Sierra Club Steps Up For Hunters and Fishers

[freespool]

The Sierra Club is fighting for our rights to hunt and angle. This is good news for sportsmen, the Sierra Club is a very powerful goal oriented organization, with many successful battles to their credit.


http://sierraclub.org/huntingfishing/




salmon hugger

[Limbhanger]

What is their position regarding the predator issue here in Oregon?
More specifically, Wolf and Cougar management......

I have heard unfavorable things, but am very interested to hear what you know.

[Salmo trutta]

Sierra Club Oregon Chapter is no friend of hunters.

The National SC needs to rein these folks in.

[LanceinOregon]

Originally Posted by freespool

The Sierra Club is fighting for our rights to hunt and angle. This is good news for sportsmen, the Sierra Club is a very powerful goal oriented organization, with many successful battles to their credit.

http://sierraclub.org/huntingfishing/

salmon hugger

Like all lobbying organizations, they have their own political agenda that they are pursuing with the government and public. And they thus put out propaganda like this, to make themselves look good, and appear to not be at odds with fishing and hunting.

I don't consider their efforts to keep wolves protected in Idaho to be hunter friendly. Nor do I consider their efforts to get Prairie Dogs on the Endangered Species List hunter friendly either.

And we have had other previous debates over the wisdom of turning more and more of America's land into Wilderness Designation, which the Sierra Club firmly supports. And I do not consider that to be hunter friendly either.

So yes, it is possible to make the Sierra Club appear to be the friends of hunters. But it is all just a political spin job. And people need to keep that in mind when they look at their propaganda on the website that you refer to. It is totally self-serving, and certainly quite biased in nature.

Lance

[Limbhanger]

Here, read their position on sport hunting that I copied from their website.......

What does periodic mean.....looks shady to me......

Sierra Club's Policy On Sport Hunting & Fishing
Wildlife and Native Plant Management, Sport Hunting And Fishing - Wildlife and native plant management should emphasize maintenance and restoration of healthy, viable native plant and animal populations, their habitats, and ecological processes. Acceptable management approaches include both regulated periodic hunting and fishing when based on sufficient scientifically valid biological data and when consistent with all other management purposes and when necessary total protection of particular species or populations.
Because national parks are set aside for the preservation of natural landscapes and wildlife, the Sierra Club is opposed to sport hunting in national parks.
— Adopted by the Sierra Club Board of Directors, December 10-11, 1994.

[freespool]

Well I guess I feel the same about the NRA and their anti conservation stance.
How can you be a friend of hunters and be anti conservation?



salmon hugger

[BlacktailBowhunter]

I guess it depends on the SC chapter, because here is what they have to say about the ODFW sponsored wolf bill, I would not say that this is hunter friendly:
http://www.oregon.sierraclub.org/tracker/HB%202295.html

If they were on our side, why would they be fighting against the ODFW on such a crytical matter.

[LanceinOregon]

Originally Posted by freespool

Well I guess I feel the same about the NRA and their anti conservation stance.
How can you be a friend of hunters and be anti conservation?

salmon hugger

This all depends on how one defines conservation.

Lance

[Limbhanger]

Just what I thought from the beginning.......they are wolves in sheeps clothing.
Freespool, you will be hunting and fishing longer with the NRA on your side than these guys. You dont have to agree with everything the NRA does, but they are the ones standing up for you when it counts.

[Limbhanger]

Originally Posted by Limbhanger

What is their position regarding the predator issue here in Oregon?
More specifically, Wolf and Cougar management......

I have heard unfavorable things, but am very interested to hear what you know.

What I was referring to here is that they have the same position as HSUS and PETA regarding to predator management in OUR state. I just wanted to see if you knew that when you were telling us how much they do for hunters and fishermen.

[HOGGEMIN]

Originally Posted by BlacktailBowhunter

I guess it depends on the SC chapter, because here is what they have to say about the ODFW sponsored wolf bill, I would not say that this is hunter friendly:
http://www.oregon.sierraclub.org/tracker/HB%202295.html

If they were on our side, why would they be fighting against the ODFW on such a crytical matter.

[BlacktailBowhunter]

Originally Posted by freespool

The Sierra Club is fighting for our rights to hunt and angle.
salmon hugger

I don't know who told you that, but that is a out and out lie.

The Sierra Club is being deceptive, just like HSUS and their name.

The Sierra Club is only for MANAGEMENT HUNTING, they don't believe in SPORT HUNTING only MANAGEMENT HUNTING in the case where animals are starving to death.

There is a huge difference between those 2 types of hunting. In addition, they do not support ODFW and other State Wildlife Agencies in their efforts to manage over populated State Parks, even when the animals are over populated and dying.

Read what Limbhanger posted on SC policy, substantiates my position precisely.

[Salmo trutta]

Originally Posted by LanceinOregon

This all depends on how one defines conservation.

Lance

There is only one definition of "conservation" and that is the one by the father of modern conservation Aldo Leopold:

Conservation is a state of harmony between men and land. By land is meant all of the things on, over, or in the earth. Harmony with land is like harmony with a friend; you cannot cherish his right hand and chop off his left. That is to say, you cannot love game and hate predators; you cannot conserve the waters and waste the ranges; you cannot build the forest and mine the farm. The land is one organism. Its parts, like our own parts, compete with each other and co-operate with each other. The competitions are as much a part of the inner workings as the co-operations. You can regulate them—cautiously—but not abolish them.
The outstanding scientific discovery of the twentieth century is not television, or radio, but rather the complexity of the land organism. Only those who know the most about it can appreciate how little we know about it. The last word in ignorance is the man who says of an animal or plant: "What good is it?" If the land mechanism as a whole is good, then every part is good, whether we understand it or not. If the biota, in the course of aeons, has built something we like but do not understand, then who but a fool would discard seemingly useless parts? To keep every cog and wheel is the first precaution of intelligent tinkering.

[Flat Lander]

http://www.mailtribune.com/archive/2...ar-bill-dj.htm


The wildlife chair of the Sierra Club, Sally Mackler of Jacksonville, said she was "outraged" at the proposals. This is nothing more than the sports hunting lobby trying to restore hound hunting and bear baiting, despite Measure 18 which voters have passed on twice," she said. "It is reckless, extreme and way over the top."


The Sierra club does a lot of good but they do too much harm in my opinion. I won't support 'em

[Salmo trutta]

Yep she is a real work of art.:frown:

[Limbhanger]

The responses here and show of unity almost brings a tear to my eye...

Good job everyone!!

[The_Duck_Master]

Originally Posted by freespool

How can you be a friend of hunters and be anti conservation?
salmon hugger

Because we're going to lose the priviledge to hunt long before we lose the land to hunt on. If only 20% of their members buy hunting licenses those hunters will become expendable when push comes to shove.

duck killer

[BrianMaguire]

Originally Posted by freespool

The Sierra Club is fighting for our rights to hunt and angle. This is good news for sportsmen, the Sierra Club is a very powerful goal oriented organization, with many successful battles to their credit.
http://sierraclub.org/huntingfishing/
salmon hugger

Its a step in the right direction which is a good thing. Their board was almost taken over by the GreenPeace founder and his ilk. These are the type of people who would rather see all humans die than hurt an animal. They have done good work but are about as freakish as those that want to turn the entire planet into thier cash register.

Personally, until the national organization can actually exerpt some control over local chapters (loons like Sally Mackler - convicted HSUS activist), the national activities are not swaying me into putting them in the friend category any more than Oregon Cattleman's or AFRC.

[oregonmuley]

Well I don't know that much about the Sierra Club but I really doubt they want us out hunting cute little animals like bears and bambi. They do seem to be connected with HSUS at times. Anyway, I guess I would ask, anyone on this board a member of the Sierra Club? If so maybe they could educate us on how they want to help us hunters?? I prefer supporting local associations that are hunting related.

[Snakebite]

http://www.lightparty.com/Economic/EnvMovement.html

[bajadan2000]

Originally Posted by Salmo trutta

There is only one definition of "conservation" and that is the one by the father of modern conservation Aldo Leopold:

That is to say, you cannot love game and hate predators; .

Sorry for this Salmo, not picking on you, only trying to make a point. Even Aldo Lepold in one famous episode, writes of killing a female wolf early in his career as a forest ranger.

Funny how the same issue can be used to mean different things by leaving parts of the story out, just as in the Sierra Club message.

[Salmo trutta]

Originally Posted by bajadan2000

Sorry for this Salmo, not picking on you, only trying to make a point. Even Aldo Lepold in one famous episode, writes of killing a female wolf early in his career as a forest ranger.

Funny how the same issue can be used to mean different things by leaving parts of the story out, just as in the Sierra Club message.

Well Dan no one said anything about a wolf killing. It was the conservation definition I was after. But if you insist here is his recount of the wolf killing.... BTW I think every hunter should read Leopolds Sand County Almanac. I think it should be required reading for anyone taking a hunter education class.

So here is the wolf killing Dan.....

Killing the Wolf

[....] We were eating lunch on a high rimrock, at the foot of which a turbulent river elbowed its way. We saw what we thought was a doe fording the torrent, her breast awash in white water. When she climbed the bank toward us and shook out her tail, we realized our error: it was a wolf. A half-dozen others, evidently grown pups, sprang from the willows and all joined in a welcoming melee of wagging tails and playful maulings. What was literally a pile of wolves writhed and tumbled in the center of an open flat at the foot of our rimrock.
In those days we had never heard of passing up a chance to kill a wolf. In a second we were pumping lead into the pack, but with more excitement than accuracy; how to aim a steep downhill shot is always confusing. When our rifles were empty, the old wolf was down, and a pup was dragging a leg into impassable side-rocks.
We reached the old wolf in time to watch a fierce green fire dying in her eyes. I realized then, and have known ever since, that there was something new to me in those eyes—something known only to her and to the mountain. I was young then, and full of trigger-itch; I thought that because fewer wolves meant more deer, that no wolves would mean hunters' paradise. But after seeing the green fire die, I sensed that neither the wolf nor the mountain agreed with such a view.

[BlacktailBowhunter]

Originally Posted by BrianMaguire

Its a step in the right direction which is a good thing. Their board was almost taken over by the GreenPeace founder and his ilk. These are the type of people who would rather see all humans die than hurt an animal. They have done good work but are about as freakish as those that want to turn the entire planet into thier cash register.

Personally, until the national organization can actually exerpt some control over local chapters (loons like Sally Mackler - convicted HSUS activist), the national activities are not swaying me into putting them in the friend category any more than Oregon Cattleman's or AFRC.

Brian,

You are masterful in conveying your point. Well said

[pintail]

Sierra Club's Policy On Sport Hunting & Fishing
----- Acceptable management approaches include both regulated periodic hunting and fishing when based on sufficient scientifically valid biological data and when consistent with all other management purposes and when necessary total protection of particular species or populations. -----
— Adopted by the Sierra Club Board of Directors, December 10-11, 1994.[/quote]

Periodic does not necessarily mean yearly. Just how much data is sufficient and who decides what is valid??? Looks like someone is trying to project an image that they have no intention of supporting.

[Washington Hunter]

Some of you guys are sure picky. You'd have to at least agree that the Sierra Club does more for hunting/fishing than PETA or the HSUS. The Sierra Club does do a lot of good in protecting wildlife habitat so they can't be all bad. And they're not out there taking a stand against hunting like some other groups. Doesn't mean I'll be giving them any donations, but I don't think sportsmen should be so hard on the Sierra Club. There may be individuals who are members of the Sierra Club who are anti-hunting, but the Sierra Club itself is not an anti-hunting organization.

[Bait Bucket]

Pintail, I love your avatar!

[bajadan2000]

Here is a little history on the Sierra Club. Even their board of directors can not agree on the direction of the organization.


by Olivia Lane
April 19, 2006 3:26pm
Paul Watson resigned from the Sierra Club board of national directors on Monday (4/17) in protest of the organization's promotion of hunting as a form of environmental conservation. Last year Watson protested the Sierra Club's posting of pictures of its leaders posing with their trophy kills,




Published on Thursday, June 15, 2000 resignation of David Brower from the board of the Sierra Club
Brower joined the club in 1933, was its first executive director in the 1950s and 1960s, and is ranked after John Muir and Teddy Roosevelt as a signal environmentalist. Yet on May 18 he resigned from the board "with no regret and a bit of desperation." He protested the board's support of federal government proposals that he felt would contravene the club's original mandate to protect the California Sierras.

[BlacktailBowhunter]

Originally Posted by Washington Hunter

Some of you guys are sure picky. You'd have to at least agree that the Sierra Club does more for hunting/fishing than PETA or the HSUS. The Sierra Club does do a lot of good in protecting wildlife habitat so they can't be all bad. And they're not out there taking a stand against hunting like some other groups. Doesn't mean I'll be giving them any donations, but I don't think sportsmen should be so hard on the Sierra Club. There may be individuals who are members of the Sierra Club who are anti-hunting, but the Sierra Club itself is not an anti-hunting organization.

I am very picky when it comes to my rights. Basically, the Sierra club is fighting our hunting legislation. PLEASE READ THIS:
http://www.mailtribune.com/archive/2...ar-bill-dj.htm

[Washington Hunter]

Thanks for the article. You're right. Too bad they can't stay out of hunting issues.

[freespool]

The really funny part is hunters are killing more cougars now without hounds, than they did prior to Measure 18 with hounds, go figure.
If hunters are to survive as a species, they need to loose the predaphobe attitude, which only serves to alienate them from the public mainstream.
Trying to manipulate logging practices so as to give hunters the advantage, is just plain thoughtless, nonhunters just do not think this way.



salmon hugger

[Blue Tip Spinner]

Originally Posted by freespool

The really funny part is hunters are killing more cougars now without hounds, than they did prior to Measure 18 with hounds, go figure.
If hunters are to survive as a species, they need to loose the predaphobe attitude, which only serves to alienate them from the public mainstream.
Trying to manipulate logging practices so as to give hunters the advantage, is just plain thoughtless, nonhunters just do not think this way.



salmon hugger

sorry FS, but that's because we have more cougars around because of Measure 18. we also have less deer AND elk, ask some of your buddies about that and i guarantee you that they will agree with me. ( ) Measure 18 did nothing but take away an effective way of controlling the numbers of cougars and bears. which means hunters are now seeing way more of them in the field than before. most of us see a cougar now and try to shoot it because it is a predator with no regret if it is a male or female. that isn't the way it was when you could hunt with hounds. they picked which one they wanted and HARVESTED that animal. now there are more than ever before (that i can remember) and the other game animals are paying for what the city folk were dooped into believing by a bunch of bambi huggers.

[Limbhanger]

Originally Posted by freespool

The really funny part is hunters are killing more cougars now without hounds, than they did prior to Measure 18 with hounds, go figure.
If hunters are to survive as a species, they need to loose the predaphobe attitude, which only serves to alienate them from the public mainstream.
Trying to manipulate logging practices so as to give hunters the advantage, is just plain thoughtless, nonhunters just do not think this way.salmon hugger

Freespool, show us the data. Also, please post up the units where management harvest objectives have been met. We are all open minded to fact, not emotion which is what good wildlife management is based on. Just present it to us and we will take a look.

[freespool]

Originally Posted by Limbhanger

Freespool, show us the data. Also, please post up the units where management harvest objectives have been met. We are all open minded to fact, not emotion which is what good wildlife management is based on. Just present it to us and we will take a look.

Limbhanger, here ya go.
http://www.registerguard.com/news/20...ection=opinion



Blue Tip Spinner, the reality is what the majority think, not what just the hunters think.
Being a predaphobe is deffiently running against the grain of the general population.
Hunters need to find some common ground with nonhunters, like for instance being conservation minded.
The Sierra Club membership is primarily nonhunting, yet they are reaching out to hunters, perhaps hunters, through education, could get the support of this very powerful action organization.
Better to have them as a friend, than a enemy.



salmon hugger

[Blue Tip Spinner]

Originally Posted by freespool

Limbhanger, here ya go.
http://www.registerguard.com/news/20...ection=opinion



Blue Tip Spinner, the reality is what the majority think, not what just the hunters think.
Being a predaphobe is deffiently running against the grain of the general population.
Hunters need to find some common ground with nonhunters, like for instance being conservation minded.
The Sierra Club membership is primarily nonhunting, yet they are reaching out to hunters, perhaps hunters, through education, could get the support of this very powerful action organization.
Better to have them as a friend, than a enemy.



salmon hugger

i see, so because the majority thinks that commercial nets are ok that we should join Salmon for all? is that what i just read what you wrote? the reality Freespool is that the Sierra Club is not in any way good for hunting. their idea is to get us in there then take it away. so once you get a good arguement for us to support them, then come back to this thread and we will go from there. you are not a hunter (which i KNOW for a fact) so you can't even speak for us or have any idea what we want. that would be like asking you what a netter thinks. i have not heard a single person mention that they have a phobia against predators, so lets get on the same plain here. you have to get out in the woods to have any idea what i am talking about. hunting isn't about killing predators or game mammals. hunting is something that some of us look to do to come to terms with nature in it's own world. it's like swimming in the river with the salmon. we do this not for the kill, but the experience. i have seen bear in their natural habitat, i have seen flashes of cougar in theirs as well. i have been in the middle of an elk herd with the herd bull just feet way bugling his head off. that is what hunting means and no organization WILL take that away from me.

i am stepping off my soap box now...

[baltz526]

the sierra club membership is mostly little old ladies that have no idea what they are donating money to. sierra club managers mine this base regularly with no moral restraint.

[Washington Hunter]

freespool, what do you think about the Nature Conservancy? They seem like a great conservation organization and I believe they do support hunting, and even allow hunting on many of their properties.

[freespool]

Originally Posted by Washington Hunter

freespool, what do you think about the Nature Conservancy? They seem like a great conservation organization and I believe they do support hunting, and even allow hunting on many of their properties.

I support the Nature Conservancey, they have saved many very environmentally significant pieces of land.


Blue Tip Spinner, please don't jump off the deep end, don't forget Oregon voters overwhelmingly supported a ban on gillnetting steelhead, back in the 70's.
Hunters can use all the help they can get right now, don't be to quick to judge any organization that wanbts to help.



salmon hugger

[Limbhanger]

I couldnt open the article for some reason, but I was looking for the ODFW numbers.

Anyway, I am not a predaphobe. That whole "phobe" thing sounds a little dramatic and emotional, much like something Rosie O'donnell or HSUS would say during their public testimony. I am very confidant that most of the guys here are not dramatic and emotional. I think having cougars around is great. We just know they need to be managed. The state wide cougar population when dogs and controlled hunting was available was around 3000. Now the population is estimated to be around 5000 or more. I disagree that we are harvesting more cats now than in the dog days. They certainly are not being harvested in specific units that need it the most. Guys are just killing them on happen stance every now and then.

[Salmo trutta]

I'd rather have hunters hi-jack the Sierra Club than the other way around....I wonder what would happen if 10,000 hunters joined the Oregon chapter of the Sierra Club then booted it's board of directors and their so called "conservation director" and then formed an alliance with OHA and turned it into a truely pro-hunting organization???.......................

Oh well what a pipe dream!!

[Washington Hunter]

Does this help?

[Blue Tip Spinner]

DID YOU READ WHAT THEIR GOALS ARE? they are only wanting to use us for PERIODIC harvest AFTER the scientific studies are done and blah, blah, blah. sorry, but i am not going to give a single dime to them and if i keep someone else from doing the same, then i will. i don't want to have someone that DOESN'T hunt tell me when i can and can't.

sorry, FS, but if the people voted against the gillnetting of steelhead in the 70s, why are they still doing it?

oh yea, deep end? what are you thinking coming to us here trying to get us to give money to someone that is trying to take our rights away? how about i give money to Salmon For All and go to the main board telling everyone they should do the same thing because i read their website? that is like saying we should join PETA or HSUS. allies right? spare me!!! sorry, but i won't and can't agree with you on any of these issues. i will send my money to DU, RMEF, NRA and the like where i KNOW where they stand on this.

ps. pm me.

[freespool]

Originally Posted by Blue Tip Spinner

DID YOU READ WHAT THEIR GOALS ARE? they are only wanting to use us for PERIODIC harvest AFTER the scientific studies are done and blah, blah, blah. sorry, but i am not going to give a single dime to them and if i keep someone else from doing the same, then i will. i don't want to have someone that DOESN'T hunt tell me when i can and can't.

sorry, FS, but if the people voted against the gillnetting of steelhead in the 70s, why are they still doing it?

oh yea, deep end? what are you thinking coming to us here trying to get us to give money to someone that is trying to take our rights away? how about i give money to Salmon For All and go to the main board telling everyone they should do the same thing because i read their website? that is like saying we should join PETA or HSUS. allies right? spare me!!! sorry, but i won't and can't agree with you on any of these issues. i will send my money to DU, RMEF, NRA and the like where i KNOW where they stand on this.

ps. pm me.

I'd rather have hunters hi-jack the Sierra Club than the other way around....I wonder what would happen if 10,000 hunters joined the Oregon chapter of the Sierra Club then booted it's board of directors and their so called "conservation director" and then formed an alliance with OHA and turned it into a truely pro-hunting organization???.......................

Exactly!


DID YOU READ WHAT THEIR GOALS ARE? they are only wanting to use us for PERIODIC harvest AFTER the scientific studies are done and blah, blah, blah. sorry, but i am not going to give a single dime to them and if i keep someone else from doing the same, then i will. i don't want to have someone that DOESN'T hunt tell me when i can and can't.


Isn't that what ODF&W is doing now?





ps What's with the Salmon For All and the Sierra Club analogy? Is SFA trying help sportfishers?



salmon hugger

[Washington Hunter]

Originally Posted by Blue Tip Spinner

DID YOU READ WHAT THEIR GOALS ARE? they are only wanting to use us for PERIODIC harvest AFTER the scientific studies are done and blah, blah, blah.

Periodic harvest just means seasonally, as in every fall just like it is, and "after scientific studies are done," well the ODFW does scientific studies every year to come up with the number of tags and the length of the seasons. So, from the Sierra Club's policies, I don't believe they are in any way an anti-hunting organization. Some of the members may be, but the Sierra Club itself is not.

[bajadan2000]

I am all for forming alliances and gaining more support for the pro-hunting issues, however, after looking at the Sierra Club site, not sure how this organization is doing anything other than merchandising their club to look like they have a larger base to attract new supporters.

All I see are people listed that are part of the Sierra club that also hunt. This would be like PETA listing the people in their organization that eat meat, then suggesting all meat eaters should support PETA.

I do not see any SC policies or activities that will help hunters or even explain the complicated hunting issues. Others have already shown were the SC is actively supporting the side of issues in Oregon that will further reduce hunting prospects, not increase them...

The sad truth is, with the declining availability of good habitat, increasing predator populations and legal issues, 15 years from now, not many of us will be hunting large game...

[The_Duck_Master]

Anyone know how many SC members there are in the Oregon group?

[Snakebite]

MY fear on the whole issue, begins with the fact that they were instrumental in halting timber harvest on public lands. This is wrong. Who are they going to pick on next? We have a sustainable resource, that the economy can benefit from, and in this day and age, can be done with fish and wildlife benefiting as well. There's much land locked up to timber harvst in the Siuslaw NF now, that is not useful habitat for deer and elk due to the monogenerational stand of timber. There's no diversity in the habitat there. Sure, spotted owls like big timber to nest in, but their prey species have proven to like a variety of seral stages to live in. Studies done in northern california, indicate that spotted owls do better in second growth habitat than old growth.

It's simple, more habitat diversity, more wildlife diversity and foraging opportunity. The Sierra club and John Muir had a good plan, but it is now a mainstream environmental group that prides itself more on membership, public awareness (of them) and does nothing to right past wrongs or really protect the environment.

[freespool]

Originally Posted by The_Duck_Master

Anyone know how many SC members there are in the Oregon group?

From their website, 21k members here in Oregon.
I was never aware they were a hunting advocacy group, until Jennie posted a link on the fishing page, hey it may be a red herring, but I think they are at least worth a look.
I think hunters are being unfairly portrayed in some media arenas, and anyone willing to help, deserves at least a chance.




salmon hugger