I’m sorry, but please, just a few more downrigger questions……

[SummitOne]

OK, I have done the Ifish search, read 20-25 of the threads pertaining to the subject, but still have a few questions that I would like “educated” answers to. So far I can not find info on the forum, so please bear with me as attempt to tap into the minds of the Salty Dogs! I am always amazed at the amount of knowledge that is shared here, it’s greatly appreciated!

I am getting ready to purchase two eclectic downriggers for my boat. I am looking at either the Scotty 1106 or the Cannon Mag10 HS. They will be used primarily for salmon fishing on the coast, and also for bull trout and kokanee occasionally.

From what I have read, most of you prefer the Scotty because of the fast retrieve, low amp draw and warranty. But what I have not read is comparing the new Cannon HS with 250 ft. per minute retrieve, and enough power for 20 lbs of lead. Also, the Cannon has the fixed positive ion control. Both have the extendable booms. It appears that Cannon has updated their electrical connection, which many of you say is a problem with the Scotty. But as far as I can tell, Scotty has a much better warranty than Cannon. Also, the Scotty is roughly $50 bucks cheaper. But then again, when you are getting ready to spend 1K on downriggers, 50 or 100 bucks really doesn’t play into the equation. I would just prefer to buy the right ones the first time.

So here are my questions:

Considering Cannon’s new model, putting in more in line with Scotty’s performance, would you still choose the Scotty over the Cannon?

Also, for those of you with experience with the “black box”, does it really catch more fish? I like the idea of going with the braided line to minimize the noise (hum) and drag.

Thank you for your patience on this subject and in advance for your input.

Paul

[Hoghunter]

I've used Cannons for year's. My current models are the Mag 20's which I purchased back in the 90's and they still run like a top.

If I was to go out today and buy new one's, I would again buy Cannon. Why, I think they're a more reliable and well built rigger. They use gears versus belts for the drive. Whenever I'm out fishing here or in Canada I always see guys messing with their Scotty to get it working.

Now that they're more evenly priced I think you'll see more Cannon's back in this market. The whole reason Scotty became so popular in my opinion was the price. For year's they were several hundred cheaper than a comparable Cannon.

I fish my Cannon's hard 12 months of the year and they just don't break. I do an annual maintenance where I take them apart and grease and clean and they work fine.

From what I've seen of the new Cannon's they're even better built than the one's I've got. That's my

[trollking]

My boat came with a Canon Mag10, and I fished that for a year. It was fine. I got caught up in the Scotty parade, and bought two used Scottys and sold my Canon.

The Scotty's have a learning curve! That said, I like them well enough. However, a few months back I was so ****** at them that I wanted to sell them and get Canons. I didn't , and I do like my Scotty's, but I think the line is getting murkier.

With the new ownership of Canon, I'm not sure what the support will be, but the previous support was hit or miss. You had to call Idaho, and really did talk to a person, and they treated me well, but I heard stories from friends of being quoted large $$ for repairs. I thought the ion control was a good thing, and bought a black box for my Scotty's, but have recently switched to braid so that's a moot point now. they say your boat has an electrical potential......I don't know if your gear has a electrical potential when you are fishing braid? It certainly doesn't come down the braid, so maybe not.

Scotty does have awesome support/repair/ etc. Canon remains to be seen.

The Canons are easy to use, that's for sure.

Although, I'm not sure if you CAN use braid on the Canons. Their autostop feature senses the current through the wire, and the motor stops when the ball breaks the surface.............so you are stuck with wire on Canons?

Scotty is going to braid, but it may be because they are p.o.'d at cheap knockoffs of their black box?

[5 Salt]

I am a Scotty guy but I am not sure it matters either way. I like the braided line of the riggers to eliminate hum and longer service life...also not need for crimping supplies to re-rig in the event you hang the bottom etc... You can load tons of braided on the rigger spool for simple re-rig if line is look a little worn - just cut the ball clip, strip off some line and palomar knot the clip back on.

One word of advise with Electrics - hard wire and save hassle with corroded plugs. Use min of 14guage wire for best performance.

[Onokai]

Scotty has a much better warranty than Cannon.-that says it all.

I have the mag 10s and they work slow-I have spent over 100$ on repairs which would not be the case with scotty. The new cannons you talk about are sweet but the warrenty is not LIFETIME as with Scotty.Wish I went scotty. PS cannons they do have a electric down.Mark

[pijon]

I have the scotty's with the 30 inch boom. Have had scotty's on all my boats. The electric "up" is plenty fast enough. Wish I had an electric "down" with a preset. Only cause it would be cool and I am gettin lazy.
Regardless of which brand, highly reccommend the rubber snubbers. They add some forgiveness to an otherwise zero stretch system.

[corrirod]

TrollKing, you're rignt. Those Scotty's are no good. I'm sure the Cannons are better. Wanna sell your Scotty's?

Can't speak for the Cannons because I've always had Scotty's and unless something dramatically changes those will be the ones I continue to use. I'm sure Cannons work just fine too but unless something goes terribly wrong with the Scotty's or the price and warranty get much better on the Cannons then I'll stick with Scotty.

[OuterLimits]

Cannons!!!

Many battles have been won by Cannons.....decisive in battle!!

I have the older Cannon Mag 20s with a 235' retrieve rate and also include an ION knob to adjust the voltage. No need to buy the black box here as they already come with it installed. My Cannons have been bullet proof, unlike the Scotty belt drive models.

I would buy Cannons again!!

[Maverick Maxcat]

First, if you use braid, the ion control doesn't matter. Are Cannons warranteed for 20# weights and braid? If so, great, but get it in writing. I like the freespool down. It gets down faster, which is very important when a school of silvers on the surface keeps taking lures ment for the kings 300' down. Scotty has been very good to me with parts and repairs---everything wears out! If the new Cannons can perform like Scotty they may be worth a try, but Scotty is a sure thing. I own 6 of the 1106's.....

[Draggin' Bait]

Personally, I've only owned Scotty downriggers. One electric, one manual. Minimal maintenance and I've been very happy with them. There is one last issue to look at. Some of the new fishfinders (I think from Lowrance) will interface directly with Canon downriggers to give some interesting options. So, if you think you might ever go to one of those units, that's a point for Canon.

[Sturgeon Tom]

I have the Cannon 1106. I bought one new almost 6 years ago. I have never had a problem with it.
I bought a second one off e-bay and it had a problem. (you know buyer beware) oh well.

I took the used one to Ollie's and they went through the whole thing replacing a couple things and gave it a real cleaning.
They said if I would treat it better then the previous owner it should be just fine. It has worked perfectly for 5 years.
The bottom line was the cost to me to fix a used downrigger. $0.00. That is a warranty I can live with.

As for black boxes I installed one on my last boat and there was a definite difference in catch rate as I would adjust it for the kind of fish I was trying to catch.
I have another one I am installing on the new ride.

[Tuna Dog]

I have been a Cannon Pro Staff for 15 years and I've ran charters with four Digi Trol IV's and they have held up to a great deal of abuse. In all these years I've only had two issues and they were quickly remedied.

I no longer Pro Staff for Cannon but I'm familiar with the new HS units.
As for the ION control...you will catch more fish in saltwater but not in freshwater and on tough days in the salt that might mean the difference between nothing or something.

With that said...most every boat throws off an electrical charge and you should check it...I'd be glad to elaborate more on that issue if you want to send a PM.

Draggin' bait mentioned interfacing them with a fish finder...Only the MAG20HS unit will do that and it's only to the new hummingbird.

And as far as line hum...somedays it does it and some days it doesn't.
Vibration in the water is not always a bad thing..

As far as the difference between Cannon and Scotty...they are both good units. I have fished with friends who have Scotty's and they work fine.

Good luck with whatever you choose...

[SummitOne]

Thank you, thank you! I am always at awe with the knowledge that you are willing to share. It is tough when you know little about a product, and one can read all the info on line, even talk with the guys selling them in the stores, but nothing beats the opinions of those actually using the products. Again, many thanks.

Two weeks ago, I would have bought the Cannon’s, but now I am not so sure. I am glad I consulted with you all prior to buying. As of this AM, here is where I am at:

Braid vs. steel – If using ion control in the salt increases my chances of catching fish, I will go with steel instead of braid. Maverick Maxcat – I am uncertain as to the Cannon’s and braid with 20 lbs. From what I have read, the previous models spool would split using the braid with heavy weight. Although, I do like the option of switching to braid at a later date if desired, so this may rule out the Cannon. As well as the auto stop which is a must, great point trollking!

Tuna Dog – Because the Cannon has a fixed ion control, do you know if you can still attach a black box that will allow the adjustment of the electrical field? Thank you for the PM offer, prior to heading out this summer I will take you up on that, specifically the electrical setting for the various species of salmon.

What I like about the Cannon’s – Compact design, ion control, smaller swivel base
What I like about the Scotty’s – Warranty, ability to go to braid if desired, free spool down

Seems like most of you that have Scotty’s are satisfied (with the exception of maybe trollking??) It seems the new Cannon’s are basically untested at this point, but in the past customer services and warranty work was an issue. It also appears than most of you would agree that either product is good and will get the job done.

Another question – sigh – I would estimate these units will be fished 25 days a year, 15 in the salt and 10 in fresh. I am good with equipment and take care of it. How frequent will repairs be needed?

I really though I was going to buy the Cannon’s, but if I had to decide this minute, I think I would buy the Scotty.

Thanks again Salty Dogs!

Paul

[cptdarel]

A controversial subject,wire vs braid you see with the standard downrigger wire with proper bonding of your boat and the proper application of zincs, you develop a + charge to your wire with an average of .6 of a volt, and attracts fish a KNOWN FACT. See the attached page and click on the bottom where it says black box booklet. It shows how you can set up your boat and don’t need a black box.

Now as far as the braided line! some guys like it, I myself will have nothing to do with it, as I understand with the braided lines your line voltage is NULL. Oh you will still catch fish, struggle or not, who knows. Hope this helps

http://www.scotty.com/marine/products/product/fishacc/blackbox/blackbox.html

[SummitOne]

Thanks cptdarel, what a great link, very informative. I got to admit though, as I started to read, the opening lines definitely caught my eye….” It has been proven that many species of fish have a strong sensitivity to electrical energy in the water. Salmon, trout and sharks are among these.” Yikes, SHARKS :shocked: ….my boat is only 23 feet and don’t great whites grow to over 20 feet! I am envisioning a scenario such as CATCH AND EAT posted, “when sharks attack” . Oh well, the risks we run to catch fish.

Actually, the PDF file “black box booklet” was awesome, and complicated. There is a lot more to running downriggers than I thought. It goes into great length about testing the electrical conductivity of the boat, and grounding system. My boat is aluminum, and I am uncertain that all the components are grounded as the book describes. How do you tell? Will the boat have a ground wire as the book describes?

One positive is that I do have lots of good zinc on the boat, and my kicker is electric start.

Its starting to look like buying the downrigger is the easy part, fishing them correctly while taking advantage of the ion field is complicated.

[Troller]

I cant give you a comparison, because I have only ever owned scottys. Had one stop working up in Port Hardy BC. The brake wouldnt hold anymore. Believe it or not their is a warranty authorized guy their had it fixed with 1 hour of taking it to him. No questions asked. No reciept , no nothing but it is a lifetime warranty. The only thing I didnt like is the connector on the end and the receptacle that comes with the scotty. After the second year of use I was having a problem with them loosing contact because they would slide out a little. That was also a issue because of the poor connection they would blow the inline fuse. Not having a main fuse panel, I would have to lay down and get behind the transom to reach the fuse. I solve the problem all together by getting rid of the stock scotty connectors. I purchased two waterproof seaworthy cigarette lighter plugs and receptacles. Now not only do I have a waterproof connection that has a rubber cover to keep the water out when not in use. My fuse is right at my finger tips in the end of the cigarette light plug. Just unscrew the tip and throw another one in. That would be the only mod I would do if I bought another scotty downrigger. They have given me aboluetly no cause to else where.

[cptdarel]

Originally Posted by SummitOne

Thanks cptdarel, what a great link, very informative. I got to admit though, as I started to read, the opening lines definitely caught my eye….” It has been proven that many species of fish have a strong sensitivity to electrical energy in the water. Salmon, trout and sharks are among these.” Yikes, SHARKS :shocked: ….my boat is only 23 feet and don’t great whites grow to over 20 feet! I am envisioning a scenario such as CATCH AND EAT posted, “when sharks attack” . Oh well, the risks we run to catch fish.

Actually, the PDF file “black box booklet” was awesome, and complicated. There is a lot more to running downriggers than I thought. It goes into great length about testing the electrical conductivity of the boat, and grounding system. My boat is aluminum, and I am uncertain that all the components are grounded as the book describes. How do you tell? Will the boat have a ground wire as the book describes?

One positive is that I do have lots of good zinc on the boat, and my kicker is electric start.

Its starting to look like buying the downrigger is the easy part, fishing them correctly while taking advantage of the ion field is complicated.

from BOATDOG whom pulled from Scotty

"Inspect the inside your hull. Look for a copper bonding wire running along the bottom of the hull, connecting all the underwater metal fittings-engine, fuel tanks, thru hulls, etc. Check that this wire is unbroken and has clean, tight connections. Check the connections with a voltmeter, by touching the positive lead to the fitting and the negative lead to the bonding wire. The meter should show a reading of .010 volts.

Aluminum boats with an outboard should be properly electrically grounded to the metal hull or bonding strap. An electric start outboard should also be grounded (connect the negative terminal of the battery to the boat hull).

Also test for continuity to the boat hull or bonding strap as well as the outboard motor. A #10 bonding wire should be installed from the negative terminal to the hull and to the outboard if there is no continuity."

[fish-on-bend]

One more vote for the Cannons. I have had a mini-mag for 4 years and like it but its SLOW. I just replaced the manual on the other side with a Mag5hs. Twice as fast as the old one, faster than the Scotty and a bulky boom to support a #20 weight (yes its in writing) and the ball stops at the water surface automatically........I love the new Cannons. The only down side is they changed the bases and I prefer the old bases, the new ones are not compatable with the old bases.

[Scaup]

FYI, Scotty's now come with the Marinco twist locking plug with a "watertight" cover for the socket. This is a step up from the old style plug.

[trollking]

OK Scotty, let's offer free plugs as upgrades for existing owners! . I haven't had problems with my plugs yet, but they are mounted under the gunnel, so out of the weather. I do recall that I had to buy a plug for one of my scotty's that came used without the plug, and they are not cheap!

[Tuna Dog]

SummitOne...yes you can attach a black box to the Cannon to adjust the charge...
As for the braid issue..The new Cannon Mag10HS has a stainless steel spool and can handle the braid..the standard models with the black spool will split.

Good luck with whichever way you go...

[SummitOne]

OK Salty Dogs…the more I research this, the more questions I have. I am beginning to think that fishing downriggers is on par with flying an airplane, technically speaking. Then again, I think I might be starting over analyze this .

I just returned from the sportsman’s show in PDX, tons of stuff to see. I stopped by both Cannon and Scotty, and asked the rep why I should by their brand over the other, here is what they said in summary (I should also note that neither rep bashed the other company, they were professional and stated they were both good units….. but it was more my getting them to pit one brand against another just to hear what they had to say ):

Cannon – because the new HS model has a faster retrieve then Scotty, it has the auto down feature and a better plug assembly that fights corrosion better. Other info – Cannon apparently has a lifetime warranty, just like Scotty. Tuna Dog – the rep had inquired with Cannon about braid and was still waiting for an answer, so your info is more current than theirs. The one negative I found out about the Mag10HS, the ion control is fixed, you can not adjust it through the downrigger itself, or use a black box with it.. The lower and upper models are adjustable, or you can use a black box, but not on the Mag10HS. The only way to adjust the ion is by adding or removing zinc from your boat.

Scotty – because their product is tried and tested, they have the freespool down (they see this as an advantage over Cannon), they have a belt drive…..again, they see this is an advantage. They said when you strip a gear in a Cannon, what do you do? In a Scotty, the belt replacement is 60 seconds or less, if it ever breaks. The have the feature where the boom can be lifted straight up 90 degrees to vertical. They stated their retrieve rate was faster than Cannon. I informed him that Cannon publishes a comparable retrieve rate, he kind of smiled and said, yes, that is what is “published”. Also, you can put multiple auto stops on the Scotty, where Cannon its just one. Other info – Scaup – you are correct, new connection, twist and lock. They say it’s much better. Also (Cannon may have this accessory too), they make this rubber boot with a small rope attached that slides over the downrigger cable that you can tie off to your boat. By placing more tension on it, you can reduce or minimize the hum/noise of the cable in the water. Pretty cool.

My conclusion – I think they are both great units, probably can’t go wrong with either. Although I understand the advantages of the freespool, I personally like the auto down of the Cannon, but this could just be because of my inexperience. But that said, I am going to buy the Scotty, because of the fixed ion control on the Cannon. From what has been said on this thread (and others), and talking with various fishing friends, the ion control is huge. With the Scotty you can use the black box witch will allow you to tune the system to the species of fish your are targeting. To get an extendable boom with adjustable ion control, you have the buy the Cannon Mag 20HS, at a list price of $899 for one.

I am going to buy these this weekend, so if I have really missed something, let me know.

I don’t think I can use their name on the thread, but there is a retail store that starts with Eng… , they will sell the Scotty 1106 for $420. Another store, Bob’s…said they would beat that price. This was at the sportsman’s show.

OK, now I think I am high jacking my own threat, can I do that? For those of you that have had the patience to read through this novel, and provide me with great info, here are some other deals I found.

At that same booth/store at the show, Eng…., they had inflatable Mustang life vests. They Deluxe Auto inflate was on sale for $165 and the Deluxe Manual inflate was $125. I purchased more than one so they sold them to me for $155 and $110 respectively. According to them, this is about $50-70 off list. Pretty good deal.

Also, at Worden’s factory booth they were selling their Flatfish (M2, T50, T55) for $3.49 each, and buy two and get one free, that’s $2.33 each, another good deal.

Sharkhide - $39.95, great deal.

Thank you again for all the info. I almost bought the Cannon’s, but unless I have really missed something, I am going to go buy two of those Scotty 1106’s!!

Wow, that was a long post .

Paul

[Troller]

I think you making a good choice, But both are good quality. Another thing with the scotty's is if you loose power. You can flip up the lid and use the wrench in their to crank them back up. Not sure how it would be done on the cannons.

[cptdarel]

All your home work paid off, on your way to bending your rod

[Paddler]

I have contacted Scotty and the parts are available for retrofitting the plugs. The new receptacle has a different, slighty larger hole pattern. I expressed the opinion that because the Hella was such a poor choice, they should make the parts available cheap. Waiting to hear back. Sorry for the hijack, but I thought other Scotty owners would be interested.

[SummitOne]

Paddler – This is great info, keep everyone updated. Cheap or free….maybe have them log on to Ifish and see all the support they have on this forum. That’s gotta be worth something.

[Paddler]

I talked to Paul at Scotty, very helpful but the news is not good. They've gone to a three prong twist-in plug made by Marinco. It's sounds like a smaller version of the common 220V plugs you see everywhere. He couldn't tell me that amp rating, but since the Scotty's pull 14A with a 20# ball, it's probably 30A rated. The part # is 2125, and they will be updating their webpage with a photo soon. The part was left out of the 2007 catalog.

The bad news is that the replacement set costs $28 per rigger. Also, they have just completed a mold for a 90 degree bracket, as apparently the new plug sticks straight out. Not good. I suggested they make the hole pattern for the bracket the same as the Hella, so you could just have a no-drill upgrade. It's not clear to me that this was taken into consideration.

Paul told me this is a proprietary part unique to Scotty, but there should be many choices in this type of plug. The Hella was a very poor choice for this application, but they're not going to help current owners much price wise with the new plugs. Maybe if a bunch of us contacted them, they'd rethink this a bit.

[pijon]

The 90 degree tilt up is kind of a big deal when around the dock or other boats. Gets the thing out of harms way. I used the standard plugs mounted under the gunnel and put an single fuse next to each plug so they are convenient but I haven't blown one yet. I use the plug in flat fuses and the holders I use form a seal around the fuse.
I am thinking that mounting plate may be a good place for another rod holder when trolling without the downriggers. Just gotta have someone weld something up if it hasn't been done already.