Calling ALL Sandy River Fisherpeople!!!!!!!!!

[Oakie Drifter]

Now you have a chance to speak out and to ask questions regarding the Sandy river proposals!

When: Feb 5th Monday night 7-9pm
Where: Clackamas County Bank in Sandy
in the Auditorium (in basement)
Who: ODF&W--Jim Muck and Chris Wheaton will
be there to answer questions.

This meeting is open to the public and regards the Sandy River Basin Plan. Here's a chance for you to participate and have your voice count. We need you, PLEASE ATTEND! I will be there as well as fishrus from this BB.
Hope to see you!

Now, if you cant be there, then at least send your support for keeping the hatchery runs going on the Sandy to ODF&W via EMAIL!
The email address is: Odfw.Info@state.or.us
Use subject, "Sandy River"

[blacktail]

I'll do my best to make it there.

Mike

[jkfrabel]

Thanks for the info Oakie I'll be there...Jeff

[This message has been edited by jkfrabel (edited 01-29-2001).]

[ampersat]

i won't be able to make it to the meeting but i did just send a good long email letting them know how i feel. come one everyone, write 'em and let 'em hear it. it worked last year to keep people from fishing from 'floating devices' above the deadline. (sorry guys, i'm a bank maggot still and i have to defend my territory).

[FISHRUS]

A bank maggot or boat fisherperson , we all need to work together to keep the hatchery runs going....I sent e-mail stating that I would love to volunteer my time to clip, sort, or distribute fish. Send E-mail or be at the meeting PLEASE!!!!!!

[Navigator]

Oakie - Thanks for the heads up. I may have a conflict Monday night but will e-mail. We have had some good threads on this but I still lean towards keeping a hatchery component to the Sandy - something than can support a quality catch and keep fishery.

[ssteelheadsteve]

So where do YOU think the Sandy Hatchery Fish should be planted ?

[BUGLEMAN]

The Hatchery fish on the Sandy should all be from wildbrood stock fish planted in the upper and lower basin to augment fish returns and hatchery escampment won't be as large of an issue. I strongly believe that all hatchery fish should be from in river genetics.

Kevin

[Ramstrong]

What is the address of the Bank? Next week I'll be working days & I think I actually might be able to attend.


------------------
-Ryan
www.xprt.net/~ryandsar
ramstrong@hotmail.com

[Oakie Drifter]

Here is the address:
Clackamas County Bank
38975 Proctor Boulevard, Sandy, OR 97055
(503) 668-4535

If you want a map, then go to this web site:
http://yp4.superpages.com/supermaps/...=&LC=&PM=&PS=& PI=&PB=&NA=&LS=&LID=0020813317&display=1&AD=&level =8&lat=0453972&lng=-1222627&POI1lat=0453972&POI1lng=-1222627&POI1name=Clackamas+County+Bank&GV=4&GL=&FN =&MC=&map.x=213&map.y=125

(hope you know how to copy and paste...lol)

[Navigator]

Ssteelheadsteve -- Dunno. I really want to study this one. My take (bias) is that management of the river system will be the norm. Shutting down the fishery is not management. A river so close to Portland needs to support a take fishery. That keeps the sportsfishers (and the guides) on the river. That keeps the rivers in the public eye and protected and clean. Right now, I feel the lower river can support a sizeable hatchery run without overly competing with the native (err, naturally spawning). But my plan is to study up on this more.

[Ramstrong]

Just bringing this back up to the top. I actually am working days these next two weeks and will be able to attend. Hope to see many of you there also. Just look for the 6' 5" goofy guy, that'll be me.

[Ranger]

Just thought a few people may be interested in a response from an individual targeted in a fler being distributed on the Sandy.

Dear Angler,
This flyer is being circulated in the Portland, Oregon metropolitan area by a group of anglers who don't seem to believe that survival of wild steelhead and salmon stocks is as important as their personal pleasure, and who also apparently believe that fly fishers as group are trying to stop "real sportsmen" from enjoying their recreation. It is the third such publication to appear in the last two years. When the previous two flyers appeared we chose to ignore them. This is a democracy and every person has a right to their opinion. Now ODFW has chosen to convene a special meeting at the request of the author of this flyer. I believe that the author is misinformed and is misinforming others, but has attracted enough attention to merit confrontation at this public meeting. His letter reads as follows:



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ATTENTION
SANDY RIVER FISHERMEN
MEETING NOTICE

There will be public meeting with Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife personnel at Clackamas County Bank Auditorium located a 38975 Proctor Blvd., Sandy, Oregon on Monday, February 5, 2001, 7:00 pm, to inform the public of their current proposal to end summer and early winter hatchery steelhead programs and drastically reduce all hatchery coho and spring chinook releases.
PLEASE ATTEND THIS MEETING!!! Spread the word and tell all your fishing friends. If enough of us go to this meeting we can have some opposition to the fly-fishing groups that are trying to take over the entire Sandy River and all river systems in the state. You can help keep the Sandy River open to all fishermen by telling ODFW in person that you want the hatchery programs to continue.

These fly-fishing groups (Oregon Trout, Trout Unlimited, Federation of Fly Fishers, Native Fish Society, and Mark Bachmann and his cronies from the Welches Fly Fishing Shop and the Sandy River Watershed group.) have been bombarding the courts with lawsuits using the wild fish policies of the Federal Government to force the Government to list species of fish under the Endangered Species Act and force the state to close hatcheries, regulate streams with gear restrictions, and eventually lead to "fly-fishing only" regulations for their own selfish purposes. These groups have also infiltrated the ranks of Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife, Commission, National Marine Fisheries Service, Forest Service and local watershed groups and influenced decisions relating to hatchery production, gear restrictions and harvest opportunities. Their goal now is to remove Marmot Dam, close the Sandy Hatchery and create a "fly-fishing only" wild fish sanctuary on the Sandy River. They were already successful in the upper Sandy System. This is just the first step on their ultimate goal of closing all hatcheries in the state and making the entire state "fly-fishing only" Stand up for your rights as a taxpayer and fishing license purchaser. This is pure discrimination. We should demand our river back, including the upper Sandy.

This is a chance for you fishermen to stop these purist fly-fishermen from taking over our river. These jerks will do anything to get you off the river. Lets make it a little more difficult for them.



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The following attempts to answer the allegations brought forth against Mark Bachmann in the attached flyer:
1. to inform the public of their current proposal to end summer and early winter hatchery steelhead programs and drastically reduce all hatchery coho and spring chinook releases.
This is an ODFW staff proposal to bring the Sandy River in line with National Marine Fisheries interpretation of the Endangered Specie Act and Oregon's Wild Fish Policy. In the 1970's Mark Bachmann worked very hard to bring about a water flow agreement with PGE at Marmot Dam to allow Spring Chinook and Summer Steelhead access to the upper Sandy River basin. This same person along with the Mt. Hood Chapter of Northwest Steelheaders (212 members) petitioned for the removal of Marmot Dam when it came up for re-license in 1970.

2. These fly-fishing groups (Oregon Trout, Trout Unlimited, Federation of Fly Fishers, Native Fish Society, and Mark Bachmann and his cronies from the Welches Fly Fishing Shop and the Sandy River Watershed group.) have been bombarding the courts with lawsuits using the wild fish policies of the Federal Government to force the Government to list species of fish under the Endangered Species Act
Wild runs of steelhead and Coho plummeted in the 1990's. Some of the above mentioned groups petitioned for listing under the Endangered Species Act to focus Government attention on these problems. The writer of the flyer seems to think that this is a bad thing. Currently the State is planting more hatchery steelhead in the basin than at any other time in history (235,000 winter steelhead & 75,000 summer steelhead). In fact returns of hatchery steelhead have decreased significantly through the 1990's in the Sandy River basin. The last three years returns have been very small. In the 1999-2000 winter season anglers polled along the river and using all fishing methods reported an average catch of about 8 to 1 wild over hatchery steelhead. The entire run of wild winter steelhead to Marmot Dam for the season was about 740 steelhead (largest recorded return was in 1962 at 3,880). Hatchery summer steelhead returns were far below the 10 year average. No numbers appear to be available. Numbers of wild summer steelhead returning above Marmot Dam was up this year with 115 adult fish reported. Spring Chinook returns appeared to be down. Since not all returning Spring Chinook are fin-marked the ratio of hatchery to wild fish is not quantifiable. The 2000 hatchery and wild Coho returns were both up significantly over recent years.

3. and force the state to close hatcheries, regulate streams with gear restrictions, and eventually lead to "fly-fishing only" regulations for their own selfish purposes.
There has never been a proposal from Mark Bachmann or any of his associates to close any hatchery or regulate any part of this basin as "Fly Fishing Only". In 1984 we did author a regulation change proposal termed "Deschutes Style Regulations" with the release of all wild fish and restrictions to single barbless hooks a artificial flies and lures only. These regulations were proposed to alleviate the harvest and mortality on the wild fish species that eventually became listed under the Endangered Species Act. It is not known if these regulations would have prevented listing. Do to pressure by sport fishermen, these regulations were not adopted.

4. These groups have also infiltrated the ranks of Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife, Commission, National Marine Fisheries Service, Forest Service and local watershed groups and influenced decisions relating to hatchery production, gear restrictions and harvest opportunities.
To his knowledge Mark Bachmann has had no influence on the fishery planning process since his removal from the Sandy River Basin Fishery Public Advisory Committee in 1994 because of his unbending avocation for continued planting of hatchery Summer Steelhead and Spring Chinook in the upper basin above Marmot Dam. Also sited was his confrontational nature when confronting ODFW for making management changes before providing research that the changes were the right ones.

5.Their goal now is to remove Marmot Dam, close the Sandy Hatchery and create a "fly-fishing only" wild fish sanctuary on the Sandy River.
Marmot Dam adversely effects the water flow in 11 1/2 miles of the Sandy River. It is and has been a fish passage problem since it was build in 1911. The rest of the statement is a blatant lie.

6. They were already successful in the upper Sandy System.
This is a preposterous distortion of the facts. Local residents in the upper basin had one of the States most prolific hatch box programs operating for 12 years which produced millions of steelhead, Coho and Spring Chinook fry from 12 STEP Program hatch boxes. These same residents spent thousands of hours doing stream surveys, restoration work and advocating for more hatchery winter and summer steelhead, Coho and Chinook stocking in the upper basin. However there is little doubt that the increased angling pressure that these projects caused also influenced the decline of wild fish in the basin.

7. This is a chance for you fishermen to stop these purist fly-fishermen from taking over our river. These jerks will do anything to get you off the river.
This is my reply to the gutless author who never signs his name to his hate mail. "Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. You can hold fly anglers responsible for all of the angling problems that occur on the Sandy River. With you it is always someone else's fault. Have you ever done anything for the fishery except spread hate and discontent?"



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This is my current position on some of the issues regarding fishery management in the Sandy River Basin:
1. I am in favor of the survival and proliferation of all wild (naturally reproducing) stocks of fish indigenous to to the Sandy basin.

2. I do not favor the elimination of any Sandy River hatchery programs unless they are proven to be detrimental to the recovery of wild fish populations. However, The American Fisheries Society and most biologists agree that hatchery fish do negatively effect wild populations. Before Marmot Dam is removed and before any current hatchery programs are are changed, I favor non-lethal genetic testing of naturally produced juvenile and adult fish to settle the issues as to what wild stocks are present and to what extent wild stocks have been crossbred by our hatchery programs.

3. I do favor the removal of Marmot Dam. I do not favor split basin management. It seems that whether most people believe that the retention of Marmot Dam is a good thing depends on whether you live upstream or downstream from it.

4. I have no intention of influencing for more "fly fishing only water".

5. I do favor gear restrictions that promote the survival of caught and released wild fish.

6. By definition the Sandy River is placed in the Lower Columbia River ESU (Evolutionary Significant Unit). This means that until wild fish populations are increased in all of the tributaries to the lower Columbia River, Sandy River fish are likely to remain listed. The Endangered Species Act is "the law of the land" and the only way to make our hatchery programs more viable is to make our wild fish runs stronger.

7. I think that all fishermen should work together to make fishing better in the whole basin and to remember that our State and Federal fishery managers have a nearly impossible task. Managing fisheries is not a science where absolute predictions are possible. The task becomes more complicated when anglers eliminate some of the management tools for their own bias. We as sportsmen can get everything we want and still fail if mother nature doesn't cooperate.

8. The elimination of some hatchery programs might be necessary on a temporary or permanent basis. Hatchery runs can always be restarted later. Extinction of wild runs of fish is probably permanent.

9. The Sandy River is the best remaining anadromous fish habitat left in the lower Columbia River System. If we can't save wild steelhead here, it is not likely that we will save them elsewhere in the Columbia basin. As sportsmen, do we really want that result as our legacy?

Fish long & prosper,
Mark Bachmann

[Ramstrong]

Just got back from the meeting. A huge turnout. From the get go I'm going to have to give the big thumbs up to Jim Muck, the sandy basin biologist and the other ODFW reps. they weathered the storm admirably. I know I couldn't have maintained Jim's level of composure. To highlight the recommendations of the state. The following are what is proposed when/if marmot dam is gone.

Winter Steelhead:
current release 230,000 smolts of big creek stock. Staff recommendation is to convert to all Sandy River stock and release 160,000 smolts.

Summer Steelhead:
Current release 75,000 smolts. Staff recommendation is to eliminate program.

Spring Chinook:
Current release 460,000 smolts of Clackamas stock. Staff recommendation is to convert to Sandy Stock and produce 300,000 smolts.

Coho Salmon:
Current release of 700,000 smolts of Sandy stock. Staff recommendation is to release 200,000 smolts.

Of all of these proposals there is only one I don't agree with, and that is the cutbacks in Coho plants. I feel that a reduction of almost 2/3's is too extreme. Other than that, I think the winter steelhead plan is great. Even though the # of smolts planted would decrease. We should get a higher return % from the broodstock fish, and I would imagine more hatchery fish in stream than are currently available. As far as summer runs go, with them now restricted to the lower river, it is more productive to fish the nearby clack. And ODFW's hands are tied as far as springer production is concerned.
However, you don't need to agree with me. Whatever you feel should be done, let the Fish and Wildlife commision know. I have a letter template that was handed out in the meeting as well as a list of options being considered. I will migrate them to word format tomorrow, and post them on my website with a link provided here, so you may fill them out and let your voice be heard. They do have to be received by Feb 16th though, so don't dilly dally. Let me know if you have any questions or concerns.

------------------
-Ryan
www.xprt.net/~ryandsar
ramstrong@hotmail.com

[Artwo]

Ramstrong,
Could you please explain to me way the ODFW's hands are tied when it comes to spring chinook production on this river. In my opinion the Sandy river is probably the best spring chinook fishery in the northern part of the state for a river of its size. I for one would like to see this river continue this reputation.

Thanks,
JK

[Hoosier Daddy]

Their hands are tied because the river is within the "endangered species zone" established and enforced by NMFS. The fed's have said this is the way its gonna be.

[Ramstrong]

Artwo,
The NMFS has mandated that future springer plants need to be in basin stock. So the recommended production is their maximum rearing capacity.

[Artwo]

Chnookie/Ramstrong,
Thanks for your response. But, and I know this will be a little abrupt, but why can't the state tell the NMFS to go suck eggs and they will develope their own recovery plan for those rivers that are shown to be threatened. I would think that each individual state would know more about their own individual needs more than some federal agency. Just courious.

JK

[Hoosier Daddy]

Ramstrong beat me to it. Yep, the feds can do what they want, and make the states do it too. I suppose someone could test them and get sued, but it seems to work better to try to get along with them. A lot of what the Oregon Plan the Gov. pushed a while back did was try to say "let us manage our own stuff and show you we can head off listings". Paraphrased heavily. But it was a pre-emptive strike in anticipation of listings, and trying to keep decisions local. We would probably be a lot worse off than we are if that hadn't gone through.

[Artwo]

Hey thanks guys,
I suppose your right about it being best to go along. I just hate to see a beautiful fishery so close to home go away. If they stop fishing on the river entirely in the future can you amagine what will happen to the Clackamas, it will be a ******* nightmare. Guess I better start getting to know how to float/fish the Clackamas, we'll have to see what will come out of the dam removal on the Sandy.

JK

[BUGLEMAN]

Has anyone seen the website with the history of fish runs in the Sandy Basin. It is excellent!!!! I bumped into it once and book marked it at my old job. It won't come up on my searches.

[ryan fish]

It's my belief Jim Muck skirted and dodged every question posed to him I'll say He's quite a PR man.I know no more today than yesterday.

------------------
Ron Wray

[garyk]

Artwo -- You posed the question of, essentially, why couldn't the state make decisions and ignore the Feds (NMPS)?

The state(s) have deliberately made, or chosen not to make, decisions which in aggregate have driven salmonid stocks to the brink. Thus triggering the Feds to step in via the Endangered Species Act. (Which I'm very thankful for).

You pose a reasonable question and the really short answer is -- the states' had their chance and failed.

[C&R]

Ryan,

I didn't have a chance to go to the meeting but would appreciate you being more specific. Most of the people that I spoke with that did attend said that it was well run and pretty specific in regard to responces. The facts remain that this is a federal issue. I personnally have no issue returning the basis to genetically approriate genetic stock(s) if possible. I question why any group or individual would be opposed to this. My assumption is that if escapement continues to decline this will become the trend. We must all carefully release wild fish and educate angler who wade through redds etc. This isn't for us it's for our kids and grandkids

[Ramstrong]

OK fisherpeople, I have converted the managment options available and a letter template into word format. Download them and send them in to the Fish and Wildlife commision. Please do this whether you agree or disagree with the state proposals above. I think we need to impress upon the commision how important the Sandy is to all user groups.

As far as Jim dodging the issues, I don't follow Ron. Just because his answers were above most of the audience doesn't invalidate them. He was attempting to explain that there is science behind the proposals, the science used has never claimed to be perfect, just the best available. However all the audience could muster was "pump the river full of hatchery clones" and "Stop the Damn Gillnetters, that'll fix everything" and the all to commonly used these days "that's fuzzy math."

Jim speaking for his love of biology was from the heart. I had the privelage of working with Jim in 1992 on the South Fork of the Coquille river. Way back when I worked for ODFW. Ask TH about the hatchery product on the South Fork. The brood stock program in Oregon I believe originated there, and the runs have been awesome since the 80's. I've sat around a campfire with Jim and I can assure you his love for the outdoors is genuine. I could gather that as an 18 year old kid then, and it seems apparent now. I say you give the guy a chance.

------------------
-Ryan
www.xprt.net/~ryandsar
ramstrong@hotmail.com

[Ramstrong]

Artwo,
federal law always trumps state. and ESA is a federal law. ODFW and WDFW are the NMFS' whipping boys. Sucks huh. That's also why the states take it in the booty when it comes to allocation.

[Ranger]

Ramstrong,
Bottom line,"Well said". You have articulated my thoughts on this bettr than I could have.
I haven't know Jim for long but my feeling is that he rally wants to do what's best for the fish, and for us fishers in the long term. He has experiwence that shows the science works. I have been participated directly with the Clackamas district biologists regularly for the past 15 years and have never felt they really did anything but follow orders from others. Jim has a proven track record of bringing more fish back to the systems he has worked on. Yes, the staff recommendation includes cutbacks in supplementation numbers and elimination of summer steelhead planting but the recommendations are science based and/or based on physical and/or legal constraints the ODFW Staff have no ability to control.
At this point I'm in Jims corner all the way.
No one is talking much about the likelyhood of far better survival for native broodstock smolt releases and the fact that cutting supplementation numbers doesn't necissarily equate to a proportionate drop in numbers of returning fish. For instance, getting a return of one percent of the Big Creek stock winter steelhead plants, which hasn't been close to happening, would mean 2,300 returning hatchery winter steelhead. A return of 1.5 percent of the proposed 160,000 native broodstock smolt releases, a percentage that is considered very conservative, would return 2,400 adults.
Science has, for the most part, been left out of the management equation up this point. It's time we used it.

[blacktail]

I wasn't able to make it to the meeting. However, I'm very distressed to see the proposal of eliminating the Summer Steelhead run on the Sandy. They have already eliminated the Summer run on the Molalla and now possibly the Sandy? These are/were two of my very favorite fisheries!!

Mike

[Navigator]

I want to thank Oakie Drifter for starting this thread. I went to the February 5th informational meeting in Sandy and got a lot out of it. I was surprised how emotional I felt about this issue. I feel we are being asked to unnecessarily give up our catch fisheries.

I wrote my letter today. I weighed in supporting the staff recommendations for winter steelhead (switch to brood stock) and Spring Chinook (switch to brood stock). I feel both of these options will still support a decent catch and keep fishery. I did not support their recommendations for summer steelhead (I think we should keep the fishery as long as we have Marmot Dam) and Coho salmon. For coho, I think we can risk a 30% aggregate basin hatchery stray in the lower basin. I also think we should introduce supplement fry plants throughout the basin to increase naturally rearing of these fish.

Overall, I think the objective for the Sandy River basin should be a year round catch and keep sports fishery involving winter steelhead and Spring Chinook brood stock, summer steelhead hatchery plants (lower basin) and coho salmon (fall) (which has always been a brood stock).

In preparing my comments, I read Mark Bachmann's Steelhead River Journal on the Sandy. While you may not always agree with the author, he does a good job describing how this basin has been abused. Also, the basin has a history of supporting a wide array of diverse fisheries. I hope Mark is right in his assertion that habitat in the upper basin is still abundant and of good quality. Like it or not, the Sandy River Basin management plan hopefully signals that over the next century the history of the basin will be on of well managed fisheries for well defined objectives.

I also asked for a catch and release fishery for Fall chinook and that all hatchery Columbia river fall chinook be marked. I would also be willing to pay a $15 Sandy River stamp to support monitoring and the continuation of a sort facility at Marmot should it be removed.

PS - I fished the Sandy today and got skunked. Fitting I suppose.