paid predator hunters

[baltz526]

borrowed this from another thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthewc
I am against ODFW being alowed to pay [from your license fees]"specail hunters" to get paid to do what voters decided was wrong. I am for bait but we will not get that back..do not believe that bye allowing this that we are somehow one step closer to getting it back. Its not true..It is said that we must hunt fair chase but the same non hunters that said no dogs no bait are now crying because numbers have grown and calling for ODFW to do something about it. I say to bad, we hunt fair chase because thats what they wanted and im not supporting some special agency to clean it up. IM not supporting the making fair chase laws harder to deal with because thats what more effective agency hunters will cause. They will thin out the already hard to find night prowling animals. Let the voters deal with their choice and let us deal with the challenge of fair chase. thats what im saying. IM all for fair chase but not fair chase in an area that got cleaned out by paid dog runners to cover the stench of bad regulations caused by non hunting voters...NO ODFW must continue to allow us [hunters] to be the primary tool for predation control or we loose hunting to the voters again, for what they already voted against...NO Bring on the bacon...!! The spirit of the wild belongs to those of us who call it a way of life. The hunting life If you can not already tell this is important to me. I have many personal challenges in the woods I have yet to accomplish. Bear numbers ARE up and our bear hunting opps are better then ever but it is still very hard on the west side with a bow. It is already like hunting Unicorns

you make a very good point. i did not buy my first bear tag until bear hunting with dogs and bait was outlawed. one thing i think your missing about the new hired hunter program, is that these killers of our bears and cougars will be doing all their work in or near populated areas or ranching areas. these political predator killers will be directed into areas where there are complaints, whos complaints do you think they will be directed to address, hunters complaints about cougar kills on critical winter range herds, or kittys being eaten and bird feeders raided on the edge of the suburbs. hunter dollars spent protecting wintering herds is good, hunter dollars spent protecting urban growth is insane

[baltz526]

if a county needs predator relief, this county should be billed by odfw for the service. if a city need this service, they should pay. if a rancher is in need let them pay, or let the urban voters pay. hunters will do it for free, so we should not have our hunting dollars spent on this type of program

[roadsend]

The general public passed the laws banning more effective methods of bear and cougar hunting. Let the general public pay the cost of their vote with the general fund.
Use license fees for conservation and game enhancement only.
Why should state employees be allowed to hunt with methods forbidden to the public?

[rimrock]

Is this program paid via a special surcharge on hunting licenses or from the general fund?

[Limbhanger]

Originally Posted by roadsend

Why should state employees be allowed to hunt with methods forbidden to the public?

It isn't hunting, it is strictly removal of problem animals.

If HB 2791 makes it through, then they will be able to use volunteer agents to do these things saving all kinds of money.

There was a thread on this a few weeks ago.

[HOGGEMIN]

The ODFW has been using Federal Trappers to keep the populations down foe years. They can use any method and get paid by the amimal. wether femail or male young or old.

[roadsend]

Originally Posted by HOGGEMIN

The ODFW has been using Federal Trappers to keep the populations down foe years. They can use any method and get paid by the amimal. wether femail or male young or old.

Where does the money come from to pay them, ODFW or the general fund?

[CombinationLicense]

OK, I’ll take a stab at explaining this jumbled up mess! There are lots of variables in this question but this is my understanding. It might not be absolutely 100% correct but I think it’s close -

The first thing is to understand the difference between Predatory Animals and Game Animals. Predatory Animals (coyotes, rabbits and rodents which are or may be destructive to agricultural crops, products and activities) are managed under a completely different set of rules than Game Animals and Furbearers. Predatory Animals fall under the domain of the Department of Agriculture, while Game Animals and Furbearers are within ODFW’s jurisdiction. However, a Landowner may “control” any animal for the purpose of addressing “Damage” complaints or a human safety issue (except wolves apparently).

So, the funding source depends on the species being controlled, the person or agency making the complaint, the type of complaint and where the “control” activity is being done.

For Predatory Animals, Wildlife Services contracts with counties directly to establish a partnership where the USDA provides a "County Trapper" or "Control Officer" that is co-funded by both entities. Landowners then can call the county AG office to report damage complaints and have someone dispatched to address the issue. Traps, snares, hounds, and other methods may be used because the county designee is operating as an "Agent" of the landowner and is addressing a "Damage" complaint. Likewise, the County can dispatch the officer to address public safety concerns, etc…

The ODFW has two separate contracts with Wildlife Services, one for Predatory Animals and one for Black Bear, Cougars and Furbearers. The ODFW's use of Wildlife Services is similar to the counties as the contract specifies that Wildlife Services personnel are acting as the "Agents" of ODFW and as such they may “Control” Predatory Animals and Game Animals. That also means that Wildlife Services personnel are exempt from the provisions of Measure 18 and can use dogs and/or bait to complete the “control” activities. That is because “Control” or “Management” is not “Sport Hunting”.

Clear as mud, right? Well, basically anytime that Wildlife Services is used OTHER than when in conjunction with a county for Predatory Animal control the ODFW is involved. ODFW pays the bill and hunter dollars are used. However, the ODFW gets some or all of the money used for Predatory Animal control refunded by the US Department of Agriculture - if they use Wildlife Services (Federal Agency) for the job.

I hope that helps to clarify the issue. Now, if we can just get HB 2971 passed out of the House on Monday the ODFW will be able to use private individuals (Houndsmen) as their “Agents” for cougar management again. That alone will reduce the use of “Hunter Dollars” being given to Wildlife Services significantly.

FYI, Wildlife Services isn't even involved yet and the Oregon Cougar plan’s implementation has already cost over $100,000 and less than 30 cats have been killed in two of the three “Target Areas”. That’s a local Bio’s annual salary + benefits + some left over and we’re just getting started!



“CL”

[Matthewc]

THE REASON I FIRST POSTED THIS WAS

ODFW claims to be looking for "hunters" support for this law to be passed.

Thanks for carrying this over to here. I deleted my post on the other thread, Beamers thread so I did not high jack his awsome thread. Some turkey pointed it out to me and he was likely correct. Either way its a controlled job and it does INFACT take away from fair chase hunters....Dollars or no dollars..This is the result of arm chair city voters that saw a commercial about guys with dogs treeing a cougar and then shooting it and watching it fall hitting limbs on the way down...did you see it? That method of hunting, Its ban now, and several others as well. I guess this would look somthing like a cougar tearing apart a [use your imagination] ???...I will not support a special group to go and do it now...If the voters want nature in their backyards then they should deal with the chain reactions of their voting...That is nature. They wanted fair chase they got it, now they do not like the result? Confusing

It is already legal to bait or use dogs on private land for problem animals with a permit.

Omg I/you saw a cougar or a bear in your backyard! Where is he at, where do you live? I will take him on my tag fair chase..Let me on your land for 3 days and I will kill him with a license and tag I paid for to support the hunt and management thereof.
or
Call a hunter you know and together apply for the problem animal permits, lay out some bait and take him out, The hunter will be greatful and post a thread like Beamerfish's great thread..AND he will share healthy wild game dinners with you. Its called community.

Originally Posted by Limbhanger

It isn't hunting, it is strictly removal of problem animals.

If HB 2791 makes it through, then they will be able to use volunteer agents to do these things saving all kinds of money.
.

Your right again, it is not hunting. It is realy a big slap in the face to hunters that had their ability to hunt more effectivly and be used as a tool for big game AND predator management taken away by non hunting voters that saw the commercial 10 years ago and now call it a job [removal of problem animals]?

Perhaps we could create a commercial of a cougar tearing apart a newborn fawn and air it just after friday nights soccer practice throughout Portland metro area? I will shoot the film myself..can you get it on tv? lol

Please I do not mean all of this to be hostile so please do not reply hostile, I just wish to retain the right to the best possible modern fair chase hunting methods and be somewhat effective

[mtn300]

If it helps the elk and deer population have at it. It is the only way to reduce predator population such as cougar. If the predator population is not regulated it is you an I who pay the price. Less tags less opportunity. If you want to charge someone charge the counties who had the most votes against hounds and baiting because those votes didn't come from this side of the state.

[Limbhanger]

The problem is, we will be waiting for ever for the voter to see that there is something "wrong". This would imply that they would know when something is "right". They dont and never will. Most of the voting block that voted for Measure 18 does not spend 10 minutes in the woods on an annual basis and deer and elk could be extinct for all they know.
We cannot sit around and wait for them to wake up.........there are a lot of hunters that need to wake up if the truth be told. We need to be pro-active and take the lead on all of the issues that affect hunting and wildlife because no one else really knows the issues any better or contributes to wildlife and habitat like we do. Even if a cat does eat little Jonny someday, nothing will change where Measure 18 is concerned.
ONLY a winning ballot initiative will change it........until then, we need management now.......Support HB 2791.

[CombinationLicense]

The problem is that in the "Big Picture", not controlling predation is killing big game hunting in Oregon. More then a decade of "we don't want to pay for it" strategy has left us with decimated and weak herds, reduced tag numbers and hunters leaving the sport in droves. With no predation management the Anti's have obtained EXACTLY what they wanted from the passage of Measure 18. Now hunters fighting about weather or not to control the predator population, who does it and who pays just extends their victory.

GET OVER IT - The ODFW's Elk Predation and Nutrition study found that in elk mortality 73% was due to Cougars, 12% due to Black Bears and 4% of the loss was due to Coyotes. The scientific fact is that 89% of elk mortality is due to PREDATION.

'Nuff said, our big game herds need some relief from predation unless we want to continue the downward spiral of sport hunting in Oregon.

"CL"

[ehunter]

Well said Limbhanger.


Let me add this if the Timber companies where not allowed to use dogs and snares the keep the bear population down, they would be helping to fund these changes as well.

[rimrock]

Originally Posted by Limbhanger

........until then, we need management now.......Support HB 2791.

Yep!

[CombinationLicense]

See new thread "HB 2971 House Vote Monday

[baltz526]

i would support hb 2791 if it protected big game herds. show us how it protects big game herds with my tax dollars and i'll be happy to support it

[Matthewc]

Originally Posted by ehunter

Let me add this if the Timber companies where not allowed to use dogs and snares the keep the bear population down, they would be helping to fund these changes as well.

Your right and they are very effctive in keeping west side numbers lower.

They big scream for elk and deer is THE EASTERN oregon side, but remember they [east/west] will be lumped together like everything else is these days.

Poaching is a bigger problem then predation on the west side.

IM very awake and I would only support such actions for east side wintering herds but for the west side IDK

[CombinationLicense]

Sorry - double posted!

[CombinationLicense]

Good Question Baltz but I have an answer. The "Short" version is this:

The Oregon Cougar Plan calls for a reduction in the number of cougars in three target areas. These target areas have been identified as locations where predation has severely impacted big game populations. Reducing the numbar of predators in these areas will impact the big game herds in a positive way. The cougar reduction has already started in two of the three areas (Heppner area and Jackson county) and has cost over $100K using ODFW employees to "take" less than 30 cats. The cost will go up when Wildlife Services & ODFW employees are doing the "management" activities. HB 2971 simply gives ODFW the ability to use voluntary houndsmen for this purpose and will save the Department money by reducing the number of billable hours by ODFW and Wildlife Services personnel. That money then can be used for other ODFW needs like Salaries, programs, etc...

Benefit - Reduced cost to implement the Oregon Cougar Plan = Fewer hunter dollars needed to reduce predation on big game herds = more money for "On the ground" ODFW work.

"CL"

[Limbhanger]

Originally Posted by baltz526

i would support hb 2791 if it protected big game herds. show us how it protects big game herds with my tax dollars and i'll be happy to support it

I think the difference between having 2791 pass or not is strictly about using volunteer or continuing to pay for wildlife services.
If it doesnt pass, the problem animals will still be removed......at a substantial cost.
If it does pass, the problem animals will be removed at a substantial savings. Sure, there will still be admin costs and such, but the money that would be used to pay the agents will be saved and available for other areas or programs.

[Matthewc]

what are "projected west side plans? if any?

And how will these volunteers be chosen? Controlled hunt lottery? Just wondering

[Limbhanger]

I do know that there are west side target areas......I do not know exactly where they are or the boundaries that they have set up.

[Matthewc]

Any idea how volunteers will be chosen? Controlled lottery hunt?

Will be interesting to see how animal groups react to this if it pass's....

[Matthewc]

Ohh and I volunteer to run baits for bears lol so I can stick one with my Bowtech

[Limbhanger]

Originally Posted by Matthewc

Any idea how volunteers will be chosen? Controlled lottery hunt?

Will be interesting to see how animal groups react to this if it pass's....

The animal rights groups are already reacting, but they dont have a sound arguement. It is hard to argue with SAVING money in government. They tried to spin it as infringing on Measure 18, but that was thin soup and everyone saw right through it because it has nothing to do with Measure 18. The hairy unwashed did not bathe for days before the hearing which I think was a ploy to distract and get everyone out of there faster.......but we endured and came out victorious that day......

Volunteers will probably be chosen on experience level, if they own their own dogs etc. They will be agents of the state and the animals taken will be the property of the state and remain in the states possession.

[CombinationLicense]

This might help - You can download the cougar plan from the ODFW web site to read all about the target areas and implementation strategy. Gotta go for now...

"CL"


Cougar Management Plan:

View and download the FINAL Cougar Management Plan

Key facts about cougars in Oregon and the cougar management plan:

Cougars are an Oregon success story. After being nearly eliminated by the mid-1960s, today they have a healthy population. The current cougar population in Oregon is estimated to be 5,100.
As both the cougar and human populations have grown, so have the number of conflicts and damage complaints. This management plan is designed to address the conflicts between the growing numbers of cougars and humans.
This plan establishes a minimum desirable cougar population of at least 3,000. It does not set a targeted cougar population level or a ceiling. The number of cougars in Oregon may exceed 3,000 as they do today, but the draft plan calls for managing no fewer than 3,000 cougars.
ODFW works within the framework of the law. Oregonians have twice said through initiative petition that hounds may not be used to hunt cougars, and the Legislature and Governor have agreed with that stance. This plan abides by that determination.
However, existing law does allow federal and state employees to use the full range of management tools, including hounds and snares but not including poison, to deal with cougars that are causing human, pet or livestock conflicts. ODFW will continue to respond to safety and damage complaints. Problem cougars that pose a risk to humans, pets or livestock will be humanely euthanized.
This plan follows the same prescription as other management plans by incorporating specific actions to deal with conflict while maintaining recreational – hunting and viewing – opportunities.
As is the case with all similar wildlife management plans, the costs of cougar management are funded by the sales of hunting licenses and tags.

[mtn300]

Originally Posted by Limbhanger

The problem is, we will be waiting for ever for the voter to see that there is something "wrong". This would imply that they would know when something is "right". They dont and never will. Most of the voting block that voted for Measure 18 does not spend 10 minutes in the woods on an annual basis and deer and elk could be extinct for all they know.
We cannot sit around and wait for them to wake up.........there are a lot of hunters that need to wake up if the truth be told. We need to be pro-active and take the lead on all of the issues that affect hunting and wildlife because no one else really knows the issues any better or contributes to wildlife and habitat like we do. Even if a cat does eat little Jonny someday, nothing will change where Measure 18 is concerned.
ONLY a winning ballot initiative will change it........until then, we need management now.......Support HB 2791.

:lurk:

[CombinationLicense]

C'mon over

[Matthewc]

Call me so we do not waste anymore ifish bandwidth

By the way I read the cougar plan, update version thanks


looks at cell phone, hmm....*sighs*



realy stop typing and just call me up, im friendly realy. I will not bite like a cougar


OK heading to store, to buy stuff to make spring salmon for dinner...funny that I have to go to the store for things [butter sauce veggies] to kill em and grill em with..Be back later

[baltz526]

200 cougar in oregon would be just about right if you ask me all in multnoma county

[roadsend]

Originally Posted by baltz526

200 cougar in oregon would be just about right if you ask me all in multnoma county

I will drink to that , and I am willing to see any wolves that come into the state to go there also.

[CombinationLicense]

Originally Posted by Matthewc

Call me so we do not waste anymore ifish bandwidth

By the way I read the cougar plan, update version thanks


looks at cell phone, hmm....*sighs*



realy stop typing and just call me up, im friendly realy. I will not bite like a cougar


OK heading to store, to buy stuff to make spring salmon for dinner...funny that I have to go to the store for things [butter sauce veggies] to kill em and grill em with..Be back later

Thanks for bringing the discussion back over to this thread. I’ve been offline to run some errands and get some dinner too, so at least we have something in common. I’m not too interested in a long drawn out conversation this evening though since tomorrow morning I’ve got a date with 50 kids that want to learn some shotgun skills. I’m sure you can relate to gear prep mode….

I would like to address the “fair chase” point briefly. If you read the cougar plan then you know that implementation calls for three target areas where the cougar population will be reduced. The “Administrative Removal” (killing) of cougars is currently underway in two of the three target areas by ODFW employees using both snares and dogs. They are exempt from the restrictions of Measure 18. If you are unhappy about that fact then we need to be debating the cougar plan rather than HB 2971. The cougar plan outlines how and why the ODFW is proceeding with the cougar population reduction as well as restating how damage and human health & safety complaints are handled. The Oregon Fish and Wildlife Commission approved the plan about year ago though, so the Anti’s would surely have sued to stop the implementation by now if it wasn’t legal.

That being said, here’s the point of the whole day’s discussion: All HB 2971 does is allow the ODFW to use Agents of their choosing for cougar management activities. They can then be paid subcontractors like Wildlife Services, volunteer Houndsmen or a mixture of the two plus ODFW employees – which is the most likely scenario. The killing of the cats is already approved and is being conducted now, the only question is how much it’s going to cost in “Hunter Dollars” that could otherwise be used by ODFW for valuable programs and services. That’s it, no hidden agenda or anything.

I hope that clearly explains what I’ve been trying to say all day. Not opposed to talking, just outta time.

“CL”

PS - I enjoyed the post on bobber fishing the other day - nice work! Check my moniker I fish, I hunt (Almost Everything) & I vote

[Matthewc]

That does certainly clearly explain your point..Being that it is already being done and I am not fool enough to not understand that moneys need be focused to other areas of manegement. Thanks for the info, without the insults that another here seems good at. Sometimes it just takes some info to see things clearly. Thanks for that info.

I would still like to know what your affiliation is since everyone but me seems to know. I would still like to hear from you on the phone when you have time to help fill in some more of the blanks, you have my number.

I film hunting as well and I would like to be on top of this crap as you are so help me stay on top please.. thanks. I read ALL that was given to me before I started this and I read ALL that was given to me during this.

Thanks CL please contact me sometime...

[loper]

HB 2971 didn't make it for a vote on the House floor today (the calendar is packed with bills); looks like it will be one of the first bills voted on tomorrow.

[CombinationLicense]

Originally Posted by Matthewc

That does certainly clearly explain your point..Being that it is already being done and I am not fool enough to not understand that moneys need be focused to other areas of manegement. Thanks for the info, without the insults that another here seems good at. Sometimes it just takes some info to see things clearly. Thanks for that info.

I would still like to know what your affiliation is since everyone but me seems to know. I would still like to hear from you on the phone when you have time to help fill in some more of the blanks, you have my number.

I film hunting as well and I would like to be on top of this crap as you are so help me stay on top please.. thanks. I read ALL that was given to me before I started this and I read ALL that was given to me during this.

Thanks CL please contact me sometime...

I’m just a concerned sportsman like you that is trying to raise the level of awareness in the hunting community. I belong to the OHA, NRA and the NSCA and am an Oregon native. I was lucky enough to have been introduced to shooting and the outdoors as a kid and have been enjoying all that Oregon has to offer for 40+ years – fishing, hunting, hiking, white water rafting, and camping. I never was much into clubs but joined the NRA in the early 80’s and OHA in the mid 90’s and am glad I did. At that point in my life I realized that if someone didn’t get involved in the protection of our 2nd Amendment and Sportsman’s rights they would all be gone. The Anti’s are well funded, well coordinated and very, very dedicated to their cause. One voice against an entrenched enemy that has a 20+ year head start doesn’t do much though, so that’s where my involvement in activism and outreach events started. Finally, gun owners and sportsmen are starting to wake up because the agenda to eradicate our lifestyle has become so painfully obvious. There are still some that have the “it can’t happen in America” mentality but it can and has already – and it will only get worse unless WE stop it. IMHO, simply sending our money to the OHA, NRA, RMEF, DU, NWTF, PF, FNAWS or MDF is not good enough anymore. Sportsmen (and gun owners) must get involved and let the outrage be heard if our heritage is to survive the “Attack of the Anti’s”!

Ok, ok…. I’ll get off the soapbox and back to the “regular guy” thing but you probably understand my mentality by now. These issues are important to Oregon’s outdoor community and I try hard to cite facts on these issues so that other IFISHers can be informed and get involved too. I’m sure we’re due for that phone call by now and probably some beers too

"CL"

[Matthewc]

Love to speak with you call anytime you have the number..

The hunting is in my blood too. My grandfather was a gunsmith and hand built riffles with springfield 30/06 bolt actions. He also had a gun and fishing store as I was growing up. I still regularaly shoot a Belg made Browning 308 BLR that came out of his shop for big game.

I to am down with the spirit of the wild.

[loper]

HB 2971 (the "agent" bill) just passed the House; now on to the Senate. :smile: