Wind River Response

Michael, AKA (Steelhead King)
& I-Fish Members:

I am not a member of any fishing chat board, but I did view Michael Parker's video on ifish.net. I was directly standing above him, watching him film anglers last Saturday and after reading I-Fish member comments I felt compelled to respond. First, there are a number of spots in the Northwest as well as Alaska where Chinook are unwilling to bite. Therefore, many anglers have developed the method of using long leaders and small Corkies to line-hook Chinook, legally, in the mouth. Many anglers are very successful using this technique. Do you consider this learned technique 'snagging' and not sportsman-like? I reviewed Mike Parker's fishing web page, and it appears to me that he uses multiple techniques to fish for salmon and steelhead in various rivers under different conditions? Am I not correct? The angler he captured on video was indeed using a learned fishing technique, just like Mike Parkers personal learned fishing techniques. In my opinion, he was not 'snagging.' He looked like a very accomplished angler who knows how to hook non-biting Chinook in the mouth. The first fish I saw him hook was in the mouth and he let the fish go. The second video filmed by Mike Parker and the comments from I-Fish Members, about the kid hand-lining the Chinook are innaccurate. This fish was not caught by the person hand-lining the fish. The angler above him could not reel in the fish and the kid asked if he could hand-line it and release it for him. It looked to me as though the guy with the net wanted to keep a foul-hooked fish and the guy hand-lining the fish purposefully broke the line. An I Fish-Member also wrote that the kid broke his rod on the fish in the video and that is not correct. The kid broke his rod trying to release a fish he had foul-hooked, previous to releasing the hand-lined fish of another person. I was really entertained last Saturday, watching from above. Parker mentioned white-trash and how unclean it is on the Wind River Bank, but I did not see him pack out any garbage when he left. I believe his friend "Superfly" mentioned he always packs out garbage? I may be wrong, but I'm sure I saw his buddies and himself, throw cigarette butts on the bank? I also witnessed the two guys who were with Parker in the video, foul-hook fish, and not to mention the girl who foul-hooked at least one. Yes, they were 'swinging' their rod just like the fisherman in the video. In fact, 'Kid Sauk' did a wonderful job letting his bait rest on the bottom at the end of his drift, waiting for a line bump! I also noticed that Parker's friend 'Kid Sauk', who landed the salmon in the video, purposefully, break off a foul-hooked salmon and what do you think happens when you do this? The hook will sometimes stay embeded in the fish with a few feet of 20lb. leader attached. What is the best way to take care of a foul-hooked fish? Land it and remove your gear so it is less likely to get foul-hooked again or break-off and watch the fish keep jumping and swimming like a freight train to rid itself of the hook. I know there is a surplus of fish in the Wind and the hatchery has met their quota, but Parker's friend mentioned "Meat-Hunters." How many fish did this group pack out of that hole? It looked liked 6-8? Out of those fish retained, how many were biters? Yes, they lined a few, wether they believe it or not. How many hours did they leave the fish halfway in the baking sun and halfway in the stagnant 'pool water.' I wonder if they noticed all the flies laying eggs in the gills? I saw many fisherman foul-hook fish and mouth-line fish and release them, one after another. Is there anything wrong with this Superfly? In a spot like this, under these conditions, with a surplus of salmon, this will occur. Is this wrong? I have seen it occur in many rivers in many states. Do you believe this is wrong under the given conditions? They may have different values than some fisherman and that is good, but there is a time and a place where certain fisherman do not care if they are
'mouth-lining' salmon, it's a learned technique and one has to fish a lot to learn the feel' of the line as fish is trying to spit the leader out. Parker claims to be a Steelhead Master, therefore he must be an accomplished drift fisherman, yes? Well, how many fish do you think he mouth-line-hooks? Isn't it strange when your drift fishing and not paying attention and all of a sudden a steelhead is flying out of the water with a hook and Corkie in its mouth. Have you ever wondered what percentage of the steelhead you catch drift fishing are actually biting the Corkie compared to the line moving through their mouth and hooking themselves? Yes, a fisherman may have a good idea when looking at where the hook is located in a fishes mouth but isn't there a shady area to this hypothesis? I know many fisherman in 'spots' like the Wind who simply enjoy the fight of the fish, wether the fish is 'mouth-lined' or not and yes, with a lot of fish in any river, fish will be foul-hooked when drift fishing. I do believe, that if a fisherman foul-hooks a salmon, he/she should release the fish (should you break it off right away or is it okay to fight it, remember, if handled correctly, and landed quickly, the mortality rate is very low). Remember, there is no law that states what the angler is compelled to do. In my opinion, the fisherman Parker filmed did just this. He landed them quickly and handled them efficiently, when he foul-hooked them and he did the same with the salmon he mouth-lined and Parker portrayed it in a different light. Fishing is fishing, people have different values and ethics and in my opinion, I believe Parker and his buddies have the attitude that they believe they are above the rest? "Purist bait fisherman"? Next time, leave your camera at home and your opinions to yourself if you are going to distort what actually occured. One more question...'Superfly', why were you passing out packs of hooks to anglers who you claim were 'snagging?' and 'White Trash?' I'll never visit the Wind River again and I will strongly suggest to anyone to stay away from that mess. It's a Joke!

This thread has the potential of getting ugly real fast but I think the people named here should be given the chance to respond to the accusations made against them. So if things can remain civil the moderators will remain in the background if not then it will get deleted.
Stew

[DanS]

Look 002,

Lining fish is ILLEGAL in Washington state. The game laws are VERY clear about that. It states that the fish "must voluntarily bite" your offering. Lining is NOT having a fish voluntarily take anything. If you need further clarification, call a WDFW enforcement officer and ask them if lining is legal. (BTW, the answer will be "NO").

Now, if you're done telling us how to snag (yes, lining is snagging) a non-biting salmon, then we can discuss other things. If they're not biting, then too F-ing bad, come back when they ARE biting.

If you have a problem with Parker, then take it up with him, but don't come here and try to legitimize snagging by using the excuse "they wouldn't bite". Some states may allow lining, but Washington DOESN'T.

[ 05-31-2001: Message edited by: DanS ]

[Spooled]

This should be good! [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif[/img] Good post Dan S.

[ 05-31-2001: Message edited by: Spooled ]

Hey 002,

Just a few quick things from me ... the over-all theme of your post was critical of Superfly and friends. As I see it you based it on 2 things you mentioned - 1) 'that you may be wrong', but think they dropped cigarette butts on the ground. 2) You claim they lined some of the fish they kept. ...

Both those things are uncertain assumptions on your part! Yet you hypocritically critisize Parker for his filmed assumptions. How does that work dude? Sounds like you have some kind of issues with these guys that you did not mention? I have fished with these guys on occassion and they are very accomplished fishermen that don't need to 'line' fish. I expect it happens at times to all good fishermen that they unintentionally line snag fish in the mouth and don't have a way to know that. But Dan S. is correct, if you practice getting proficient at this lining tech, with many being hooked just outside the mouth in the outer jawline, it's illegal and unethical fishing - period. Also, these friends are among the ethical minority who do indeed pack out garbage. Did you pack any out? Doesn't sound like it. ...

As for me personally, I don't care to fish in an overcrowded crackerfest. I hope the WDFW will find success in planting the Idaho/Wind strain of springers out more evenly in several rivers so as to avoid the congestion of wasted fish and fishermen.

RT

[superfly]

First of all I will be very civil about this! I do not want to have ugly e-mails and alse assumptions flying around everywhere.
1. I do not smoke and never have.
2. I only kept 2 fish and both were legally taken, I foul hooked several and as soon as I saw they were I straight lined them and broke em off, so not to wear out the fish or waste my time.
3. Yes I was giving hooks out to everyone no matter how they were fishing, I cannot make anyone change there ways as far as that goes, but in giving out free samples it has worked as an excellent tool for my business.
4. Parker and Myself do not see eye to eye on every thing aboput fishing but he is one guy who will fish as hard and long as I do with out giving up, and yes he is an accomplished angler.
5. My pack was full of litter that I had collected throughout the day, also I don't know if you noticed my girlfriend and I also throwing fish carcasses and guts back into the river to cut down on the flies and the stench.
6. I hope to see you on the 16th and we can all do something good and then catch some fish.
Peace Superfly

[Thumper]

Perhaps some perspective here. I have spent a lot of years watching (and participating involuntarily) in the lining of fish. On the Oswego and Salmon rivers of upstate New York we have watched very accomplished fishermen lining Chinook and even Skamania steelies. In fact some of these guys are so good they can pick out the brightest fish in a pack (usually a hen) and specifically line her. I have also watched hundreds of sockeye lined in Alaska. Last year when flyfishing the East Alsak in SE Alaska we could almost always, at times, get a line-hooked sockeye on every cast just by waiting til the end of the swing and raising the rod tip at that point. And that was on flies! In fact, perhaps the best line-hooking (i.e., snagging) flies of all are the larger size Teeny Nymphs. We tried very hard not to hook those fish in that way, but when there are many fish in a run that is the major way they are caught. We caught perhaps 100 or more in that way, and never on purpose.

Lining (snagging) fish is a reality. And when fish are packed into a small space, as are the Wind River Chinook at this point, it is almost impossible to avoid it. It is also illegal, though it would be hard to distinguish between a fair-hooked and a lined fish at times.

[SAUKit2em]

I am also going to be very civil about this since I'm still wondering how this ended up as such a soap opera.

All I'm going to say in my defense is that I don't line fish or snag 'em because I do just fine when they bite on their own. We have footage of you talking to my buddy on my camcorder so I think I know who you are. Big Dave thought you were a pretty nice and knowledgable guy so why the negative publicity towards me and my friends?

Fishing on the Wind is not composed of solitude and seclucsion which makes it what it is.....a zoo.

This is my first month ever fishing that crazy place and I do what I can to fight the crowds and minimize litter as best I can. I always pack out all my own litter and more often than not I pack out litter left by others.

I don't appreciate the personal attack when you don't even know me. You mention me "waiting for line bumps" which is not the case as I only foul hooked one fish which I promptly broke off. I don't want to hold up the show and cause more trauma to the fish by fighting it if it's foul-hooked so I choose to break the line. I have fished with some of the finest and most respected guides in the Northwest and I was taught to break off snagged fish promptly. I know you may not agree with this and I'm sorry you feel that way.

I believe that you are the middle aged gentleman who was on top of the rock talking to Big Dave. If so, then what prompted this? You were not even fishing and my buddy quit fishing for a while because he had two on the bank and that's all he needed. He was kind enough to give up his spot so others could fish.

What you did not mention was the fact that I picked up a bunch of discarded monofilament, plastic bags, and other waste left by fisherman far more inconsiderate than I'll ever be or have been for that matter.

We do not cary the attitude that we are "purist bait-fishermen" and for geez sake we're talking about the Wind river not some B.C. coastal fly fishing paradise.

By the way, we packed out 4 fish total for our group of 7 people. The fish were biting just fine so there was no need to snag or line fish. I'm sure that most experts will agree that it's pretty difficult to line fish with a 2 foot leader and a big gob of eggs. Everybody is entitled to their own opinion so I'll just leave it at that.

Kid Sauk

[Backlash2]

James Bung 00--

As DanS stated earlier, 'lining' fish is illegal in Washington State, PERIOD.

You waste all of our time by trying to defend this practice throughout your entire post. Obviously, you must be a dentist, with all of this preaching about how flossing is 'good' [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]
Yes, mastering the technique of 'lining' fish probably takes some skill. So does poaching a 6pt. bull in September, and not getting caught. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif[/img] Maybe if you 'masters' of snagging would have devoted that time to learning how to cure good eggs, you wouldn't feel justified in your glorified snagging.
You then bust these guys for not packing out other peoples trash. Well, as long as you clean up after yourself, you can go through life with a clean and healthy conscience. If you pick up other people's as well, that's a bonus, and you are an asset to 'true' sport fisherman. You don't have to play maid for everyone else to b*tch about what they do. Then you accuse Joe, who says he has never smoked(cigarettes, that is [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img] ), of throwing butts on the riverbank. I guess your confusion is understandable since you were at the Wind on Memorial day weekend. You were obviously so busy watching other people that maybe you confused him with one of the other 3,000,000 people within eyeshot.
Next you accuse The Sauk River Kid of letting his bait sit at the end of the drift, waiting for a line bump. Again, if you spent more time drift 'fishing', instead of drift 'flossing', you would know that a little modified plunking at the end of a drift does account for many a fair hooked fish. YOU should know that it is a lot easier to 'rub' a fish DURING the drift when your line is across the current than it is when your line is directly below you, parallel to the current.
If you choose to land a snagged fish to unhook it, instead of breaking it off, I have no problem with that....it's a judgement call. I personally go with the break them off theory. I would rather leave a hook in them than waste all of there energy while they fight you pulling on them for an extra 5-10 minutes by the tail, or belly.
Next you rag on them for leaving there fish on the bank or in the river, in the sun. Well, I've fished the Wind dozens of times and have yet to see ANYONE pack an 80 quart cooler full of ice down the hill to 'care' for there fish.
Your lining theory while drift fishing corkies calls for no explanation. The same grey area you use for your argument is the downfall of it. PROVE IT. If you are setting the hook to the 'bite', or the 'pause', and not the 'rub', you are fair hooking fish 99% of the time. Anyone else disagree?? BTW- My head has never been so far up my **s that a fish has broke water from the bottom of a hole with my hook in his mouth, and I haven't already set the hook.
'People have different values and ethics'; exactly, and it will be the downfall of all fishing. There is no room in this day and age for people who's 'values and ethics' allow them to consciously snag fish, just because there is a good return in the river.
You then say that you think Parker and his buddies think that they are better than everyone else, and have a 'purist bait fisherman' attitude. I thought flyfisherman were the 'purists', and bait fisherman were the scurge of the earth?? [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img] I have read hundreds of posts from Joe, Mike, and Justin over the last couple of years, and I don't get an 'elitist' attitude from any of them. I think there heads are screwed on straight, which is rare with you and all your buddies who don't. I have not personally met them yet, but hope to some day, because these are the kind of guys I like to fish with. It gets increasingly hard by the day to meet people who fish with the same attitude toward following the rules, doing the right thing, etc..
I sincerely hope it was your last trip to the Wind, hopefully you'll convince some of your 'flossing' buddies you so staunchly defend with you. Then those of us that have the patience to wait for a fish to actually 'bite' your bait will have a more enjoyable experience there. It does happen. And if you had spent your time learning to cure descent eggs, instead of 'mastering' the 'skill' of flossing fish, you could fair hook fish, too.

[ 06-01-2001: Message edited by: Backlash2 ]

[Osprey]

Hey Windy [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]
I see you've set aside this Special time to humiliate you're self......get a clue

I've fished with Fly,Kid and The 'King"
these Boys know how to catch fish(legally)...straight up!!!

Glad to see you won't be back at Wind....That way the smell should improve [img]images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]

[THE REEL HEY_YALL]

The Flea closes this argument in his reply: "lining fish in Washington is ILLEGAL."

I love it when someone "masters" lining of a fish and they try to back that the fish was legally hooked. That same skill could have been used to fish legally and morally correct.

Dude, you might as well chalk up the LOSS. Joe does not smoke cigarettes [img]images/icons/cool.gif[/img] All that time spent on presenting evidence for your case could have been spent picking up trash.

I'll talk to all walks of life, regardless if I think they are trash or not, especially from an economical standpoint as in Joe's case.

These are my friends you are talking about, honkey. Maybe you could join this board and become a contributing member, instead of tying your 8 foot leaders.

And since you are so bent on the fish biting the corkie, pegging the corkie with a toothpick will keep it from sliding up your line. Now you know, and you can pass it on to your buddies, who were obviously in these videos. Also, you might want to pass onto them that the videos are now sitting over at the HQ for the F & W, courtesy of me (thanks for sending those over to me Parker). So why don't you bring that attitude this way, or you can join us on the 16th for something positive.

Not going down to the Wind anymore, huh? Well that will be more money in Joe's pocket since he won't have to give you free samples, out of his own pocket. Personally, I wouldn't want your kind endorsing my product.

Kinda sucks when you're caught on camera doesn't it???????

[Pilar]

Ok, so what was the point of this thread anyway?

Why does this topic keep resurfacing? If the various individuals involved have personal issues I would suggest they keep them just that 'Personal'. As in flame-mail, pistols at dawn or fists at the Walmart parking lot.

I had some small hope after seeing the organization of a cleanup effort. This was a good thing and the people getting involved in it have their hearts in the right place.

Rehashing the details of the snag festival is not a good thing. Please take your petty finger pointing and BS elsewhere.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I guess it's better to be thought a fool than to hit the 'send' key and remove all doubt.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[DanS]

wait a minute,

Too bad about that "F" you received in Reading Comprehension. They're not going to make you repeat 6th grade, are they?

[wait a minute]

Not condoning "Lining" fish at all, but let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

As posted by: Hey_Yall

THE REEL HEY_YALL
Chromer
Member # 341
posted 10-30-2000 02:23 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thought that some of you might would like to know that there is a small run going on down at the Skookumchuck River. Kings and Silvers. Good luck trying to really entice a bite though, although I use this method when bass fishing during the spawn. You will see the fish holding in shallow, clear currents. When I mean shallow, we're talkin' knee deep. Get about a 2 ft. leader, 2 super-small green corkies, and matching green yarn...cupcake size the yarn....teeney. Cast upstream and guide the bait into the fish...as in mouth for all you snaggers that read this board! What has been happening is that the fish got super aggravated when he gets bopped with it that he literally attacks it. Such fun with the fight being in shallow water and the river is about as wide as a Hummer. Logs everywhere too so watch out.

Sometimes we're all guilty. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[parker]

I'm tired of being civil. BigStew - shut this worthless thread down. Moderate this bad boy!

As I told John Reynolds a couple of days ago, his emails were not worthy my time.

Yes, John Reynolds emailed me that exact same rant from above two days ago. It was personal, and we had a nice wonderful conversation. Apparently, John Reynolds didn't care for my reply, as he's taken the his exact email to me and posted it in a public forum.

He didn't like my responses, so he felt compelled to cry to you all.

I apologize for the likes of a John Reynolds. It's people like John Reynolds that will give ifish a bad name.

BigStew - I am requesting that you delete any and all users associated with John Reynolds and block his IP# from future access to ifish.

He stepped over the line when it went from personal email to a crying fest on ifish.

I will not be further looking at, or responding to this email.

Thanks,

Michael Parker
"The Steelhead King"

[sinker]

Wait a Minute, did you see the part in that message about them attacking it?? Thats just a bit different than snagging!!!!!

This Wind Spy painted a bulls eye on his chest when he started this one.