bullet runout and flyers

[baltz526]

just read a thread on 24hr where a guy could not get partitions to shoot, flyers killing his groups. one post suggested checking the runout. he found it was running between .002 and .010. he shot some groups with the .004 or less runouts and no more flyers. i'm having exactly this problem with a couple rifles and i need to check my die runout

[billc_sbio]

baltz,

You say "Die runout", but I'm thinking you're referring to Bullet Runout (that's what it ends up being that causes the flyers).

I'm also thinking that perfectly concentric dies can allow bullet runout to occur.

Part of this is probably due to the fact that the Seating Die's Nose Punch's contour does not necessarily fit many bullets all that well. They're a sort of generic shape, "one size fits all", when it really doesn't. A bullet that starts a little off true can end up getting seated into the case more than a few thousandths off true and this can affect accuracy adversely.

While there are many bullet runout reading tools, there's one in particular that's very interesting as it not only allows you to read your cartridge's bullet runout, it allows you to adjust and "tweak' it back into perfect concentricity.

I haven't tried one of these myself, but the concept seems sound and the tool sure looks appealing.

It's called a Bersin tool and I'd just google it and go to Kinneman's site to see more about it.

[baltz526]

the suspect bullet seating die is a lyman

[billc_sbio]

Originally Posted by baltz526

the suspect bullet seating die is a lyman

Hmm...could be!:grin:

[adobe wall]

Using a competition die that fits the bullet profile will help improve indicated runout on your cartridges, like Bill said.

While I shot with guys that did check the runout on their assembled cartridges, I never did. I shot with the bullet seated .003 to .005 into the lands and I think that the very minor "crush fit" of the bullet into the chamber probably corrected any runout problems, if any, that I had. FWIW, loading ammo that "long" is not considered to be a safe practice and can create pressure problems.

The people I shot with that did check the rounout of the assembled cartridges used a gage that was basically a set of v-blocks with a dial indicator, and they pretty much went for perfection.

I reckon it depends on how far you are going to shoot and what you consider a flyer. I've always attributed the non-benchrest accuracy of the Partitions to be caused by the stack up of components in the bullet.

jmho, aw

[baltz526]

i went through my ammo in my reload testing box, and all the stuff in question is gone. only new test loads, loaded to standard overall length. i might hit habor freight to buy a cheap runout gauge, i think i saw them there

[BrianMaguire]

I am having the flyer problem as well. I have RCBS dies and usually seat about .05 off the lands. Anal about most things, and shoot some groups that 3 shots will be nearly all in the same hole and then a flyer that will be a full 1" out.

I am still learning, so you guys are saying the the bullet is not vertical when seated and could be casuing flyers.

[adobe wall]

Guys this isn't a flame, and isn't directed at anyone on this thread, but just keep in mind that if you can't call your shots, it's tough to describe any shot as being a "flyer". There's lots of stuff that is more likely to cause problems than bullet runout, the most likely of which is the nut behind the buttplate.

My own experience, shooting off sandbags is conducive to creating parallax error. Keeping a perfectly consistent cheek weld is critical.

If checking the total indicated runout on your cartridges makes you more confident, you will shoot better.

jmho, aw

[StickFish]

I had lots of these types of problems with RCBS dies. Now I use Redding dies - come to think of it, I don't have this problem anymore.

To be honest I did have some flier problems with my 300WSM, but that took using a FL sizing die and adjusting it to to touch the shoulder. Soot the neck adjust die - lock it down - clean soot out of die - ready to go.

I had tried neck sizing but didn't work with that rifle - was about to give up on that Huntn'fish suggested doing the neck sizing with the FL die instead. Worked great.

I neck size everything else I shoot and do not crimp.

Good luck

[Yeti]

I am glad that worked for him.

My experience is that bullet run out in a hunting rifle is not likely to be a problem unless it is extreme. Good loading practices can help to minimize runout. Don't just place your bullet and seat in one operation. At a minimum seat the bullet 1/2 way then rotate the case 180 deg and seat the rest of the way. I normally do this in three opperations. I agree that it is usually the "nut behind the butt" that causes most fliers.

In the bench rest guns I have shot the loads were never checked for run out. I was still able to shoot 5 shots into an inch at 300 yards. Again, good loading practices are where it is at.

Just my .

[toas243]

There are so many variables ,I know my 300 WSM will shoot flyers with winchester brass but with fusion brass I can shoot some good groups ,the bullits them selfs can be a pain

[baltz526]

calling shots, not something i care about while shooting 100yrd groups with hunting ammo. what i want is 1" groups 2" above point of aim. not three touching 1- 4" high right 1 2" high left. next group 3 touching 1- 4" low left 1- 3" right. the flyers might be any place in the 5 shot string.

[StickFish]

Sounds just like my 300 - try a full length sizing die and adjust it so it doesn't touch the shoulder. My fliers were not as bad, but they occurred anywhere in the string.

[Hunt'nFish]

Originally Posted by Yeti

I am glad that worked for him.

My experience is that bullet run out in a hunting rifle is not likely to be a problem unless it is extreme. Good loading practices can help to minimize runout. Don't just place your bullet and seat in one operation. At a minimum seat the bullet 1/2 way then rotate the case 180 deg and seat the rest of the way. I normally do this in three opperations. I agree that it is usually the "nut behind the butt" that causes most fliers.

In the bench rest guns I have shot the loads were never checked for run out. I was still able to shoot 5 shots into an inch at 300 yards. Again, good loading practices are where it is at.

Just my .

EXACTLY! Those of you that attended my reloading seminar, recall that I plucked a .338Ultra from a box of reloads to demostrated how to check bullet run out on my RCBS Case Master gage. Don, was it you that was looking over my shoulder when I checked it?? Recall the needle hardly moved at all....maybe a thousandth or .002". Well also recall during that bullet seating portion I said I like to start to seat a bullet then rotate it 180 seat a little, rotate , seat, rotate, seat.......this is why.

It never occured to me that I could machine a custom seating stem......
Althought I think competition dies have a floating part that should help align the bullet better.
Hunt'nFish

[billc_sbio]

[quote=Hunt'nFish;
It never occured to me that I could machine a custom seating stem......
Althought I think competition dies have a floating part that should help align the bullet better.
Hunt'nFish[/quote]

The proper nose match/alignment is one thing I face with bullets I cast in running them through the Lubrisizer step.

The relatively soft Lead alloy is easily deformed if things don't match up well. (And have sufficient bearing surface)

This is a problem bullet casters face if they buy a mould made by Vendor X and their sizer's made by Vendor Y. There may not be any provision for getting the correct Nose Punch to fit your Sizer.

When Walt Melander was still alive and running his excellent NEI Handtools Bullet Mould making shop over in Scappoose, it was really handy to run over there and just walk in and he'd make me any moulds I wanted WHILE I WAITED (and most mailorders had a 6 week backlog wait. )

What was nice about this was that Walt had blank nose punches made up for the different brands of Lubrisizers, and it was just a few buck$ extra to have him take the same Cherry (mould cutting reamer) and chuck it up in his lathe's Tailpiece Chuck then chuck up the blank Sizer Top Punch in the lathe's Chuck and cut a Top Punch who's profile was cut with the SAME tool that cut my bullet's mould! The fit doesn't come any CLOSER than that!:grin:

[Hunt'nFish]

Back when I was shooting pistols more, I used to go through thousands and thousands of 45acp 155gr SWC handloads. Yep...155 SWC! Very radical profile. WHY? cheap....and they cut real purty round holes in the paper.

Anyway the std SWC seating stem in RCBS carbide die kit was not a close enough match for the 155swc and my bullets would get seated crooked. So I machined a custom seating stem that was a perfect match. No more problems w/ crooked bullets dropping off the Dillon anymore.

If I recall, RCBS will make you a custom seating stem if you send them a bullet....but I don't know how much they charge anymore.
Hunt'nFish

[Don Becker]

Originally Posted by Hunt'nFish

EXACTLY! Don, was it you that was looking over my shoulder when I checked it?? Recall the needle hardly moved at all....maybe a thousandth or .002". Well also recall during that bullet seating portion I said I like to start to seat a bullet then rotate it 180 seat a little, rotate , seat, rotate, seat.......this is why.Hunt'nFish

No, I don't think it was me but I do recall you mentioning the rotation you do. I plan to do that as well.

Also, on a reloading forum I used to frequent, someone offerred that (for typical hunting ammo) by simply eye-balling the arc/elipse of your bullet tip as you slowly roll the reloaded cartridge over a flat surface, one could generally detect the ones that were out far-enough that rejecting, re-seating or "tweaking" the bullet might be a good idea and that, for the rest, it wasn't that critical (again, in typical hunting ammo). [I'm not trying to start a war here - - if that much detailed accuracy is important to others for your purposes, go for it. I'm simply passing-along something I was told and that seems to work for me.]

Don