Ocean conditions suitable for my boat?

[SummitOne]

Here is the question…..and I know there are many, many variables, but what ocean conditions are “suitable” for my boat?
What I have is a 23’ Customweld jet boat with a 8.8’ beam, 6.5’ bottom, 11 degree deadrise in the bow and 35” sides. It has a hard top, high deck and slightly recessed bow (about 6”). It is a great white water boat and stays dry with the wide bow. I know this makes for a punishing ride in open water.
I have read many of the posts on bar crossing, size of tide changes, square seas and paying attention to forecasts. And yes, I will go with an experienced wing man for the first few trips until I learn.
Specifically, being new to ocean fishing, what sea conditions are favorable for my boat? Assuming that the wind chop and swell are less than the wave frequency, would you hesitate to take my boat into the ocean with a 3’ wind chop, or 4’? It seems that wind chop is more of a factor than swell height, is that correct?
I know that skill is also a big factor, and sleds aren’t the best ocean boats, but I need to start somewhere.
Right now I am leaning toward days that have less than 10 knots of wind, wind waves of 2’ or less and swells of 6’ or less at 12 seconds or more.
After reading many of the posts it appears that a number of you had sleds prior to purchasing more ocean suitable boats. I learn so much from Ifish and all of your posts. It is such a great advantage to have a resource like this. Thank you for your help and knowledge, I learn a lot from all of you.
Paul

[skybuster]

The scary thing about your boat from my perspective is the recessed bow. I have a 19' sled with the same type of recessed bow, and it has decent sized holes that are supposed to allow the bow to be self-draining.

The problem I have had, especially in the lower Columbia when the wind kicks up on an outgoing tide, is wind waves stacked close together. In this scenario you may start taking waves over the bow, and the recessed area starts filling with water. The waves are too close together to allow it to drain before the next wave hits, and now you're bow heavy and plowing. I have had to have passengers move to the stern of the boat so that I could get the bow up enough to safely make it back to port on a couple occasions when I stayed out too long.

I've taken my boat to the ocean several times, but only on flat calm days with no wind waves.

[CATCH AND EAT]

BEing a jet the answer in actual 3 and 4 water would be yes I would hesitate a bit if I had not done this before. Many of us here are skilled with jets and they are not a problem. Bad thing with a jet though is if you fill your front well with water and she noses in a bit it brings the pump up out of the water and thus no propulsion making you suseptible to wave action.

What it boils down to is common sense bro. If you question the conditions or your abilities it is best to stay at the dock and live another day. Baby steps, pick your days and have a wingman with you or have an experienced person help you cross the bar and show you the ropes out there.

There are a ton of threads on this subject in the archives that you should personally search and read. They are most helpful for all of us experienced and inexperienced alike.

[LiveBait]

SummitOne,

I have an 21 foot alumaweld windshield with the open bow up front. When I take her out in the ocean I have a top gun canvas which snaps over the bow enclosing it. It fits very snug, and makes me feel more secure in case I take water over the bow. Secondly, if its that rough is it practicable to be out fishing? At that point I think I would stay in the bay and crab, fish in the bay, or get out the driftboat and head for a river. Just my thoughts...

LiveBait

[Pilar]

3 to 4 foot wind chop means alot of spray. I would guess wind at 20 to 25 to make that kind of chop. In any boat I would avoid those conditions. Not because I think the boat would sink but because I've had my share of beatings.

In an aluminum boat with a shallow deadrise the problem is greatly aggravated. Find your limits but start with much better conditions. In a fiberglass boat with a steep bow and vee bottom you will slam if you find a wave with no back on it. It happens to all of us. In an aluminum river boat you will hurt people from the slamming. It will be continuous in any short choppy conditions.

The other thing is the fuel consumption. Be very careful to know your burn rate. I would invest in a flow meter.

My money is on you never find out about 3 to 4 foot wind chop. Your boat will take that abuse for a while but you won't last 5 minutes.

All boats can take more abuse than the people driving them.

Don't overlook the OPB plan. Ride on other boats and make a list of the things you like about them. This can quickly become a list of desired features when you go boat shopping.

[DriftR]

Due a check of your boat. Make sure you have compass & know how it works.
Nautical charts of the area you will be cruising/fishing. A good vhf radio with a good antenna. Adequate PFD for the ocean. GPS of some kind. Then ask yourself what happens if the fog rolls in on you? Have you encountered that situation before?
Like what was said above, know your fuel consumption for your jet. Have a VSC performed by the US COAST GUARD AUX. or UNITED STATES POWER SQUADRON. Free and they will let you know if you're missing needed safety equipment or potential problems with your craft.
I've seen a lot of jets out on the deep blue. No problem for the experienced skipper. On your first outings stay in close and pay attention to weather, swells and what's happening around you.
Just make sure your boat is well equiped and have enough fuel for the range you plan on cruising or fishing for a round trip.

[Livin the Dream]

I have a 20' jet that has seen the salt many times. I rarely go out in anything more than 2' of chop. If I get out there and it looks nasty....I go back, or dont cross at all, its just not worth the pounding. Once you do get out...TAKE IT EASY ....I made the mistake of trying to get out in a hurry once and had a person on my boat get a minor injury from coming down off a wave.
Our jet boats are not built to do 40mph out there.

That being said my first two trip across the bar were done with an experienced skipper on board who was familiar with the bar I was crossing, coaching me across and back. Man what a help that was. If you can get someone to go with you a time or two I think its a great way to learn a bar crossing. Or as Pilar said ride along with someone, plenty of folks on here that you could connect up with...just ask!

I almost didnt get a GPS combo unit when I bought my Lowrance, man Im glad I did. We got fogged in so bad one day at outside the CR you literally could not see 20ft ahead. I had three tin boats follow me across the bar that had no GPS. I would NEVER cross without one, preferably with a backup. Radio is a must as well.

Good luck and know when to turn around!
AL

[SS Piledriver]

Originally Posted by skybuster

The problem I have had, especially in the lower Columbia when the wind kicks up on an outgoing tide, is wind waves stacked close together. In this scenario you may start taking waves over the bow, and the recessed area starts filling with water. The waves are too close together to allow it to drain before the next wave hits, and now you're bow heavy and plowing.

sounds like the church hole of death. peak ebb with 9ft of water running and thirty mph wind blowing upsteam. the frequency of the waves is about 8-10 feet, with the waves at 6ft high and no backside.

[SummitOne]

This is all great information, please keep posting.

Boat has an expanded tank and holds 120 gallons of fuel and burns 9-11 GPH. Have lots of PFD's, including the Mustang Auto inflates.

Lots of electronics including a Lowrance GPS and handheld unit, fixed VHF and handheld unit. Lots of expeience with a compass as one of my hobbies is adventure racing which involves extended back country travel navigating only by map and compass. VSC is a great idea.

I concur, if its too rough, like the 3-4' chop, I wont go. Would you guys go out if it's 1-2' of chop? I guess a 2' wave still sounds pretty rough.

I think I have good equipment, but lack the expereince. Looking to take those baby steps, but just don't want to fall too hard. I have a lot of respect for the big blue, well really I respect all bodies of water!

Thanks you again for the information, please keep it comming.

Paul

[SummitOne]

Need2Fish - You posted just before me....and answered the 2' chop question. Thanks.

[Moldy45]

You could get a air bladder made to fit in the bow so no water can fill it.

I have had many days that were forcasted at 1' and 6' at 10 seconds that ended up beating the bajibberz out me in my deep v hull. You should really take a ride with one of the salty dogs first to get a idea as to what it will be like,because a forcast looks good on the internet in reality it is only a forcast.
Boat safe,Be safe Take small steps

[Tacklebuster]

The answer to your question is both complex and very simple. I have a 21' Seahawk that I have had out in the ocean many times over the last three years and it wasn't until last year 54 miles offshore on the day of the Tuna Tourney was held out of Garibaldi that I finally "found" my limit of "suitable" conditions and then it was a touch too much for me. Ocean forecasts and predictions are nothing more than educated guesses and alot of the times are based on the "worst" case for that area. If memory serves me correct, it was a 2 and 5 prediction that actually was more like a 7 foot to 9 foot steep swell with many that lacked backs.

To find the answer to your question your gonna have to spend some time out there in various conditions to know what is right for your skill level and where the point begins where the fun of being out there ends.

I have been out there with 7 foot lazy swells and it was great. I have also grinned at a 2 and 4 only to grimace at the beating I took once I was out there.

Be sure and have all your safety gear, learn as much as you can and then go for it. I started off making runs out in a 19' inboard jet off the mouth of the Columbia. Boats, in general, will take far more than the guy can behind the wheel. You just need to find out what that is and nobody on here, in my opinion, can tell you that.

[Chrome Bumper]

Originally Posted by Moldy45

You could get a air bladder made to fit in the bow so no water can fill it.

Seems like a plywood cover fastened down on the bow would be the cat's meow. (Built with a chamber and ribs on the bottom). Those bulk freighters are just open boats with hatch covers. Leave it in the garage when you boat the poison.

[backlash442]

Do you guys ever look at this site before heading out?

http://www.ndbc.noaa.gov/maps/Northwest.shtml

I think they work fairly well in conjunction with the forecasts but even then NOAA still gets them wrong. Usually we look at what's above us to get an indication of what's coming down.

3'-4' wind chop wouldn't be fun in any boat. Like Pilar said the wind would have to be blowing pretty hard and think it's closer to 25knots. On top of that you have the swell to deal with. I've fished in over 30knots and it was bad. You could hear the tops of the waves ripping down the gunnels. It was pretty amazing. Won't be doing that again any time soon.

Pick your days and I'm sure you'll have a good time. Heck on a flat day even the ski boats are out.

[SummitOne]

Again I am learning lots from your posts.

Sounds like my bow might be an issue and would need to be addressed. Although on a calm day it shouldn’t be a problem. Especially if there are ski boats out there. And, 3-4’ wind waves is out of the question.

One thing that is a concern to me is the unreliability of the forecast. Is this more the exception than the norm?

Also, what do you consider a flat ocean? One more questions…..when you say waves lack a back side, what do you mean?

Thanks again, and again, ….

[TROPHY1]

Start with the really good days, say a 1ft ww and 4ft swell, test that out and note it down. then pick a 2ft day and so on. The thing is to be able compare the forcast and how you perform in it starting at the easy end of the scale not in the middle. After some time you will see the variation in forcast with the actual and you want to see that on good days not bad to worse days.
I like the reminder every once and a while "Their isn't always second chances or do overs on the sea" Helps keep me in check.

[Nalu]

SummitOne- In regard to the unreliability of the forecast--

With all due respect to those that feel NOAA blows the forecast all the time, I actually disagree. I think NOAA does a pretty respectable job of forecasting. They are not trying to forecast ACTUAL conditions, they are forecasting what they think will be the worst conditions in a given area. That given area can be up to 12,000 square miles

For our area, it is first broken down into the Cape Shoalwater to Florence range, roughly 200 miles north to south, by 60 miles out. It can be sub-broken into Cape Shoalwater to Cascade Head, and then Cascade Head to Florence, out 20 miles.

In both of these circumstances the forecast is listing the prediction for the worst weather in the general area. A prediction of 15-20 knots, with a 4-6 foot swell and 2-3 foot wind waves is not uncommon, and many times on the beach it may be almost calm, and nothing like the forecast. This is where a lot of guys tend to say NOAA "blows it". Last year at the OTC in Newport was a perfect example. I stood in front of a room full of tuna fisherman at the Shilo, my back facing a set of windows that showed a greasy slick ocean, and announced the tourney was cancelled due to rough ocean condition. From shore to almost 20 miles out was fine, but then it was so nasty that I had turned around in my scouting trip along with all the other sport boats.

Again, with all due respect, many boaters also tend to believe the water they are on is much bigger, and much rougher than what the forecast predicts, when it really is right on the money. I have come in many days to hear small boat guys saying the ocean whipped up to 4-6 foot when it was really perhaps 2-3 feet. Swell gets exagerated as well. Things like fog make the swells seem much bigger than they actually are. Again, not trying to bruise any egos, but if you talk to most skippers that have spent day in and day out on the water you will see that the size of the swell and chop is significantly smaller than most trailer sailors identify it as.

2006 was a rough year on the ocean. Lots of days that were pretty close to what was predicted. 4-6 foot swell, with 2-3 foot chop. I fished a lot of these days, and with the exception of charter boats, and perhaps Maverick Maxcat most guys turned and went in. Look at the thread that was just posted about "what about this forecast" and you'll get lots more info.

Here's a pic I took a couple years ago on a day that probably was only a 2-3 foot swell with perhaps a 2 foot chop on it. I-Fisher Spindrifter is in the pic with a shark on the line.

[Moldy45]

With due respects this was a 6 and 2 at 11 second day

http://www.ifish.net/board/showthread.php?t=115860

my small boat was there and it was not the prediction

[Nalu]

No doubt Moldy, I certainly didn't mean to imply that NOAA always gets it right. It it the weather after all, and sometimes is is worse than predictions.

I just see that people often say that NOAA blows the prediction and the majority of the time the weather is either much nicer than the prediction, or the same as. For sure, sometimes it is worse, as noted by the thread.

I've also seen weather come up that seemed to come from nowhere, and was WAY worse than anything that was even close to being predicted. That's one of the reasons I get scared when people take boats far offshore that really aren't designed for it. No weatherman, trend, or anything else will help you when SHE turns into a frothing, confused mess. At that point you only have your boat, and your good judgement to get you home.

I remember that day, and the people that were on my boat as one of them was my employee that was puking as soon as we stopped to start fishing. Where I was at I would say it might have been 6 and 3, and definitely not 6 and 4. Wind was out of the NW, and Jason was sitting in the back corner of the boat as I backed the boat down on the spots. Why would I say that it was not 6 and 4, and only pushing 6 and 3? Mainly because I never took a wave over the transom while backing directly into the swell and wind waves. From the water line to the top of my transom is right at about 42 inches. With the combination of backing into it, and the boat bobbing up and down, we had wind waves splash the very top of the transom, but never crest over.

Now, I wasn't fishing were Moldy was. The Rockpile is shallower, and often times is quite a bit sloppier than deeper spots. Even boats like the Tacklebuster out of Depoe report running into some very sloppy conditions crossing the north end of the rockpile on their way to the chicken ranch upon occasion.

[fishwhenican]

Sounds like my bow might be an issue and would need to be addressed. Although on a calm day it shouldn’t be a problem. Especially if there are ski boats out there. And, 3-4’ wind waves is out of the question.

The recess in the bow is more of a boat design issue and how your boat rides up the waves. The Church hole on the lower Columbia on an outgoing tide is a good example of where you will find out how your boat handles steep close together waves and how much water stays in the bow. 5 footers 10 foot apart will surely fill the bow, how fast it drains is the key. My boat has a small (6") recessed bow. When I've gone thru those kind of waves and water comes over the bow most of it blows over the top or out the sides, what little amount is left drains out the scuppers leaving less than 5 to 10 gallons of water in the bow (thin film). Other than in that situation, at that location, I've only taken water over the bow twice in the ocean (not counting wind spray), once was while crossing the Winchester bay bar.

So what it boils down to: know your boat and start out in small waves and not much wind and work up.

[Moldy45]

Summitone we have all been caught off guard by conditions in the blue!
I have been outside tilly in a 16 starcraft many times,do I think it was safe? yes I do the times I was out there it was pancake flat.
I have seen car toppers out there for the fall fishery.Do I think your boat would do fine in those conditions ? why absolutely!
The trouble is that thing called the salt that drives us to it likes to get temperamental at times and it can get uglier than you would like very fast!
The best advice I could give you is to take some open seat offers and just see for yourself,there is more to it than if your boat is suitable,you need experiance and need to know how to point yourself to waves ,swells.you need to know how to read the bar conditions,ask for bar reports from CG,dont make a habit of coming in or going out on a ebb.
Start slow and learn from some experienced Salts.

There always seems to be a post like this come up every so often and I don't think any of us would just say why yes your boat and your seamanship will be just fine out there. Nobody wants to hear a distress call on the salt

[Moldy45]

Originally Posted by Nalu

No doubt Moldy, I certainly didn't mean to imply that NOAA always gets it right. It it the weather after all, and sometimes is is worse than predictions.

I just see that people often say that NOAA blows the prediction and the majority of the time the weather is either much nicer than the prediction, or the same as. For sure, sometimes it is worse, as noted by the thread.

I've also seen weather come up that seemed to come from nowhere, and was WAY worse than anything that was even close to being predicted. That's one of the reasons I get scared when people take boats far offshore that really aren't designed for it. No weatherman, trend, or anything else will help you when SHE turns into a frothing, confused mess. At that point you only have your boat, and your good judgement to get you home.

I remember that day, and the people that were on my boat as one of them was my employee that was puking as soon as we stopped to start fishing. Where I was at I would say it might have been 6 and 3, and definitely not 6 and 4. Wind was out of the NW, and Jason was sitting in the back corner of the boat as I backed the boat down on the spots. Why would I say that it was not 6 and 4, and only pushing 6 and 3? Mainly because I never took a wave over the transom while backing directly into the swell and wind waves. From the water line to the top of my transom is right at about 42 inches. With the combination of backing into it, and the boat bobbing up and down, we had wind waves splash the very top of the transom, but never crest over.

Now, I wasn't fishing were Moldy was. The Rockpile is shallower, and often times is quite a bit sloppier than deeper spots. Even boats like the Tacklebuster out of Depoe report running into some very sloppy conditions crossing the north end of the rockpile on their way to the chicken ranch upon occasion.

That was some confused sea that day! that was the reason I stayed in close, I wasn't gunna run out any farther hehe.My boat handled that great but we wernt gunna fish in it.
I notice running over the north end of the pile it is sometimes rougher also

[SouthCoastStu]

days that have less than 10 knots of wind, wind waves of 2’ or less and swells of 6’ or less at 12 seconds or more.

Sounds like you’re on the right track. That’s about the upper limit I look for, more than that and it’s just not as much fun.

A couple other considerations based on personal observation:
1.) These are just predictions. It’s usually quite a bit better, sometimes it can be worse, depending on exactly where you are in the forecast area.
2.) The wind usually doesn’t start up until later in the morning. Go early and return early. Stay late and pay the price
3.) Plan your trip around the tides. I’ll go out on an marginal prediction if the tide is incoming in the morning, I can bail and return if conditions deteriorate. Leave on the high slack and you may be stuck outside for quite awhile with worsening conditions
4.) Direction makes a big difference. Go into the predicted wind direction on the way out if possible and return with it. Going with a 2 & 6 is a lot different than going against a 2 & 6, especially in a light/flat aluminum boat (like 20 knts vs 10 knts). Think about how long it will take to get back under the given conditions and how much worse conditions can get in that time period

If you’re taking water into your bow area, you’re going to fast for the conditions

[backlash442]

Nalu, I think you are right about some boaters not really knowing how big (or small) the swells are or how hard the wind is blowing. However, in my case I know for sure the wind was blowing over 30knots because the channel bouys were clocking them. In fact the winds were actually worse because we were fishing the lee (although several miles away) of an island which typically has the wind speed increase when coming off the backside. Much like winds increase coming down a canyon. Interestingly enough, as you mentioned about it being calm on the inside that's exactly how that day was. Greasy slick most of the way to the tuna but boy those last 10 miles or saw made a huge difference.

One thing about high spots is you will often times see the swells "jack up" around them. Even if the high spot is 300 fathoms and the surrounding water is over 600 fathoms it can and will get rough. Seen that many times.

[Duckwheat]

I did the jet boat thing out of Newport trying to go out to the Rockpile. I had a similar boat. The problem was to get up and moving you are launching off the top of about every third swell. It was a spine tingling ride.

I looked at Jr. and I could see he was contemplating changing his interest to golf. It had ceased to be fun.

A prop allows you to find that spot where you can make some headway with out demolishing your boat and the disc between the vertebrae.

Duckwheat

[Nalu]

backlash- You're absolutely right on the money. I've been in 30 knot winds, but I don't know that I've ever fished in them in the boat I have now. I don't think I have. I did pick up crab pots on a day that the Southerlies were dead in the morning, then rose within 45 minues. Below is the wind readings for the day...onshore.

Never over 25 knots, and it was downright NASTY. NW swell and South wind turned into vertical waves, and a very nervewracking ride from Lincoln Beach back to the hole in Depoe. Completely unfishable. Fish Assasin was fueling his 30 foot Maxweld Cat up in Newport that day and travelled with the seas back to Depoe, and even he said it was nasty.

For reference, I was attempting to fly a kite that morning on the beach with my niece and nephew and there wasn't enough breeze to keep the kites up.

I posted this on the "bumpy tuna" thread but thought the empirical data deserved its own thread.

Here's the wind report from the Jetty at Newport yesterday.

07 10 2:00 pm --- S--- 19 --- 23
07 10 1:00 pm --- S --- 20 --- 23
07 10 12:00 pm --- S --- 17 --- 21
07 10 11:00 am --- SE --- 5 --- 6
07 10 10:00 am --- ESE --- 5 --- 7
07 10 9:00 am --- ESE --- 5 --- 7

In the course of 1 hour the sustained wind speed increased 12 knots and the gust increased 15 knots and swung from a semi-offshore wind to direct southerly. From my first hand experience, the wind really picked up in about 15 minutes. I was pulling pots in relatively nice seas, and turned to run back to port in nasty slop.

This isn't OFFSHORE. This is right on the beach.

I know it's seems to be a waste of time, but hopefully somebody will perk up and actually think, "Wow, it CAN change quick out there, even when I'm close to port."

[Spoonplugger]

My 2 cents:

In 1988 I went out of Depoe Bay with a crew of 4. Winds, according to NOAA was supposed to max at 25 knots from the north. Instead the winds maxed 45 knots from the south. Long story short, it took us more than 2 hours to get from the reefs out from Siletz to the hole at Depoe. The CG, bless their soul, waited for us at the whistle bouy and escorted us in. At the time I owned a 21 foot Harvey Dory that for the first time ever, had waves breaking over the bow of the boat.

Point: Things can change without warning--be prepared!

The best advice I can give is this:

In the beginning of your ocean fishing experience, go with someone experienced. (Go with Nalu charters for example, he would be more than happy to start your experience.)

When you do go out in your own boat, NEVER go alone. That is without a group of ifisher's. On the better days, there will usually be many ifisher's out there. Hang with the crowd and make sure that you have radio and visual contact with them. Also, if you feel uneasy, make sure a boat or two close by knows. I'm sure all of us would be more than willing to stand by.

[CATCH AND EAT]

Here is one other observation to follow on the pacific up here in the NW and especially off the CR. If the wind is from the south or SW more than 10 mph it can be a very bad day trying to get around out there. I have gone out to the shale pile on a 2and4 prediction with 10 to 15 winds from the S and it was not so much fun at all. It makes for a real maytag effect and unpleasant fishing. A 5 to 10 prediction is doable in 2 and 4 at 9 seconds.

Again Swell period and wind waves always play a part in go or no go. A wise ifisher here says "put a Hairy eyeball on it" and I agree. If you fish the prediction you will never fish. However it is a great guidline to go by. NOAA site is okay, I like Wet Sand better as last year it seems it was a closer prediction. Others here go by the navy site predictions which seem very reliable also. Even though our own Seasoned Nalu gives credit to NOAA I will humbly disagree with him on their accuracy based on last years predictions. They were not real reliable IMHO and I was out on predictions of 1 and 3 and it was every bit of 3 and 5. I have personally been out on the previous boat I owned in 3 and 6 (23' trophy) and it was fishable but not fun. That was the day POP'S fell and split his head open and then got real sick afterwards. Not a fun experience.

My only real beef with your boat is that it is a jet. Slower responce than a prop boat. Just my Oh, regardless of conditions always have your window shut and top up. You will not be sorry crossing the bar like that. Then if the ocean is nice you can get sporty and roll the top back and pull your shirt off like my Buddy Tacklebuster. Just no pink shorts please.

[SummitOne]

You guys are awesome! Thank you for taking the time to post and share your knowledge.

It seems there is a common theme here, and if I boil it down it looks like this:

1. Verify first that the craft is suitable for ocean travel; condition, maintenance, electronics, range/fuel and safety equipment. Top it off with a VSC. Maybe a cover on the bow.

2. Start small with a flat day on the ocean (1 and 4 with less than 10 knots forecasted). Pay attention to trends and forecast. It is very clear things can get real ugly very quick. Prepare for the worst case scenario.

3. Travel in a group, use a wing man. On the first few trips take an experienced person in the boat with me to show me the ropes. Or, ride with someone else to learn. Or charter a boat, like Nalu.

4. Gain experience and build on it.

Did I miss anything? I have been crabbing on the bays for years, and have been on 10-12 charter boats, but I am looking forward to the next step.

Oh, and I thought I would top this novel off with a quick story….if you still have the patience to read. I mentioned earlier that I do a sport called adventure racing. This sport involves trial running, mountain biking, rock climbing and kayaking. I was doing a race in 2003 down in Fort Bragg Ca. This race involved an ocean kayak section that was about 15 miles long paddling in a tandem kayak, two people. The first half started out great, but then it happened. We rounded the point by the light house and found ourselves in 18’ seas with 30 knot head winds, in a 17 foot kayak. And, not making any headway. If you have ever been along that section of coast, it’s all cliffs. We had nowhere to get to shore and pull out. We literally were paddling for our lives. After two hours of being sick and now exhausted (four hours into the paddle) we see a Coast Guard cutter go by. It did not stop. We paddled for another 45 minutes, again exhausted and paddling for our lives. Suddenly we hear voices behind us and it’s the CG in a little Avon. They pull up alongside of us and told us to get in. We tossed our paddles into the boat and jumped in. They just let the kayak go and proceeded to tell us they were saving lives, not gear. Enough said. They motored us over to the cutter and told us to get on. Now that was an experience, boarding the cutter in 18’ seas. Basically we jumped over the rail and landed on our sides on the metal deck. Ouch, but alive. On deck we found 19 teams they picked up before us. The whole boat was covered in puke. Even that room below deck was smothered in vomit. It was so rough that even one of the CG grew was puking. They motored us back to the harbor where we recovered and proceed with the race, finishing 7th I might add out of 40+ teams! Made for a great article in the local news paper.

Thanks again for your help. You guys are great.

Paul

[SecondSeason]

this is a day even this fishing boat was re-thinking its choice to chase tuna. KNOW THE LIMIT and LIVE TO FISH ANOTHER DAY

[id. painter]

Limit conditions .

Im in a 20 fter.
Tacklebuster and myself independently decided on a limit ,,, tourny day at Garbaldi.

We were safe ,but uneasy .
If things had gottn much worse we would have had a very long worried ride home from 65 miles out...

You need to experience the power of the sea to get a feel for Your limit .
Spend as many days as you can out there,,, near shore.

This will give you a basis for your decision.
Without your own judgment you cant trust anyone else.....and your boat is just a accident waitting to happen .

Go fish the salt.... be careful and as all have said ,,take baby steps ..

Tackle buster ,,,,, did you catch fish tourny day at Garbaldi?

I had a blast out there. caught 10 fish .....
id. p.

[SummitOne]

Tacklebuster and Id.painter - Is it common to see 20-21 foot boat 50+ miles offshore? Or are you two more the exceptions?

[Pilar]

Maybe not the exception but larger boats are more common. Still you can't forget about 'Pilar', 'Sea Lion', 'WP', 'Retaliate' and some others as well as the guys you mentioned.

50 miles is a long ways out. That was my max range on 'Pilar', on a nice day. I much prefer 'area 61' at about 32 miles, even on the larger 'Kismet'.

On another note .. I for one am grateful that you are asking questions like this. For every guy like you that is asking them out loud there are others who are just thinking about them.

[stupenny5]

Have a good will. Don't cut short of the channel northside nice breakers at the wrong time. Start slow say Newport see how she Handles before you go big time on the columbia.

[Paddler]

id painter and I have the same boat. I'll run out 50+ miles also, but choose my days just as he does. I had a couple of days last year when I stayed in about the 20 mile mark, fishing for salmon. All the time wishing I could have gone SW to tuna, instead of NW. Oh, for a 28' pilothouse.

[backlash442]

SummitOne, it's not about how big the boat is but how well it's designed. Certain boats are better suited for fishing offshore than others.

I want to say that the day I fished in 30 knot plus winds there were a few reasons we chose to go and wouldn't have gone in other circumstances. Number one we were buddy boating with a 36' Luhrs although he bailed before we even wet a line. Number two my friend knew a commerical boat black cod fishing only a few miles away closer to the lee of the island. Number three we knew we were fairly close to the lee and could get out of the weather. Being in the lee also knocked down much of the swell. We were also able to run up the backside of another island in flat conditions. We never felt unsafe and the boat handled the weather extremely well and it was only 22'.

[Tacklebuster]

Summitone,
I wouldn't say we are the exeption cause I see far more boats out there bred for the ocean but I feel safe in my Seahawk and I have been out as far as 64 miles one time. If the ocean is gonna get you, she is gonna get you, even boats as mighty as the titanic found that out. The things you need at the top of your lists is safety and knowledge and sometimes not even in that order. I went three years in my boat before I found out where I didn't want to be when the ocean turned nasty and it was way worse than the "prediction". If you fish a 1 to 2 foot wind chop prediction than you will be sitting at home reading this board way more than you would be fishing. Start early and plan on an early return. As a skipper, don't get caught up in the moment all the time and constantly scan the ocean and horizon for changes. When it starts getting a little uncomfortable, that means you should have headed for the barn 10 minutes ago. My rule of thumb is know where your going... Let's take the ranch for example. Run out to 10 miles or so and then stop. Stand up and see if you can stand there and function without having to hold on to something. Then turn around like your going back in and see how you feel running in that direction, if all is good.... continue. Tuna is nice from Depoe cause 99 percent of the time you ride the ocean back in, the Ranch is a different story though.

Be safe, gain experience.... and have fun!

[Spoonplugger]

SummitOne,

You are starting with a "23’ Customweld jet boat with a 8.8’ beam, 6.5’ bottom" while I started with a 15' 1" Gregor and a 15 HP Yamaha 2-stroke, which I still own. I did have a back up motor meaning, a good set of oars, a compass, flares and a CB. Cell phones weren't invented yet.

I picked my days which some years were quite a few. I usually filled my salmon tag and that was when we could catch 40 fish. Caught lots of ling cod and other bottom critters.

Some people thought I was crazy, but the days I went out were beautiful days and I stayed close, no more than about 5 miles from Depoe Bay. I don't regret those trips in the least. However, looking back I may have been taking a chance.

I was being scoffed at one day at the launch and a commercial fisherman that was working on his dry docked boat overheard and came to my rescue. He asked me in front of them, "Does that boat float if swamped?" I answered in the affirmative. Then he looked at the scoffers, pointed to his 40-some foot troller and said, "That's my boat, I'm repairing it with cement. If my boat swamps it will sink like a rock." He walk away and so did everyone else.

Anyway, you got to start somewhere like you stated earlier. Just be patient and have fun. This whole ocean fishing thing is truly, AWESOME.

[Pilar]

Tacklebuster .. excellent point. I did this at times in 'Pilar', especially on the trips to the SW like the pile and ranch. If you ever find yourself running downwind to the fishing you can not lose sight of the ride home into the wind and waves.

It is always easier to run with it than across or against it. It's just like 8 ball. Making the shot is not the only point. Making the shot with respect to leaving your opponent in a bad place if you miss is the point. As well as lining up for your next shot if you make it. Mind your leave.

This is why we get as many fishing days as we get. Almost alway we run to the NW into the wind and water. And return later with conditions deteriorating but running downwind. You make the first shot in the corner pocket and line up for the next shot.

The farther you go offshore the farther ahead you have to think in terms of weather and conditions.

[Nalu]

Spoonplugger is right on the money. Depoe Bay has a wooden boat club, and there are beautiful boats with small engines, or just oars that go fish the reefs out front on nice days.

I've even seen a pontoon boat out fishing the reefs south of Depoe a time or two.

Me....I'm a chicken. I'm not afraid of the ocean, but my respect certainly borders on the edge of fear, and I'm ok with that. I've gone the other direction then guys like Pilar. I grew up working on 35 and 40 foot boats, and fishing in conditions that smaller boats couldn't fish in. I remember while in gradeschool being in the house of our commercial 42 foot troller while waves washed up to the windows, and the tips of the poles were dipping each side with every roll. We were plenty safe, I wasn't scared, but it was something I'll not forget.

I like the comfort and surety of what a well bred offshore boat brings because offshore is where I want to play, and I have a comfort level and expectation of what a boat should do.

You are sure to have many, many days of great salt water fishing in your boat. Following the advice of guys like Pilar will get you out and back safely, and with a full box of fish.

[SummitOne]

Again, great points and great information. 15 foot boats, “row boats”, 20/21’ boats out 50-60 miles, I think you guys are nuts….or maybe “calculated crazy”. Actually in all seriousness, it’s pretty amazing!

I am sure there are plenty of people that venture into the big blue with little or no knowledge about what they are embarking upon. But for me, as they say, “why reinvent the wheel” and “knowledge is power”, or should I say, knowledge allows me to make better informed decisions. By you posting to this thread, and the many, many other threads I have read with your posts, you are shortening the learning curve for me. Helping me make good decisions.

Without a doubt, I have my eyes set on salmon and bottom fishing, fisheries close in. Maybe halibut in the future and I will continue to charter tuna trips. 50+ miles from shore should be left to the pro’s and seasoned veterans with boats suitable for those excursions. Not a rookie in a river tub.

Thanks for hanging in there with me on this thread, you guys are awesome!

Paul

[Pilar]

We still see those guys who wake up and decide to take the gooseworth jet sled out for a little ocean fishing.

It's a free country.

I suspect most of them have a religious experience on one of thier first few trips.

The cool thing about our forum is that the curious can learn. No one needs to make the mistakes most of us have made.

[stupenny5]

So true Pilar.

[SummitOne]

Do you see sleds 50+ miles from shore? That's a long haul for those gas guzzlers.

I think I will even start my trip with a religious experience in port.

Paul

[BIGALSURF]

Even on days with a small swell and little wind chop I've buried my bow in the second wave of a big boat's wake. They've hit me from big boats that have gone past quite a distance from me. I let my buddy drive my boat once on a "calm" day as I got going on rigging bait while he took us over the last of the "easy" bar and all of a sudden I felt the bow rise, drop rise and the boat shudder as he yelled "Whoa!" and then there was water running down the walkaround and out the scuppers, my boat is salty and was dry in a second, but he asked me with a very white face to take over and was quiet for a long time. The point of relating this is that there are surprises out there that you can't control and the only way to be ready for it is to be structurally ready for it, and not hoping that alertness or judgement will make up for it.

If I wanted to take a boat like yours into the salt and feel safe I'd get a solid aluminum cover for the bow that latches down so absolutely no water could get in there, meaning I don't trust a canvas top over it, or get some big drain holes put up there that will really drain the front in seconds from being full. Which also raises another question, is your cockpit self bailing? In my mind that's a must too, bilge pumps don't work fast enough.

Maybe I'm too conservative, but I really don't want to ever rely on my life jacket which I always wear. And as far as equipment I have an epirb, vhf waterproof radios and strobes clipped to each person's life jacket which they have to wear too, as well as boat vhf radio and dual GPS and radar. And I'm considering getting a satellite phone and an inflatable lifeboat.

That said, if you make some modifications and get some electronics, I think you'll be able to safely fish the calm days, but remember that in the summer nearly every day at noon on a clear day with small swell the north wind kicks up and if you run south to catch fish you're going to get absolutely pounded working your way back north, even in a salty boat sometimes you can't comfortably make more than 10 knots or even less against the wind swell that comes like clockwork most of the summer.

I don't mean to be too discouraging, but on the other hand I'd hate to see someone die out there because we weren't honest!

[SummitOne]

BIGALSURF – Thank you for your comments and information. It sounds like you are set up really well for salty excursions.

My boat is not self bailing because it is a river boat. It does have a high deck which sheds water very well (but makes for a rocky fishing platform on big water). My bow has huge holes one each side to allow water to escape. It drains pretty darn quick.

You are not discouraging at all. I think just about every post above had the same tone as yours.

[backlash442]

SummitOne, could you please explain what a "high deck" refers to? I've seen CW's before so think I know what you are talking about but want to be sure. There is no substitue for a selfbailing deck imo though. If you've ever taken green water over the bow you'll know what I mean.

[SummitOne]

Backlash442 – I have been in that green room, so I know what you mean. Basically what a high deck is the entire back of the boat has a raised deck that is flush with the gunwales. As you exit the cabin of the boat, your first step up is on the first platform which is over the fuel tank. The next step up is onto the platform that is flush with the gunwales. Around the deck in the rear is a railing that is 34” tall.

Whitewater boats that spend a lot of time in big class IV, V and even class VI six rapids (like on the snake river) usually have this platform. It is designed this way so when you take a large wave over the front the water will land on the deck and then wash off the back or edge of the boat, versus coming into the boat and filling it with water.

I agree that on the ocean a self bailing deck is the way to go. Plus it keeps the fish blood and guts out of the bilge pump. Some day when I spend enough time on the coast to justify a salty boat, it will definitely have a self bailing deck.

Copy and paste this link into your browser, this is a really good example of taking water over the bow in a river boat with a high deck.

http://www.hellscanyonmarine.com/hcm/player.asp?video=24_Rush_Granite_Creek_HellsCanyon Marine.wmv

[backlash442]

Cool video. Looks pretty scary to me.

From just looking at the video (no experience otherwise) it appears that while rough the rapids don't last very long. You can bury the bow but in a matter of a minute (?) you are out of the rough water. That doesn't happen on the ocean. It could be rough for miles and miles and hours and hours if you are far enough offshore. One reason I'm not a fan of open bow boats and yes I know there are several guys that do fish offshore in them.

[Tacklebuster]

Open bow, closed bow, self bailing decks, bilge pumps..... we can go on forever but the meat of the matter is what YOU feel comfortable doing. The only way to find that out is to simply.... go.

If I would have listened to the majority of the "open bow jet boat" discussions on this board and took them to heart, I would have never tasted what it was like. My first venture into the salt was with one of those over the Columbia River Bar in search of plentifull coho and to see the salt was right for me. Gotta tell ya it ruined me and when buying another boat... I still got an open bow.

Collect the information you need, pick a set of days that look to be good and go for it. Learn the patterns of the predictions, find out what kind of fuel consumption you burn out there in those conditions, and just start small. South of the Newport Jetty for some bottom dwellers. Then maybe WNW to you hit 52 degree water and start coho fishing, then maybe a pile run for Halibut... The horizon and beyond if you feel comfortable and gain the experience.

You got plenty of boat... My only concern would be the fuel consumption and how long I could play with that in mind. I used to run my 19 foot inboard jet out to the pile all the time and see many of them out there every year.

When you get the itch and it get's bad enough... the only way to make it go away is to scratch it a little.

[SummitOne]

When you get the itch and it get's bad enough... the only way to make it go away is to scratch it a little.[/quote]

LOL – Great info Tacklebuster, if its itchy, scratch it! I love it.

[WaterDog]

I also run my jetboat out into the big blue as well. While it's not perfect I can catch halibut one weekend and then run Hells Canyon the next. Just take your time and take little steps. You'll figure out what your limits are. Your tub will do fine. Lots of great advice on this thread. One of the best things I did was hitch rides for halibut and tuna before I went went out on my own. Good luck and see out there!

[backlash442]

Like I said pick your days you'll be fine. I realize you aren't going to be going out 60 miles on your first trip out.

On calm days I have seen bass boats fishing for salmon. Yes I really did see a ski boat out. Not a Ski Natique but one of the old style with a 454 Berkley Pump. I've seen inflatables but they were more seaworthy than the bass and ski boat. Heck my friends dad took a house boat out across an 18 mile channel to get to the islands in a boat better suited for Lake Powell. So anything is possible on the right day closed/open bow or not.

[Mark Mc]

You said:

Boat has an expanded tank and holds 120 gallons of fuel and burns 9-11 GPH.

The biggest surprise that the new-to-the-offshore-jetboat guy gets is....

The weather gets just a little too choppy/sloppy for him to zoom on plane (like you are used to).

So you "slog" at 7 or 8 knots......stern sucked way down. Every year or two, a guy in a jetboat runs out of fuel on the way back from the chicken ranch.

For offshore fishing, knowing what your fuel burn rate is at 7 / 8 knots is more important than knowing the burn rate at 25 knots.

[Spoonplugger]

Originally Posted by Mark Mc

For offshore fishing, knowing what your fuel burn rate is at 7 / 8 knots is more important than knowing the burn rate at 25 knots.

So true!

We have all probably experienced:

4 knots zig, 8 knots zag, 4 knots zig, 8 knots zag, 4 knots zig, 8 knots zag, 4 knots zig, 8 knots zag, 4 knots zig, 8 knots zag, 4 knots zig, 8 knots zag.

And have wondered if we are making any headway!

[SummitOne]

Great information. Seems that most of the bottom and salmon fishing is within 10 miles of shore, is that correct? A good strategy would be to keep a good log of the ocean conditions and then top off the tank after each trip. This would give an accurate overall fuel consumption.

I don't have a flow meter, but I have been in those 7-8 knot conditions on the Columbia. I should be able to use the above methodology to get a better idea.

[Paddler]

SummitOne, I started fishing the ocean about 8 years ago in a walleye boat. Not a tournament boat, just a 16' open skiff with a 50HP Mercury tiller. My wife would get nervous in the larger swells, which was understandable as she sat up front and felt a bit exposed. On the way out to the rockpile, against the swell, as she looked up at a wall of water from the bottom of a trough, she would often say, "Woah". Trying to hurry, exceeding 9 knots, was ill-advised, but riding the swells back in at 20 knots was routine.

My electronics consisted of a hand held Garmin 12, a handheld Humminbird VHF, and a Lowrance X-16 paper graph. I didn't often venture more than 12 miles offshore, but on a particularly flat day we ran up to the Umatilla Reef, about 20 miles up from La Push. Didn't have a fuel flow meter, and would fish 2-3 days before topping off my 22 gallon tank. I have many happy memories, and we boated lots of salmon in that boat.

Some would criticize this approach. But we never had an incidence, accident, nor was there a bar to worry about. I now have one of those "deadly" recessed bow boats, without self-bailing decks no less. It has tuna blood on it, and hopefully will have more this year

Choose your days, stay alert, and have fun. Your current boat should serve you well for the present. Until you catch tuna, and understand you need more range, more room for coolers, more rods, more lures, a prop or two, etc. This seemingly innocent trip to the ocean could cost you lots of money.

[Tacklebuster]

Get a fuel flow meter and in your log, keep track of fuel burned during the conditions you faced. Like I said before, I think your main issue chasing fish 30 plus miles offshore is your fuel capacity. I only burn 21 to 25 gallons going to the ranch but I have an outboard. I once burned 41 gallons in my jet boat at the ranch. Then on another trip I burned a little less and on one trip, I burned close to 60. You just never know what's gonna happen out there condition wise. The worst thing about your boat is the fact that you will be plowing water if it get's bad and that is where your gonna burn the most fuel. 9 to 11 GPH will not hold true in a 6 to 8 hour trip out on the ocean on most days. Though I can remember a couple where I was running full throttle in my jet boat most of the day.

You got plenty of fuel for bottom fishing and running out to the pile. Start there and work your way up. A fuel Flow meter will be essential for you. You can tell what your burning, how much you have left and how the conditions are effecting you. Cheap insurance my friend.

There are alot of jet boats out there, It will make you feel better when you see that but you just gotta get some experience and know how. I tell ya.... There are times out Tuna fishing where I just try and look around to find a smaller boat than mine. When I finally do, that makes me feel better LOL!

[SummitOne]

I think this ocean fishing could get really expensive. I would be hard pressed to give up river fishing, which means two boats (well three including the ski boat). If I lived closer to the ocean, or was retired, maybe I could justify that salty boat.

There is a 31' Maxweld Maxcat for sale here in Bend, it's only $249,000. Do you think I could run that up the John Day steelhead fishing?

[WaterDog]

The fuel thing is a big deal in our boats. I've got a floscan in mine and it's worth it's weight in gold. A trip to the rock pile on a 2 and 4+ day is 38 to 42 gallons. It's a slow ride at 8 to 9 knots. It's tough to keep the boat on top without beating yourself death. I've found that you have to really drive it, on and off the throttle, and then you can make some time. Your going find a few holes to crash into tho.