ethical questions

Grits · 02-14-2001, 04:04 PM

I am planning on taking my 3 1/2 year old out sturgeon fishing this weekend. I know he doesn't need a liscence but he does need a tag. My dilema is: Is it ethical to buy him a tag and put a pole out for him knowing he will need a lot of help to get the fish in? I think he could reel but I would have to help him hold the rod. I know that if a game warden caught me letting him help reel and he didn't have a tag that I could get in trouble so that leads me to believe that a game warden would consider a pole in the water for him to be legal as long as he had a tag. What is all of your opinions on this?

Salmonator · 02-14-2001, 04:18 PM

I say start them early but don't burn them out! I think that if they can hold and reel with a little help with lifting on the front grip from me then it's ok on my boat. Then there's the question of setting the hook. But it is legal to set a hook then hand the pole off so i'm guessing legally the whole scenario is kosh, but I guess it all boils down to personal ethics. If the kid doesn't want anything to do with going fishing and is just along for your fish tagging purposes then I would consider it unethical. Sal

nivtup · 02-14-2001, 04:47 PM

I made my kids wait til they could bring in a legal fish with very little help.

Meaning if they can sit and hold the rod, and reel in the fish, without letting go. I set the hook for the little guys.

Sound fair?

RichH · 02-14-2001, 05:14 PM

A couple of years ago I took my then 5 year old springer fishing at OC. Bought the tag and the whole nine yards, put out a diver and prawn for her and wouldn't ya know, she gets the only bite of the day. I sat her on my lap and held the rod while she reeled but towards the end she pooped out so I took over to land it. I wound up tagging it since it was me that got the fish in the boat. Ethically and legally I believe I did the right thing. Had she done the final landing I would have had her tag it. Fishcop, any input?

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Rich H

Phish_on · 02-14-2001, 05:24 PM

it's all good ... if you will have two rods, you'd better have two tags - that's all.

Just be sure you know the kids SS#, I learned that the hard way (someone elses kid!)

Trout,myster · 02-14-2001, 06:05 PM

I'm with Sal on this one. Sturgeon can be a handful even for a grownup, but if your boy wants to fish it's hard to say no. 3 1/2 is kind of a little guy for that and I'd personally probably say "let's just share Dad's pole". The law doesn't say how many times you can hand a rod off that I'm aware of. Not being a cop (Fishcop can probably help us out here), but if I were and I motored up along side you, I'd seriously question the situation of your boy being able to handle a sturgeon rod and sturgeon on his own. Even though you're intent is good, the visual from the other side of the fence will likely be different.

My $.02

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Troutmyster

Joe Schwab · 02-14-2001, 06:24 PM

Heres an opinion from a 25 year retired fishcop and I will defend it to any other fishcop who wants to differ. Kids who show the interest need to be given the opportunity. Yes they need a tag. Yes they need to have some understanding of handling the gear and they need to be tending it, not 100 yards up the beach playing with the dog. But any self respecting game warden would love to see youngsters enjoying the sport. Lets face it these kids grow up to buy licenses and pay the bills that fund Fish and Wildlife programs. My own 37 year old son caught his first 25# springer at 10 years of age with a lot of help from Dad, Mom and a kindly fisherman who happened to be there with his net. But to this day that was "his" fish, and no one elses. How many guides do you see out there grab the rod , set the hook and then hand off the rod to some perfectly capable adult. Its legal and apparently "ethical" at least in Oregon. Go for it and enjoy. Most fishcops have higher priority issues in mind.

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Bait O' Eggs · 02-14-2001, 06:28 PM

Take the kid fishing, give them there own pole and tell the cops to suck an egg if they harass you. If there is nothing wrong with fishing for oversize fish, then I guess there is nothing wrong with targeting undersize fish, for a pint sized fisherman. I got a 3 1/2 year old also and he would lose interest soon and be stacking and sorting all the fishing tackle, but he could have a pole in the water as long as he wanted if he was in the boat with me.

C&R · 02-14-2001, 08:20 PM

I'll go with this as you are wondering about the ethics. You must think there is something wrong and you are looking not to have any issues. If you want to have the child fishing go to a trout pond have at it and let him do all the work.

Fish Cop · 02-14-2001, 09:02 PM

I agree with all of the above. I have kids of my own and I encourage them to enjoy the outdoors. I agree with Capt. Hook, there are higher priorities out there. I like to see people teaching their kids about the outdoors.

I don't like to see people teaching their kids to abuse the law by using their kids tag just to get a second fish in the boat(which doesn't sound like what is happening here). Every kid is different but from my experience three and a half is a little young to stay at it for very long (the kid needs to be with the pole). Personally I would probably just share a pole. If I had a three and a half year old fishing with his or her own pole I wouldn't fault the officer who motored up if he asked me if the kid was fishing. Funny thing about ethics is there are lots of answers. Kids learn from what they see. I don't think I would tell a cop to suck an egg while my kid was watching.
Grits,
Good luck catching the kid a fish

Fish Cop

OR Coast Range · 02-15-2001, 08:11 AM

Why does he have to fish for sturgeon. Put a trout pole out with a hot shot and fish for perch - its not like he is going to care at 3 years old and with a little help from dad could easily land it.

zipper · 02-15-2001, 08:28 AM

My kids have had to wait until they could handle sitting in a boat all day without boredom overwhelming the moment. I also feel strongly about the ability to swim and have a fighting chance at survival should the unthinkable happen. My oldest was 10 before I took her Sturgeon fishing, her 1st fish was 44" - she routinely outfishes me now. My other two are waiting until age 10 as well - only for the big water - smallies, trout and perch beware.....

Grits · 02-15-2001, 08:29 AM

Thank you for everyones input so far. I guess the reason I don't want to share a rod is because he will want to check his bait about every 5 minutes. If he has his own pole that is no problem he will learn in time you have to keep the pole in water to catch fish. And the reason he wants to go sturgeon fishing instead of trout is because "he wants to catch a biiig fish like dad not a baby fish." His words not mine.

fishbait · 02-15-2001, 01:48 PM

Grits,,
Take your kid..
Buy him a tag..
Can he swim, lifejacket important.

My suggestion, depending on the current, lighten up his gear a little, let him fish for sturgeon, take a trout/steelhead rod in case he wants to change gear. If he catches a sturgeon, let him handle as much as he can. If its a legal and you decide to keep it, if you actually landed the fish, put it on your tag, if he lands it, use his tag. Also, with kids, be understanding if he get bored, you are better off cutting your trip short than turning him off to fishing with dad. Raising you kid to enjoy fishing and more important fishing with dad is more important that those last few hours of fishing time.... my 0.02 worth

Phish_on · 02-15-2001, 02:46 PM

make that PFD "required by law" - in Oregon. At all times - moving or anchored!

"Junk food" was always the highlight for my boy. Still is, I guess!

Grant Scheele · 02-15-2001, 06:57 PM

Anyone suggesting sharing a rod with a 3 or 4 year old hasn't fished with one.

My 3 year old son hooked several Fall chinook by himself this season. Those fish weighed almost as much as he did so I ended up landing the fish for him. (all except the jack that he did from bobber down to net) I dare anyone to try to tell him that all of those fish weren't his. HE would argue with you and you would lose.

I think that those who mentioned the ethics of this was related to intention are on the right track. If I take my son's tag to fill it while he plays on the bottom of the boat or in the sand, I would consider that unethical. If my son didn't let out his out his own bobber it didn't get put out. Simple as that. That's not to say that he didn't let go of the rod a few times to play with an occasional bullhead. You can't expect them to have the same amout of concentration as you and I think a Game Cop would agree. And I also think a good Game Cop could tell the differnce between a Father and his kid enjoying some fishing time or a Father using his kids tag to catch more fish.
My point is that I do not feel unethical in limiting my boat one time this last Fall even though I had to reel in a couple of fish for my little son. I now have a lifetime fishing buddie as long as I continue to make it fun. What a great feeling.

[This message has been edited by O.Mykiss (edited 02-15-2001).]

Steelheader69 · 02-15-2001, 08:40 PM

I feel if your child(ren) want to go fishing, then take them. If they're only coming along because you want an extra tag, then don't.

I have two kids, daughter who is 6 and son who is 4. I take them fishing all the time (my son just caught a 5lb trout a few weeks ago). What I usually do is find a place that I can anchor up and fish (I prefer to have them in close when I'm fishing so I know they won't wander off). Usually I'll have two plug rods set up (they're my plunking rods, so I can run just about anything on them). What I'll do is have them pick out what they want for a lure. I'll set up the rod with lure they've picked (my daughter always picks out a pink hotshot and my son a rag/corkie set up). I'll stick the rods in the rod holders with lure just above water. I then let them release the spool and tell them how long to let lure out before they reengage the spool. This way they're in control. Then, when they're fighting a fish, I do my best to let them have complete control on rod. They will get tired, but I've never scolded them for giving up, I tell them they've done a good job and either fight fish until they're ready to take rod back or fight it all the way in. Both my kids are fishing fanatics and always ask to go fishing. That's the way I plan to keep it. (I always keep them in PFD's, no matter how much they complain)

Good luck and I'd suggest bringing some lighter setups. Bring along some powerbait and see if they can get some little fish.

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You haven't lived til you've rowed a cataraft. Friends don't let friends run Outcasts.

Salmonator · 02-15-2001, 09:14 PM

Phish, a jacket is not required on an anchored boat unless they changed the regs for 2001. They are required on all boats "underway" which is under power OR free drifting.

O.Mykiss, you must have done SOMETHING unethical if you limited your boat

Fishhead · 02-15-2001, 09:59 PM

My kid loves to plunk at Meldrum bar. He can feed the ducks,watch other guys fish,play near his rod and I dont have to worry about a life jacket. His mom makes him wear one though when he's near the water. I've been talking him since he was 6 and he had my help landing his first steelhead. I made sure the guys down there knew that it was his fish and he was the one who was going to land it since I had the net. Go have fun but dont catch all the fish!!ha ha .....Fishhead Vic

Fishhead · 02-15-2001, 10:01 PM

My kid loves to plunk at Meldrum bar. He can feed the ducks,watch other guys fish,play near his rod and I dont have to worry about a life jacket. His mom makes him wear one though when he's near the water. I've been taking him since he was 6 and he had my help landing his first steelhead. I made sure the guys down there knew that it was his fish and he was the one who was going to land it since I had the net. Go have fun but dont catch all the fish!!ha ha .....Fishhead Vic

[This message has been edited by Fishhead (edited 02-15-2001).]

TH · 02-15-2001, 11:00 PM

Good topic, I have yet to take my son oversize sturgen fishing, but he does everything else. He has been fishing with us since he was 3... w/ a tag... I think the invention of portable gameboys, magnet chess boards and skippbo are the three greatest inventions in the world.. have fun, enjoy the time together... that's what it's about!

TH www.thcustomrods.com

Pilar · 02-16-2001, 07:42 AM

Thanks Grits, great thread. I get all teary eyed when I think about my litle girl's first fishing thing. The big smile haunts me to this day.

We went camping at Clear Lake on Mt. Hood when she was 4. It was mostly a camping trip, but I did manage to get up at BCD and drag a fly behind my rowboat every morning to catch my breakfast. The rest of the day was all kids and dogs and camping.

After several days of this my little girl began to ask a lot of questions about fishing. So we went for a ride around to the dam end of the lake with a box of worms and a rod.

I knew a spot in the tail race where wild Brookies and a few rainbows could be found. My daughter got her first fishing lesson and managed the rod pretty well for her first time. She squealed with delight when a 15" rainbow grabbed her offered worm and took off down the creek. She gave it to me for breakfast. That was the best tasting trout I ever ate. This took all of 15 minutes and she has been my little trout killer ever since.

As a rule now, I try to find something for the kids that is pretty engaging. Crabbing is a great one. Teaches following the rules, gaging crabs, releasing little ones and patience, waiting for the pots to fill up. We even beach the boat and dig for clams while waiting.

I guess sturgeon is OK but may require a bit more patience than you find in a typical little kid. I vote for crabbin, St Louis ponds for pan fish or trout anywhere as a break in for kids.

Thanks for the memories

The bend is your friend!

[This message has been edited by Pilar (edited 02-16-2001).]