Who Has Power??

[Dances]

I have to write a paper on this topic and I would like some oppions on the question.

Who has power the National Government Or the State Government.

Thanks Jr.

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Work is for people who dont know how to fish

[Barnyard]

Neither It's the tribes...

[Phish_on]

Well, now, I say, I say, son, that all depends on who you talk to! An interesting topic. I got yer 10th Amendment right here buddy:

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the
States respectively, or to the people."

Say, for example, the people of a state, let's call it Oregon, pass laws allowing the possession of a certain herb by certain persons with certain medical conditions.

But say, for example, this herb is prohibited by regulations imposed by the Federal Government, which state that the herb is a dangerous drug with no known medical benefits.

Now, just hypothetically, this might be interesting.

I would think ... the FEDERAL government has the WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION. In poker we refer to that as an "ace in the hole." Power-wise I'd say advantage Fed. Not to mention trade restrictions, money supply/interest rates, environmental rules ... and, ehhhh, FISH stuff too - YEAH FISH STUFF.

[Dances]

Phish on
Good Point but,
You must remember the the Elastic Clause,

The Elastic Clause.
To make all Laws which shall be becessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, on in any Department of Officer thereof.

Becasue they clause the does not grant any specific power the government can twist it to meet any of the circumstances.

Ex. no where in the constitution does it say that the government can own land, But they seem to own about half of Utah.


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Work is for people who dont know how to fish

[HOGTIDE]

No Question Here:
Article VI The Supremacy Clause- Its strength was reinforced by a Supreme Court decision deliniated by Chief Justice John Marshall in the court's decision regarding the case of McCulloch vs Maryland. In that decision, he also incorporated the 14th amendment to assure the supremacy of Federal Law over all State Law decisions.

Article I Section 8:17 The Elastic Clause..."congress shall make 'any' law it deems necessary and proper." Logically giving the Legislative Branch ultimate power in all situations or discrepencies between states and the Federal Government

[Pete]

Don'tcha all fergit tha Equal Pertection Clause that allows the Suhpreme Cohrt ta trump anything, anytime. Ah sez the Suhpremes have the power.

[Hoosier Daddy]

Simple. Democratic congress and/or prez = federal. Republican congress and/or prez = states.

[Phish_on]

chnookie, that's what the "R"s would have you believe, but what about when it comes right down to abortion, guns, "physician assisted suicide", or the aforementioned War on Some Drugs - - ? ? ? No state's rights on right-wing morality!

[Phish_on]

and fish stuff of course, I meant to say ... trout salmon bass, etc.

Tackle hooks knots nets waders. Line-stripping run across the river. Catch and release. Grilled with Italian dressing. Butter and white wine. Did I mention fish stuff, no politics here no sir.

[Hoosier Daddy]

Guess its a matter of opinion. I guess I'd rather have "them" dictate some things than try to tell me how to do everything, or do it for me. I dunno.

[THE REEL HEY_YALL]

Don't leave out Mr. T

I pity da foo.

[zipper]

What we have here is the "United States of America" (under federal jurisdiction) not "United Republics of America" which would imply decentralized government and probably quite chaotic in comparison to what we have now. If that's possible. Ultimately the power lies with the Fed.

[Dances]

Osprey
I am not sure who wears the waders in your family. But I can probably guess.

My pro. is a republican I think at least I hope so.
If not well I might have to give him a different out look.

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Work is for people who dont know how to fish

[Osprey]

Well fishead when you grow up and have a wife or girlfriend you'll figure out who's really in Power and it ain't GW or his side kick

[zipper]

Don't be concerned with what political party your prof identifies with - the better question is how he interprets "power" - after all - college isn't about writing what someone else wants to hear - that's a job for speech writers. At this particular historical junction... California has no "power"... seriously, your question is very vague and could go either way depending on how you define "power". Watch this energy crisis to get my meaning here. Do the NW states want to provide electricity to Calif? Who will decide? It won't be the states. zip

[Dances]

O
Dont worry I know who has all the power and it sure aint me. although I wish it was

Zip
My prof. seems to think that the government has all the power which they may indeed.

But my paper is an opinion and everyone whogave theirs shall be included.

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Work is for people who dont know how to fish

[Phish_on]

Jennie and RT have the power! Hail to chiefs.

Phish, only to grab the broom to sweep occassional trolls into the dustpan . ... And F31, waders has nothing to do with the power of Os, the power is with the *****! Unless you lack testosterone.

[Dances]

RT
I was using waders in stead of pants.
And dont worry I know how it is I ahve a girl friend and she always wins weather she is right or not.

O I agree with you totaly



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Work is for people who dont know how to fish

[Dances]

RT
Trust me. There is no lack of testorterone

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Work is for people who dont know how to fish

[fishhead5]

You better find out if your proff. is a rep. or dem. then go with chinooke's or phish on's answer.

[Osprey]

This is easy...our Wives and girlfriends have all the power,since they have half the money and the *****

[THE REEL HEY_YALL]

Wife or Girlfriend has the power?!

Shoot, I'd be like, "hey woman, go knit me a sweater!"

Beefcake. Beefcake. BEEFCAKE!

[Osprey]

Yall hehehe and thats why you live alone with 3 cats.....who's you're Daddy

Fishhead: hang in there,thats what I met....they always win

[THE REEL HEY_YALL]

At least those pussycats won't take me to the cleaners

I live alone because I am a smart smart man, wiser beyond my years. Plus chicks dig little kitties, and a studmuffin who likes animals

I still say they don't always win, just sometimes you gotta make it look like they won.

No caca Jr., hang in there, plus you are way too young to even want a serious relationship..lol Does she have any hot friends?

[This message has been edited by hey_yall (edited 01-26-2001).]

[Dances]

Yall
ITs my girlfriend but she still always wins no matter what the topic is



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Work is for people who dont know how to fish

[Hoosier Daddy]

Hey, missy! Why don't you quit dressin me up like a mailman, and making me dance for you while.........
oh nevermind.

[Mikie]

Clint Eastwood A.K.A. Dirty Harry, 44 Magnum most powerful hand gun in the world. I prefer the 44 AUTO MAG. Can't stop a car with trilene. HA-HA. SEE YA MIKIE. THAT'S POWER

[Dances]

Thanks for all the imput

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Work is for people who dont know how to fish

[Dances]

Hey here is my paper tell me what you think

Doug Richert Doug 1
May 100

Who Has Power?
Who has power in the United States of America, the States or the National government? One might be led to believe that the states have the power. The national government is only granted 17 powers and the 10th amendment states that "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people." But there is one catch that goes with the 17 powers of the national government and that is the elastic clause. The Elastic clause states “To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, on in any Department of Officer thereof.” With that clause the national government can do what ever they please as long as it is deemed necessary and proper.
If you look at the two clauses clearly the national government has the power. Furthermore the elastic clause does not define what is necessary and proper so that can be defined anyway the national government wants it to. This can make the power of the national government enormous. The national government can do just anything they want as long as it can be deemed necessary and proper. Ex. No where in the constitution does it say the national government can own land, but they own half of Utah because they deem it as necessary and proper.
The national government can control almost every move the states make. For example the speed limit. The national government says the states can set their own speed
`
Doug 2
limit but the national government says “If you want highway grants we would like you to set them at 60 mph” and if the states disagree then the national government cuts them off.
Plus Article VI the Supremacy Clause- Its strength was reinforced by a Supreme Court decision delineated by Chief Justice John Marshall in the court's decision regarding the case of McCulloch Vs Maryland. In that decision, he also incorporated the 14th amendment to assure the supremacy of Federal Law over All State Law decisions. Thus the national government all the power.

I think that the national government has all the power. With the examples I have given and the clauses used in this paper show that the states might have some power but ultimately the national government has the final say in anything and everything.



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Work is for people who dont know how to fish

Good job Jr 31. Here in Oregon we are experiencing a case in the national limelight that illustrates your thesis. It is Oregon's "Death With Dignity Act". This was voted in by the people of Oregon for the people of Oregon, within the constraints of the Constitution. ... Except for those overpowering clauses. And that's why the national Government has been able to make inroads to reverse this law here in our State. I haven't heard the latest, but I think it could come down to legislation by the Congress to overturn it? Or the Supreme Court; branch of the Fed. Government? They are trying. ... Here is a cynical, but likely true, look at where much the real power is in this country: Look to the money. Money is the biggest factor in who gets elected; and contributing constituents get their favored votes, by their politicians they got elected, for their special interest legislation and budget rulings. Because if they didn't the campaign financing would essentially dry up! Examples of what this has done and where the power is: Concerning the aforementioned "Death With Dignity Act" in Oregon, who do you think are the biggest campaign contributors to Senators and Representatives behind fighting this State Act (mostly to Republican Congressmen, BTW)? It is the Phamacutical medicine corporations, the corparate hospital chains, and most bothersome of all many of the nation's doctors belonging to the American Medical Association. Do you really think those 3 contributor's members really want to keep terminal people alive as long as possible against their will while they suffer so badly, due to their conscience? Many think it is rather because of the Billions of dollars that they get by keeping these suffering people alive against their will! I feel bad and angry inside because I can't disagree with that take. Money is both the power and the ugly! Another example: How do you think the despicable lying money machine that the tabacco industry has always been, has been able to stay in that health ruining and people killing business? Despite investigations that proved they were lying all along about their tabbaco's affect on health, via coverups of studies by their own paid researchers? And at the same time found that they have been spiking cigarettes with stronger addicting ingredients? And have found that they have targeted youth with intentional subliminal and image advertising thru investigating company memos? And after all this is found out why are the tabbaco companies still in business?!? It's because of BIG tabbaco money contributed to political campaigns! Again, mostly to Republicans, especially from tabbaco growing states (on undisputable records -- e-mail Senator Ron Wyden's office for all the recorded details; he is one Democratic Senator that has fiercely fought the tabbaco industry for years). Of course there are also many properly responsible and reasonably eithical Republicans too. And there are some Demos that take the money and deliver. ... Another example is the polution and bacteria that big biz has been able to dump on American consumers due to big campaign contributions. These 3 special interest scenarios, driven and powered by big money, are just some of the examples among a multitude of them. And money IS the power. ... I'll let you make the guess who has been holding the attempts for campaign finance reform at bay. To make it an educated guess, look where the Congressional voting against meaningful healthy change in this country and against campaign finance reform comes from. ....

So Jr., before you hand in your paper you might want to find out which party your professor belongs to, and if favorable to your grade, you might add the truth of where much of the real power comes from in this country to your paper? If not of a favorable party or perceived position, then copy this post of mine and get your professor's opinion on it. I will take it with a grain of salt. - RT

[HOGTIDE]

RT...are you a Democrat?

No Hog', I'm not a democrat. I am a left leaning moderate; registered as an independant (verifiable in the state records). But one does not have to be a democrat to smell rats (as I mentioned above, rats come in both flavors). I bet I sounded a little too much like Ralph Nader for your tastes? You have posted that you disagree with many things I've posted, which is cool with me. You are an educated teacher that writes intelligently. Did you find anything in my above post to Jr 31 that you also disagree with? How would your opinion differ? Can you answer any of the questions about the tabaco industry; especially why they are still allowed to sell dangerous products? I am open minded to learn the errors in my thinking. ... Are you a republican Hog'? - RT

[HOGTIDE]

Oh ya, I'm a semi-proud member of the GOP. However, there is no way in the world that I would ever play apologetics for some of the things that have been pulled off by our congress in this past century.

You make some strong points in your "Big Money" arguement, and , for the most part, I think you are correct. I agree with you. How in the world can we go to the federal courts, sue tobacco companies based on the entire premise of their success, win, and then have our same Federal Government both support and subsidize these same operations. Voting records often tell the story, and you are right;there are rats!

My contention with your statements, arises more in regard to your consistant portrayl of the Republican party. I noted the proverbial 'bone' that was thrown, as you gave that, there are some "reasonably ethical Republicans, too." But, the effectiveness in your writing lies within your nuances, (e.g.,mostly Republican congressmen,BTW, etc.) I guess the problem I find, is your apparent assumption that the GOP most frequently operates due to self-benefiting motives. The assumption that by virtue of their political label, they operate on a lower ethical plane.

The so-called 'Death with Dignity' act is a good example.(Notice how I used 'so-called' to discredit it.) Your assumption was that Congress is overriding this act as a response to the influence of big money. You donot see overriding voters/politicians approaching it as an important moral/ethical issue. I believe most, if not all, folks dealing with this topic see it as crucial ,as to what they truly believe, when it comes to their view of the value of life. I don't think money would influence Repub.s or Demos here. I also doubt that there are enough people labeled 'terminal' as to benefit the sales of drugs by these multi-billion $ corporations.

It would be beyond naive to believe that we have 50 Democrat Senators in office solely for the purpose of purveying their lofty ideals and saving mother earth, while 50 Republicans are there trying to line their financial and political pockets.

Men are men. There are good men and there are bad men. And we are all suseptible to what the world has to offer in terms of money, power, sex and influence. In my experience, I have not seen group of men that has any distinguishable immunity from unethical influence. To say this is so, is incorrect.

[Dances]

Hey thanks for all the replies
I got a on it and the prof. said if I would of leaned a little more towards the rep. side that I would of got a 100%
Thanks Again

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Work is for people who dont know how to fish

[zipper]

Can you imagine working at the following Company? It has a
little over 500 employees with the following statistics: 29
have been accused of spousal abuse, 7 have been arrested for
fraud, 19 have been accused of writing bad checks, 117 have
bankrupted at least two businesses, 3 have been arrested for
assault, 71 cannot get a credit card due to bad credit, 14
have been arrested on drug-related charges, 8 have been
arrested for shoplifting, 21 are current defendants in
lawsuits. In 1998 alone, 84 were stopped for drunk driving.

Can you guess which organization this is? Give up? It's the
535 members of the United States Congress. The same group
that perpetually cranks out hundreds of new laws designed
to keep the rest of us in line.

[THE REEL HEY_YALL]

Sounds like my kind of people, where do I sign up to be employed by this business called Congress? At least they have faults, which shows they are semi-normal, except for the bajillions of dollars in their bank accounts. That spousal abuse thing though, I couldn't get along with that.

[GBSkunk]

Hog, very well put.

Zipper, where did you find that information? Is it something I can look up online?
Thanks

Hey Zipper, GBS just wants to see how many offenses were against Democrats . Remember GB, I'm a verifiable registered independant that just tells it like credible evidence sees it. - RT

[fishhead5]

Hey RT look at the last pres. I think he put it all into perspective. See you next tuesday.

Fishhead5

[SteelieSteve]

Fishhead
Perspective? as I recall this is the pres that loaned out the lincoln bedroom to those that filled his campaign coffers, also the pres who is soaking the people for a 750,000 new york city office. when it comes to politics they are all in it to line their pockets, swiss bank accounts and who pays? WE DO. NASTY THING FOR A FISHIN BB... politics
SS

[zipper]

The list was E-mailed to me by a friend that's into statistic compilation. It's all public info... actually I think I remember seeing this same thing in an editorial about a year ago... made me smile and thought I would pass some on to others... I too am a registered independent and vote my conscience and not the party. I've helped elect people on both sides and sometimes voted for people I knew would loose because I felt they were the best candidate... party is not a consideration for me. (there's crooks on all sides of the fence) zip

Well said Zipper. Right on! .... As for political posts, I wish they would go away or at least lighten up. I have a hard time with that, because of the crap heaped on us from those in power. I am thinking about taking a 12 step withdrawal program from posting to political threads . - RT

[GBSkunk]

RT, in my experience Independents are just Democrats who don't like to call themselves Democrats. The Independents in the congress almost always vote left.

Interesting GB. What experience have you had to gather that kind of evidence? Or even an opinion like that? I am unaware of that. Do you focus on the voting patterns of the Demo and GOP Congressmen too? How have they voted on campaign finance reform; for one? Just curious - no flame .

Edit: BTW, no name calling on the BB! Especially these dirty names . If you don't call me a democrat, I won't call you a republican GB. Eeeeooooowww; excuse my language there jk



[This message has been edited by RT (edited 02-05-2001).]

I just found out that with my 12 step program to withdraw from posting to political threads I first have to admit I have a problem . ...

Step 1 - OK, I do have a problem. I yell at my fingers "DON'T touch those keys". I can't stop them at this juncture. And those darn things type in such a manner as to make me look like an over-opinionated condescending political critic, even though I don't like to come off that way. I know that automatically puts me in the hot tub with half the room and into really hot water with the other half. I do have a problem. Next step. ...

Step 2 - I have to go back and re-view all my political thread posts to see if they were unjustly cynical. I've put up a lot of them so it will be awhile before I even look at what step 3 is. If they were overly assumptively cynical, then I have to admit that and correct it. But what if they were justifiable. Then what? Oh man, this is going to be a tough problem, but I'm going to kick it! I'm tired of these politico threads and want to have fishing and fun posts. - RT

[SteelieSteve]

RT Didn't mean to give you a complex about your posts. It's just that getting into political issues takes us away from the fun and interesting posts like where you fished over the weekend.I could use some advice on jig fishing; never had a bite on one. How deep to fish them? I'm a ifish addict and gotta keep up on the news and like to hear of people catching them even if I don't. Hit the clack for a couple hours yesterday and quized the flotilla as they went by me. Did not hear of a bite out of 4 boats. Keep up the posts bud... your good at it.
Tight lines
SS

[GBSkunk]

I don't want to start a ruckus or anything. I've ususally kept my mouth shut on the other political discussions that have been on this board. They are spirited but, like SS, I'd rather talk about fishing. However, whenever I watch c-span and they list the 200+ Dem and the 200+ Rep and the 2 or 3 Ind, the Independents always vote in the Democrat column. Thats all.

[HOGTIDE]

Personally, it is a strict policy of mine to never get political

Come on RT, I can Help You! Hold Hands and.....

We are the World, We are The Children ..
yes, yes...it's working!

That's it. Step 3. I need help from friends to direct me away from political posts! Thanks big time guys. Ah, the thought of it. No political posts on Ifish anymore. And if there are some, you will remind me not to type anything there. Right? ... Good one Hog', and the perfect song too ...

"We are the World,
we are the children,
I can't remember the words,
but think it's 'start givin'.

I have said some nasty things,
some downright nasty stings,
and you gotta know that,
I am just so darn sorry.

But you also said to me,
that I belong to one party,
and you just gonna need to know,
that it's just about that dough.

So what should we do with these post,
there the ones that hurt the most,
I think we should just stop *******',
and stick to our northwest fishin.

We are the World,
we are the children,
so let's get together,
and build a better tomorrow.

OK Hog' . I thought that was a good idea, your signing up there. Now I can't get that dam thing out of my head! If I can get to sleep tonight it will still be there in that friggin "better tomorrow". AAAAAARRRRGGGGGG! When that song first came out it took the better part of a month of listening to the oldies to get the thing outta my pate! .... We are the World ... AAARRRGGG! -
------------
Know Songs or No Songs? - RT

[Mikie]

Hey you guy's want a good song? Just to get you off the political stuff . REO SPEEDWAGON when they really rocked? R.T. RIDING THE STORM OUT. Next time you blast to the river , with a storm coming onshore . Crank IT UP. . MIKIE

[Hoosier Daddy]

Hey GB, I'm a registered independent like RT, but I normally vote more right than left. And you mean to tell us you actually sit and WATCH CSPAN!!!! Ouch.

[zipper]

I had planned on leaving this alone, but now feel compelled to respond to CBSkunk. For myself, (I don't speak for anyone else), I am a registered Independent because I don't feel that either of our major political parties speak to the real needs of the people anymore. I feel they are both morally bankrupt and spew rhetoric while engaging in self-serving reality. Both parties have their own agenda's which on the surface seem different (and some newsworthy issues they are) but are in reality they are pretty similar. The means they use to achieve their ends are sometimes different but the final results are the same. At any rate, I for one can vote for any candidate, support any position without regard for "party" politics and won't feel guilty or feel that I betrayed something for taking a stand. Neither party is right all the time and taking an "us versus them" approach to politics is counter-productive and feeds into the grand plan of our government. As long as they keep the people divided their power is secure. off the soap-box... let's go fishing - where politics and religion merge into a blur..... zip