Practice what you preach...

[Big Willie]

Hey David Johnson, I have seen the pictures of you and your clients holding natives out of the water. Not good. Also, in your post regarding your catches you state long leaders and small baits. Bait? I hope you meant small plugs. I don't have bait in my boat this time of year beacuse the hatchery run is slowing down and natives are coming in. I hope you are doing what you post, past pics don't reflect that.
-Gary

[THE REEL HEY_YALL]

Since I haven't caught either yet....fill me in on the long leader argument and "bait" argument, as in what's so bad? Well I did catch a teeny brat out of a small river, but he was about a pound and he doesn't qualify in my book. Just wanting info.

Ease up there big willie. Although I'm not speaking for David, I will state that using bait while drift fishing in my experience won't hurt fish. I've NEVER deep-hooked a fish while drift fishing, with or without bait. Always a nice corner lip hookup.

However, I would never use a diver and bait combination this time of year - which is a big concern and has been mentioned quite frequently on this BB. A diver and bait should only be used in the peak of the hatchery run because the method simply backs the offering down the throat of the fish.

Don't get too fired up.

[birdhunter]

I'm gonna have to disagree with you there E. Dave about the whole dive and bait thing. If you fish it correctly you probably won't have any problems. I know that most people I have talked to seem to agree with you that it is harder to release fish caught on diver and bait (I also know I'm gonna catch hell for what follows but...). However, In all my past experience with every single fish I have caught on diver and bait, I have never had a problem releasing wild fish. I catch a lot of wild fish and every single one has been hooked in the lip. Same with hatchery fish. Only one hatchery steelhead in all my years of fishing was hooked really deep. It may have to do with the way I set the hook. I usually hold my pole and can feel when the fish is on. I don't wait for it to slam it, but as soon as I can tell the fish has the bait in it's mouth, I pull up till I feel pressue and set. I've actually had more trouble releasing wild fish caught on plugs. Often they have all three hooks in their mouth and are essentially hooked closed.
Still, I agree with Big Willie about the picutures. I have never taken a fish I was going to release out of the water. I want to cause as little stress as I can to the natives. I think you would all agree that they should be treated with the utmost care.
I too read the post on David Johnson's board. It's his board and he can post whatever he wants, but it did sound like more of a bashing session on another guide.
Just my 2 cents.

[smoky]

Big Willie:

I fished with Dave recently on the Clack and ran into him on the Nestuca this Sunday. He did not pull shrimp on either river. And Im pretty sure he did not drift eggs on the Nestuca.

The pictures from the Clack that we took and posted on his board were hatchery fish.

His reference to bait w/long leaders is probably refering to drift fishing with eggs on a non-coastal river.

Im pretty sure his suggestion about not using bait is in regards to shrimp/baitdiver on coastal waters.

Does drift fishing eggs on the Clack classify as "pulling bait" over natives?

PS.Had a great time with pro guide Marty Peterson fishing/catching on the Nestuca this past Sunday.
Both Dave and Marty are fine gentlemen and Id fish with them again.

[onstep]

In Dave's defense here I've done quite a few trips with him from Bouy 10 to natives in April and NEVER has he mis-handled a fish. The fish are either cut loose and never removed from the water or landed in an over sized net. By using an oversized soft net like a Beckman (sp)he causes no stress and no damage to these fish. If a wild fish is removed from the water it only lasts for a second or two. The fish are not placed in an adverse in environment.
How many fish are actually deep hooked from bait while drift fishing? Based on my expierance and the expierances of the professionals I have fished with drift fishing results in relatively shallow hooking. David as far as I know does not fish diver and bait past December, if at all.
The plugs that Dave is using are siwash not treble which do cause tons of stress to fish.
Bob Toman for the last 2 season I believe has been doing a mortality study on spring chinook for the ODFW in the horseshoe on the willamette. My understanding from that study that fish that are hooked by lures and plugs have a higher mortality than bait caught fish including those bleeding from the gills. The reason is the trauma and build up of lactic acid in the fish. Which would seem to make sense regarding the violent or territoral strikes that plugs often evoke.
As far as guide bashing goes, it was better for that entire situation be handled like it was than in a more personal manner in which Mr. Mather would have faced. He had developed a reputation for diver and bait fishing for natives right, wrong, or in different. I believe he got the message and not only from Dave but many of the other Pros in the area. I agree that everyone must be accountable for the actions they take on the water. Sportmen and women need to be ambassdors for using our resources properly.

[birdhunter]

Good posts guys. Just so you know I was not questioning Dave's guiding ability or ethics. I've seen him on the rivers from time to time and he's always been respectful. Great guide and fisherman. I think Big Willie was talking about some older pictures, not the one's recently put on the board. My comments about pictures were more general, not directed at him specifically. Didn't mean to imply that he mishandles his fish.

However, I do have a few things I would like to say to tanner. I do almost all of my fishing exclusively out of a drift boat. Don't insult my intelligence or ability. Couple of things you might not have thought of: 1: you can backtroll with a motor!!! Yes, in todays modern world almost anything is possible. By placing one hand on the throttle and holding the rod in my other hand I can successfully backtroll almost any river. Amazing, isn't it. 2: You can fish with someone else!! Those of us with friends like to go fishing with them. Those of us with friends who own boats really like to go fishing with them. I don't have to be rowing to be in a driftboat. That leaves both hands free to hold a rod while my buddy backtrolls. 3: Ever heard of a side-planer? Neat little device made by Luhr Jensen. Let's ya backtroll a hole from the bank! I know, what will they think of next. Granted, I don't catch a lot of fish on them, but they do work. Once again, both hands are free to hold the rod. Wow. 4: On the rare occasion that I am fishing out of a drift boat by myself I usually prop the rod up in front of me. I don't set it in a rod holder if I am using diver and bait. I want to be able to pick it up quickly. At the first tap I can drop the oars, pick up the rod, lightly apply pressure and when the time is right...Viola! A fish is on! Finally, I have to ask: where exactly did I say that I row and hold onto the rod at the same time? That would be quite an accomplishment. I am good, but not that good. Tanner, I'm flattered but you assume too much.

[Big Willie]

Geez, this is not about bashing guides or trying to stir up the debate on bait or no bait, or plugs with treble hooks. What chaps my a** is this particular guide in his postings said to take care of native fish, when on his web site on 2 occasions is holding up natives for pictures. AND while saying no to diver and bait on another post said long leaders and small baits were working good. I think guides have a responsibility to thier clients, that is pass on good habits and ethics.

[Jennie@ifish]

I know David Johnson to be a very ethical guide.
Jen

[DanS]

I'm not sure that "taking care of native fish" and picking one up for a quick photo are mutually exclusive. A fish that is landed fairly quickly, and picked up quickly for a photo, is none the worse for wear than one that was just unhooked. Just use your head and don't make a 5 minute ordeal out of it and only hold the fish above the water so it's not walloped if you happen to lose grip. Don't drag a fish you intend to release onto the rocks or sand, and don't squeeze them if they struggle against you.

Picking up a fish for a photo is no crime, and it doesn't necessarily mean somebody is treating the fish poorly. In this day of people STILL whacking native fish, a guy who picks one up for a photo and then lets it swim away is OK by me.

Fish on.........

[Gone Fishin]

In Dave's defense...

I know Dave cares about the native fish as do I. I know we both realize what a precious thing they are, and we strive to not harm them in any way.

I believe his post of long leaders and small baits was in reference to the Clackamas where mostly hatchery fish are present. As SmokeyWahlen posted, we ran into Dave on Sunday, and he was only running plugs and jigs on the Nestucca where mostly Native fish are present.

-Marty P.

[Mikie]

Hey Marty. Just saw you're picture in the Oregon - Washington outdoor magazine, kissin a native steelhead? Or you must have been giving her a little mouth to mouth to get her going, she probably had a heart attack. J.K. ;p I personally think most pro's like you would never jeopardize our most precious resource. Keep up the good work and tight line's to you and all the pro's out there. SEE YA MIKIE.

[willierower]

Ok people!
Steelhead are a lot tougher that you realize. Just go to a hatchery When they are processing fish. They dont treat them all that gentlty. Even wild fish are handled a whole lot rougher than I would handle one.
If you want to pick a fish up for a quick picture, Use one hand around the tail wrist and cradle its belly with the other hand. Only lift it a few inches from water that is at least 8 inches deep. If you happen to drop the fish it will not be injured by falling to far or hitting the bottom.

As for bait, Winter Steelhead dont actively feed. They are not in the river system long enough to need food.(Generally) As for early summer steelhead, They do feed. Rarely have I deep hooked a winter steelhead with bait of any kind. If I do hook a fish deep I cut the leader. If a fish is hooked in the eye or gills it will most likely die. If hooked in the throat it will be fine.

If people are so worried about hurting a wild fish, Just stop fishing when the hatchery run slows down. Now thats a simple solution!

[rags]

I fish a lot of plugs, divers and bait, etc. out of my driftboat. Over the years I've had more trouble releasing natives from hotshots with treble hooks than I have with bait. I can't think of any natives I have caught casting bait that are hooked deep, most are lipped hooked.I agree with the divers and bait, not a good idea with the natives. I have changed my plugs to siwash barbless hooks for the natives. The fun of plug fishing is the take down. So what if you longline release.

I agree rags - nothing like watching your rod double over! In February on through April, tell the wife to plan dinner because you're not bringin anything home. The absolute one reason I enjoy fishing the Deschutes for summer steelies is the vicious and violent takes from the fish. I rarely take anything home on that river.

And no David J, I don't lift the nates out of the water, either. I know this makes great pictures and may even book a few naive clients, but I would have to agree that lifting fish isn't in their best interest.

[Tanner]

Birdhunter,
You obviously do not fish out of a driftboat if you are holding your rod while backtrolling baitdivers. It is kind of hard to row a boat and hold your rod at the same time. I have fished diver and bait in the past when Natives were in the river and I did not know any better, and I deep hooked the majority of them. Now, I usually stop fishing diver and bait at the end of January.

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Work is for people who have an expensive fishing habit to support.

[Tanner]

Birdhunter,
Obviously you were offended by my post. You should understand that I was not implying anything except for the fact that it sounded to me as if you did not fish out of a driftboat. You must remember that when someone reads a thread as this one, their thoughts are usually in the same context as the way they fish. Personally I do not use an outboard motor on my driftboat, I do not fish side planers and I do not have any friends that own driftboats. I do have plenty of friends that I take fishing in my driftboat and I stick almost exclusively to coast streams.
Secondly, in my experience, when someone is offended as easily as you just were, it is usually because they are either guilty of something or they are just an uptight person. I highly doubt if you are guilty of anything that would be in the context of this thread, SOOOO. LOOSEN UP, enjoy life, GO FISH'N.

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Work is for people who have an expensive fishing habit to support.

[Navigator]

I kinda avoid the hook thing altogether and just fish.