone Fishin]

I only know of one spot in Alaska where it is legal. But I don't think that makes it right. If there are too many surplus hatchery fish, then I feel they should be recycled or, have the meat hunters show up to the hatchery with a valid tag and give them a daily limit to take home. After they record the fish on thier tag. It would end the unnecessary "clubbing" incidents and the fish wouldn't go to waste.

[Bait O' Eggs]

Snagging is wrong, why is it wrong.... well I guess because that is the way I was taught. Fish should bite the offering before we can catch and keep them. 100 years ago this would have been a foreign thought. Automobiles have only been around a little over 100 years, can you imagine riding your horse to a river 100 years ago to catch dinner or go hungry and releasing the foul hooked fish on your cane pole [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif[/img]

I guess we dont need the fish to keep from going hungry in todays age. It has become a game (sport)for us to go play, and we have created rules to abide by to challenge ourselves, and maintain a healthy run of fish. The people who are not very good at the game need to do things like snagging to make it easier so they can experience the bent rod. All sports have cheater, ie. steroids for track athletes,, illegal recruiting in college football, night sticks in ice skating [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif[/img] . Some of the better fisherman get flustrated when the fish wont bite and try to put a hook in there mouth without a bite. This makes it look like a bite to many and they can keep the "good" fisherman status because they put a fish on the bank. There are a lot of people who feel like a failure when they have to say they didnt catch a big fish. This has led to the famous fishermans lies about the size of the fish that got away, and the number of fish caught.

There are those that need to cheat in todays game to feel acomplished. I for one choose to play by the rules as best I can, and tell it like it is. We dont need snagging in todays age to get rid of surplus fish. I would rather see them rot on the bank, or ground into cat food, than have to fish next to the pond scum that snagging brings to the rivers. Leave the rules as they are and when the golf ball lands in the rough take your next shot from where the ball came to rest. Dont keep the snagged fish and dont make it legal to snag them. I like the rules as they are, if you cannot succeed with the current rules, quit fishing, and take up television as a hobby so you can be a winner too.

[Pilar]

I saw this on Lake Michigan in the early 80's. Ugleeee. This type of fishing just attracts the worst from the shallow end of the gene pool.

Let's not do it here.

[OR Coast Range]

If it was legal to snag fish, what's the next step? Nets for "sports"fishermen (using the term "sports" loosely). If the fish aren't biting, tough. I can't tell you the number of times that I've gone home skunked without even a bump [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif[/img] but counted the trip a success. Its nice just being out there.

In my mind, snagging = netting = unnecessary stress on our fishery. Just because we are in the middle of a banner year for Spring Chinooks doesn't mean that next year or the year after is going to be the same.

[superfly]

Great Responses, The way I see it then Most people are totally against it in any form.
You are absolutley right about the anti's having a field day with it, it would bunch all Fisherman regardless of how or what we fish for in the same ugly catagory.
Then why do they allow this in some places???
Peace Superfly

[parker]

Um, I'm pretty sure you all know my feelings towards snaggers! [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

PS. Hooked and *lost* three chrome steelies on the Skykomish this am. Maybe I should be called "The Steelhead Cracker!"

Lost one on old, freyed (sp?) leader that snapped.

Lost one on a jig where I couldn't reel fast enough to catch up to it.

Lost a huge 15lb chrome hen by being...welll...stupid. I just put my thumb down on the spool and snapped it off.

How do I know it was a 15lb. nate? Some guy literally ran below me, corked me, and hooked the same fish on the very next cast. He gave me my jig back after letting the fish go. D'oh!

[sinker]

The way I see it is there's a fine line that you can't really define. If it's obvious someone is attempting to snag fish, nail them to the wall!!
In a fishery thats got far more than enough fish, maybe keeping foul hooked ones wouldn't be so bad. I know I've had a few that looked like they'd be good on the BBQ.
I like RT's idea of the food bank thing, but right now that's not reasonable. It could be done but no one wants to. Slimy smelly fish aren't as nice as canned beans to deal with. Heck there's gutted chum littering the bank at Hoodsport. They're already gutted and no one still wants to mess with them.
I fish the Carbon and its a snag fest. I break them off when I see them foul hooked. Not worth the risk to me. Besides if I kept my foul hooked ones I couldn't stick around and watch the antics down there. [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img] The state knows this is a snag fest and seems to ignore it. I've heard rumors of people being cited but have never seen it. Used to drive by every day and never seen the fish copss truck there. Would work out to some easy revenue for the state.
BTW, I seen WA finally ditched the white fish cops trucks and went with brown. You can barely see the logo on the side now. I couldn't believe it when they went to white ones. May as well have put a neon sign on them that said "GAME WARDENS COMING"
At least that was a wise move for once by the game dept.

But what about the folks that need the fish for food? For sustainance?

There was a period when I was growing up where my mother's bank teller income was all we had, as my father was an injured and displaced rubber mill worker. We were literally eating either salmon or steelhead three to four times a week, as we really didn't have a whole lot much else. And as I've said in the past my dad has been known to force-feed some fish (not that I agree with it now).

It would be difficult to police "snagging allowed only for the needy" obviously, but the question remains. If it is a matter of my kids eating or not and the fish aren't biting, I feel that I would be left with little choice but to snag the fish.

[Killertraylor]

Snagging is good...for herring. We're all so emotional about this issue because we hate it when we do the right thing (waiting hours on end for that strike on days when the fish aren't on the bite) and some slob comes up and violates the law and leaves in 15 minutes with snagged fish. This is the same reason we hate gillnetting even though it's legal (which probably ****** us off more then the snagging which is illegal) Maybe someday when it's illegal to snag herring people will be as emotional about herring snagging as they are about salmon snagging. It's actually kind of amusing to me - we think it's o.k. if we can trick a fish into biting something with a hook in it, but it's not o.k. to try and hook a fish in some other part of it's body. It makes sense, assuming that tricking them into biting is more difficult than sticking them in the side with a hook. I've never tried snagging, but it seems like it would be pretty difficult - must be easy though if it's such a big issue. Because I mostly fish deep water, it's never been an issue where I fish. This has been an interesting thread for me to read - thanks for starting it, superfly.

[hustlerrjim]

when the hatchery gets there quota I have always been a staunch advocate of opening the river for a 1/2 mile below the hatchery to snagging why not utilize this resourse

oh yeah by the way the odfw budget hearings come up june 5 at 1:00 -2:00 at the capitol be there
legislation for snagging may be on the agenda

[DanS]

fobb,

If you're hungry enough, I guess one might resort to snagging. It wouldn't make it the right thing to do, but if you had a choice of snag or go hungry, I think some would choose to snag. BUT, you would still be deserving of a ticket if you were caught. I'm sure you could put quite a bit of food on your table for what the ticket would cost you.

Besides that, after you buy a license, tackle, rod/reel, gas, and other associated items, fishing isn't a very cost-effective way to feed the family. At a couple bucks a pound, buying fish would be cheaper.

[sinker]

uh, haven't seen any decent fish lately for a couple of bucks a pound.
Majority of people already have the expensive stuff to fish. All you need to snag is cheap, small corkies, hooks, weight.

[Joe Schwab]

From a retired game cop's perspective, snagging always presented some interesting conversations. Kind of like shooting deer out of season. It's ok if you "need" the meat and the game warden doesn't catch you. Or "we used it for camp meat and didn't waste any." "The fish was hooked close to the mouth and probably struck the lure anyway". "he was bleeding bad and would die anyway". Believe me there are a million reasons and a lot of them are good. My boss and I used to argue about the morality of it. My feeling was that morality had nothing to do with it. It was and is a matter of ETHICS. The fish could care less how he was killed. We fantasize about how honorable it is to entice a fish to bite our offering and somehow the fish feels better about being caught this way. Whether he is killed in a net, with a spear, snagged or fair hooked he is still going to end up dead.... We as anglers have decided that is is ethical to catch fish in the mouth. It became law through the efforts of the angler but to leap to the belief that snagging is inherently immoral, I think stretches the imagination. If you want to believe breaking the law is immoral, fine. But there are areas where snagging is legal and therefore moral. Ultimately I agree snagging is normally, not a good idea but it has it's place in the harvest scheme. It is slightly better than clubbing and as used in several parts of Alaska quite entertaining to watch. The tackle companies love it, broken rods, spooled reels , etc.

[hustlerrjim]

I agree with sinker 100%, go to the trask and watch the double corky setups,this is snagging in disguise,and a lot of people enjoy this type of fishing,after all 20% of the fish is HEAD, ALL THEY GOT TO DO IS HOOK IT IN THE HEAD AND IT IS CONSIDERED LEGAL,
a few years back they started that fishery on the n. f. nehalem somebody threw in about 100 ft of old barbed wire in the hole, put a cure to that bs

[DanS]

You can argue about the morality/ethics of breaking the law all you want, but lining/snagging is illegal in Washington state. If you get caught, you take the lumps. It may not be immoral or unethical to speed down I-5, but if the WSP or OSP catches you doing it, your going to pay a fine.

If snagging is allowed in ANY area, it is almost as if the state endorses this practice, and it would lead to snagging in other areas ("well, they allow snagging on X river, why not here?) It would become an enforcement nightmare.

Laws exist for a reason. If everyone acted according to their own principles, we'd be a lawless, disorderly society. Once a law is on the books, you either follow it, or you get a ticket or arrested.

What if you need food for the table, and you decided to heist somebody's wallet in order to get it? If it was your wallet, would you think that was OK? I wouldn't, and I expect most other people here wouldn't either. Snagging or wallet heisting are both illegal, so why try to justify one action and not the other?

Alaska may allow lining, but Washinton doesn't. If you don't like the regs. talk to the WDFW, but don't think that your circumstances justify the illegal snagging of fish. The laws should apply to everyone equally, the poor, the well off, and the in-between. Otherwise, EVERYONE could find a "reason" to snag, or speed, or steal.

I believe allowing snagging in any fashion would be a big step backwards in fish management, and would encourage people to think that lining is a legitimate way to fish. Where it's leagl, it IS legit, but it isn't in WA and I'd rather not see it become legit.

I'm not being unsympathetic to those in need, heck I lived for weeks at a time in college on potatoes, cheese and bread. Sure I was hungry all the time, but that isn't an excuse for not following the laws set forth by the gov't. Like Baretta said "don't do the crime, if you can't do the time". Whether or not you can do the time is up to each of us individually.

[dawhunt]

I used to go up to the salmon hatchery on the washougal and watch the snagfest going on up there,it was supposed to be for retired people(older people)it was a very ugly thing to see.I've seen fish held compelety out of the water with hooks in them from both sides of the river and neither
person willing to give up.The oak park bridge in Camas,Wa. is not a legal snagging in fact snagging is illegal every where in the state.Its not safe to go down there,even the fish cops don't go down there alone they useually have a state cop with them.I'm telling you guys its really an awful thing to see.I feel sorry for the people that try to fish legal down there hook a fish then some A----- for a better name with 60 lb line casts clear over the river over his line hooks go down the line snag the salmon then he bascilly steals the fish from the guy who hooked it legally.I watch from up on the bridge,I won't even go down there the fish cops do the best they can but as soon as they leave it starts all over again.The same thing at the steel bridge on the washougal.I don't really know what can be done to stop it cus its so rampent the cops can't possibly deal with it all.It makes us all look bad.The reason its done in alaska in certain areas is like the guy above says get there fish and get out to make more room.They have certain areas they plant just for that purpose fish will come back to bays that have no way out and just swim around in a circle untill there caught,can't be pretty.
Bob [img]images/icons/frown.gif[/img]

[Crusty]

I seem to remember that there are areas around the Great Lakes where snagging is allowed; but then again, I seem to remember when I was young, virile, extremly good looking and highly sought after by hot babes...Hmmmm What was the subject again?

Crusty

[Trick]

I can see where at one time snagging had a purpose, but not now. We have food banks, food stamps, welfare, etc... to protect people from starving to death. So I won't buy into that argument.

Besides being illegal, which should be enough reason to most, it just doesn't feel right to me. I did it in my youth and I don't feel proud but I moved beyond it. This is a sport more than a form of sustanence(SP) today. Fishing is not a cheap hobby and it will buy truckloads of ramen noodles if your starving. Remember where setting an example for future sport fisherman, I'd like to see the "trash" image thats being associated with us eliminated.

A couple off comments specifically about what Dan has said. Not singling him out for any reason other than it's his bad day. [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Besides that, after you buy a license, tackle, rod/reel, gas, and other associated items, fishing isn't a very cost-effective way to feed the family.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

With the help of gifts or garage sales a person can get setup for salmon fishing, including the license and tags, for $50. It doesn't take much, and if you get 30-50 lbs of meat per trip while spending $10 on gas then it's suddenly very cheap food.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If snagging is allowed in ANY area, it is almost as if the state endorses this practice, and it would lead to snagging in other areas ("well, they allow snagging on X river, why not here?) It would become an enforcement nightmare.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There are plenty of community-specific rules that people have to deal with. Bow hunting-only hunts. Flyfishing-only waters. No bait streams. It wouldn't be any more difficult to police or segregate.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>What if you need food for the table, and you decided to heist somebody's wallet in order to get it? If it was your wallet, would you think that was OK? I wouldn't, and I expect most other people here wouldn't either. Snagging or wallet heisting are both illegal, so why try to justify one action and not the other?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sorry, but you cannot compare snagging fish and stealing a wallet. One of the fundamental parts of fishing is the acceptance that the fishes life is less valuable than a humans. You would bait a hook, set a hook to legally hook a fish, land the fish, and then whack it on the head to take it home and eat it. You would not do the same to a human (I hope). Therefore, crimes against animals are lesser than crimes against people.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Alaska may allow lining, but Washinton doesn't. If you don't like the regs. talk to the WDFW, but don't think that your circumstances justify the illegal snagging of fish. The laws should apply to everyone equally, the poor, the well off, and the in-between. Otherwise, EVERYONE could find a "reason" to snag, or speed, or steal.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This law was set up because of the majority's ethics at the time, as well as helping ensure that enough fish return to propegate the species as man had started taking far more than the runs could sustain. Prior to that the settlers in the Oregon territory did whatever they had to do to put food on the table. And if they had to hand-catch, snag, net, or whatever to put food on the table then so be it. They were trying to survive.

There are a limited number of HATCHERY programs (Wind is obviously an example) where the returning runs far exceed what the hatchery can handle. To keep it from turning into a riot you would need to police it. But as long as people take their limit and leave, then why not?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I'm not being unsympathetic to those in need, heck I lived for weeks at a time in college on potatoes, cheese and bread. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sure, as college students many of us came up with some interesting recipes for ramen. But when you factor children into the equasion then it's a whole different story.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Like Baretta said "don't do the crime, if you can't do the time". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Um, is quoting Robert Stack a good idea? I mean, he's innocent until proven guilty but let's just say that it looks kinda fishy... [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

I'm all for fishery management. And as much as the purists find it abhorrent (as fly anglers see the bait tossers) that snagging could become legal, it is something that should at least be considered as a possibility.

[Salmonator]

Hey Fobbster, it's Blake not Stack. (Damit Jim i'm a fisherman not a celebrity expert!) [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

[Trick]

It seems funny that with one or two good seasons we forget about the 90's and start dreging up this "snag alternative" topic. Our fortunes will turn again with the tides and I don't think we should even consider this change in law. Don't open the box. When the "bonus" runs collapse again, and they will, we don't want to be trying to revert laws and policies back. It just seems unreasonable to me. I'd buy off on the hatchery/tag fill idea long before considering this.


I guess I know what to buy some of you now for x-mas. I'll put together a basket with some 50lb line, a pack of trebles and a roll of hollowcore lead. [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

[bob b]

Maybe my post yesterday was too critical,too narrow minded. If snagging was legalized then fishermen,fisherpersons,could become snaggermen,snaggerpersons. A new web site, isnag.hookem,moderated by thevillageidiot could be started,new tackle invented,we could be on the ground floor of something big. Serious,If a person was poaching during hard times to feed a family we can look the way,999 times out of a 1000,this is not the case.

Heh, Blake...Stack...whatever. I'm thinking that Robert Blake might just show up on Robert Stack's show sometime soon.

tshickam,

In fisheries specifically like the Wind where it is a continually successful hatchery run, it can be managed as such just as the Metolious is managed as a wild fishery or as the Deschutes is managed at varying locations with various tackle restrictions.

The hatchery has enough fish. The rest will die and rot, or be ground up into cat food or Chalupas. The charities cannot afford the refridgeration to distribute them to the needy, so let's open it to snagging?

Just stirring turds, I guess.

Good posts Dan. And Fobb, not that you would want to but you would make a terrible lawyer! The lame rational reasons put forth in favor of snagging here by otherwise respected members has me perplexed!! Outright bothersome! ...

Excess hatchery fish can and are used to feed needy people, given to the Indians, and lower graded ones sold to petfood companies for badly needed fishery dept revenue. Get real!

RT

[Kim Katsion]

I know of only one place on the Kenai peninsula in Alaska where it is legal to snag, and that is the Homer spit fishing hole. If there are other places I am not aware of them.

I think there are other ways to address issues of people going hungry other than snagging. Take here in Alaska for example, residents can subsistence fish and feed their families for the whole year.

Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day, teach a man to fish and he will be able to eat forever. I may not have it exactly right, but you get the point. Kim

I've gotten in trouble for speaking in absolutes when trying to make a point but with this subject I don't care. Any snag fishery for salmon is wrong,creates a law enforcement nightmare and should never be allowed on our rivers! Open the 1/2 mile below a hatchery to snagging for excess salmon? Are you serious? Envision discarded 50lb. test mono strewn along the river bank along with garbage,beer cans,cigarette butts just to name some of the debrie left behind. Add to that the traffic problems and the inevitable "disagreements" among this outstanding class of "sportsmen". Go to Eagle Creek on the Clackamas this fall if you want to see what a snag fishery might look like.
Stew

[HT Buzzo]

New ifish member, somewhat of a fence-rider on this issue.
On less populated rivers I have seen people occasionally pull in a fish by the jaw or the fin and keep it. They weren't trying to snag and we were all fairly low on hookups, so it didn't seem like much of a crime to keep.
I've also seen holes on crowded rivers with lots of fish, like the wind or eagle creek, where many fish were being snagged and either played out or straight lined and busted off(sometimes several per hour.) Admittedly, this can't be helped except by learning to judge the feel of a line being bumped or pulled rather than bit. It seems harsh anyway, and I wouldn't like to see a fishery where everyone was there jerking on line pulls willy-nilly. Its disrespectful to the fish, and they deserve my respect for feeding my family.
I wouldn't mind people relaxing a little over the former situation, however, as long as fishermen have the understanding that you can't do it all the time, or expect to get all of your fish in this snagging manner.
As far as the law is the law argument is concerned, i've never been one for an absolute police state. As I see more and more people being arrested for more and more trivial crimes, it is up to us who are fairly responsible and informed to speak out when we are on the river and try to raise the level of consciousness.

Like the site, its a great resource!
HT

[FishinMission]

Geez....I remember hearing stories of "Pitchforks" in the old days...like on the Kilchis and Miami rivers. Surprised nobody brought that up. I'm wondering that if a snagfest would be allowed, how many fish you'd find in the bushes with all their guts intact minus their eggs. Snagging is a bad idea no matter where you're talking about.

[Joe Schwab]

I had the opportunity in the 70s to work snaggers at Pacific City boat ramp hole, a real collection of slobs. We had to use our own vehicles, get out and pretend we were snagging just to get close. How things have changed. Several years ago I revisited just to see what was happening. One guy was ripping a buzz bomb and came under verbal fire from the rest. He then manged to hook one in the side of course and horsed it in. He released it by tossing it back in belly up and was immediately jumped by two or three others fishing there demanding that he release the fish properly. He meekly waded in recovered the fish and pulled it hrough the water till it revived properly. What a change! Peer pressure works.
Incidentally Alaska allows snagging at most terminal fisheries once the sport season is winding down. This includes Seward, most of Kachemak Bay Terminal areas only accessible by boat and the hatchery area in Juneau. It is not meant to be sport by any stretch of the imagination any more than dipnetting. It is simply the most expedient means of removing edible fish that in a few weeks are going to turn and die unable to get to spawning areas. Ugly, yes, no argument there. One of the biggest problems on the Kenai River over the years has been bank degradation by anglers trying to catch 6 sockeye per day. The runs are enhanced by the gillnet industry to the point where too many sockeye enter the system and must be harvested. (at least this is what the biologists say) Gillnetting is not an option in the river. Snagging is not allowed even so called lining. However the wardens tend to look the other way when it is done simply because the impact of thousands of anglers is doing more harm to the growth on the banks and the whole purpose of the fishery is to harvest and get them out of the system. To those who have not been there lining is the practice of pulling the hook through the water rather sharply and getting the line into the mouth of the sockeye then "setting" the hook. Like it or not that is how it is done. You can get arrested for what one game warden put it as " causing the hook to enter the outside of the jaw rather than the inside of the jaw". By the way O.C. fishermen are very adept at catching sockeye on the Kenai.

Fobb,

My father works with the St. Matthews Luthern Church in the SCAT program to feed needy families year round. They have several large freezers that keep fish and poultry preserved in proper wrappings. Some of those come from hatcheries and farms by donation. He has heard of other programs recieving such as well; in addition to less perishable items. Why would you question such a good thing when they are handled properly; unlike the way snag dragged fish and many 'sportsmens' and netter's catches are handled? The distribution of such has to be under strict guidelines of food safety. ...

I'm glad to hear you at least like the addtional revenue the dept takes in from the sale of the marginal fish to petfood companies. ...

Also, many hatchery surplus fish are given to Indian Tribes and are used as a leverage point in future allocation negotiations (reference Guy Norman - head of ODFW Columbia River allocation negotiation team). ...

I am just very suprised I would have to tell any sportfishermen these things to swing them away from a pro-snagger mentality; regardless of any given year's return of fish! Besides, even if those entities didn't make good use of excess hatchery fish, the small minority of pro-snaggers posting here have seemingly just disregarded the correct mention of by anti-snaggers of the negative pitfalls of such an ugly scene. Perhaps a re-read and then some more soul searching will swing those in favor of snagging fish in rare years of better fish numbers over to those opposed to this crap? ...

That's all I have to say about this issue.

RT

[boater]

[ 06-02-2001: Message edited by: boater ]

Thank you for clarifying your previous post Steve. It helps out greatly in the spirit of debate.

One final question: What is the difference between a successful hatchery (non-native) run of fish and any other creature raised as a food stock (chickens, cows, etc)? We've got enough reproductive stock to continue the herd/flock/school, so wouldn't the rest of them be slaughtered? Certainly not left to die.

Maybe encouraging snagging is not the answer. Maybe all the fish should be accepted into the hatchery, dressed, and then sold at a temporary retail stand either at the hatchery or at a more centralized location.

I guess I just hate to see good fish go to waste. As long as someone is going hungry, there is never too much food.

[bob b]

fobbman. I grew up in an area where if you had an interest in hunting or fishing most people thought you were a barbarian,a bambi killer. Groups like greenpeace and peta would have great time with photos of fish being snagged and clubbed on a bank. Portland voters reacted to pictures of cougars being treed by dogs. While we can have different opinions,I think as a group we should support only practices that promote good sportmanship. The way things are today every practice a fisherman or hunter supports is put under a microscope and we're all judged. It's hard to control slobs but we have some control on how to go about our sport. The solution might be to let the uncaught fish naturally return to the eco-system.?

[BUGLEMAN]

The Wind river is the best of a fishery.

In my opinion lining should be legal and it is not done with a sharp jerk and the end. Any fishing done with or by a sharp jerk is snagging. Mostly if you are sweeping the leader through the water (lining) at the right depth you will get more takes and learn to feel the bottom and takes and get more proper hooksets.

Snagging is disgusting especially when done outside the rules. Just as a kid with a new car something for nothing does bring out the worst. I watched guys snag on the wind today. They spent more time losing snagged fish than if they just had some good Sand shrimp they could have taken those exellent spotting skills and put the bait right in thier face. They were really sucking my shrimp today but some jack asses were snagging the prime water and had all the fish stirred up.

My .02

I am troubled by the wasted fish that we paid for. I like the idea of being able to go to the hatchery and get a couple fish. Let's just say 2 per year and you have to tag them to start with. We paid for em let's eat em. I say much better than snagging.

RT-

I would be more than happy to help you out of your feeling of being perplexed but I'm afraid that you did not actually come forth with anything. Just saying that my points were "bothersome" doesn't help in the spirit of debate.

I'm not familiar with any programs currently running in the Willamette Valley that distribute edible salmon caught from local streams that distribute to the needy. Could you please share some insight?

Additional funds provided by the sale of carcasses to the fast food...er...cat food industry is a great idea, and I'm all for additional money to help boost our hatchery programs. How about a special snagging license in these special streams? There's some funds!

And thanks for the career suggestion. Luckily I have a new job and only have to WORK with attorneys and not be one. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[Jellyhead]

OK, I mentioned this in the Wind River Experience thread, so I thought I would throw it in here just for food for thought.

Carp--It's legal to snag them, In fact I can legaly shoot them w/my bow. I have never seen any trash left behind by carp-shooters. I've never met a maniac, rude carp-shooter. There are no hoards of people shooting carp. So why don't we open an archery season for salmon????

Well, the answer is obvious. Because salmon are such a prized, sought after fish. And the quality of the flesh is excellent, There are people who will bend and break the rules. Because of the status associated w/salmon--you have a set of ethics that would not accomadate archery seasons on this fish. Would it be less moral to shoot salmon or snag them if legal to do so?

My opinions on snagging to feed a family....SNAG CARP!!! It is legal to do so. Poor starving people are not eating T-Bone steaks. They eat what they can afford/legally obtain. And it would be as cheap as snagging salmon

Well, I'll be quiet now. Just for the record. I oppose snagging. I shoot carp because it is legal to do so. Would I shoot or snag salmon if legal to do? Probably not. I tend to adhere to the ethics that have been created to fit the prized and tasty salmon.

Aaron

[Hoosier Daddy]

Bad idea. PETA would be all over that one. Fishing and hunting are under serious threat already from animal rights people with standard, fair play regulations in effect. If we go to a "kill em however ya want", its just like handing them the plunger to blow up our sports. Biologically, makes no difference how you harvest fish (to some extent), but socially, hoo boy. I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole. But hey, they do it on the Mississipi for paddlefish, only way to catch the things.

[rob allen]

Lining, flossing and snagging are all exactly the same. If the fish doesn't volentarily take the lure or bait it is a snagged fish. In Washington catching fish in such a manner is illegal.
I grew up on the Washougal river just a few miles from the salmon hatchery where the snag fishery used to occur. People came literally from all around the world to fish it. but regardless of where they came from they were the same type of people. Slobs! I hate to talk bad about anyone but I have to tell the truth. A whole generation of people grew up snagging but it started out as only the truly scummy people whu did it. I know I was there I saw it. So when the snag fishery was closed or became too crowded thoes same people would spill over to the rest of the river and runined the fishing for everyone else. They would gang up at all the big pools and like any other fishery less experienced fishermen would join them and learn the method.
Now because of snagging the Washougal river is closed during the fall chinook run and rightly so.
Snagging is not only illegal but is Evil!
The favord method now is to fish about a 6 foot leader with a corkie tied on behind the hook. The forkie is behind the hook for one reason. So it doesn't interfer with the hook gap.
If you use this rig you are snagging!
I have no room for grace towards snaggers. I have salmon and steelhead fished for about 23 years in all that time I have foul hooked 1 fish that being a steelhead from a pool filled (i mean filled) with coho. I made one cast my stee-lee bumped about 10 fish on that cast until the steelhead spooked aas the lure hit him and was hooked. That was the only cast I made.
If a foul hooking happens with any regularity at all your methods are faulty and you should change the way you fish.
If I had my way a person caught intentionally snagging (wheather a fish is caught or released) there should be a 1000 dollar fine and a lifetime loss if fishing priviledge with absolutely no possibility of grace. Same goes with keeping a wild fish.
Like I said I truly hate saying anything bad about anyone but snaggers are the scum of the earth.

So then if we follow the same logic we should therefore restrict hunters to keeping only the deer that shoot themselves in a fit of dispair? [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

Just color me the Devil's advocate.

[DanS]

fobb,

Don't use the word "logic" when making a goofy statenment like that. Is that what is required by the game laws? No. Then your point is moot.