Law Enforcement Suggestions

[THE REEL HEY_YALL]

Howdy. I've been toying around with this notion for quite some time after fishing some of the larger rivers here in Washington. I've noticed it has come up on the board lately. Well the notion would be a "volunteer" law enforcement net. Not the TIPS line, etc. but something I think would be much more effective. We fisherpeople could be deputized so to say: wear the game uniforms, the badge, and a walkie-talkie to radio in to directly to dispatch.

The people breaking the law usually won't break the law if someone of "authority" has the watchful eye. These lawless people could really feel the sting I think, especially if these "checkers" could issue certain citations, and have immediate access to backup.

Any other suggestions? I think this would be a great "interim" position for young career-minded individuals looking to get experience in law enforcement, retired people, or people in general who are fed up with the ways the resources are being *****.

[Osprey]

You a junior Game Warden [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif[/img] hehehehehehheehhehehe
you better stick to Junior **** Star (key word being "Junior"...............Os

[THE REEL HEY_YALL]

Last time I checked, the "junior" **** stars make more money than the "senior" ones....muh ha ha ha ha ha but the key words are "**** star" [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

Me in law enforcement with my criminal background? I guess it could be worse; I could be president. [img]images/icons/shocked.gif[/img]

Oh yeah, we got a nice lil cell waiting for you boy.

Seriously though, what would it take besides a hickory stick to some dudes' noggins down on the Wind and the Cowlitz before the word got out that there's a new sherriff in town....and he ain't purdeeee.

[FishinMission]

I would prefer to stay anonymous. I like the "stealth" mode of reporting...although sometimes the gamies can't just show up with a phone call. Issuing citations would end the offenses (maybe) but could also get yourself hurt. Too bad people have to break the law.

[THE REEL HEY_YALL]

I like the anonymity as well, but the class usually doesn't cut up when the teacher is in the room. Plus, I would like them to see the face with the citation.

Yes, it could get someone hurt, but it would be just like striking an officer of the law when the uniform is on.

[DK]

good step in the right direction, but to much liability on the state to deputize any body without proper training, my suggestion is to see about getting a direct phone # for the warden of that area so people could call him direct, and if warranted he could could suggest a means of detaining or presueing evidence in convicting the person in question, you as a citizen have the right to up hold the law to what extent without getting in serious trouble i don"t know,

I will be bringing my camcorder and still image camera with me on the 16th. Will be scanning the license plates so we have a record of all who is there and also make sure I get face shots of the offenders. Of course, I have a 40x optical zoom on the camcorder so I don't exactly have to be in their face to get a good shot...

[Artwo]

I wonder if a person can do a citizen arrest kind of thing. If you witness the act and have proof other than your word against their's I would think you could call the authorities and have the person placed under arrest or at least cited. You would probably have to be willing to testify against the person in court for a poaching offense I would think. I like the idea about filming violators and then following them and getting their license number. It might stop if the word gets out after some get busted. Just my thoughts.

JK

[Starr]

On the upper Rogue river, which is a zoo this time of year, there is a volunteer group that distribute themseslves at the combat fishing areas. I don't know if they have been deputised, but they all wear a t-shirt that has a sherrif looking star on it, and every snagger can spot them instantly. Lots of times they will just sit on a rock and watch people fish. Just their pressance completly stops any illegal activity. They don't give out citations that I know of, but they do keep notes and take pictures. When someone catches a salmon, they stand right there to see where it is hooked. I saw one guy keep a questionably hooked fish and it wasn't 10 minutes later that a stater showed up and ticketed him. Nobody thought that that was coincedence, and the fear factor for those volunteers went up 1,000 points. I know a few fishermen that won't even fish holes where the checkers are.
It works extreemly well. We just need to get ahold of someone down there and see how they do it. Great idea Hey-Yall

[Starr]

On the upper Rogue river, which is a zoo this time of year, there is a volunteer group that distribute themseslves at the combat fishing areas. I don't know if they have been deputised, but they all wear a t-shirt that has a sherrif looking star on it, and every snagger can spot them instantly. Lots of times they will just sit on a rock and watch people fish. Just their pressance completly stops any illegal activity. They don't give out citations that I know of, but they do keep notes and take pictures. When someone catches a salmon, they stand right there to see where it is hooked. I saw one guy keep a questionably hooked fish and it wasn't 10 minutes later that a stater showed up and ticketed him. Nobody thought that that was coincedence, and the fear factor for those volunteers went up 1,000 points. I know a few fishermen that won't even fish holes where the checkers are.
It works extreemly well. We just need to get ahold of someone down there and see how they do it. Great idea Hey-Yall

[Dances]

Hey Yall
Have you been eating paint chips again [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif[/img]
I want to play. To many times I have seen people I my home river snag a fish and keep it and it just ticks me off to no end. I think it would be a great program and besides who doesnt like a good rumble here and there when the fishing slows [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]
Do I get my own weapon too [img]images/icons/shocked.gif[/img]
O man just what the world need another redneck with a gun [img]images/icons/blush.gif[/img]
well thanks for letting me play
Jr. out

[ 05-31-2001: Message edited by: FishheadJr.31 ]

I like the premise of your idea Mike. With the right management of such a program I think there's no doubt it would have a strong deterence affect; as with the Rogue River program. ... BTW 'Stew, since I have been among the most outspoken against Indian netting I want to remind that I am against them netting way over their lawful share; not against them getting their fair share. And I agree with you completely that intentional snaggers and property abusing litterheads are even worse lawbreakers than Indians who over-net, due to Gov. loopholes that enable it. The gillnets do likely take more native fish, but we need to get after all this crap going on also, or it's just going to continue to get unbearably worse and harder to stop later. I think that with likely tons of excess fish to become catfood this fall the WDFW & ODFW will too often look the other way when they are fully aware of heavy snagging going on in places such as the Cowlitz and the Clack. trib Eagle Creek. This definitely sends a very strong and wrong message that snagging isn't a big deal with so many fish around! When a warden makes a rare appearance a few are nabbed, but not nearly enough to even amount to a deterance. So ...

... what do the lawful sportfishers among us do to organize such voluntary watchdog groups; with violation reporting and visual deterance effects with camcorders for presence at various 'hot spots'? ....

Put on your ideas fishers. Mine is that you all should become involved by joining an accepted well known fishing advocacy organization called the Association of NW Steelheaders. (Even by filling out a form and sending in your $25 annual dues to help out if you don't have the time to attend). I suggest that 'Stew and Fishbait, or appropriate ANWS officials, introduce this subject to the heads of all the chapters via e-mail memos. Since this is such a widely respected organization I think they could get co-operation from regional game and fish law enforcement departments; particularly in the most snagger and trasher infested areas. They could print out proper guidelines for volunteers to work thru the NW Steelheaders to set up strategically placed watch stations manned by at least 2 people together, with at least one camera and working cell phone. And have a more effective hotline setup arranged for the undermanned enforcement officers to respond to as fast as situations allow. This kind of program would have a big snowballing clean-up effect of the whole region if handled via this established organization that wouldn't be taken as a vigilante group. In addition to the Rogue River example of how effective this can be, remember the Guardian Angel's strong detering affect on crime in N.Y. City., without any weapons? Some trouble occured for the Angels with the odd crack whacked gun toting hardcore criminals, but that's not what we would be facing here. This would be a much easier bunch to clean up if the state will allow us to do what they can't seem to afford to.

RT

[THE REEL HEY_YALL]

Of course these folks would have proper training. We had this thing in B'ham called the "Explorers" which were basically ride-along-one-day-be-an-officer types. They received uniforms, walkie-talkies, nightsticks, flashlights, the badge, ticketbooks, pepper spray, etc. They had the authority of a police officer, just couldn't carry heat.

A lot of people would want to carry heat, but think about it, this is for fishing, not hunting, so the number of people who are strapped will be less than those hunting.

I'm not talking about getting teenage kids out there doing it. Slow down and read folks and just think about it.

[parker]

Heh. Sorry Redneck, but that would be a suicide mission. Ain't gonna volunteer.

I will, however, keep on filming with the video camera.

[ 05-31-2001: Message edited by: The Steelhead King ]

[AuntyM]

Hey Yall's idea is a good one. Sheriff's Departments around the state DO have trained volunteers in place. (not to be confused with Reserve Officers) They can staff a remote office, answer phones, assist with paperwork, do seat belt counts and check parking lots for handicapped parking violations. They take no action on their own.....but they do turn information (which they are properly trained to collect) over to Deputies to investigate as time allows. When you live in a community too cheap to pay for better Law Enforcement...you make do!

[Killertraylor]

I guess I'm the only one who thinks this is a terrible idea. I like the principle, but in reality I can't see it working in Oregon. When you consider that game officers are the lowest rung of the ladder for state police (every DA that loses a case usually chimes "yeah - but my witness was a game cop") and they write terrible citations as it is, the last thing we need are those morons training deputy morons to be looking over everyone's shoulder. I've never experienced a problem in the field that couldn't be corrected with a quick phone call to the state police (who show up and tag the offender with 6 citations, 5 of which have absolutely no merit). For example - last fall I was watching some goose hunters in a field next to our hunting field. There were 3 of them and we watched them shoot 13 geese (limit=4 each). We were kind of ****** because they were sky-busting, so we called the police - state cop comes and cites all 3 guys with exceeding the bag limit. Now, only one of them could have been in excess of the bag limit! I've got 3 or 4 more stories just like this one. I should say that I'm a strong supporter of law enforcement. I'm a former prosecutor who has prosecuted game violations and several of my best fishing buddies are police officers. I've just seen a lot of bad citations issued by game cops and I think the bad would just get worse if they start training "deputies". DK is right - this is a huge liability problem for the state if these individuals aren't properly trained. The law firm I work for now defends several Oregon municipalities in civil rights cases. The way I see it, the state is having a hard enough time training the game officers they have now with the resources available to them. Our best defense against illegal activity is to keep the local game officer's phone # stored in your cel phone, take notes, pictures, etc. My good friend came across an illegal antelope kill 3 years ago in Beatty's Butte unit. He had waited 8 years to draw a tag and came across a guy gutting a nice buck who didn't have a tag. The guy was dumb enough to admit he didn't have a tag - he bragged that he's done this for years and never been cought. My friend just went along with him and said - "damn, that's the nicest buck I've seen in a long time - I'll take your picture and send it to you." He got the guy's picture, name and address and cc'd the guy with a copy of the picture he sent to the DA's office. Slam dunk! I hope I'm wrong about this - I'd love to see a successful program work - I'm just terribly pessimistic based on my experience with Game officers.

[THE REEL HEY_YALL]

Killer - I respect your opinion, however I cannot whole-heartedly agree with it as I've worked in law enforcement. We are looking for the deterrent factor, regardless if charges stick. I like the idea of a one man operates a camera, and the other with a cell phone/walkie-talkie and log book. I can't say that some organization should take this up as a campaign like the NW Steelheaders as I know a lot of people who disagree with them. I think ALL the fishing organizations should feel it as a call to arms. Hell make it like a neighborhood watch program. Thanks for all the input! Although, I can't believe this hasn't received more input from the other members. I guess the sponges must be full. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[Killertraylor]

I like the deterrent idea too - I guess the main thing I'm scared of is some 16 year old fish-cop wanna be with an attitude. I'd strongly caution any of these "volunteers" to avoid confrontation, or even conversation for that matter. Cops and lawyers have a hard enough time with concepts like "Reasonable Suspicion" and "Probable Cause" The last thing we need is some deputy out there that abuses the limited discretion they would be granted. If it can be done my minimizing the possibility of in the field verbal contact, then I'm all for it! I'd hate to see some deputy get hurt or see a legitimate game violation case kicked out of court because the poorly trained deputy didn't have probable cause to search or reasonable suspicion to investigate.

Killer, you are a lawyer, so I understand your cynism. But if you read some of the suggested scenarios again you will see that it's a visual deterent factor as Mike mentioned, and a camera and cell phone procedure suggested. Not an in their face physical confrontation - which I agree with you wouldn't work out well at all. It doesn't take much training to be an insignia cap wearing citizen watchdog observer, filmer, and cell phone caller. I think that's all it would take to remove a major portion of what's going on. My $0.02 worth opinion.

RT

[Bait O' Eggs]

HeyYall - being hall monitor in grade school probably doesnt qualify as law enforcement. [img]images/icons/shocked.gif[/img] [img]images/icons/shocked.gif[/img]

I have to agree with Killer on this one. The state has a volunteer system to deal with individuals reporting violations. In Oregon it is the TIP program. They even pay rewards for certain prosecutions. Just call the number and make a report. I think the officer if in the area will be there shortly. If they are busy and cannot get there before the perp is gone, well they got away with one. Confrontation with individuals that perform game violations are not usually a good thing. They pack guns [img]images/icons/shocked.gif[/img] [img]images/icons/shocked.gif[/img] and usually know how to use them.

Creating a minimum trained posse to scour the areas filled with poachers and snaggers will lead to ugly confrontation.

I dont agree with the states method of turning there head when the trash stacks up at eagle creek and the wind. They should be hitting these areas hard, sending out a strong statement about the law. Why bust a lone guy on a remote spot for what 100's of people get away with in the bad areas. Not enough game officers, and not enough time for the ones they have.

If you are gonna bust a guy for foul hooking a fish on the outside of the mouth on the Kilchis River and keeping it, you ought to really bust the guys who bring them in tail first on Eagle Creek. Consistency is the key.

[DK]

why is it the police can use tapes to hunt down wto and fat tuesday rioters, but won't take the time to look at tapes fellow fishermen have taken along with license plate #'s . thy didn't heastate paying those people a visit and citing them. i realize snagging a salmon isn't indangering someones life or what the police think a big threat but h@ll,a poaching ticket is a lot stiffer than most everyday traffic offences i think the revenue jenerated would be worth spending a little more time at the river

[hustlerrjim]

the last guy that tried a stunt like this called his group the hitler youth.
the last thing we need is to become a police state like this guy did in 39

[Joe Schwab]

Hey Killertraylor, I can't let this one go by without a reply. As a retired game cop, I spent a good part of my career trying to "educate" young prosecutors about game laws. They just didn't get it and some would rather dismiss the cases than prosecute because they felt they couldn't win. Many prosecutors looked down their noses at game cases and consequently at the officers who wrote them. Granted there are bad cases and bad cops just as there are lousy lawyers and inept prosecutors. (Does OJ ring a bell?) I had one prosecutor who could not understand the difference between fishing and angling. Look it up. I would not be so quick to criticize unless I had strapped on the iron and pinned on the badge. One well known Indian attorney once accused me of lying in court in front of a large group of people. He had seldom won a case written by me or any of my officers. I replied " I don't have to lie to beat you, you're too easy". I suggested to his clients they get a better lawyer or start conforming to the law. I have a lot of respect for lawyers and police especially when I need either one.

[Trick]

I'm on the fence on this one. I think we need more people monitoring the **** indus...I mean...dang it Osprey....lets start over. [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

The problem is out of control and I'd like to see more cell phones and cameras being used to document crimes first. I worry about safety when your in these bad areas and it's a 50 to one show. Excuse yourself to a bathroom break and make the TIP call. I think we should try to fully utilize the system that is in place before we move on to another experiment. I used the TIP line once to have some out of season goose poachers arrested and it worked. I haven't tried it since. I'm commited to carrying my cell this year fishing and will be calling more on poachers and I'll post the results this fall if I can find time to fish.

Glad you brought it up Hey Yall, this is a thorn in most everyones side.

[boater]

[ 06-02-2001: Message edited by: boater ]

[THE REEL HEY_YALL]

From what I've heard Jim, I can see why you would be against this. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif[/img]

Thanks to all who contributed. Remember, a memo pad with pen, cell phone, and a camera can greatly reduce the impact done by those who feel they are above the law. I've heard stories of a few outlaws who think keeping a snagged fish is cool [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[boater]

maybe RT can dress up like clint eastwood and come riding to the river on a horse and just blast all the snaggers
[img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[ 06-07-2001: Message edited by: boater ]

[MetalHead]

Ok guys, in Washington there is a program called "eyes in the woods". If you have a group they will come to your meeting area and put on a training program for collecting evidence for your enforcement officer. It is non confrontational and has had some success in bringing violators to court. You do not carry any identification and when done correctly the persons you are gathering evidence on never know you are there.

In most instances confrontations with fish and game violators "poachers / snaggers" can be hazardous to your health. Why do you think fisheries enforcement officers began carrying weapons in the late 70's.

I believe you would be much more successful if your target didnt even know you existed than if you wore identifying clothing although that does sometimes slow them down.