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Old 02-10-2017, 08:16 PM   #1
Rusty Stern
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Default Why do we owe them a living?

So at one point in history there was commercial duck hunting.

Thousands and thousands of birds brought down with what were essentially cannons. Like 4 gauge guns mounted on wheels.

Entire flocks hammered at once.

The impact on waterfowl populations serious and grave.

And at one point commercial harvest was outlawed.

Yet sport hunters are still allowed.

I listened to a guy give pro gillnet testimony and I kept hearing the position like somehow commercial fishermen are owed an existence on the river.

Why?

Why are they owed a living?

Maybe the reality is, they need to go the way of the commercial duck hunters.



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Old 02-10-2017, 08:19 PM   #2
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Default Re: Why do we owe them a living?

They shouldn't be owed anything, and most of them don't do it for a "living"! Get them off the river.
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Old 02-10-2017, 08:26 PM   #3
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Default Re: Why do we owe them a living?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Stern View Post
So at one point in history there was commercial duck hunting.

Thousands and thousands of birds brought down with what were essentially cannons. Like 4 gauge guns mounted on wheels.

Entire flocks hammered at once.

The impact on waterfowl populations serious and grave.

And at one point commercial harvest was outlawed.

Yet sport hunters are still allowed.

I listened to a guy give pro gillnet testimony and I kept hearing the position like somehow commercial fishermen are owed an existence on the river.

Why?

Why are they owed a living?

Maybe the reality is, they need to go the way of the commercial duck hunters.



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Like this a lot. Thank you.
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Old 02-10-2017, 08:35 PM   #4
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Default Re: Why do we owe them a living?

Even if you don't buy fish or fish products harvested by them - if you're fishing the columbia basin, you get to pay them via that stupid endorsement. Let them troll the ocean with long lines and barbless hooks, and only keep the first XXX of fish they catch, fin or no fin. Short season, reasonable quota. The handful of commercial license holders get the lions share of the harvestable quota, which is horsehockey. Tens of thousands of license holders between Oregon and Washington, yet a handful of people get to pillage the runs and sporties get the scraps, and we get to subsidize their welfare, and they got Youngs Bay closed to all angling just to give them more of a leg up.

I'd be fine if that $10 went to a job training program, if any of those guys was actually making their living by fishing the C. They're not - and I don't feel like paying another tax to fund people with an entitlement mentality. They feel entitled to the bulk of the hatchery run, they feel entitled to put gill nets in our river and hoover up a public resource that gets paid for by the tax payers and sport anglers, which is then packaged up and sold elsewhere by in large.

We get to pay for hatcheries - so they get to reap the benefits. Unfair doesn't begin to describe the situation.
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Old 02-10-2017, 08:36 PM   #5
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Default Re: Why do we owe them a living?

Many many years ago there were ice salesmen that made their living from selling ice to residents with iceboxes in their kitchens, eventually refrigerators overtook the market and the ice salesman were no longer needed. Do you think that all those ice salesman went broke and never worked again? Nope, they adapted and moved on. So now why do we have to worry about a small group of businessman/fisherman that can't adapt to changing times? I'm a struggling small business owner and I don't look for handouts from the government, why should these individuals be any different?

Just my
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Old 02-10-2017, 08:57 PM   #6
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Default Re: Why do we owe them a living?

11 Jobs That No Longer Exist Today

Back in the day, there were jobs to do just about everything. You could be paid to reset the pins at a bowling alley or knock on people’s windows to wake them up.

1. Bowling Alley Pinsetter
Bowling alley pinsetters were small children, employed by bowling alleys to set up the pins after each bowler. These noisy, laborious jobs typically paid very little.

2. Human Alarm Clock
These folks were commonly called “knocker-uppers”. They would walk a set route, rapping on the windows of their clients with long sticks, throwing pebbles, and shouting at the top of their lungs, to make sure they woke up on time for their jobs.

3. Ice Cutter
Before the invention of the refrigerator, the best way to keep things cool was to harvest ice in the winter, and store it for use through the warmer months of the summer. This job fell to ice-cutters. They had the dangerous assignment of carving frozen ponds and lakes into giant blocks of ice and lifting them from the frigid waters, risking death by hypothermia if they fell in.

4. Pre-radar Listeners For Enemy Aircraft
Soon after airplanes were invented, armies around the world adapted methods for detecting the sound of engines approaching on the horizon. Before we had radar detection, we relied on sensitive ears and amplified sound waves. Upon hearing an enemy aircraft approaching, these listeners would sound the alarm.

5. Rat Catchers
When Europe was suffering from massive rat infestations, this job was a booming career option. Rats were often carriers of disease, and they risked getting sick from bites, but their job was an important public service.

6. Lamp Lighter
Before electric lamps were introduced to most cities, street lamps were fueled by gas, and lamplighters would walk the streets at dusk to set flame to these street lights.

7. Milkman
Without refrigeration, milk will spoil within a day. That’s why the milk man was an ever present occupation, making daily deliveries, right up until the advent of the fridge.

8.Log Drivers
Back before highways and railways, the absolute best way to transport lumber from the forest to the mill was to float it down the river, guided by log drivers.

9. Switchboard Operator
The routing of today’s millions of simultaneous phone calls all happens digitally. Not that long ago, these calls were all handled manually, by countless switchboard operators, literally connecting wire to wire.

10. Resurrectionist
In the early days of modern medicine, doctors at universities and hospitals has to essentially resort to graver-robbing, hiring “resurrectionists” to body-snatch cadavers for experimentation and study.

11. Lector Who Entertained Factory Workers
Ever listen to a podcast or audiobook while doing repetitive work? Factory workers used to hire live “lectors” to read works of literature to them while they worked, sometimes pooling their money together to pay for them. Occasionally these lectors read labor-organizing materials, leading to an increase in unions and collective bargaining.
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Old 02-10-2017, 09:34 PM   #7
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Default Re: Why do we owe them a living?

We don't owe them anything they can find a new source of fish or fold.

My job of 15 yrs ended after some drama.... but no one owes me nothing short of what the LAW is printed to protect.

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Old 02-10-2017, 10:00 PM   #8
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Default Re: Why do we owe them a living?

The answer is, because Kitz offered it up.

I wish someone would have offered to pay my lost income from federal regulations. 6 figures a year gross for me (I am a smaller operation. The big outfits were 30-40 million a year gross).

Nobody was handed anything. It simply went away.
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Old 02-11-2017, 12:05 AM   #9
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Default Re: Why do we owe them a living?

Looking at their Facebook pages, it appears that the argument they're gearing up for is that sport fishermen don't want the public to be able to eat salmon unless they catch it themselves. They're going to try to get the people who buy salmon at Safeway and Fred Meyer to think that if gillnetting is banned on the Columbia, they won't be able to have salmon for dinner anymore.
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Old 02-11-2017, 03:54 AM   #10
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Default Re: Why do we owe them a living?

Because Peter is related to Paul, albeit a somewhat shady backwoods thing Oregon grows those funny looking teeth in.
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Old 02-11-2017, 04:54 AM   #11
MsOutdrs
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Default Re: Why do we owe them a living?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkwerx View Post
Even if you don't buy fish or fish products harvested by them - if you're fishing the columbia basin, you get to pay them via that stupid endorsement. Let them troll the ocean with long lines and barbless hooks, and only keep the first XXX of fish they catch, fin or no fin. Short season, reasonable quota. The handful of commercial license holders get the lions share of the harvestable quota, which is horsehockey. Tens of thousands of license holders between Oregon and Washington, yet a handful of people get to pillage the runs and sporties get the scraps, and we get to subsidize their welfare, and they got Youngs Bay closed to all angling just to give them more of a leg up.

I'd be fine if that $10 went to a job training program, if any of those guys was actually making their living by fishing the C. They're not - and I don't feel like paying another tax to fund people with an entitlement mentality. They feel entitled to the bulk of the hatchery run, they feel entitled to put gill nets in our river and hoover up a public resource that gets paid for by the tax payers and sport anglers, which is then packaged up and sold elsewhere by in large.

We get to pay for hatcheries - so they get to reap the benefits. Unfair doesn't begin to describe the situation.
In my mind, its the fish packing/processing company(s) that we are subsidizing.
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Old 02-11-2017, 04:57 AM   #12
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Default Re: Why do we owe them a living?

Big Picture: We plant the river with hatchery fish to somehow make up for the fact that we commercially over harvested the fish to near extinction, logged the trib habitat and ran their progeny through a hydro plant.

We found that the hatchery fish were inferior to the fish that managed to survive in the wild to the point that a wild fish spawning with a hatchery fish produced no offspring. In effect, every such spawning reduced the possibility of more wild fish. Dang...

It was determined that hatchery fish could not be allowed to spawn with wild fish if we were ever going to have healthy wild populations. That meant that there needs to be a method to remove the hatchery fish we planted*. The ODFW has seen in-river commercial harvest by gill net as the answer to that conundrum. Gill nets and netters became quasi-contractors acting as a management tool, doing the ODFW's work removing excess hatchery fish.

So, we have developed a group of commercial fishermen who only harvest, never plant, and who feel entitled to the mission since they have been coddled as a tool of fisheries management.

If we waved the magic wand tomorrow and all commercial fishing was verboten on the river we would still need a method to remove excess hatchery fish or we will lose the hatchery fish plantings. They cost the government a lot of money and this is not a good time to cost the government money.

Could sports fishermen remove enough hatchery fish to achieve management goals? The folks at ODFW think not.

*If we could improve the hatchery product to the point that they were viable reproductively we wouldn't have this problem.
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Old 02-11-2017, 05:00 AM   #13
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Default Re: Why do we owe them a living?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HuskyKMA View Post
Looking at their Facebook pages, it appears that the argument they're gearing up for is that sport fishermen don't want the public to be able to eat salmon unless they catch it themselves. They're going to try to get the people who buy salmon at Safeway and Fred Meyer to think that if gillnetting is banned on the Columbia, they won't be able to have salmon for dinner anymore.
Most of the salmon the public gets at Safeway and Fred Meyer is not Columbia River salmon. And that won't change much because the fish packing/processing companies can get a much higher price if they ship it to the east coast and overseas. I'm speculating here.
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Old 02-11-2017, 05:13 AM   #14
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Default Re: Why do we owe them a living?

[QUOTE=crabbait;13709881]Big Picture: We plant the river with hatchery fish to somehow make up for the fact that we commercially over harvested the fish to near extinction, logged the trib habitat and ran their progeny through a hydro plant.

We found that the hatchery fish were inferior to the fish that managed to survive in the wild to the point that a wild fish spawning with a hatchery fish produced no offspring. In effect, every such spawning reduced the possibility of more wild fish. Dang...

It was determined that hatchery fish could not be allowed to spawn with wild fish if we were ever going to have healthy wild populations. That meant that there needs to be a method to remove the hatchery fish we planted*. The ODFW has seen in-river commercial harvest by gill net as the answer to that conundrum. Gill nets and netters became quasi-contractors acting as a management tool, doing the ODFW's work removing excess hatchery fish.

So, we have developed a group of commercial fishermen who only harvest, never plant, and who feel entitled to the mission since they have been coddled as a tool of fisheries management.

If we waved the magic wand tomorrow and all commercial fishing was verboten on the river we would still need a method to remove excess hatchery fish or we will lose the hatchery fish plantings. They cost the government a lot of money and this is not a good time to cost the government money.

Might help if we weren't limited to one or two fish a day.

Just a wild thought but what if hatcheries were removed, commercial gillnets were removed...seines only so the remaining hatchery fish selectively harvested. Problem solved? Isn't that what we're currently trying to do? My concern is that hatchery fish have intermingled with wild fish for so long, have there been any studies or research that concludes without question that there are actually any "wild" fish remaining?

Commercial fishermen on the Columbia River almost wiped out the salmon runs years ago...do we just let history repeat itself?
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Old 02-11-2017, 05:46 AM   #15
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Default Re: Why do we owe them a living?

Ms O, in a nutshell, they found that hatchery fish are changed by the hatchery environment but change back if they are able to produce in the wild. It is reversible.

These fish are highly adaptive.

Quote:
Just a wild thought but what if hatcheries were removed, commercial gillnets were removed...seines only so the remaining hatchery fish selectively harvested. Problem solved?
All that would be required is step one of your proposal.
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Old 02-11-2017, 05:54 AM   #16
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Default Re: Why do we owe them a living?

All we are asking is for them to change their fishing methods just like sportsmen have already done.
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Old 02-11-2017, 06:06 AM   #17
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Default Re: Why do we owe them a living?

If our limit on spring, summer and fall Chinook was failed to 2 or 3 fish a day, there would not be any need for "mop up" fisheries. We could "remove " the required amount of hatchery fish.
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Old 02-11-2017, 06:48 AM   #18
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I love to eat wild elk and venison, can I hire a comercial hunter to harvest me some? Don't think so.
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Old 02-11-2017, 07:13 AM   #19
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Default Re: Why do we owe them a living?

These gill nets are OLD SCHOOL 19th century, to be exact. It's the 21st century. It's time to Get with the NEW AGE of fishing gear.


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Old 02-11-2017, 07:31 AM   #20
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Default Re: Why do we owe them a living?

Kill nets should be eliminated entirely if people want to eat fish in the future.
They can eat seal until the runs reestablish


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Old 02-11-2017, 07:32 AM   #21
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Default Re: Why do we owe them a living?

"Why do we owe them a living?"

We don't. We also don't owe manufacturing jobs to middle America. In trying to replace what's been lost, we're going to either rev up epic inflation or start a trade war that could push us into a depression ala Smoot-Hawley. But I digress......

We should do right by the fish, sporties and commercials. Sporties provide a lot more economic input...........
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Old 02-11-2017, 07:52 AM   #22
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Default Re: Why do we owe them a living?

The money makers it would seem, are the brokers and merchants. This is where the true political push is imo. Buckmaster wants to sell his hatchery pellets, the Astoria group wants to export our Columbia Chinook at crazy prices.

I am not so sure the guys working the boats are anywhere near the income levels of the few big players. My opinion.
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Old 02-11-2017, 08:05 AM   #23
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Default Re: Why do we owe them a living?

The public owes the commercials nothing. They are a bunch of takers and do not contribute to the enhancement and building up of their so called "business". It is corporate welfare.
My favorite expression is "if you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem". OUR salmon were being depleted long before the dams. More recently, our sturgeon fishery was healthy and stable, until the gill netters got involved. Now they divert the blame to sea lions, instead their numbers started to dwindle after the commercials were allowed.
Instead of "building up their business", like the Native Americans, over the years they simply target another "less marketable" species.
They are not only part of the problem, but they have practiced a "scorched earth" policy.
Look how the fisheries have rebounded once these cry babies have been taken off of the rivers.
We owe them no apologies.
Thanks for letting me vent.
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Old 02-11-2017, 08:19 AM   #24
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Default Re: Why do we owe them a living?

This question alone, "why do we owe X a job" is too loaded in my view. I can (and do) make the same argument about Virginia coal mining, and old growth logging to name a few. I think the question is what is the ethical balance of harvest for these Columbia mainstrm salmon. The gill nets non selective nature is both unethical and against the interest of wild salmon and steelhead recovery.
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Old 02-11-2017, 08:38 AM   #25
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Default Re: Why do we owe them a living?

Looks a lot like redistribution of wealth.

Just saying....
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Old 02-11-2017, 08:45 AM   #26
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Default Re: Why do we owe them a living?

We are virtually unanimous in our desire to remove gill nets from the Columbia, wherever they might kill native salmon.
I think we are on a slow train to achieving our goal, but I don't understand why some think that the gill netters should agree with us. The BIG PICTURE to them is the tens of thousands of dollars they have in equipment, and their family member's ability to prosper. They're not evil men and women.
We owe them nothing, but a little empathy for their loss of a way of life wouldn't hurt.
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Old 02-11-2017, 08:57 AM   #27
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Default Re: Why do we owe them a living?

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Originally Posted by DB Crouper View Post
We are virtually unanimous in our desire to remove gill nets from the Columbia, wherever they might kill native salmon.
I think we are on a slow train to achieving our goal, but I don't understand why some think that the gill netters should agree with us. The BIG PICTURE to them is the tens of thousands of dollars they have in equipment, and their family member's ability to prosper. They're not evil men and women.
We owe them nothing, but a little empathy for their loss of a way of life wouldn't hurt.
Manipulators (politicians/lobbyists) love empathy . . because they will twist it into putting words in your mouth that . . you really agree with them. If you let these folks pull on your heart strings, then they feel emboldened to push harder until you cave in . . after all, you agreed . . you feel for them, so don't be so hard on them. And that turns into . . let's just get back to the way it was before.

No chance.
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Old 02-11-2017, 09:03 AM   #28
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Default Re: Why do we owe them a living?

I started in the fish business 45 years back, and they have been juggling this resource ever since, and all involved new very well it was going down hill..
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Old 02-11-2017, 09:25 AM   #29
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Default Re: Why do we owe them a living?

From the first actions to regulate/ban gillnets from the LCR, gillnetters have used the same tactic, and that's perception, it has been very successful and the best part is you don't need facts.
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Old 02-11-2017, 09:35 AM   #30
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Default Re: Why do we owe them a living?

Hey let us not forget that Jesus was a Gill Netter.

I love this considering they were cast netting and purse seining in the Bible.


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Old 02-11-2017, 09:36 AM   #31
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Default Re: Why do we owe them a living?

All talk and no action will result in just that, no action! We need to man up and get someone to produce a commercial on what gillnetters do to harm the ESA listed Salmon PERIOD! CCA? NW Steelhead? Somebody, I'll donate, how about you?
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Old 02-11-2017, 10:00 AM   #32
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Default Re: Why do we owe them a living?

April 4th gives the legislators plenty enough time to react and introduce legislation to fix the circumventing commission.


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Old 02-11-2017, 10:16 AM   #33
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April 4th gives the legislators plenty enough time to react and introduce legislation to fix the circumventing commission.


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It's really not that complicated, appointed special interest beaurocrates are undoing the work of the elected legislature.
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Old 02-11-2017, 10:44 AM   #34
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Default Re: Why do we owe them a living?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stick'em View Post
All we are asking is for them to change their fishing methods just like sportsmen have already done.
This is I how see it, except for the fact that sports were FORCED to change the method immediately. The commercial fleet has been given adequate time and MONEY to prepare for the changes! I for one am not giving them one more cent until they are forced to change to the agreed terms. Guess I'll be eating trout for awhile.....
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Old 02-11-2017, 09:02 PM   #35
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Default Re: Why do we owe them a living?

May Be wrong, but during the last couple weeks I read that only 42 gilnetters made over 10,000 dollars last season.
Not much of a living wage for the bottom dwellers.

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Old 02-11-2017, 09:18 PM   #36
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Default Re: Why do we owe them a living?

The majority of the money to manage these fish does not come from the gillnet community. It's a dying way of life for a minority yet they seem to have a voice much louder the rest of us in managing these fish. Seems like the solution is to find a way to turn the tables on them but how???? Maybe a media campaign is needed to shine a bright light on this issue for all to see, not just the people directly affected.
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Old 02-11-2017, 10:32 PM   #37
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Even if you don't buy fish or fish products harvested by them - if you're fishing the columbia basin, you get to pay them via that stupid endorsement. Let them troll the ocean with long lines and barbless hooks, and only keep the first XXX of fish they catch, fin or no fin. Short season, reasonable quota. The handful of commercial license holders get the lions share of the harvestable quota, which is horsehockey. Tens of thousands of license holders between Oregon and Washington, yet a handful of people get to pillage the runs and sporties get the scraps, and we get to subsidize their welfare, and they got Youngs Bay closed to all angling just to give them more of a leg up.

I'd be fine if that $10 went to a job training program, if any of those guys was actually making their living by fishing the C. They're not - and I don't feel like paying another tax to fund people with an entitlement mentality. They feel entitled to the bulk of the hatchery run, they feel entitled to put gill nets in our river and hoover up a public resource that gets paid for by the tax payers and sport anglers, which is then packaged up and sold elsewhere by in large.

We get to pay for hatcheries - so they get to reap the benefits. Unfair doesn't begin to describe the situation.
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Old 02-11-2017, 10:45 PM   #38
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So at one point in history there was commercial duck hunting.

Thousands and thousands of birds brought down with what were essentially cannons. Like 4 gauge guns mounted on wheels.

Entire flocks hammered at once.

The impact on waterfowl populations serious and grave.

And at one point commercial harvest was outlawed.

Yet sport hunters are still allowed.

I listened to a guy give pro gillnet testimony and I kept hearing the position like somehow commercial fishermen are owed an existence on the river.

Why?

Why are they owed a living?

Maybe the reality is, they need to go the way of the commercial duck hunters.



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To be fair, punt guns were often hard mounted to comparatively small boats so they could take the ducks while floating rather than land mount. There is some video of these guns on youtube and they are awesome.

No arguments though about the rest of the conclusion. Time for salmon gillnetters at least to go the way of the dodo and the commercial duck hunter.
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Old 02-11-2017, 10:56 PM   #39
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Default Re: Why do we owe them a living?

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May Be wrong, but during the last couple weeks I read that only 42 gilnetters made over 10,000 dollars last season.
Not much of a living wage for the bottom dwellers.
Those top 42 licenses though did pretty well. Commercial value of the Salmon harvest last year was $7.8 million. A statement saying only 42 made more than $10k likely doesn't take into account the number of licenses that stayed idle for the year. Per boat take with $7.8 million in catch would run in the hundreds of thousands per boat which isn't too shabby for a few weeks of fishing a couple days a week.

Not defending the gillnetters but some statements can be seriously misleading.
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Old 02-12-2017, 12:26 AM   #40
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Default Re: Why do we owe them a living?

letters to the editor in your newspaper are free and most get published. that gets the message out quickly and efficiently.
the politicians that need votes read newspapers not forums.

we are making some progress and i guess we will get a full 20% of the last fish that comes upstream someday. i hope it isnt just a head or tail.

then the fight begins over who is entitled to the branches when we cut down the last big old tree.
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Old 02-12-2017, 10:54 AM   #41
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April 4th gives the legislators plenty enough time to react and introduce legislation to fix the circumventing commission.


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And with an emergency clause it becomes effective upon signing - which could be before 4/4.
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Old 02-12-2017, 11:01 AM   #42
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And with an emergency clause it becomes effective upon signing - which could be before 4/4.


4/4 is just about halftime for the current legislature. The first bills that would go in effect July will have been voted on and passed. I really don't see a bill like this to sweep through the OR legislature till May or the closing minutes of the session, but I do believe if the legislators are forced to pass new laws regarding Gill Nets the Congress would not be as sympathetic to them.


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Old 02-12-2017, 11:05 AM   #43
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4/4 is just about halftime for the current legislature. The first bills that would go in effect July will have been voted on and passed. I really don't see a bill like this to sweep through the OR legislature till May or the closing minutes of the session, but I do believe if the legislators are forced to pass new laws regarding Gill Nets the Congress would not be as sympathetic to them.


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I don't see it happening that soon - or at all. But bills without an effective date don't become law until January 1st of the following year. Bills with effective dates become effective on the specified date (if signed prior to then). Bills with emergency clauses become effective upon signing.
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Old 02-12-2017, 11:50 AM   #44
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Those top 42 licenses though did pretty well. Commercial value of the Salmon harvest last year was $7.8 million. A statement saying only 42 made more than $10k likely doesn't take into account the number of licenses that stayed idle for the year. Per boat take with $7.8 million in catch would run in the hundreds of thousands per boat which isn't too shabby for a few weeks of fishing a couple days a week.

Not defending the gillnetters but some statements can be seriously misleading.
I would venture to guess that the $7.8 million was the fish packers/processors take. I have yet to see a gillnetter that appears to be rich. I could be wrong.
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Old 02-12-2017, 12:42 PM   #45
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Taken from other posts and my lousy memory. There are 200 licenses of which 89 reported income from netting. That means 47 made less than $10K. If we took out the top 5 of the top tier and averaged the rest, it probably wouldn't be much over $10K. I'm sure someone has the numbers in order.

The 7.8 million is shared mostly by processors, shippers and retailers, little of it ended up in the fishermans pockets. Look at how much money Pacific Seafood contributed to the last election. They were looking out for themselves.
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Old 02-12-2017, 01:02 PM   #46
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Looking at their Facebook pages, it appears that the argument they're gearing up for is that sport fishermen don't want the public to be able to eat salmon unless they catch it themselves. They're going to try to get the people who buy salmon at Safeway and Fred Meyer to think that if gillnetting is banned on the Columbia, they won't be able to have salmon for dinner anymore.
It was interesting that when my wife and I were at the CCA booth at the show on Thursday, paying our membership dues, an 'older' gentleman with a full beard walked up and said just that. When I told them that no one was advocating the end of commercial fishing and that the public would be able to buy it at the same stores they are buying it at now, he freaked out and started getting really belligerent and screaming about how instead of trying to get rid of the nets, we should all be working together. When I said we were by advocating for the implimentation of SB 830 I thought he was going to get violent. Really weird scene. Felt much better after he stormed off while yelling about how he was a sportsman. Joe Camo maybe? jc
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Old 02-12-2017, 01:50 PM   #47
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Default Re: Why do we owe them a living?

What I find interesting as I watch this all from afar. The commercial fishermen and their sympathisers keep saying that we need to work together, but from what I can see their working together means they go on as usual and the sportsfishers make all the changes. I have not yet seen or heard of any of them offering up ways to actually work together where they are making any concessions. What am I missing?
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Old 02-12-2017, 03:06 PM   #48
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Default Re: Why do we owe them a living?

There is a very simple two word answer to the OP question. That answer is, "We don't". It is time we stopped acting like we do.
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Old 02-12-2017, 03:12 PM   #49
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Default Re: Why do we owe them a living?

Part of the reason for the kid gloves is the fact that this action started when unemployment was headline stuff and the administration was doing everything possible to save jobs.
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Old 02-13-2017, 03:45 AM   #50
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Default Re: Why do we owe them a living?

In an effort to present a commercial fishermen's perspective, I will paraphrase some comments from an article.

The comments are from a person who has been fishing most of his life. He has a full time job and does this part time when they are able to fish. In off seasons, he re cycles fishing gear and boat parts because of how expensive they are. His wife works too.


Says "a boat would cost about $200,000.00 at today's prices. Nets are about $3,000.00 each. He has 15 nets. Plus there are all the licenses to renew each year along with fuel and maintenance. Launch fees, travel costs are also part of the expenses."

"Most fishermen have multiple ways to catch fish or crab. They have to work for or five fisheries and hope it will produce a profit. But they also have to have the gear for those different methods of fishing. "

Claims to "want as little impact as possible because they want to have some thing to come back to to fish. Felt one way to do that is to use a tangle net in the spring. This is a small mesh net that doesn't fit behind the gills. It wraps around their mouth so we have a lower impact rate. We can catch more fish and do less harm." They use these tangle nets in the spring and for fall silvers.

The "boats are required to have revival boxes that hold cold water and has a higher oxygen content. Not all fish caught are kept so those that are intended to go back in to the water are revived in the box in order to bring them back full so predators like sea lions waiting below can not eat them easily. "

They "try to fish on the front end or back end of a summer steelhead run to avoid catching the ESA protected steelhead. They do not want to mess with them. Too small and they are targeting the bigger salmon. But when we do catch one occasionally we try to handle them best way to revive them. We had classes on how to handle those. "

Their "hope is to obtain a better share and more time on the river to do a job that one time produced a decent income for local families. People do not realise the amount of dollars commercial boats could produce. He makes $20,000.00-$30,000.00 per year but puts most back in to the boat or a small family business. But if they could fish like they did years ago, they would be having seasons of $150,000.00-$200,000.00 with the amount of fish that are passing by even today. "

He felt the "Lower Columbia River communities do not gain much business from outside sport fishermen. They come from the east, stop by the larger food stores in the bigger cities for groceries, maybe fill their tanks with fuel. They spend money at the launch, maybe buy beer to drink, or rent rooms/cabins for several weeks. But we are the ones who live here, paying the property taxes and supporting the local businesses. "

"If there was a viable fishery, there would be more boats, more jobs, more buying stations and more people to transport the fish caught. These small communities may not be booming, but the extra dollars the commercial boats could bring in will keep these communities alive."

An interesting perspective from a commercial fisherman. It would be nice to sit down with him and talk about common goals we could build on.
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Old 02-13-2017, 04:30 AM   #51
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Default Re: Why do we owe them a living?

Quote:
Claims to "want as little impact as possible because they want to have some thing to come back to to fish. Felt one way to do that is to use a tangle net in the spring. This is a small mesh net that doesn't fit behind the gills. It wraps around their mouth so we have a lower impact rate. We can catch more fish and do less harm." They use these tangle nets in the spring and for fall silvers.
A salmon tangle net is a steelhead gillnet.
Quote:
The "boats are required to have revival boxes that hold cold water and has a higher oxygen content.
Revival boxes are only used when their use is mandated which is rarely (springer fishing).
Quote:
Their "hope is to obtain a better share and more time on the river to do a job that one time produced a decent income for local families.
Then they need to be actively pursuing less lethal harvest methods.
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Old 02-13-2017, 06:26 AM   #52
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Default Re: Why do we owe them a living?

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Originally Posted by DogZilla15 View Post
Taken from other posts and my lousy memory. There are 200 licenses of which 89 reported income from netting. That means 47 made less than $10K. If we took out the top 5 of the top tier and averaged the rest, it probably wouldn't be much over $10K. I'm sure someone has the numbers in order.

The 7.8 million is shared mostly by processors, shippers and retailers, little of it ended up in the fishermans pockets. Look at how much money Pacific Seafood contributed to the last election. They were looking out for themselves.
Fair point. Hadn't really thought of that too much. So pulled up some numbers. The harvest for 2016 was 1.363 million pounds. I haven't been able to find the ex-vessel price for 2016 but going to assume that it was similar to 2015 which for net caught salmon was $2.49 so the share of the $7.8 million to the netters would be $3.38 million or a bit less than half the total value of the harvest. By comparison troll caught salmon which is of obviously higher quality had an ex-vessel over twice that of net caught at $5.14/lb.

Springer has a MUCH higher value at the start of the season with ex-vessel paid by processors of $11/lb.

Overall the salmon fishery is the second largest fishery in Oregon. The nets are a still a significant portion of that with more than half the pounds going to nets. The troll boats get more money though.
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Old 02-13-2017, 06:47 AM   #53
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Default Re: Why do we owe them a living?

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Originally Posted by Big Bubba View Post
In an effort to present a commercial fishermen's perspective, I will paraphrase some comments from an article.

The comments are from a person who has been fishing most of his life. He has a full time job and does this part time when they are able to fish. In off seasons, he re cycles fishing gear and boat parts because of how expensive they are. His wife works too.


Says "a boat would cost about $200,000.00 at today's prices. Nets are about $3,000.00 each. He has 15 nets. Plus there are all the licenses to renew each year along with fuel and maintenance. Launch fees, travel costs are also part of the expenses."

"Most fishermen have multiple ways to catch fish or crab. They have to work for or five fisheries and hope it will produce a profit. But they also have to have the gear for those different methods of fishing. "

Claims to "want as little impact as possible because they want to have some thing to come back to to fish. Felt one way to do that is to use a tangle net in the spring. This is a small mesh net that doesn't fit behind the gills. It wraps around their mouth so we have a lower impact rate. We can catch more fish and do less harm." They use these tangle nets in the spring and for fall silvers.

The "boats are required to have revival boxes that hold cold water and has a higher oxygen content. Not all fish caught are kept so those that are intended to go back in to the water are revived in the box in order to bring them back full so predators like sea lions waiting below can not eat them easily. "

They "try to fish on the front end or back end of a summer steelhead run to avoid catching the ESA protected steelhead. They do not want to mess with them. Too small and they are targeting the bigger salmon. But when we do catch one occasionally we try to handle them best way to revive them. We had classes on how to handle those. "

Their "hope is to obtain a better share and more time on the river to do a job that one time produced a decent income for local families. People do not realise the amount of dollars commercial boats could produce. He makes $20,000.00-$30,000.00 per year but puts most back in to the boat or a small family business. But if they could fish like they did years ago, they would be having seasons of $150,000.00-$200,000.00 with the amount of fish that are passing by even today. "

He felt the "Lower Columbia River communities do not gain much business from outside sport fishermen. They come from the east, stop by the larger food stores in the bigger cities for groceries, maybe fill their tanks with fuel. They spend money at the launch, maybe buy beer to drink, or rent rooms/cabins for several weeks. But we are the ones who live here, paying the property taxes and supporting the local businesses. "

"If there was a viable fishery, there would be more boats, more jobs, more buying stations and more people to transport the fish caught. These small communities may not be booming, but the extra dollars the commercial boats could bring in will keep these communities alive."

An interesting perspective from a commercial fisherman. It would be nice to sit down with him and talk about common goals we could build on.

This is just an example of the "poor me you owe me a living" argument. While I do feel for those that have clung to an industry that has long over lived its realistic life span, It isn't our problem to worry about what happens to them, it is our problem, all of our problem, to get the nets out of the river. Change the commercial fishery to hook and line and sell however many permits they deem necessary. They will sell, and there will be commercial fishing. People will adapt or a new industry will take over. Just like anything else. We aren't responsible to subsidize anything or owe them anything.
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Old 02-13-2017, 07:13 AM   #54
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Default Re: Why do we owe them a living?

Woke up this morning after a crazy dreaming night. My dream consisted of the kill nets and them harvesting the fur bags.

So the nets kill most if not everything that they encounter. Does this apply to the fur bags too?

like i said, crazy dream
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Old 02-13-2017, 07:16 AM   #55
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Woke up this morning after a crazy dreaming night. My dream consisted of the kill nets and them harvesting the fur bags.

So the nets kill most if not everything that they encounter. Does this apply to the fur bags too?

like i said, crazy dream
I doubt it. I believe if anything that the fur bags tear up the nets. That said, if they DID kill sea lions, there is a great angle to get the greenies on board with getting them banned.
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Old 02-13-2017, 07:19 AM   #56
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Woke up this morning after a crazy dreaming night. My dream consisted of the kill nets and them harvesting the fur bags.

So the nets kill most if not everything that they encounter. Does this apply to the fur bags too?

like i said, crazy dream
Need some higher tensile strength material I'm afraid. Titanium nets maybe? Carbon fiber? Bet you could use larger openings that allow all fish to pass through just fine but make short work of furbags...
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Old 02-13-2017, 08:08 AM   #57
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Default Re: Why do we owe them a living?

I, like many who went through the last crash, had to adapt. In my industry, there were over 14,000 licensed individuals in 2006. That number dropped to just over 3000 three years later. That's a big haircut! In the down years, my income dropped by about 70%. Tough times, but I made it through. Everything I do now, cost more money. I had to hire an assistant and continuing education cost a lot more.

The difficult times lasted for 4 years, but most who made it through are making more money than they did before, even with cost of doing business going up.

My point, adapt or move on. If you adapt, it won't be easy, but you may come out the other side doing better, and feeling better about what you are doing.

Just my
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Old 02-13-2017, 09:10 AM   #58
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[QUOTE=devonian;13720265]I, like many who went through the last crash, had to adapt. In my industry, there were over 14,000 licensed individuals in 2006. That number dropped to just over 3000 three years later. That's a big haircut! In the down years, my income dropped by about 70%. Tough times, but I made it through. Everything I do now, cost more money. I had to hire an assistant and continuing education cost a lot more.

The difficult times lasted for 4 years, but most who made it through are making more money than they did before, even with cost of doing business going up.

My point, adapt or move on. If you adapt, it won't be easy, but you may come out the other side doing better, and feeling better about what you are doing.


Just my [/QUOTE

I'm not trying to be a wise guy truly. To start off, I agree with you. On another note, It'd be interesting to hear your take when your 65, retired and on a fixed income. When your occupation is dried and gone and your hand can't pull dollars out of your wallet because your hand are spent after 45 years of abusing them. Earn your do's now.
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Old 02-13-2017, 09:32 AM   #59
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Default Re: Why do we owe them a living?

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I'm not trying to be a wise guy truly. To start off, I agree with you. On another note, It'd be interesting to hear your take when your 65, retired and on a fixed income. When your occupation is dried and gone and your hand can't pull dollars out of your wallet because your hand are spent after 45 years of abusing them. Earn your do's now.
Not 100% sure where you are going with this, but are you implying that not only do we owe the netters a current living by subsidizing an antiquated way of life, but we should also be responsible for them beyond the normal avenues, after they retire?
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Old 02-13-2017, 09:41 AM   #60
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Not 100% sure where you are going with this, but are you implying that not only do we owe the netters a current living by subsidizing an antiquated way of life, but we should also be responsible for them beyond the normal avenues, after they retire?
no no no. Sorry for the confusion. I was implying that if your occupation fails or your body does either you need a back up plan (which seems to be the case in your situation) or you'll need to awful lucky when your reach retirement age. A back up plan would be key because with the cost of living will pound the heck out of you in your old age.

to put in my world, no Columbia endorsement this year. The day of donating my bucks to the netters is over
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