Big Downrigger Ba... I mean Weights??

Chromaflage · 04-21-2007, 03:42 PM

I've got a pair of Scotty 1101s. For ocean salmon, I know some of you use 15-20# wieghts for your DRs. What shape do you use? Standard ball? Pancake? What's best, what prevents the least back draft?

I'm going to have some made up, but not quite sure which way to go. Advice, please. RonM? Maverick? Anybody? :smile:

Thanks

CrF

newportfisher · 04-21-2007, 03:50 PM

The pancake ones are supposed to produce less drag and stay more straight down.

Maverick Maxcat · 04-21-2007, 04:17 PM

Chromaflage · 04-21-2007, 04:17 PM

What weight on the pancakes, then?

Thanks!!

Weather or Knot · 04-21-2007, 04:23 PM

I use #12 pancakes and they seem to run true and fairly straight down. Much better than the Standard Balls. Less weight on your downriger arms and still better results.

Salty Walty · 04-21-2007, 05:21 PM

I run 13# and 15# pancakes and have Spectra instead of cable.

jet · 04-21-2007, 05:37 PM

What weight of spectra are you usning on the dr? the cable has to go!

Jet~~~

Chromaflage · 04-21-2007, 05:40 PM

And what's wrong with the cable? I'm a DR newbie, so be patient please.

Thanks!!

CrF

Hoghunter · 04-21-2007, 05:59 PM

There's nothing wrong with the cable. Some people don't like cable because of the hum it makes and the larger diameter versus the Spectra.

I run cable and have no plans to switch. I believe that when the cable is humming your fishing. With cable you can use a black box and adjust your positive ion field. Commercial trollers have been using this technology for many years with great results. I also firmly believe in having an angle to your downrigger cable when fishing. I consistently catch fish when I have about a 15 degree angle on my line. When it's straight up and down my catch rates go down.

Regarding pancake weights, they do have much less drag in the water than your traditional round balls. However, you do need to be careful where you use them. If your fishing in an area that has rocks you will have a much better chance of getting your ball back than you would a pancake.

The other nice thing with pancakes is if you get the ones with the fins then you can bend the fins and it will provide more spread on your lines.

I use 12 and 15 lb balls and/or pancakes.

crabbait · 04-21-2007, 11:25 PM

Maverick has the straight poop on downrigger fishing. Some of the numbers he has put up on big chinook are right out of most people's fantasies.

ron m · 04-22-2007, 01:08 PM

I had 12 lb pancakes, they worked, but they are now gone. now I have 20 lb. downrigger balls, got them from Englunds, gotta ask for 'em, they are in the back. I put a stainless eye-screw in them and attach my release clip to it. that way the ball doesn't rotate and I think (but don't know for a fact) that if the ball doesn't rotate or spin, then it will track a little straighter. My boat is 8 ft wide, add a couple of feet on each side from the downrigger arm, and the balls are not far enough apart when they are deep, like 200 ft or more deep. I'd like to have 20 lb pancake weights-with fins, but haven't found them yet. I may try to make some, not sure yet if I will or what method I'd use.

The black box technology sounds great and using spectra I can't use the black box stuff. But with spectra it's easier to get deeper because of the reduced resistance. I have a 50 ft topshot of ss cable since that's the part that gets the most use and abuse. I have a swivel between the spectra and the ss cable. When I had the 12 lb pancake wieghts, i don't think they went as deep as the 20 lb balls do. I want 20 lb pancake wieghts, I think that would be the best for deep trolling. If you're not gonna be fishing deep, then the 12 lb pancake weights are the way to go.

ron m

ron m · 04-22-2007, 01:10 PM

Oh, I should add, crabbait is absolutely correct, Maverick (Mark) is the knowledgeable one about downrigger weights for trolling deep.
ron m

Orca · 04-22-2007, 05:12 PM

Ron,

How about we build up a mold for some 20 lb'ers? I could check on getting the cavity machined for 1 side. I would do it 1/2 at a time, with a piece of aluminum plate in the middle (like the ones at Englund that have the old road signs in the middle). I think 1/2 at a time would be manageable. It could have screws in the plate on each side to give the lead something to hang on to.

I'll have to ask around about the cost of aluminum, I see that mcmaster wants $209 for a piece of 8X8X3" aluminum, then machining on top of that. I'll check into it.

ron m · 04-22-2007, 05:49 PM

Mark, that would work, but it's kinda spendy. I may have seen pieces of aluminum at the scrap metal yard in Albany, be lots cheaper that 209! And I have zero maching skills or tools.

One of the posts I read months ago suggested using a SS bowl and doing half at a time. I'm still thinking about that. I have a piece of sheet SS that could be used as the fin or I could get some sheet aluminum. And I already have lead, easy to get a 20 lb total, just use 10 lbs for each side.
ron m

Chromaflage · 04-22-2007, 05:55 PM

Ron, how heavy is the Spectra you're running? What brand/type?

Thanks!

CrF

ron m · 04-22-2007, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chromaflage

Ron, how heavy is the Spectra you're running? What brand/type?

Thanks!

CrF

I think it's 200 or 250. I got a 1500 ft spool from Dean at Englunds, put about 750 ft on each rigger. Western Filament, I think, that's the standard brand or distributor. Brand shouldn't matter.
ron m

BiteFactory · 04-22-2007, 09:11 PM

I haven't tried it yet but I've read that bending the fin on the pancake weights can help spread them out a little - fly them outward - from one on the other side. I haven't had a tangle up yet, I imagine my next run is doomed now though.

Smily · 04-23-2007, 07:12 AM

Last year I built a 20 LB down rigger weight mold for Maverick. I think he was fine tuning the position of the eyes. Mark, you got anymore news on it?

Orca · 04-23-2007, 11:00 AM

Ron,

A 6X6X2 piece of aluminum is about $50, and the current thought is that it would be about $75 to get it machined.

Another suggestion was to make a mold out of concrete. The concrete option may be worth a try, but it would have to be preheated in an oven, and even then I am not sure if the entrance would freeze shut immediately. It would be worth a quick test to see it the entrance would stay open, and to see how the lead releases after cooling.

Smily, did you make your mold out of aluminum block?

Smily · 04-23-2007, 11:37 AM

Yes, I did build it out of Aluminum. The Mold was a lot bigger than 6X6X2 though. I really should let Maveric talk about it as he was trying to patent it to sell the down rigger weights.

ron m · 04-23-2007, 11:51 AM

If we just pour half of it at a time, I don't think there would need to be an "entrance".

50 for an alum block and 75 to machine it is a bit much for an experiment. I'd want to try the SS bowl approach first.
ron m

Maverick Maxcat · 04-24-2007, 09:58 PM

Thanks Andy, I still havn't found time to try my mods. I talked to a couple fluid dynamics guys, think I know how to fix it. It will take some more machining if they're right.......

Smily · 04-25-2007, 07:08 AM

Mark, Let me know what you need done. I did all the hard stuff to begin with. Should be easy to falsify.

Silver Eagle · 04-25-2007, 07:39 AM

To all am trying to pour two pancake style sides with Aluminum in the center pancake style, will let everyone know tonight, am using a stainless
bowl will have to experiment to get 10# for each side...........Ray

ron m · 04-25-2007, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silver Eagle

To all am trying to pour two pancake style sides with Aluminum in the center pancake style, will let everyone know tonight, am using a stainless
bowl will have to experiment to get 10# for each side...........Ray

Ray, I hope to learn from your experience. Bought more lead today (already had more than enough, may have a chance to pour weights or jigs sometime), a brass rod, and a sheept of aluminum. Got way more than enough lead!!!

A specific question. Did the lead stick to the SS bowl? I don't think it did (or will), but would like to know from your experience. I'm going to try screwing the two pieces together with the alum in between. Is that what you're trying?

BTW, there's probably a trick to it, but drilling into lead is a PITA, the bit binds really badly. I've had several bits break. I think the last time we tried it under running water and that helped quite a bit. Might also try it with the piece into which we're drilling just submerged. I think what's happening is the heat from the bit melts the lead and it solidifies because of the heat sink affect and hence the binding. I think the water may keep the lead from melting around the bit so it doesn't bind so badly.

ron m

fishbait · 04-25-2007, 01:45 PM

Im not a rocket scientest and all the lead I pour is done with commerical molds.

BUT,

If I wanted a big downrigger weight I would calcualte the volume/weight I needed, make one out of some cheap easily sanded/shaped styrofoam, check the vollume via displacement, Cover it with vasoline, put it in a box suspended in the middle (pins or thread) and then fill the box with plaster of paris.

When hard, I would cut it in half with band/hand saw, clean up the mold surfaces, create a inlet hole, carve a position for the anchor point and then rubber band the two sides together and pour some lead.

You could also do wax/sand mold like a jewler does with gold, only larger.

Silver Eagle · 04-26-2007, 06:40 AM

Heres what I know to this point, I started with a nice 8 inch bowl, since I wanted 10# and was using wheel weights I weighted out 11 pounds, since it was too much to handle in one pour I pour in two sets, that was ok because I just put the bowl on the "crab cooker" and heated until it all melted togeather, first side done, it weighted at 9.5 since I had heavy aluminum it worked to 20 but it ended up being 6 1/2 inch across and 1 + inches deep, this concerned me about the total shape, so I am thinking about getting a smaller diameter pan and then running it deeper, this will also end up with a drilling problem, I have an adjustable drill press and think next time I drill will try doing it slower and then maybe try the water solution, but I would like my lead to be around 5", second part is to design the aluminum, I was thinking of cutting a handle in the aluminum tail section but not sure yet. This is still in the experiment phase, I haven't even mounted my new Scotties yet. Will keep everyone informed as I'm sure you guys will. I think they will work well..............Ray

lurking_out_loud · 04-26-2007, 06:57 AM

Just a thought for you creative types.

What about casting a bolt in one side during your pour and only having to drill one side of your molded pair? You could even use a small (like 3/8" ID piece of metal tube in the other half pour to make a pathway for your cast side bolt. Just make sure the bolt you use will pass through the tube and I think you may have a working, simple solution. Thinking this through even more, you could use a piece of the same tube to protect the threads during the initial pour. Just crimp it so it covers the threads to the right depth and pour away.

By the way, this is some of the best shade tree engineering I've seen in a long time. I'm impressed as usual by the Dogs.

-LOL

Chesapeake · 04-26-2007, 08:41 AM

We pour alot of lead, and pour all our own sinkers.

The lead wont stick to the stainless bowl. We use a turkey burner and a cast iron bowl (dutch oven) to melt the lead in.

To drill lead the bit needs to turn real slow.

If I was looking to make a pancake weight I think I would use a six or 8 inch fry pan as the mold. If you used a fry pan with the curved edges it would give a flatter (thinner) overal profile to the finished weight.

I would make the aluminum center plate and mount bolts in it so they stuck out both sides of the plate. Then I would fill the pan with molten lead and set the plate on top of the pan and let it cool. Then simply repeat the process for the other side. The pans depth would need to be adjusted to get the right weight. Doing it this way you would only need to drill aluminum. You could also premount your eye bolts in the aluminum before pouring.

Orca · 04-26-2007, 09:39 PM

Now there's a great idea. No mold building required, and no lead drilling. I'll have to give it a try.

ron m · 04-26-2007, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chesapeake

If I was looking to make a pancake weight I think I would use a six or 8 inch fry pan as the mold. If you used a fry pan with the curved edges it would give a flatter (thinner) overal profile to the finished weight.

This is a good idea, however-- yeah I know, there's always a catch--getting a frying pan with the volume that will be 10 lb.s of lead when filled to the top might be a bit tough.
ron m

Silver Eagle · 04-27-2007, 06:22 AM

Thanks ron m you saved me a Thread on that, but I did find a 5 1/2 inch stainless bown and Monday after I get back from the Columbia I will try and get a smaller size to the Pancake, I know it will work someday I don't think drilling it will be the biggest problem, Later..............Ray

ron m · 04-27-2007, 07:07 AM

10 lb.s of lead, half the "finned weight", has a volume of 400 cubic cm or 24.4 cubic inches or 1.7 cups. It might be possible to find a small frying pan that has a volume of 1.7 cups, but that would be a very small frying pan.

In my kitchen I have lots of cast iron pans, the #3 cast iron has a volume of 2.5 cups. So if a frying pan is used, it will be a very small one. I no longer have a finned downrigger weight, but my recollection is that each lead half of it was pretty thin, not much more than half an inch, but it was only a 12 lb weight.

I'll try to make it by a used store soon, I have seen small skillets that are fairly shallow, may find one that will work. Most of the ones I've seen are teflon coated, maybe it'll come off on the lead and then the weight will slide thru the water with less resistance!

ron m

Chesapeake · 04-27-2007, 08:07 AM

When I was thinking of a fry pan I was thinking of an aluminum one, not a cast iron pan. Everybody I know has a cheap scratched up teflon coated aluminum fry pan in the kitchen.

Just buy the wife a new one and burn the teflon out of the old one and go to cutting. Or pay the $20 bill for a new cheap one.

I have one in the kitchen that is only about 5 inches in diameter. It could be trimmed to about 1.5 inches deep or so. I havent calculated the measurements but I think a 5 inch pan would be close.

I also have a small stainless bowl with a pretty flat bottom. It would be easy to trim it down the same way.

My question is; why 20#? Isnt the point of the pancake weights to improve hydrodynamics (sp?) so you can do more with less weight? I think a 15-17# pancake would be good.

ron m · 04-27-2007, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chesapeake

When I was thinking of a fry pan I was thinking of an aluminum one, not a cast iron pan. Everybody I know has a cheap scratched up teflon coated aluminum fry pan in the kitchen.

I have one in the kitchen that is only about 5 inches in diameter. It could be trimmed to about 1.5 inches deep or so. I havent calculated the measurements but I think a 5 inch pan would be close.

I also have a small stainless bowl with a pretty flat bottom. It would be easy to trim it down the same way.

My question is; why 20#? Isnt the point of the pancake weights to improve hydrodynamics (sp?) so you can do more with less weight? I think a 15-17# pancake would be good.

I don't have the tools nor the skill to cut a pan or bowl down to the requisite depth -- and have an even depth.

I wouldn't use a cast iron skillet, it was just for approximating the size. It's probably deeper than most of the aluminum skillets of a similiar diameter.

If the pan has a 5 inch diameter, then the depth should be about 1.25 inches. Of course that's an approximation because the sides slant and it makes a difference if the diameter is measured at the top or bottom. And of course, the shape and angle of the sides makes a difference too.

Why 20 lb.? Because that's the weight for which Scotty downriggers are rated. And the heavier the weight, the deeper you can fish. 20 isn't necessary, but I'd like to get close to 20, 18 or more. I talked to a Scotty Rep at Englunds dock sale and he told me it could and would handle 20 lb and if I wanted to fish deep, then use 20.
ron m

Chesapeake · 04-27-2007, 03:12 PM

Well I will give it a try and see what I come up with this weekend.

Not that I need a down rigger weight for anything.

I have a thousand pounds or so of lead and a sheet of 1/8 inch aluminum left over from earlier boat repairs. I also need to pour up some 12, 14, and 16 oz. balls for sturgeon.

I too have not yet worked out the details of cutting the pan but I'm sure I will figure out something.

Wish me luck!

Mark Mc · 04-27-2007, 07:16 PM

Ron, when you mentioned the concern for spherical leads spinning & the potential for tangles, I forgot to mention something......

If you want a better spread, you should consider using shear boards. They snap onto the wire and pull the wire out to the side. Standard equipment on every commerical boat.

ron m · 04-27-2007, 08:54 PM

Do shear boards come in sport sizes or just in commercial sizes? I will be asking Dean that question.

Mark Mc · 04-27-2007, 09:03 PM

Most shear boards are home-made...or custom-made. Some are made with clear polycarbonate, a couple screw-eye bolts & tubing. The set I had (have? in storage?) are welded stainless.

Orca · 04-28-2007, 09:01 PM

For those who planned to drill and bolt 2 halves, a #3 cast iron pan should do the trick fine. I filled one full to the rim and it looks like it is about 14 lbs. So, you can pick a spot short of full and hit whatever poundage you desire. I don't want to bolt mine, so I will need a mold. Maybe 2 #3's ground down and clamped together in a vise would do the trick.

For reference, the 12 lb pancake weights from Englunds in Newport have 1/16" aluminum plate in the middle. A piece of stainless wire forms an eye at the top of the lead, and a hole in the aluminum fin is used for attaching the clip. The profile of the lead is 5 1/2" diameter, 1" thick, with 45 degree shoulders.

Chesapeake · 05-08-2007, 08:16 AM

Did anyone get anywhere with this? I didnt get much time to work on it but I found 2 aluminum camping plates that are about 5 inch diameter and 1.25 inches deep. They look like they would work great if they are rigid enough.

I think in order to be worth the time spent it needs to be a mold that can pour an entire weight. I'm still tossing it around in my mind how to get the aluminum plate mounted in the mold so its melted in the lead.