Propane or Electric??

[sandman]

I'm building a new house soon and would like to know if anybody has any pro's and cons for propane appliances or Electric appliances.I can't get NW natural gas,so that not an option.Please help

[Musicman]

I was in the same boat as you and we went with Propane stove, electric oven and a propane fireplace....both are very nice during power outages cause we can still cook and have heat. Electric everything else though...if I had to do it over again...propane everything. I'm not sure of them monthly costs but I do know that electricity isn't cheap.
Also, I like to cook on gas.

[huntercgr]

For sure I would get a propane stove/oven, water heater, or perhaps a water heater on demand system depending on your household.

For heating/cooling I'd go for an electric heat pump system.

[Tony1831]

I agree with these guys, propane (or LP) would be a good way to go for cooking and heating, but can be expensive if you aren't energy efficient( i.e. kids leave doors and windows open, high volume of door opening/closing, your home faces into a naturally cold breezeway, or is elevated above ground- think cabin with a walkout lower level).

Also, something that often gets overlooked is the fact cooking with gas can create a dirtier kitchen. Don't know how or why, but it seems to happen.

Lastly, if you go with gas- plan on teaching the family how to use it and light it in your absence. You will need to familiarize yourself with to feel comfortable and then show them to not fear it. Honestly, that's what creates the most amount of service calls to heating and cooling companies- someone afraid of trying to light the pilot and /or can't.

fogot...also invest in fire extinguishers and keep them handy and charged, along with flashlights and batteries

[roadsend]

Originally Posted by huntercgr

For sure I would get a propane stove/oven, water heater, or perhaps a water heater on demand system depending on your household.

For heating/cooling I'd go for an electric heat pump system.

A lot of gas ranges are sold with electric ovens, which in my opinion is a mistake. Electric heat creates a dry hot oven, wheras gas create water vapor and CO2 as products of combustion. There is nothing like cooking with gas. Ask anyone who has cooked on both gas and electric.

[Hellibut]

I just finished my new home, (well except the fun stuff my wife still wants done) but let me say; if it's one thing my wife absolutely loves and I'm almost tired of hearing is, "I LOVE my gas cooktop"! I would definately go with the gas cooktop. As for the other stuff I went with a gas fireplace insert but if you do don't look for it to provide but very little heat. As for the Hot Water heater you really need to look at demand. They definately heat up quicker. The other thing is propane, are you planning to have the 500gal tank and having it filled. If you have it filled, propane is quite a bit higher than when you take your barbecue tank in. I went with the two 100lb tanks and filled them but once all winter. It's a bit of a pain but something I can handle twice a year. The position of the tank (if having it filled) must be so that the person filling the tank can see it from the truck while they are filling it. Just a comment on one of the other posts. Just about everything out there now has an electronic ignitor meaning, no power, no ignitor. This doesn't mean you can't light the cooktop for example with a match but it does mean stuff doesn't simply work when the power goes out. We found this out during the wind storm. Good luck with your new home.

[Tony1831]

Hellibut,

What fireplace insert did you select?

I have done that type of work for a bit and can say some are better than others, but if you are dissatisfied, check into returning it to the company you bought it from and upgrade to a larger BTU model. There are some fantatsic products available if you look in the right places.

[7pointbull]

I would go with electric. Propane prices will soar soon and stay that way for some time. Unless you will have the option on Nat gas in the next year.

[sandman]

I am worried propane prices will be outragous,What kicks out more BTU'S?

[Chrome Bumper]

Propane is thermally more efficient than electric, so therefore tends to be less expensive. Our house is all natural gas except for the electric convection type oven. Electirc ovens have more even heat. We have a furnace, but we use the woodstove for heat 90% of the time.

[7pointbull]

http://www.eere.energy.gov/afdc/altf...roperties.html

[flapbreaker]

Maybe I'm in the minority on this but I had the chance to use a gas viking range. I thought it was going to be awesome. I didn't realize how much heat goes up around the pans while cooking. Kept burning my arm. I'd rather use electric. oh well, can't please everybody.

[roadsend]

Originally Posted by sandman

I am worried propane prices will be outragous,What kicks out more BTU'S?

I am concerned about energy prices in general.
7pointbull (I believe correctly) pointed out that propane prices are likely to rise.
My electric bill just jumped 13% due to a court ruling and could go up alot more if congress gets a hold of the NW power issue.
As one energy commodity price goes up, the price of the others seem to follow. Figuring the prices down the road a year or two is like betting on the horses.
I am making my energy decisions on what I like and what is convenient. I can't predict or control the prices which seem to be at the whim and mercy of politicians, profiteers, speculators, traders, foreign governments, weather, and global warming zealots. (have I left anybody out?):frown:

[Tony1831]

Originally Posted by sandman

I am worried propane prices will be outragous,What kicks out more BTU'S?

Kicks out more BTU's than what?

All appliances are rated by BTU input, and have an efficiency rating which will give you an approximate BTU output. BTU input X efficiency = BTU output more/less. It's a bit more complex , but this is close enough to get a feel for it.

[Chrome Bumper]

One kilowatt-hour is 3413 btus, so a standard 75,000 btu/per hour gas or propane appliance is kicking out 22,000 watts, or at 85% burner efficiency 80 amps of 240v single phase. You'd need 3 phase service and a very much bigger tank to get the same performance a simple gas water heater can give you. Same with cook tops and furnaces.

Gas appliances kick out more BTUs. So faster house heating, faster boiled water on the stove, faster hot water heating.

With propane one limiting factor is how fast the propane will vaporize in the tank. Talk with the propane company about this. As you let gas out the tank, the tank chills, if the weather is cold and your usage high the tank can get cold enough that the LP will not want to vaporize. This is due to the latent heat of vaporization, same effect in areasol cans that get cold as you use them, the basic priciple of refrigeration and A/C also.

It might not be a problem on a residential scale but for bigger users (and the cold weather propane BBQer) this can be a problem.

Some people haul their tank to get gas so they don't have to pay delivered prices.

http://www.npga.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=914

2007 Representative Energy Costs
.Energy SourceCost in common unit of measureCost per million Btu
Electricity10.65 cents / KWh (kilowatt hour) $31.21
Natural Gas $12.53 / MCF (1,000 cubic ft.) $ $12.18
No. 2 heating oil$2.22 / gallon 16.01
Propane$1.87 / gallon 20.47
Kerosene$2.63 / gallon 19.48

[7pointbull]

A gas stove cannot boil water faster than an electric stove.

I cook all the time with both and the electric heats hotter and faster.

An electric oven for baking is a requirement as gas provides uneven heat.

For sauteeing, frying etc gas is easier to control the temp on a stovetop.

Deep frying Electric is superior to gas.

[Chrome Bumper]

You have a built in deepfat fryer at your house?!

[7pointbull]

Yes. I pretty much have a commercial kitchen set up in my home.

[roadsend]

Originally Posted by 7pointbull

A gas stove cannot boil water faster than an electric stove.

I cook all the time with both and the electric heats hotter and faster.

An electric oven for baking is a requirement as gas provides uneven heat.

.......

I don't know what kind of gas stove you have, but when I turn my gas burner on, I have instant heat.
My gas oven does a great job of baking.

[Chrome Bumper]

If the electric burner is already hot it can get a jump start on heating water. Still, you can deliver more BTUs down a pipe than you can a wire.

My wife is the head chef in my house and she demanded an electric oven, and a gas cook top. Well not really demanded, but you know what I mean.

[sandman]

Thanks all for the help.


PS,A gas stove is instant hot,Electric takes a while to get hot

[Joe Schwab]

Several years ago we installed a free standing vent free gas fireplace rated at 45,000 BTU. There is no heat loss to the outside as there is no vent. There is no odor and it shuts off if oxygen levels lower. Have never had that happen. We never use the furnace anymore and our total gas bill is 10-20% lower. If we had a bigger house I would not hesitate to put several of these in. It is manual start so I don't care if the power goes out. Sure beats hauling wood.

They are available in gas or propane.

[Tony1831]

For those using vent free gas appliances like Capt Hook,

PLEASE only use vent free for a few hours/day with good ventilation and adequate oxygen supply to the home.

Although these have been determined safe by the industry, my thoughts are it is a lung vented appliance. Also, make sure you have NO SOOT build-up in a vent free fireplace as soot is an indicator of incomplete combustion = carbon monoxide.

[12244]

Arent you on an electric coop like Canby? Great elec. rates, combined with better technology in the newer electric appl.

[Joe Schwab]

Originally Posted by Tony1831

For those using vent free gas appliances like Capt Hook,

PLEASE only use vent free for a few hours/day with good ventilation and adequate oxygen supply to the home.

Although these have been determined safe by the industry, my thoughts are it is a lung vented appliance. Also, make sure you have NO SOOT build-up in a vent free fireplace as soot is an indicator of incomplete combustion = carbon monoxide.

Where do you get your information? Just curious. We have been using it for several years and I'm well aware of carbon monoxide effects. None more so than using a gas range do you think? Or wood stoves.

[Tony1831]

A former career path that was dead end was where I acquired the knowledge. Several years of running and managing an AGA certified gas and wood fireplace shop is where my 'sperience is from. My certs are prolly expired now, but the knowledge and technology in vent free hasn't changed.

What brand of VF fp do you have?

[Tony1831]

One more con about vent free gas stoves and firepalaces is the quantity of wator vapors produced which is dispersed into the air and all other fibers in your home- i.e. carpet, drapes, upholstery, clothes, furniture. Definitely worth keeping in mind as the wator vapor has to go somewhere in your home... mold is hard to get rid of if it's trapped into the walls and ceilings...

Lastly, if you use a vent free fireplace, you are competing for the available oxygen in your home. The suggestion of using multiple vent free appliances in a home of today's construction practices might be lethal in a cold winter if the competing fireplaces consume all the available oxygen.

[Chrome Bumper]

If your home isn't brand new it should leak enough air to maintain O2. There is room for concern, a 45,000 btu appliance would be like a big gas cooktop with all the burners going full blast all night long.

The unvented fireplaces shut off when O2 levels fall, and before CO is generated. Some watervapor in the house can be a good thing as the relative humidity can plummet indoors in the winter. My older kid has chronich nose bleeds in the winter due to low RH.


A 45,000 btu appliance would introduce about 5 lb of water vapor per hour into the space at full blast.

Woodstoves are vented to the outside, so ideally they will leave no exhaust product indoors.

Carbon Monoxide detectors are available if you are interested. Forced air furnaces with a leaking heat exchanger is a common source for CO posioning.

I have a smaller nat gas unvented fireplace we will put downstairs once I get around to it.

[Tony1831]

Originally Posted by Capt. Hook

Where do you get your information? Just curious. We have been using it for several years and I'm well aware of carbon monoxide effects. None more so than using a gas range do you think? Or wood stoves.

This is for everyone's benefit- carbon monoxide can be created regardless of the fuel type (wood, propane, or natural gas). The key to to producing carbon monoxide is incomplete combustion.

Yes, I think it's possible to increase the carbon monoxide level indoors if using a vent free fireplace, particularly if it's the kind known as gas logs. Moveable ceramic logs that are usually pinned into place, but sometimes corrosion and port blockage creates sooting, creating a problem for the people breathing indoor air.

It's pretty much accepted practice to avoid selling vent free products to homes where the residents already have breathing difficulties.

[Tony1831]

Originally Posted by Chrome Bumper

The unvented fireplaces shut off when O2 levels fall, and before CO is generated.

Shutoff levels are only at 5-8% if the Oxygen Depletion Sensor is working properly, and sometimes they don't.

Carbon monoxide can still be being produced no matter the oxygen content if the flame is being impinged by any surface.

Otherwise, I agree with the rest of your post.

[Chrome Bumper]

Originally Posted by Tony1831

Shutoff levels are only at 5-8% if the Oxygen Depletion Sensor is working properly, and sometimes they don't.

Carbon monoxide can still be being produced no matter the oxygen content if the flame is being impinged by any surface.

Otherwise, I agree with the rest of your post.

I don't know who is right but this is from the sales folks for vent free appliances.

All products which burn gas and draw combustion air from the living space "take oxygen" from that space, (Gas ranges are vent-free units). The owners manuals on our products and your local code official will inform and instruct about the need for make up combustion air.
Vent-free heaters have an ODS or Oxygen Depletion Sensor which automatically shuts off the gas supply in the rare event that the oxygen level in the room falls to 18% This is above unsafe levels as established by ANSI (American National Standards Institute).

Many appliances have flames impinging on surfaces and have very low CO generation.

[Joe Schwab]

The stove we have is Manufactured by Vermont Castings. It is high quality and no we do not use it while sleeping. We don't even use the furnace after we go to bed unless it is extremely cold. The stove does a great job of heating the living area and the retention of the heat lasts well into the night. My wife and I both have always enjoyed open windows and this is a great compromise to heat loss. I still would argue that wood stoves are more dangerous than these. We have service regularly and the gas rep sees no problem. I will admit I was skeptical at first until we used it. As far as the moisture we have seen nothing of the sort. When we lived in Alaska we RVd in the winter and I can tell you about moisture from propane heaters and these were vented. We have double pane windows and heavy insulation throughout. I've never seen a fogged window.

Precautions must be taken with most any kind of appliance. I grew up in a 100% natural gas home, dryer, refer, hot water, kitchen stove and furnace. I remember people who gasped at the thought of gas. They just knew we were going to die in an explosion.

[weekender]

I just dove in and didnt want to read all the threads, but if you look at high end appliances you'll notice most stoves are "dual fuel" meaning gas burners and electric ovens. There's a good reason for this as electic is easier to control the temp on. I'd stick with gas cooktop and electric oven personally.

[Tony1831]

Vermont Castings is a good brand and they have good service and field reps IMO. Just watch for the white film that will develop inside the glass, keep it cleaned off or else your glass will pit, and eventually break. (Not covered by warranty :frown

Originally Posted by Capt. Hook

The stove we have is Manufactured by Vermont Castings. It is high quality and no we do not use it while sleeping. We don't even use the furnace after we go to bed unless it is extremely cold. The stove does a great job of heating the living area and the retention of the heat lasts well into the night. My wife and I both have always enjoyed open windows and this is a great compromise to heat loss. I still would argue that wood stoves are more dangerous than these. We have service regularly and the gas rep sees no problem. I will admit I was skeptical at first until we used it. As far as the moisture we have seen nothing of the sort. When we lived in Alaska we RVd in the winter and I can tell you about moisture from propane heaters and these were vented. We have double pane windows and heavy insulation throughout. I've never seen a fogged window.

Precautions must be taken with most any kind of appliance. I grew up in a 100% natural gas home, dryer, refer, hot water, kitchen stove and furnace. I remember people who gasped at the thought of gas. They just knew we were going to die in an explosion.

[Joe Schwab]

Originally Posted by Tony1831

Vermont Castings is a good brand and they have good service and field reps IMO. Just watch for the white film that will develop inside the glass, keep it cleaned off or else your glass will pit, and eventually break. (Not covered by warranty :frown

Unvented stoves do not have glass fronts.

[Tony1831]

Originally Posted by Chrome Bumper

I don't know who is right but this is from the sales folks for vent free appliances.

Come on now, these people are selling to you, I'm just discussing the potential issues (for free).

Of course that's what the product literature says is the shutoff level, but I can tell you from experiments conducted numerous times, the level often is lower than what the 'standard' is. Sometimes due to part failure, sometimes due to debris like dust and pet hair clogging the sensor (ODS).

May never happen to you, but it's worth discussing and then making an informed decision if you are trying to decide gas vs electric.


Many appliances have flames impinging on surfaces and have very low CO generation.

The key difference being the flames in most of these are glancing into the "log" from the lower portion of the flame where it tends to be blue, thus hotter, and complete combustion occurs = no carbon monoxide :smile: .

Flame impingement is more likely to occur when the top of the flame(usually yellow and much cooler) strikes the bottom of the "log" and incomplete combustion occurs = carbon monoxide.

[Tony1831]

Originally Posted by Capt. Hook

Unvented stoves do not have glass fronts.

maybe your model doesn't, but they do make them

[roadsend]

I put a gas (propane) stove in my new addition last year and went with a stove vented with a double pipe. The outside portion is the air intake and the incoming air is prewarmed by the outflow in the inner portion of the pipe. Very little heat loss at the vent outside and no combustion products can get into the house.
I don't know diddly squat, but there is something about an unvented gas stove running while I am sleeping on a cold night which bothers me.

[Tony1831]

You have a direct vent system (DV). That's the way to go

[negoc8]

We have had both propane and electric cook tops. I do a lot of cooking and I have to say, I really like our Dacor propane cook top. When my wife brought it home, I about fainted at the price, but it has been very easy to cook with, and a breeze to clean. If you do decide to go with a gas cook top, just try and find one with as few removable parts as possible, this will make the clean up much easier. We had a less expensive cook top in our last place, it had no fewer than 4 pieces per burner that needed cleaning all the time. It was a pain. We supply the cook top with an 18 gal? I think, propane bottle, it's about 3 feet tall, we fill it twice a year and we cook alllll the time.