Ifish Hunting cliques?

[D3smartie]

So i was reading through the tred barta thread again and Amahnee brought up that most people only respond to their own little group, dont offer up help and in general dont respond to those that are not a part of "their" group.

This is the part I must disagree with on Ifish Hunting. The majority is a group of regulars that really only respond to there own little group. It has been discussed before and I'll bring it up again. There have been countless times that a person or post isn't given the time of day because they aren't part of the secret handshake club. This is only a guess and there may be other reasons why this happens? I've been around for here for three years and see it frequently. It has happened to me and it is bewildering at times. This place can be or seem pretty un-friendly and snobbish at times and one of the reasons I don't spend as time here as I once did.

I'm not trying to be a jerk or bash anyone here either, nor am I an emotional cripple or suffer from low self esteem, it's just an observation.

From my experience i would not say that this is true. Do others feel this way?

[wilsonriverfisher]

wow some people expect to much out of a forum

[Limbhanger]

All I know is if you were in mine you would have spelled it CLICK.....your way looks french...so I refuse to answer.....

[huntercgr]

I can only speak for myself, but as a newbie I have had nothing but good experiences here. Folks have been very helpful, and for the most part polite.

[Ni!]

I think all internet forums can be a little mystifying at times. Sometimes you just don't understand why some threads get all the attention and others drop from sight immediately. I don't know how to explain it, but I don't see much point in complaining about it. It is what it is.

For my part, I'm not a member of any clique (or click ), I just respond to the posts I think I can make a positive contribution to, and let others handle the rest.

[Orion]

I would not belong to any kind of club or "Clique", that would stoop so low as to have me as a member....

Orion

[steelheadslayer]

D3, I've noticed a little bit of the same thing. I only post when I think I have something to offer as far as advice or knowledge about whatever is being asked about. Cliques are too 'High School' for me, so I try and avoid em.

[waterfowlin101]

Here's anorther thing some folks may not have stopped and realized....

People can pm each other

Maybe you think someone is getting ignored or that a post gets no attention, but maybe it's all going on behind the scenes in an attempt to keep YOU out!!

So think about it a bit...maybe you suspect you are in the know...but you really only hear about the surface stuff .....or maybe you think some guy is not in a clique....but he really knows way more than you because of the secret life of the private message....

Just a thought....enjoy your day


and to stay on topic for the forum (I have been in trouble a bit lately on ifish)......Hunting Hunting....I love hunting!!

Jon

[Beeatease]

I haven't noticed any Cliques....I comment when I think I have something to offer or something I thought might be funny (not everyone agrees with this)

I stay out of the "opinion" threads because no matter what I say someone has a different view......which I respect but it's an "opinion"....

[SImudBogger]

I just started using the forum in november, and let me tell you i have learned A TON from the ifish guys. from tips and tricks, warnings about talking about a certain place too much, open seat invites etc. This is a great place where hunters and fishermen/women can unite.

What 101 says is true. A lot of times someone will send someone a PM instead of posting on a public forum. usually in a case where it's neccesary to be discreet, or if they want to get a little off subject and not "hijack" the post.

aside from from someone telling you there secret hunting/fishing spot, i'm pretty confident that a guy would tell you just about anything you wanted to about hunting/fishing on here. In the process you're going to be helping a few other guys who have the same question but don't ask.

just my

[MarshBum]

I commented on this in the Barta thread. I don't see it.

Perhaps this has to do with two things; first, us bird guys don't notice it because we all pretty much respond to every bird post out there. Even EH gets responses. Even the guy asking the same question for the billionth time about Sauvie. Now the big game fellers... well, I hear it told that they are pretty clicky (I have no idea, I'm just fun'n).

Second is that people get some pride mixed up in their forum posts. Just because you don't get 20,000 responses doesn't mean you are mean person, you smell, and are generally disagreeable in mixed company. No, it just means that on that given day, people moved pass your thread for what ever reason. It's not about you... well at least not all the time.

If I've offended anyone... I'm sorry, but seriously, this is the internet for crying out loud.

Geoff

[oregoncritters12]

I don't know if i would call them a "clique," but i would say there are people on here who mainly comment on the topics they're interested in. Personally, i like reading the big game, shed hunting, trailcam stuff...Others like reading the waterfowl stuff. It's all a matter of personal preference and should be...I've put posts up that have recieved a ton of attention and others that have only been looked at...It's hard for me to believe a person couldn't get excited about shed antlers ....It's also hard to believe how excited people get about other issues...Just what you're into.....

[gottafish]

Who cares Is it elk season yet??? At least I can feed the ducks again now what was that hand shake to get the good steelhead tips.??? sadly this is 20 times worse on the fishing board. Ive been threated by people for telling someone where the fish were biting as a result I almost never post on that side of the board. in fact I find myself spending a lot more time on other boards these days. Im sure the Mods are great full.

[jokester]

Yeah, it happens just like anywhere else. But most people that i've met on here are more than willing to help you out with info or ideas I've met some really cool people on here that today I call them my friends because of IFISH!

Originally Posted by steelheadslayer

D3, I've noticed a little bit of the same thing. I only post when I think I have something to offer as far as advice or knowledge about whatever is being asked about. Cliques are too 'High School' for me, so I try and avoid em.

Well crap! And all this time I thought I was in your clique, Earl! Geez...talk about a shot below the belt!

-jokester

[Tilla]

I think it is part of human nature and I don't think this place is any different that anywhere else in the world. You have to have the same social skills as you would require anyplace you go. This place has all the same clowns you'd wanna meet.

[Limbhanger]

In all seriousness, Ifish as a whole is a clique and that is why I joined up. A bunch of people that like to hunt and fish. If you are lucky you might even get to make a few friends along the way.

[Swamp Puppy]

boy..if that is true i sure haven't seen it. yeah, some people will talk openly to others that they hunt with regularly and may or may not be willing to openly discuss the exact gps locations of their hunting spots..but that seems like just plain common sense to me. certainly not a clique or a snobbish response.

just look at the number of open seat invites posted here during the season to hook up with other ifishers for hunts.

come to DA meeting and meet some people face to face. i've seen lots of hunts set up here.

or..you can lurk in the shadows and make random obscure requests and then feel slighted because no one came to your house, knocked on your door, and drug you out kicking and screaming to show you their secret honey holes.

i mean sure. people have their "hunting partners"..guys they have hunted with for years and will continue to do so for years to come. get involved, meet some people, and maybe you'll find a lifelong hunting partner yourself.

to quote an old movie..."Engage Maverick!! damn you..Engage!!"

[scottishsetter]

"Half don't know me; and the other half hate me."

I like "I I e s y???" is it elk season yet. Gotta get back to my book, which hunts to put in for ummm.

[Threemuch]

I definitely see it. But I don't think it is any kind of exclusivity. It is just a bunch of good old boys banging away on their comfuser keys. You can't expect them to treat complete stranger the same way they treat their hunting buddies.

I know I post more readily and with more familiarity with someone I have met and even more so with someone I have hunted with, and even more so with someone I have a long term friendship with.

I can see how an outsider might see this as some kind of "in" crowd, and possibly even resent it a bit.

Only one way to fix it...make an effort to actually meet some of the folks on the board. I haven't ever seen or felt any exclusivity in person with any of the folks I have met on iFish.

I think this happens pretty easily with the fishing crowd, waterfowlers, and even predator hunters, because we go so often and open seats are not unusual. Plus we even have little get togethers (I think the salty dogs have some small event coming up.) The big game game is a little different, I think. Spots are very closely guarded, competition is fierce, open seats for strangers are nearly unheard of. Fortunately there is lots of crossover to fill in those gaps.

I know I have made a few lifelong friends, as well as numerous fishing buddies and hunting partners off the various iFish forums.

[Abalone]

In general it's best not to get too emotional about IFISH. Take it for what it is.

I have met some very informative people on this Forum. Some in person and they have all been nice folks willing to share.

That's my story and I am sticking with it.

[Chesapeake]

I havent seen the click or clique thing at all. I think people are just confusing familiarity and friendship with click behavior.

What I have found from TA (tuna) and DA (ducks, Ive never bean to one YET!) and just meeting people on the board is that if people know you they tend to be more open with you.

This is not a new concept in human behavior.

It's realy quite simple, if you want to feel like everyone spends every waking minute just waiting to respond to your post, then take some open seats, go to some meetings, and just meet some of the guys.

Then they may just share thier deepest secrets about hunting and fishing. A few beers never hurt iether!

But I bet you find they are just a bunch of regular guys that love to hunt and fish.

Over the years I have met no less than 10 people from internet chat boards. They all proved to be predators and mass murderers, of fish and fowl!

They were and are all good people and a few have become great friends!

[Headhunter]

Ifish like any online community is a microcosm of the real world. Some people will get along, some not so much. The major differences between ifish & real world are that we tend to all share the same passions in hunting & fishing, and can choose to be anonymous and hide behind out computer or not.

By joining online groups that meet in person like the Salty Dogs "TA" group or the hunting boards "DA" group, you can break down the anonymity and connect as hunters or fishermen/fisherwomen. By meeting in person, I think it allows you to build stronger relationships and connect better.

I would say that yes there are cliques just like the real world. Personally I have felt like I was in one and hunted with a few guys and then not in it anymore. It's just the way it goes sometimes...online or in real life. But I think what we see a lot of is guys with good relationships tend to share and banter with folks they are comfortable with, that they know well, and if you are new or on the outside, it can be hard to get above the noise. I think Swamp Puppy said it best…Engage Maverick!

[Hunt'nFish]

Originally Posted by Swamp Puppy

boy..if that is true i sure haven't seen it. yeah, some people will talk openly to others that they hunt with regularly and may or may not be willing to openly discuss the exact gps locations of their hunting spots..but that seems like just plain common sense to me. certainly not a clique or a snobbish response.

just look at the number of open seat invites posted here during the season to hook up with other ifishers for hunts.

come to DA meeting and meet some people face to face. i've seen lots of hunts set up here.

or..you can lurk in the shadows and make random obscure requests and then feel slighted because no one came to your house, knocked on your door, and drug you out kicking and screaming to show you their secret honey holes.

i mean sure. people have their "hunting partners"..guys they have hunted with for years and will continue to do so for years to come. get involved, meet some people, and maybe you'll find a lifelong hunting partner yourself.

to quote an old movie..."Engage Maverick!! damn you..Engage!!"

I totally agree with Swamp Puppy.
This is a forum, everyone's just a stranger until ya meet, share a pitcher, or hunt together.
I must say I used to think I WAS THE GREATEST HUNTER THAT EVER WALKED THE FOREST. That was until I came here and realized that their are others that know more than I, are more deticated and more successful. So I'll talk about what I know and learn what I don't... but I think on the whole I have benefited greatly.

After moving here from E.Oregon, I used to recuit my hunting partners and teach them what I know. Here, I can tag up with other hunters that are operating at my level and above. And now my hunting is getting better as I benefit from your tips, tricks and knowledge.

Kinda like the ol saying.....Golf with good golfers and you'll golf better. Same thing here. Man I have learned lots I wouldn't have otherwise. I know a fair bit about guns, reloading and big game.....but waterfowl over decoys? Didn't know sqaut...still don't, and theirs much to learn. But my hunting has gotten better & better as a result of tagging up w/ my Ifish brothers. Blacktail is another area, I know just enough to think I know everything. But I've learned a handful of things from others here that I didn't know or realize. Again I think my blacktail knowledge has benefited.

Well here I go again, rambling...
Take care, get to know some folks on here and come in from the shadows of your keyboard.
We don't bite.
Hunt'nFish

[ehunter]

Also a lot if us only respond to certain things for example I am not a duck hunter I still read some of their post or troll Some times I don't have a lot of time. Some of the post are over my head gun info but I still read it and learn. I think this forum is great because you can ask a question and get some good answers. Some of us are not as articulate(sp) as others.

My interest is primarily big game hunting so I tend to follow those post closer. I admit that some post depending on if I know who posted them I am more interested, there is some really good advice on here from some really expereinced people and It has opened my eyes in a lot of ways.....

[Abalone]

I am not part of any Clique, everbody just ignores me.......

[cityfisher]

Originally Posted by Abalone

I am not part of any Clique, everbody just ignores me.......

What did he say? HUH??

[JustCallMeDave]

The infraction system was implemented as an easier way for the moderation staff of Ifish to keep track of when a person is ready for a vacation from Ifish. The overwhelming majority of people on Ifish will never run into the infraction system personally, and a large percentage of those that do will never have to worry about getting enough points over a short period of time to be invited to take a break. It's those who work hard at being in that small fraction (which are the same folks that make up the bulk of the work for the mods here) that make the infraction system necessary.

[Keeper]

Cliques? Clicks?

I just assumed you guys ignored me cause I was female

[Sea Jypzee]

Originally Posted by Keeper

Cliques? Clicks?

I just assumed you guys ignored me cause I was female

As I was reading and catching up on this thread, this was my very thoughts.

Yeah, what SHE said.

[BrianMaguire]

People will respond to what they are interested in so I would not take it personally if no one responds. I can't say that I have ever responded to a duck or goose thread and don't even read most of them. I don't waterfowl hunt, but if a turkey or elk thread comes up I read them all and if I have something worthwhile I will read it and respond. There is a tendency, because of the anonymity for people to type things they would not say in person, its an internet thing and it is not unique to ifish but it is fairly uncommon. There is probably someone writing a doctoral dissertation about it. I equate it to listening to Jim Rome (sports radio), it can be abrasive at first but once you learn what is normal you like it.

There are a tons of threads that everyone reads and enjoys and just because someone does not respond does not mean that others did not find some joy in it and the post was a waste of time for the author. I have learned quite a bit since joining. If you have something that you believe is worth your time to share please do so, it probably is worth your time.

As for cliques? I think they revolve around interests, not people for the most part. Duck hunting, goose hunting, then there are band collectors, archery hunting, rifle hunting, upland bird, predator hunters, varmint guys, shooting in general (some very good knowledge abounds), the great trailcams, always fun to read success stories and even good failure threads, pro conservation, anti conservation, don't start wolf threads, and a host of other interests.

[RODACTION]

I have not noticed that at all, I really never offer up any helpful information, but I have recieved many helpful PM's and read alot of really good stuff.

I think there is alot of guys on this board who know eachother, and hunt together. Maybe this is where that idea is comming from as some refere to eachother on a first name basis.

I have posted simple "help" stuff, from dog food, to bullets, and I have always got help from somebody. This is a great board.


If there is a click, will someone PM me and let me know how much the dues are

[BlacktailBowhunter]

I am new to ifish and have had great experiences over the last couple of months. I have posted new threads and responded to existing threads. I also attended a DA meeting and the Lucky Lab Brew Pub. I don't duck hunt, but most of the guys big game hunt as well, so I asked questions about duck hunting and shared stories of big game hunts.

Most of the guys on here belong to one or more hunting organizations. I pretty much fit in where ever I go, because I have had a lot of hunting experience and don't ever feel like the Lone Ranger in striking conversation about things I love to do.

It sounds like the guy you quoted Amahnee is playing the victim. This is real basic. You need info, you ask. If someone wants to offer their time to respond they will, and time is the key here, because typing your response can take a lot of time. I have sat down at my puter and responded to threads, and by the time I was done 3 hours had gone by. I didn't get anything out of the response other than knowing I may have helped someone, which is all I wanted to do in the first place.

The other thing I noticed is if there is a hot topic and a lot of responding going on, most other threads will be ignored. In other words, it is a matter of timing that probably has the most profound effect on the outcome of a response. If I am in a heated debate over an issue on ifish, that debate is my primary focus, so if I have an hour to kill on the puter, I will spend my time responding to that particular issue, and in the process I may overlook another thread that I could have helped someone on. It happens, un intentional, but it does happen.

[Northwest Pest]

Most people on this forum are people and with that you get groups that may get along better than others. This getting along may seem "cliqish" but most people on this forum in my opinion do a good job being helpful.

[Boatdog]

There are a lot of guys on here that know each other, and have built relationships through hunting together and/or sharing stories on the forum. Possibly mistaken for a "clique", but really just a relationship through common interests.

I think the guys on here are very helpful. They have always helped me out with my rookie questions about waterfowling, S.I. mgt area, pheasants, etc. Some via posts, some via PM's.

So THANK YOU for that.

[Amahnee]

Originally Posted by Limbhanger

All I know is if you were in mine you would have spelled it CLICK.....your way looks french...so I refuse to answer.....

That's funny.

I definitely see it. But I don't think it is any kind of exclusivity. It is just a bunch of good old boys banging away on their comfuser keys. You can't expect them to treat complete stranger the same way they treat their hunting buddies.

This could be more along the lines of what I meant. I never said I was the greatest communicator in the world. Hell, I really shouldn't even have made the remark I did. Most members are very helpful and add alot of information and share knowledge. I try to share when there is a question that I feel I have something to offer the member asking the question. My remark was centered more toward the the guy's that are constantly in the huddle together and don't see anybody beyond that huddle. You aren't recognized if you don't belong to the group. The fishing board is definitely different. It seems you can chime in with a remark or give someone a jab in a fun way and they respond in the same way. It just seems on this forum that doesn't happen, but I also feel that hunters are a different breed than the guy's who solely fish.

Second is that people get some pride mixed up in their forum posts. Just because you don't get 20,000 responses doesn't mean you are mean person, you smell, and are generally disagreeable in mixed company. No, it just means that on that given day, people moved pass your thread for what ever reason. It's not about you... well at least not all the time.

I don't normally start many threads and I don't think I have a huge ego? I may come across as somewhat arrogant at times and for that I will apologize.

or..you can lurk in the shadows and make random obscure requests and then feel slighted because no one came to your house, knocked on your door, and drug you out kicking and screaming to show you their secret honey holes.

i mean sure. people have their "hunting partners"..guys they have hunted with for years and will continue to do so for years to come. get involved, meet some people, and maybe you'll find a lifelong hunting partner yourself.

to quote an old movie..."Engage Maverick!! damn you..Engage!!"

I'm pretty much a hermit and will most likely not meet too many folks on Ifish even though this board and another are pretty much my chosen social outlets most of the time. I for the most part am a solitary hunter and I think my success is because I am solitary. I spend the time to find the areas that I take or have taken animals and would never expect GPS coordinates or any locations from a forum or its members. The only real point I was trying to make is that is exactly what I said in the TB thread. Do I take it personally at times? I would be lying if I said no. Do I see it happen to others? Yes. Will it ruin my life or cause me to seek counseling? No. It is an observation and that's all.

I'm a pretty friendly guy and it feels better to feel you have friends even if you have never personally met them. That is why I'm here.

And Boatdog, I have one more post than you. Neener,neener,neener... You ever talk with Aaron about breeding this brownbeast that shares my house?

[Swamp Puppy]

Ahmanee - i have no idea who posted the clique thing to start with. my post was just a general statement and not ment to be personal.

i can completely understand the "lone hunter" aspect and enjoy solo hunts myself. if you ever have any duckin' questions..give me a holler. i don't profess to be an expert, but always willing to help a guy out.

Ed

[Amahnee]

It wasn't taken personally SP. I just quoted responses that seemed relevant to what people thought I originally meant. And I appreciate your offer.

[adobe wall]

I don't know if it's cliquish or not- never seemed that way to me. There are some subject I just won't post about or respond to, doesn't matter who puts them up.

The mods post about the infraction system was pretty interesting, there are some folks who obviously post to troll (or floss, as I'd rather call it here) or otherwise stir the pot. I try not to respond to those, either, as it doesn't help things any. Doesn't always work that way, I've been hooked by one of the more active flossers here a time or two myself.

Folks I've met from this board were all first rate, great people, but I'm no more or less likely to respond to their posts than anyone elses.

I reckon there's stuff we're all interested in- I can't offer a thing if someone needs help on most coldwater fishing techniques as I'm in the category of "avid but inept".

regards, aw

[Gun Rod Bow]

An internet forum is a way different way of comunicating.

When you meet someone in person, you size up their appearance and facial expressions. You have a feel for their age and can make some judgements by their appearance.

You may not like that, but a guy wearing Carharts and a John Deere cap will lead you to believe different things that an eyebrow piercing and Birkenstocks.

On the web, you can't see if someone is smiling when they say that...

I think there are groups of "friends" who evolve on this board. It may start with common interests or views.

Sometimes those common threads (pun intended) will develope into friendships in the real world. I have a few friends who have become hunting buddies from I-fish and some I have met who I have hunted with and would do again, maybe just haven't "cliqued" enough to be buddies.

But for the most part, folks here seem to realize we are playing for the same team and have a common bond whether a duck or big game is our drug of choice.

[Bait O' Eggs]

Did your mom have to tie a bone around your neck to get the dog to play with you.

When it was recess time, did all the kids run off and play, leaving you behind Were you the hall monitor Did you rat other kids out trying to buy the teachers favor

Maybe your just not a likable guy

I am sure there is somebody out there for you maybe you could check out a knitting forum

just kidding (sorta )

[scottishsetter]

The running back for Boise State crochets. That's OK with me; he runs a good Liberty Play.

[Rank Amateur]

Originally Posted by Keeper

Cliques? Clicks?

I just assumed you guys ignored me cause I was female

No, we are just trying to keep from being shot for saying something inappropriate. Hmm.....I didn't cross the line..........did I.

[Duckenfuss]

I'd come up with a thoughtful response, but my clique and I have decided not to participate in this thread.

[fishboys]

I see it. I can say with almost whole honesty that most every person I have met from I fish has been a good person, even Roy and I would help them out if it was within my means. I am not as social as some of you so I might need to try the hall monitoring thing

[toas243]

Where when and how ,and can I join

[wife&3kids]

Thank God for our differences..
I for one am glad that Ifish has allowed people with a common interest to "chat"

The clique thing is a relative term. I am not a huge fan (most of you know this) of posting a bunch of pictures showing off locations.. and for the same reason taking someone to your hunting spot is always a huge risk..

I take that calculated risk all the time and continue to pay for it.

Fishing is a little different, but not really..

the Cliques are pretty funny though. I guess i could be accused of participating in the holding someone accountable category.

[sooslaw]

I understand the clique thing in a way. When I first came here it was hard to get a response but as time goes on, people begin to understand me and what I am about, they feel comfortable giving me a high five or atta boy. I try to only stick my nose in where it belongs. I read most posts and only reply if I have something valuable to give. I post my trail cam pics on here so that others that share the same passion as I, but cant be in the woods every day like myself, can see a light at the end of the tunnel. Some of the boys (and girls) on here are extremely knowledgable about the outdoors but work inside all day and cant go stomp around and find a shed antler in March or get a trail cam set up in June to see bulls in velvet...I am an outlet for those folks, like a **** shop of wildlife. My buddy has his set up too, and he feels no need to share anything about our spots with anyone else. THats o.k. as it is for people on here to do the same. Thanks to anyone on here that has ever answered any of my questions or got a kick out of something I posted...you weren't obligated to do so. I appreciate it.

[Hunt'nFish]

I thought about this thread some last night and would have to say,
YEAH, I SUPPOSE THEIR ARE IFISH CLIQUES. In a way.

Attend a few TA, DA, Bucketheads (B&P Brd) and general IFish lunch socials and you start to put names w/ faces and the distance over the keyboard gets smaller. You start to refer to folks you've met and hunted with or fished with, as buddies. Networking is a by product of IFish. Kinda a "take me goose hunting and lets go chase salmon" sort of thing. Sharing open seats and leveraging what you know for what you don't.
Give and you'll recieve sorta mentality.
I've gotten to do some cool things as a result.

So network a little, come to the lunches and meetings and you'll find the gap narrows and networks are established.
Hunt'nFish

[fishinpoor]

I feel the only "click" we should be concerned with is the safety just before the big " BOOM".

I would enjoy meeting and hunting with some of the guys on here,but living in kfalls makes it a little difficult to jump on an open seat or visit a DA meeting.

I'm originally from the willamete vally/north coast,the guys i elk hunt with every year are still up there.

I spend a lot of time on I-fish reading hunting/fishing reports,because all the areas you guys hunt/fish i am familiar with and have enjoyed them myself,since i don't have the waters right out my back door or SI,i keep up with the latest reports through you guys.of course i do have klamath lake and the lower klamath refuge to hunt ducks/gesse

I know there are alot of guys on this board that i would get along well with,we share the same interests and are dedicated to our sports.in fact i make my living from guys just like us that live to be outdoors.

Some day i hope to meet alot of the people on this board and share what i know in exchange for what they know

[baltz526]

a click is formed when people show up to hunt together, just show up and you are part of the clik. and when you start spaking fench you loose mos of us

[wife&3kids]

I wanna be part of a clique...
who's in?

[waterfowlin101]

I'll be part of your clique Scotty....how about the "won't kill a dusky cause they are protected clan" for a name....you in??

[wife&3kids]

i'm in... no more duskies to be killed!!!!!

who shot that thing?

[younggun20]

Originally Posted by wife&3kids

i'm in... no more duskies to be killed!!!!!

who shot that thing?

I'm in.

Some low life, can't kill a goose if it's not a Dusky type of person I would imagine.

[wife&3kids]

looks like we have our clique then.. We'll call it the straight shooters