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Old 01-26-2007, 08:40 AM   #1
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Post Latest Cougar Attack !!

2 deaths and how many attacks in 12 years ... have we learned anything yet ??

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16817149/from/ET/

When mountain lion attacks, spouse fights back

Wife clubs big cat with log after husband is attacked in California state park



SAN FRANCISCO - Wildlife officials credited a woman with saving her husband's life by clubbing a mountain lion that attacked him while the couple were hiking in a California state park.
Jim and Nell Hamm, who will celebrate their 50th wedding anniversary next month, were hiking in Prairie Creek Redwoods State Park when the lion pounced, officials said Thursday.
"He didn't scream. It was a different, horrible plea for help, and I turned around, and by then the cat had wrestled Jim to the ground," Nell Hamm said in an interview from the hospital where her husband was recovering from a torn scalp, puncture wounds and other injuries.
After the attack, game wardens closed the park about 320 miles north of San Francisco and released hounds to track the lion. They later shot and killed a pair of lions found near the trail where the attack happened.
The carcasses were flown to a state forensics lab to determine if either animal mauled the man.
Although the Hamms are experienced hikers, neither had seen a mountain lion before Jim Hamm was mauled, his wife said. Nell Hamm said she grabbed a four-inch-wide log and beat the animal with it, but it would not release its hold on her husband's head.
"Jim was talking to me all through this, and he said, 'I've got a pen in my pocket and get the pen and jab him in the eye,'" she said. "So I got the pen and tried to put it in his eye, but it didn't want to go in as easy as I thought it would."
When the pen bent and became useless, Nell Hamm went back to using the log. The lion eventually let go and, with blood on its snout, stood staring at the woman. She screamed and waved the log until the animal walked away.





She saved his life, there is no doubt
"She saved his life, there is no doubt about it," said Steve Martarano, a spokesman for the Department of Fish and Game.
Nell Hamm, 65, said she was scared to leave her dazed, bleeding husband alone, so the couple walked a quarter-mile to a trail head, where she gathered branches to protect them if more lions came around. They waited until a ranger came by and summoned help.
"My concern was to get Jim out of there," she said. "I told him, 'Get up, get up, walk,' and he did."
Jim Hamm, 70, was in fair condition Thursday. He had to have his lips stitched back together and underwent surgery for lacerations on his head and body.
Nell Hamm warned people never to hike in the backcountry alone. Park rangers told the couple if Jim Hamm had been alone, he probably would not have survived.
"We fought harder than we ever have to save his life, and we fought together," she said.

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Old 01-26-2007, 08:43 AM   #2
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Default Re: Latest Cougar Attack !!

When I lived in AZ it didnt take long for a cat knowing he wasnt being hounded to grab a 5 yr old at a boat ramp. His dad used an oar to beat and beat the coug until it released his childs head from its mouth. I believe the rules reverted after that. The Native americans knew how to prevent much of these attacks. Wear a mask on the back of your head, they will rarely attack you if they feel they are being watched.
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Old 01-26-2007, 09:25 AM   #3
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Default Re: Latest Cougar Attack !!

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Originally Posted by Critr Gitr View Post
have we learned anything yet ??
No.

We will continue to expand into and fragment, these cats territory.

The best solution will be to shoot the animals to lessen the risk to humans. This will continue until the problem is resolved as humans do not like being thought of anywhere but at the TOP of the food chain.

As stated in the article they went out and shot two of them they found in the area. I'm not too sure why they would want to know if one of them was the cat that attacked that man. If not, will they continue to hunt and shoot more cats?

Why don't they just shoot the cats year round when one is found. Seems to be a more efficient way of dealing with "as animals, we humans will get our butts handed to us when we meet up with one of these cats".


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Old 01-26-2007, 09:36 AM   #4
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Cool Re: Latest Cougar Attack !!

I was driving up near Elbe, WA when a huge Tom Cougar came up from the ditch on my right, sprang across the highway onto the double yellow and in another leap launched across the left lane, the ditch, and up to the top of the 12 foot high embankment on the other side. On it's first leap into the highway it was fully stretched out and from nose to tail-tip spanned the entire 12ft lane only a few yards infront of my bumper. His paws were about the size of my face.

One more reason why I carry when I'm fishing & camping.
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Old 01-26-2007, 10:03 AM   #5
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Default Re: Latest Cougar Attack !!

So is Prairie Creek State Park coug habitat or not?

Cougars dont just sit and think "I'm going to attack a human today" They sit and think "I'm hungry"

Maybe we just need more signs on the highways that say "North America has cougars, most of them live in the woods"
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Old 01-26-2007, 10:09 AM   #6
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Default Re: Latest Cougar Attack !!

Maybe we just need to bring back the dogs.
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Old 01-26-2007, 10:21 AM   #7
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From Wiki

Attacks on humans

Attacks on humans are rare, but do occur, especially as humans encroach on wildlands and impact the availability of the puma's traditional prey. There were around 100 puma attacks on humans in the USA and Canada during the period from 1890 to January 2004, with 16 fatalities; California, which has the highest population density of areas with a significant cougar habitat, has had 64 attacks and 16 fatalities, most of which happened in the past 10 years. Attacks by puma on humans and pets are associated with urban areas situated in the wildland urban intermix such as the Boulder, Colorado area, which have encouraged the traditional prey of the puma, the mule deer, to habituate to urban areas and the presence of people and pets. Pumas in such circumstances may come to lose their fear of both people and dogs and come to see them as prey.
By comparison, about 40 people die in the US each year of bee stings; humans are far more likely to get struck by lightning or die from a black widow spider bite.[2] "Given the opportunities available," notes wildlife biologist Kevin Hansen, "attacks on people are surprisingly rare events indeed, suggesting an overwhelming willingness on the part of the cougar to live and let live, at least where humans are concerned." [3]
On January 8, 2004 a puma killed and partly ate a mountain biker in Whiting Ranch Wilderness Park in Orange County, California; what is assumed to be the same animal attacked another mountain biker in the park the same day, but was fought off by other bikers. A young male puma was shot nearby by rangers later in the day.
From September 2004 to January 2005, there were several reported puma attacks in the Adirondack Mountain towns of upstate New York. The attacks were most prevalent in Hampton, New York. Although no humans were actually attacked, the animal did kill several dogs and some exotic birds in a zoo. The government denied the existence of a puma in the Adirondacks, and some cryptozoologists suggested that the animal was a Mesonychid, although no eyewitness reports described the animal as resembling a dog.
Pumas cannot be hunted in California except under very specific circumstances. This, as well as the extermination in California of the wolf and brown bear, has allowed the puma to increase its numbers. California law requires that wild animals who have attacked a human must be killed if they can be located.
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Old 01-26-2007, 10:38 AM   #8
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Default Re: Latest Cougar Attack !!

Male Cougars are territorial. They each require about Ten square miles. As Cougar populations increase and young adults leave the den they are evicted from that area. In an effort to relocate and establish their own territory they are forced to move closer to humans as Vacancies are extremely limited. This is when human encounter becomes a problem.
Most of these kinds of attacks are from Younger smaller Cats. Imagine if that cat was the 200+ lb cat submitted on another thread.

Oregon tries to manage the Cougar population to around 5000 cats total.
As the numbers continue to increase there are bound to be incidents like this one.

There has never been a recorded fatality in Oregon from Cougar Or Bear for that matter.

There's always a first time !
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Old 01-26-2007, 10:40 AM   #9
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Default Re: Latest Cougar Attack !!

I just talked to a guy that had his beagle dissappear a couple nights ago, said he heard it happen. The state trapper set some traps and said it was a couger.
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Old 01-26-2007, 11:54 AM   #10
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Default Re: Latest Cougar Attack !!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Water View Post
No.
The best solution will be to shoot the animals to lessen the risk to humans. This will continue until the problem is resolved as humans do not like being thought of anywhere but at the TOP of the food chain. ...... </rant>
No ...

Lesson : maybe we should learn to NOT allow complicated issues like these to be managed at the ballot box by a majority of people who are guided by their emotions. Let the agencies whose job it is to manage these magnificent animals do their job. How many states now have wildlife management issues decided or being decided by the general population ?
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Old 01-26-2007, 12:29 PM   #11
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Default Re: Latest Cougar Attack !!

What are we supposed to learn?

Life will be better if we kill off any species we find annoying?

Look out for big cats?

2 deaths in 12 years ... let's see, how do cougars compare to automobiles? Or guns? Or lightning? Let KILL LIGHTNING!

I thought this was going to be about the OSU game
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Old 01-26-2007, 12:44 PM   #12
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Here's a lesson, the cougar population has expanded to far in california and now desperate cats are looking for any source of food possible. Don't compare them to automobiles or dogs or even weather related deaths. Its a different issue. Far more people come into contact with these things on a daily basis. Nobody wants cougars eradicated from the face of the earth.
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Old 01-26-2007, 02:47 PM   #13
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Default Re: Latest Cougar Attack !!

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Originally Posted by Critr Gitr View Post
2 deaths and how many attacks in 12 years ... have we learned anything yet ??
I don't know...in recent year's three persons I know have drowned in rivers while fishing and rafting. A fourth person, a disabled cousin, had a siezure and drowned in a mud puddle.

So what's the lesson? Ban water? Stay indoors?

I think I'll just skip the fear hype and go on with my life.
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Old 01-26-2007, 04:53 PM   #14
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Default Re: Latest Cougar Attack !!

These horrid creatures are even invading homes to attack. And killing in the yard. Pretty soon they will be snatching your children off your front porch.

*snip*

Quote:
Nov. 1, 2005 A rash of attacks by male deer has prompted California wildlife officials to warn people to try and keep their distance from the wild animals.
The attacks, two against people and three against neighborhood pets, are most likely fluke incidents, officials say. However, the gorings could also be a sign that as residential areas expand, wild deer are becoming more accustomed to people and less fearful of them.
"What happens is these animals get more comfortable around people and people start to think of them like Bambi and often don't realize they can be dangerous," said Steve Martarano of the California Department of Fish and Game.
The male deer that attacked Ron Dudek, 73, on Sept. 25 as he was picking tomatoes in his garden was likely caught by surprise, says Martarano. The 6-foot-tall buck charged out of a patch of shrubbery and gored Dudek in the face before running off. Dudek was rushed to the hospital where he received 220 stitches for the wounds. Three weeks later he died from a pulmonary blood clot resulting from the encounter.
In another attack further north in the state, a couple in Covelo were attacked while watering a friend's vegetable garden. Martarano says the woman was gored in the arm after the animal had pinned the man to the ground with its antlers. When the woman tried to scare off the animal with a piece of plywood, she was gored in the arm. The man was shaken, but not hurt.
And in Orinda, male deer have attacked neighborhood dogs, killing one and seriously wounding another.
"We've never had any problems with our many local deer before," said Dee Pearce, whose 10-year-old dog Kermit, an afghan-golden mix, was killed by a buck that gored the dog in the head. "This seems to be an odd year around here."
Pearce says her dog did not bark before or during the encounter with the deer. And three hours after the deer gored her dog, it gored another dog, an elderly black Labrador retriever that lives across the street from Pearce. That dog survived. Later, the buck faced off with a third dog in the neighborhood, a Jack Russell terrier.
"I saw the buck put its head down like he was about to attack him," said Louis Pimentel, owner of the terrier, Willie. "So I put my camera down and took my dog inside."
*snip*

DEER ATTACK

*snip*

Quote:
CARBONDALE, Ill. A woman who was among those injured in a series of deer attacks last year on Southern Illinois University's campus says she's suing the school, arguing officials didn't do enough to protect her.
Zhimin "Nancy" Wang, a doctoral student from China, was among the first of four people who sustained mostly minor injuries in the separate attacks during last June's fawning season, when officials say mother does tend to be more aggressive in protecting offspring.
Deer confronted three other people last year, with most of the encounters happening in or near the campus' sprawling Thompson Woods.
*snip*

Quote:
BROADVIEW HEIGHTS -- It is one of those stories you would not believe unless we showed you.
A local woman came face to face with a deer in her own home Wednesday.

She says she was watching TV when she went to let her dog out and ended up much to close for comfort to wildlife.

"She started trampling me, she wanted me dead," Mary Blake said.

Blake, your typical grandma, was in a fight for her life just inside her door.

"When you are sitting in your family room watching TV, let the dog out you don't expect to get stampeded," Blake said. "I tried to shut the door. She sprung the door and knocked me into the wood basket."

Just as the deer was running into her house, Blake got a glimpse of the fawn the doe was trying to protect.

She was cut and bleeding and the deer wasn't done. It was an attack that left Blake with 27 stitches and plenty of bruises.

"I punched her in the nose and karate chopped her," Blake said. "I kicked her."

That's when Buddy came to the rescue and distracted the deer.

"So she turned around and I got up, grabbed the phone and I ran for the front door," Blake said.

She called 911.

Neither the dispatcher nor Blake's daughter could believe it.

"I called work, they're laughing," Monica Hunter said.

Before police arrived, the deer tore up Blake's dining room.

This was a case of the mother protecting her young, that's why Blake forgives the animal and is glad police chased it out and did not shoot it.

"I feel sorry for them, they were here first," she said.

Police managed to chase it out and Blake will never forget it but this one won't be dear to her heart.

"It was trying to kill me, that's not Bambi you know," she said.

Blake didn't suffer any broken bones but doctors say she will need plastic surgery on one of her cuts.


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Old 01-26-2007, 05:21 PM   #15
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Thats funny!

What would Uncle Ted do?

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Old 01-26-2007, 05:21 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garyk View Post
I don't know...in recent year's three persons I know have drowned in rivers while fishing and rafting. A fourth person, a disabled cousin, had a siezure and drowned in a mud puddle.

So what's the lesson? Ban water? Stay indoors?

I think I'll just skip the fear hype and go on with my life.
My sentiments exactly.

It was a horrible thing for these folks but, horrible things sometime happen, unfortunately.
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Old 01-26-2007, 05:47 PM   #17
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It would seem the modern day hunter is just fine when they are the apex predator in the forest.
But put another apex predator in the mix, and all we hear is a clamor to control the other perdator.
Is it any wonder why their image is so low with the nonhunting public?
This attitude of entitlement to the resourse only serves to make them look greedy to nonhunters.
This predaphobia we see in a lot of todays hunters, only hurts their cause.
Hunting can be a very rewarding family oriented sport, this is the image that should be portrayed, not the killing off of competing predators.


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Old 01-26-2007, 06:25 PM   #18
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Default Re: Latest Cougar Attack !!

Man, this one got my attention.

Two years ago... three? I was face to face with a big kitty kitty. I'll never forget that. We both ran! I even fell flat on my face.

I went back to that place to fish a week ago, and I was spooked to death the whole time!

Singing LOUDLY as I cast!

Yikes! Those kitties scare me!

SERIOUSLY!

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Old 01-26-2007, 06:34 PM   #19
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Default Re: Latest Cougar Attack !!

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Originally Posted by Row Vs. Wade View Post
So is Prairie Creek State Park coug habitat or not?

Cougars dont just sit and think "I'm going to attack a human today" They sit and think "I'm hungry"

Maybe we just need more signs on the highways that say "North America has cougars, most of them live in the woods"

Thank you.
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Old 01-26-2007, 06:49 PM   #20
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Here's a lesson, the cougar population has expanded to far in california and now desperate cats are looking for any source of food possible. Don't compare them to automobiles or dogs or even weather related deaths. Its a different issue. Far more people come into contact with these things on a daily basis. Nobody wants cougars eradicated from the face of the earth.
Or, is it loss of habitat. Maybe we can continue to Californicate Oregon and we can have the same problem in the future.

I saw a cat a month ago at 100 yards, so I bought a pistol. If lightning strikes I am ready. Wait... I was where they live not where I live. What's next?
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Old 01-26-2007, 07:46 PM   #21
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Well you cougars lovers got me now. Your right we're at fault, we thrive and we thrive as a population, more houses get built, more trees fall and cougars have fewer places to roam free. Its terrible. I know, lets tell everyone they have to live some place where animals never lived, because after all they were there first. Lets move to the ocean! Oh wait there's too many critters there we might hurt.

I have an idea. Lets create this organization that manages animal populations so there is a good balance between humans and animals. Oh wait they already exist. So how about we let them make the decisions and keep people like you and I from arguing about it.
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Old 01-26-2007, 08:05 PM   #22
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Default Re: Latest Cougar Attack !!

Bring back the Griz to the Willamette valley! Why not, we are doing the same thing with cougars???
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Old 01-26-2007, 08:19 PM   #23
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Why are suggestions being thrown out to solve a problem that doesnt exist?
What do we need to "learn" that we dont already know? That a cougar might decide that a human (without a gun) is lower on the food chain and higher on the menu?

If a cougar attacks a human, kill it.
If not, leave the darn things alone, or get off our butt, get a hunting license and go shoot one according to the regs that manage the hunt.

If you walk into someones yard and a dog bites you, its YOUR fault.

Walk into a cougars yard and a cougar bites you...whos fault is it?

Altogether now...

If a cougar bites you in your own yard...buy a lottery ticket, and dont EVER leave your house during a thunderstorm!
Especially in a car.

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Old 01-26-2007, 08:44 PM   #24
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Why is it viewed as there is no problem? The cougar population is expanding beyond it's carrying capacity. We are getting more numerous interactions with humans and domestic stock. Using existing hunting methods will not solve the problem. Nobody (well most people) wants to wipe them out, just control them. I stand by my Griz comment, if it is ok to let cougar populations go ballistic, then we surely could put up with a few Griz in the valley. Why does that not make sense? The answer is why we need to control cougar numbers also.
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Old 01-26-2007, 08:47 PM   #25
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Default Re: Latest Cougar Attack !!

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I have an idea. Lets create this organization that manages animal populations so there is a good balance between humans and animals. Oh wait they already exist. So how about we let them make the decisions and keep people like you and I from arguing about it.
Several things.

1. Why is there a need for this organization in the first place?
2. Artificial balance. Not a good balance.
3. Is our government our omnipotent overlords? They work for us. We have a say in how our resources are managed.
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Old 01-26-2007, 09:11 PM   #26
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Ok, Ill digress on the "problem" part maybe there is.

But look at the numbers.

A thousand times more dog bites occur (probably more) but we dont "control" dogs by reducing their numbers to reduce the incidences of dog bites do we? We put the responsibility on the dog owner.
If each individual took responsibility for their own safety in cougar territory, what difference would it make how many cougars there are? The threats to humans would be resolved on the spot.

How do you define "control" ?
Shoot on site?
So, we reduce the numbers of cougars because 2 people were killed and 12 were attacked this year (?).
What happens to the population of cougar prey and the pop of other predators which pray on the same species like Coyotes? It expands, and causes its own problems.
Are you suggesting that grizzlies will control the pop of cougs?
The first time a griz takes down a Bend ranchers cow, its dead.
The first time a person gets mauled by a griz, its dead.
The first time a hunter gets spooked by a griz, its dead.

How long would grizzlies last unless there were thousands of them?
How long would they last IF there were thousands of them for us to encroach on their habitat too?
How long before a coug problem becomes a griz problem?

The best "management" for cougs is already happening. If theyre a threat to your life, shoot it. If you dont carry a gun into cougar territory, either two things are happening, cougs are not a viable threat to you, or your gambling. One or the other.
Its obvious that most coug attacks result from a cat seeing a human as food.
If theyre looking at you as food, theyre not finding it elsewhere. Which is an indication of effective management already isnt it? No food means populations dwindle to a level of the food supplies that will sustain them.
Shoot the overflow when it sees a human as food and everyones happy.

So wheres the problem?

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Old 01-26-2007, 09:42 PM   #27
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I don't get it...
We have the technology to eradicate cougars, but a few bleeding heart liberals are whining about preserving the rights of an animal that obviously sides with the Islamic terrorists.
Think about it people, this is a war we CAN win!! Allow hunting dogs, put a bounty on them, create a market for cougar fur, and the critters are history!!!
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Old 01-26-2007, 10:45 PM   #28
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Wow, did I suddenly leave Ifish and get transported to Billy-Bobs confederate gunslinging monster truck webpage?

Psst, Kc...

WHAT war?
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Old 01-27-2007, 04:18 AM   #29
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Actually RVW, I agree with you, if everytime we had a negative interaction with a cougar and we were allowed to take it then we would not have a problem, well kinda. By allowing the cougar population to get out of balance with the prey base we then encourage these interactions. We also have now made it very hard to address taking care of these animals. In my local area where there are not a lot of cougars, there have been several cougar attacks on live stock, yet the mechanism to address this problem animal is not working. If we had the dogs back in the woods this problem animal would have probably been picked up by now. Just like deer and elk, they need to be managed, what we have now is pseudomanagement, we are not controlling the population, we are just picking up some of the slop over. We are not doing a very good job of picking up the animals that are expanding into the interaction zone, hunters tend to try to hunt in uncomplicated areas and thus hunt in what would be good habitat for cougars. It's a complicated issue, just packing a gun will not solve the problem, although it might save your bacon, it will not solve the management issues of an expanding cougar population though and the effects that will have on other wildlife and livestock.
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Old 01-27-2007, 05:20 AM   #30
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I think all the hype about Cougars is due to their reclusive nature and rare encounters. Most people including me make a big deal if they even see a cougar. Seeing any cougar in the wild even in a life time is not common. So when we see one, let alone here about an attack by one, It's a big deal.

I have a cougar tag and I am not afraid to use it.
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Old 01-27-2007, 05:38 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kc1 View Post
I don't get it...
We have the technology to eradicate cougars, but a few bleeding heart liberals are whining about preserving the rights of an animal that obviously sides with the Islamic terrorists.
Think about it people, this is a war we CAN win!! Allow hunting dogs, put a bounty on them, create a market for cougar fur, and the critters are history!!!
This one just makes me get misty.


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Old 01-27-2007, 06:09 AM   #32
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Ok, my interest level is dwindling but Ill consume a little more (cyber) space with a rebuttal.
Im not sure we see eye to eye on how management is, in its current state, sub-par based on 112 US attacks in 117 years in combination with the fact that ignorance might play a role in cougar attacks on humans?

Theres only one way to reduce that number to zero. Reduce the number of cats to zero, and thats just not going to happen with all the "bleeding heart liberals" out there (and allegedly in here)

As I understand it, cougar (and any other predator) populations are very self managing.
"Allowing the cougar population to get out of balance with the prey base"
Isnt exactly pinpointing a real problem in need of a real (management) solution when its capable of correcting itself to a large degree.
But I question the likelihood of any predator population growing to a significant degree without a food source to sustain the growth.

The Above Wiki reference points out that as deer become more common and comfortable in urban areas, the cats are going to follow and become more comfortable themselves.

Anyway, dogs are a great way to increase the odds of a kill, but in terms of population management, only selective hunting that targets problem cats will make the problem cats go away. Thats a pretty easy concept to understand when accepting the fact that cats are not going to be exterminated.
A general hunt is really just taking the long way home by reducing overall populations yet a cats territory does not expand when theres no competing cats beyond that range. I suspect they will continue to follow the deer into urban areas where theres also dogs and domestic cats to eat and the younger less experienced hunters are going to be there first.

I'd offer a solution, but I honestly dont think theres a real problem, other than the fact that the citizens of this country either do not exercise their constitutional right to bear arms, or the government takes it away.


I'll also add for Kc that I dont particularly find myself with many similarities to a liberal (bleeding heart or otherwise) when I offer defense to an animals right to live and die. But I do think for my kids and their kids, and the possibility that they will enjoy a world with cougars rather than without cougars.
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Old 01-27-2007, 07:57 AM   #33
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Default Re: Latest Cougar Attack !!

Quote:
I don't get it...
We have the technology to eradicate cougars, but a few bleeding heart liberals are whining about preserving the rights of an animal that obviously sides with the Islamic terrorists.
Think about it people, this is a war we CAN win!! Allow hunting dogs, put a bounty on them, create a market for cougar fur, and the critters are history!!!
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Old 01-27-2007, 08:14 AM   #34
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Default Re: Latest Cougar Attack !!

Quote:
Originally Posted by kc1 View Post
I don't get it...
We have the technology to eradicate cougars, but a few bleeding heart liberals are whining about preserving the rights of an animal that obviously sides with the Islamic terrorists.
Think about it people, this is a war we CAN win!! Allow hunting dogs, put a bounty on them, create a market for cougar fur, and the critters are history!!!
Wow. And some folks wonder why us hunters have an image problem to contend with........
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Old 01-27-2007, 10:20 AM   #35
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Default Re: Latest Cougar Attack !!

Yes indeed the cougar populations will follow the decline of the prey species. So is this how we are going to manage our wildlife? Boom and crash, boom and crash, because that is what we will have. Modern biggame management is the reason we have stable game populations (well in some cases). What you are failing to mention is that there are lag times in these populations, cougars will lag a deer population as it increases and it will lag a deer herd when it decreases. That is why there are boom and crash cycles. Also man has conveintly provided alternate food sources that didn't occur before in a natural system, cows, horses, goats, sheep, dogs, cats, ect. Cougars will continue to survive even when the primary prey species has declined, "if" they can scrounge up enough alternate food. This is where the conflicts will come in and could place us in a predator pit situation from which the ungulates can not recover from.

What is interesting is that we are in a grand experiment, years ago cougars were vilified and pursecuted. We had a great expansion in ungulate populations and confirmed that we could manage said ungulates through controlled hunting. We are now trying another grand experiment for which we have "NO" experience, letting a apex predator to self regulate, while trying to also provide recreational use of ungulates.
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Old 01-27-2007, 10:32 AM   #36
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Here's a little bit of information for perspective. These are my figures derived from published data. Do your own math if you have any doubts. These numbers are conservative.

Cougar predation stats.
This is what I come up with guys, I think we are already sharing plenty of our game. From the research the stats point to an ungulate (deer or elk) kill once every 8 days (this was the upper limit). Also from the research the % deer versus elk was around 66% deer and a third elk, although this will vary with area and sex of cougar. With 5,000 cougars in our state the stats work out to this.

365 days divided by 8 = 45 ungulates per year.

2/3 will be deer=30

1/3 will be elk=15

5000 cougars x 30 deer =150,000 deer per year.

5000 cougars x 15 elk= 75,000 elk per year.

Hunter harvest in 2003

Westside deer=23,695
Westside elk=8,150

Eastside deer=28,173
Eastside elk=11,369

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Old 01-27-2007, 10:44 AM   #37
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And remember, Rank's numbers do NOT include ungulates killed by bears, coyotes, and bobcats.

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Old 01-27-2007, 11:12 AM   #38
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Default Re: Latest Cougar Attack !!

Quote:
Originally Posted by kc1 View Post
I don't get it...
We have the technology to eradicate cougars, but a few bleeding heart liberals are whining about preserving the rights of an animal that obviously sides with the Islamic terrorists.
Think about it people, this is a war we CAN win!! Allow hunting dogs, put a bounty on them, create a market for cougar fur, and the critters are history!!!

Make sure when you get out of jail for meth, anger, etc. that you resume digging the ditch in front of my million dollar home. Us bleeding hearts want a clear view of the woods so we don't get any surprise attacks from the cougars we so dearly love.
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Old 01-27-2007, 11:13 AM   #39
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Any idea on the number of winter kill of deer and elk?
Or what the effect of cattle grazing in our national forests has on deer and elk winter kill?



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Old 01-27-2007, 11:18 AM   #40
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Any idea on the number of winter kill of deer and elk?
Or what the effect of cattle grazing in our national forests has on deer and elk winter kill?



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Or road kills, dog kills and lack of habitat from development?

Right outside of GP here, they just changed a winter range area to residential zoning, so more houses can displace more winter deer habitat........
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Old 01-27-2007, 11:41 AM   #41
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Any idea on the number of winter kill of deer and elk?
Or what the effect of cattle grazing in our national forests has on deer and elk winter kill?



salmon hugger
Did a little digging. I didn't find the latest up to date figures but these will get us in the ball park. The elk numbers were off a graph so they are approximate. I found no estimate for Blacktail population, it's probably there somewhere.

2006 Mule Deer estimate-237,500

2001 Rocky Mt. elk-60,000

2001 Roosovelt elk-60,000

For elk I have read that 3% a year is an average from natural causes. Recently a 10% figure has been given during abnormal winter conditions. I would guess that deer will follow with a little bit higher percentages. Be aware that most of these animals that are subcumbing to winter effects will be the first to die by predation. It is really hard to separate the two, just remember the predators will need to eat regardless of the condition of the animals.
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Old 01-27-2007, 12:13 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Rank Amateur View Post
Did a little digging. I didn't find the latest up to date figures but these will get us in the ball park. The elk numbers were off a graph so they are approximate. I found no estimate for Blacktail population, it's probably there somewhere.

2006 Mule Deer estimate-237,500

2001 Rocky Mt. elk-60,000

2001 Roosovelt elk-60,000

For elk I have read that 3% a year is an average from natural causes. Recently a 10% figure has been given during abnormal winter conditions. I would guess that deer will follow with a little bit higher percentages. Be aware that most of these animals that are subcumbing to winter effects will be the first to die by predation. It is really hard to separate the two, just remember the predators will need to eat regardless of the condition of the animals.
RA, thank you for the information, I know what's like to be doing other people's home work.
So would it be plauseable to think, what many blame for low numbers of deer and elk, is mearly a direct result of higher than normal winter kill?
I'm also convinced that grazing in our national forests, has a very negitive effect on the ablity of deer and elk to over winter successfuly.



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Old 01-27-2007, 12:35 PM   #43
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That's a fair guestion, but I would say no in the long run. Populations of managed animals have a way of leveling themselves over time. Currently in Oregon we are seeing short term declines in deer and elk populations. Some of the severest declines are occurring in areas of high predator numbers, especially cougars. The documentation of the effects of cougars on ungulates has steadily increased in recent years, with many states doing duplicate research and having comparable results.

There is no doubt that a severe winter can have a drastic impact on ungulates, we have experienced a few of these events, so the professional game managers know what they look like, we have not experienced a really bad winter for at least a decade now. If you do the numbers above, it can be seen that cougars are a major player in the population dynamics that are going on out in the woods, in the long run they will have a much greater impact than isolated severe winter effects.

Grazing, no doubt this is an issue. Personally, my view of grazing is that the practices are getting better and knowing how ungulate populations survived the severe grazing practices of the 70'-80's would only help support the idea that ungulates should be in a better position today versus back then.

Probably what has had a greater influence on ungulate populations than grazing has been the suspression of wildfire. In places that have burned, ungulate populations respond very positively. Now if we could just get the Forest service not to plant everything back into trees!

Remember, the better off the ungulate population is the better off the cougar population will be also. To get there we must balance the two, if you look at the above numbers, I don't think sportsmen are asking for too much. Does it really matter if there are 5,500 cougars or 3,000 as long as they are a healthy population?
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Old 01-27-2007, 12:42 PM   #44
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Probably what has had a greater influence on ungulate populations than grazing has been the suspression of wildfire. In places that have burned, ungulate populations respond very positively. Now if we could just get the Forest service not to plant everything back into trees!

I think this, along with the reduction of clear cutting on public ground, (a good thing, on a different level, in my mind) are two very important factors when considering declining deer populations, especially on the west side.

I think during what I will call the "timber industry revolution", from the forties to the eighties, we created an unnatural and unsustainable amount of deer habitat.


The end of clear cutting as we knew it, coupled with the mindset that the only good fire is an extinguished fire, has, in my opinion, had the most dramatic influence on deer populations.
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Old 01-27-2007, 12:50 PM   #45
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Rank, I appreciate the numbers and I agree with your call for management.
I just wince at the words "better management". Especially when it follows an attack on a human because we've all seen how hasty management decisions have resulted more in learning experiences than reasonable control of a species population and longevity.
Balance is the key word. Im sure Kc isnt the only one out there that tips the scales of balance just as much as the "bleeding heart liberals" do in the other direction, and neither group gets anywhere with the extreme measures they endorse.

Nobody wants to see the pictures like the one above, its a horrific encounter but one that can be avoided with more citizen involvement, and less gov level bureaucracy...and maybe a big neon sign that says "cougars live here, cougars are one link higher in the food chain than you"

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Old 01-27-2007, 01:01 PM   #46
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Default Re: Latest Cougar Attack !!

Straydog, you are absolutely right about the clearcut issue on the westside, with the exception of the northwest corner. The northwest corner is comprised of large amounts of either state managed forests or private industrial lands. The deer population has decline in this area as fast or faster than the regions to the south, but that is a separate issue outside of the scope of cougars in my opinion, but may be predator related.

RVW, I agree, knee jerk decisions usually end up bad. Just food for thought, Kc may actually be a PETA member just trying to make hunters look bad, this is an open forum.
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Old 01-27-2007, 04:08 PM   #47
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So is this how we are going to manage our wildlife? Boom and crash, boom and crash, because that is what we will have.
That's the way God designed the system, maybe it's not such a bad deal.
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Old 01-27-2007, 06:59 PM   #48
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That's the way God designed the system, maybe it's not such a bad deal.
Maybe, but just as much he may have designed us to manage our resources. I will flip a coin on this one!
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Old 01-27-2007, 07:48 PM   #49
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Default Re: Latest Cougar Attack !!

Im a hunter, I like to bow hunt elk, deer but I wont pass on a preditor. I can honestly say one good thing has come from not haveing dogs run cougars. Theres a lot more for guys like me to get a crack at. The most exciteing thing that ever happened to me was running into a big kitty
Now every day when I get up and look at this awsome creature that I was able to take and be reminded of the awsome power it had.

If you think takeing a deer or elk or a 60 lb kings a rush try taking on a cougar spot and stalk with a bow. It was the highlight of my hunting life and I can thank Portland voters For the opprotunaty.

FYI there is only musle on a cougar they aint soft like your house cat.
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Old 01-27-2007, 08:03 PM   #50
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Default Re: Latest Cougar Attack !!

Wow. And with a bow.

That mount is awesome.
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Old 01-27-2007, 08:12 PM   #51
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Quote:
Wow. And with a bow.
Is that crazy or courage, probably a little of both.

Just have fun with ya. Really nice trophy! Amazing.
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Old 01-27-2007, 08:19 PM   #52
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I think all the hype about Cougars is due to their reclusive nature and rare encounters. Most people including me make a big deal if they even see a cougar. Seeing any cougar in the wild even in a life time is not common. So when we see one, let alone here about an attack by one, It's a big deal.

I have a cougar tag and I am not afraid to use it.
Humm I seen 12 in 4 years, Where You huntin?? Bet thats why I had tag soup again this year LOL
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Old 01-28-2007, 03:29 PM   #53
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Default Re: Latest Cougar Attack !!

Twelve cougars in four years? Thats crazy! If I were you I'd move. Of course I say that and my best deer spot is now a great bear spot. In a three year period I saw twenty bears (counting a few cubs). It was fun to see them but I was looking for deer!

As for cougars I'm all for them being in the woods in healthy populations. But we manage their primary food sources so why don't we manage them? If you say we already do then fine, but ask the professionals how they would prefer to do it.
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