Doggy Treat Question

[duckdog310]

I came across a doggy treat some gun dog writer was touting as excellent for recovery during a hunt. IIRC, it was homemade and included Karo syrup. Anyone remember anything about it?
It was supposed to be like some kind of doggy Gatorade.

My Lab is prone to exercise-induced hypoglycemia, so I need something sugary for him. I've got a jug of Karo, but I'd like to bind it with something solid for a little bit easier trip in the field.

[Bill Monroe]

Good question...I'm also interested in something dogs (namely aloof pointers) simply cannot resist...I need it for training, though...

[duckdog310]

A bit of history behind the question:

Opening day found my Lab "Gunny" and I out on an island. This was Gunny's first season. . .he's about a year and a couple months old.

Gunny spent the better part of the day swimming, running and generally burning calories. Toward the end of the day, Gunny started getting very slow on responding to commands. He started balking at getting into the water and soon became unresponsive to verbal commands and light electronic stimulation. I stopped working him.

Gunny finally dropped and had a seizure. Upon coming out of it, he was limp and unresponsive. We thought we were going to lose him. I packed him out of the hunt area (thank GOD he's only 55 pounds and not a SuperLab) and rushed him to the vet. Vet said it was likely one of two things: epilepsy or an exercised-induced hypoglycemic seizure. Given the stimulus prior to the incident, we are relatively certain it was the latter.

I don't like feeding a large meal prior to a hunt, as I've had other issues (bloody stool, lethargy, etc) with this. So, I've tasked myself to giving Gunny a mid-hunt sugary snack to make certain his blood sugar is where it needs to be.

Any info would be greatly appreciated. At this point, unless I can find a good recipe incorporating Karo, I'll probably just put straight Karo into a container and pack it out with me.

[STGRule]

Google "dog treat recipes". There are hundreds out there. If you can't find one with Karo in it, you should be able to tweak any recipe to add it. It may take a little experimenting, but it can't be any harder than any regular cookie recipe. Try this link

[Last Call]

Try marshmallows. One of my dogs was allergic to EVERYTHING, so he was constantly on some kind of medication or the other. He's pretty finicky (and possibly smarter than me), so it was tough figuring out how to get those pills in him. I didn't want to choke them all down him long-term.

The vet recommended marshmallows and he LOVED them. My lab also loved them (if one got "medicine", they both did). They are also almost 100% sugar.

Good luck,
LC

[James in Idaho]

Duckdog:

There are lines of labs effected with centronuclear myopathy, which is a very serious problem. You and your vet might want to check out www.labradorcnm.com, and I really hope is it just a suger issue. I've had a couple of friends loose labs to this.

[Snead]

I'm not sure about the treat made with Karo that you mentioned but I have purchased some "power bars" for my dog to eat when we're in the marsh during really cold hunts. The ones I bought are made by Purina,and are part of their ProPlan line of foods. Drake really seems to like them and I think they help keep his energy level up.

[Lured In]

Don't forget its not just the most serious results from a dog working a long day, but others like cramping, as well. My vet recommended packing a couple small bottles of 'pedialite' with me in the field. I don't recall how much sugar is in pedialite, but it may also be enough to offset the hypoglycemic issue.

I had my lab cramp up on a cold day while working on a bird that sailed out of one of the cuts in the Johnson unit out into Sturgeon Lake. 100+ yards out, dance around for awhile on a diving bird and back to the blind. 50 yards from the blind I notice she was kicking oddly while swimming. She hit the beach, dropped the bird and began yelping something fierce. It about broke my heart. After messaging it out and walking it off for awhile, she was fine, but I learned my lesson about my 'finely tuned athlete'.

Labs can be tough and many don't know when to quit, simply because they love to hunt. We need to keep a good eye on them and make sure we don't push them without a helping hand from some good energy sources.

[The_Duck_Master]

Originally Posted by James in Idaho

Duckdog:

There are lines of labs effected with centronuclear myopathy, which is a very serious problem. You and your vet might want to check out www.labradorcnm.com

[duckdog310]

Thanks for the info. . .I'll definitely check it out.

In the meantime, I used my advanced culinary skills to whip up a treat for Gunny. I used peanut butter, Karo syrup and crushed dog biscuits to form a pretty solid paste. Roll it in wax paper, refridgerate, cut into sections and package. . .easy.

[Hunt'nFish]

Hum, interesting. Sorry to hear about your pup. I too hope it's just a blood sugar issue. Much easier to manage. Please keep us informed w/ results.

What caught my attention was your comment about not feeding a normal meal prior to hunt. How many others do this?? My 13 month old Pup is just starting hunting and these are all good questions.

Last year I was amazed to see the Duck_Master eat an apple and then hand the core to his YLF "Peanut" during our hunt. I like apples for blood sugar when I hunt, so this made sense to me. I hear some labs will eat them and some won't, but as with any youngster (dog or child) if they are raised to eat something, they generally like them in the end.
So I made a point of raising my pup Chance on apple treats as well. Chance now loves them and I always leave plenty of apple on the core for him. personally I wonder about the dental issues of Karo syrup, natural sugars seem more friendly to the teeth. I'm not sure if I'm just going overboard here but what is the affects of sugar on dog's teeth? ....no big deal?

Marshmellows huh? I can think of a couple treats that I like...I'm sure the pup would too!
For myself, I've always been partial to Sunbelt brand snack bars from WINCO, $1.79 per 10bars. Pretty cheap power bars if you ask me. I'm sure the dog would like them too and no mess to deal with.
Hope the pup does ok,
Hunt'nFish

[duckdog310]

Regarding an AM feed prior to a hunt. . .

You know, now that I think about it, all the problems I had (and read about others having) regarding an AM feed prior to a hunt revolved around UPLAND hunting. In other words, hunting where the dog was expected to run non-stop for an extended period of time. Aerobic exercise, I suppose.

I wonder if I've got this all wrong. Duck hunting (and subsequently, water retrieves) seem to be (assuming it isn't a very long retrieve or extended hidden bird) more anaerobic. More like a short sprint versus a marathon.

I wonder if this has any impact on the effect of a full tummy on pup. Any thoughts?

I guess a better question would be: Who feeds prior to the AM hunt? Who doesn't? Why? What have your observations been either way, if you've tried both?

Thanks.

[billc_sbio]

I used to hang with a few hound hunter friends...

Their technique w/their hounds is "evening feed" (big meal) and morning "empty out", prior to their big run.

However, I have found with my Labs going out Duckin that feeding them a regular "morning" meal (I feed mine 2X day, morning & evening half as much) about 2 hr.s before they go hunting there's no problem.

When I take them Upland Bird Hunting I'll feed them 1/2 a normal meal about 1-2 hr.s before hunting them. Then, when done, I'll feed them the balance.

Feeding before strenuous exercise you have to worry about their stomach turning over and twisting shut. So a couple of hours gets it moving out of their stomach and into their small intestine.

I'll usually take a few large "Bones", Dog Bisquits out in the field and give them one every so often to keep their blood sugar level up.

When Duck hunting in cold weather I'll take a packet or two of "burger", that moistened stuff. I'm pretty sure it has a pretty good number of carbs in it, and fed in small amounts shouldn't cause any problems.

This has worked well for me through 4 Labs...I can't say how it'll work for others.

[duckdog310]

Thanks Bill. That sounds like a pretty solid routine.

[cityfisher]

Thanks as well Bill...that makes a whole lot of sense. I have a new puppy who will be a hunting partner and I want to make sure he is more comfortable in the field than I am.

[StickFish]

Let me ask you duck guys a question - do any of you eat a big meal and then go to the gym to workout?

I used to hunt ducks and I'm sure someday one you might corrupt me into getting one of my three shotguns out, but this comes from my athletic side so bear with me.

I think the 2 hour thing above is a good idea, but you may have to taylor that to the dogs ability to digest his meal. Digestion takes a huge amount of blood (well at least for fat athletes like me ), that is blood that will not be used to fuel muscles, so muscles will burn stored sugar and it doesn't take much lose of sugar in the brain to trigger hypoglycemia.

For my body, I don't like to eat a big meal three or four hours hours before a racquetball match (Tournaments are heck on me). During long weekends at the club I live on Cliff Bars and Water (hydration is also required for high levels of physical activity). When I start feeling dumb on the court - TIME OUT! Hit the gator aid, or orange juice.

I'm not a dog, but I think your duck dogs are athletes - carb load before a hunt. High protien lite snacks, and maybe something sugery, plenty of water the day of the hunt, maximize the protien the few days afterwards to rebuild the muscle tissue - and maybe a buffered aspirin.

Good luck guys with the birds

[James in Idaho]

I usually feed my dog the normal amount (1 1/2 cups) in the morning before hunting. There is at least an hour to an hour and a half before we ever start "hunting" (driving, picking up partners, launching boats, you know the drill), so I don't think shorting him food is a good idea. I hunt a lot of upland, so he's working pretty hard throughout the day quartering and busting brush. I usually feed him about a half ration when I take a lunch break, and he gets treats throughout the day while we're hunting. I still have trouble keeping weight on him during hunting season, and I like my dogs lean. When we get home, he gets his dinner and I add a crushed asprin in it, he's almost ten and he gets sore too. If I'm hunting several days in a row, the asprin is added to every morning and evening meal. I strongly believe the two smaller feedings is better than one big one, and don't even ask what I think about free feeding. Oh yeah, if we're not hunting around water, I carry at least two quarts of water for us, three or four if we're hunting those red legged devil birds.

[Lured In]

FYI on AM feeding. There is actually a real medical condition that can result from feeding your dog and then running it. Obviously a dog's digestive tract is horizontal not vertical, like ours. As a dog runs with food in their stomach, it can actually 'flip' the stomach (essentially winding it up) which can result in surgery to fix.

If you feed early enogh (I would error on the 3+ hour side of things), it is likely not going to be an issue. If you are still unsure ask your vet.

Personally, I got my pup down to 1 feeding a day (in the evening) and she does just fine given a normal hunt day. From a natural history perspective, you could even make the case that dogs in general were designed to eat one large meal infrequently (like wolves or yotes).

[billc_sbio]

Originally Posted by Lured In

FYI on AM feeding. There is actually a real medical condition that can result from feeding your dog and then running it. Obviously a dog's digestive tract is horizontal not vertical, like ours. As a dog runs with food in their stomach, it can actually 'flip' the stomach (essentially winding it up) which can result in surgery to fix.

If you feed early enogh (I would error on the 3+ hour side of things), it is likely not going to be an issue. If you are still unsure ask your vet.

Personally, I got my pup down to 1 feeding a day (in the evening) and she does just fine given a normal hunt day. From a natural history perspective, you could even make the case that dogs in general were designed to eat one large meal infrequently (like wolves or yotes).

Lured,

Well that goes along with what my Hound friends used to do.

However, it just "seems" to me that NO morning nourishment seems like it's been a long time running on an empty stomach.

(And that's WHERE the Hypo-Glycemia comes in that was mentioned that got this entire thread going)

I used to hunt with a friend who had a GSP who suffered from this and IF he didn't feed her first, and continue feeding her small amounts during her time afield, she'd suddenly fold up, collapse, and it was scary to watch

In my case, we're talking about usually hunting on public land, which usually involves, travel time, waiting in line time, getting out to the field time and THEN finally hunting.

Except for rare occasions where the dog will have to swim down a cripple for an extended period of water time, most of this exercise, is just short bursts of speed and energy with a short swim then more sitting/waiting (shivering to keep warm) for the next little wind sprint.

This is NOT like running a Marathon.

The Upland Hunting mode is more like a marathon, however the dogs usually learn to pace themselves, so they're not really running "full out", but they do get replenished with small amounts of food and water during the day to keep some carbs in 'em.

Yep, know about the twisted stomach and mentioned that above...that's why a small meal early to start with.

As far as being able to "change" their diet radically (the equivalent of OJ, Power Bars, etc.), the closest I've been able to come to this is the Burger Packs I mentioned, that and when it gets really cold and there are more Ducks around (more work/retrieving) I'll usually switch them over onto the "Performance" mixture of food.

A few years ago they came out with some canine "power bars". I tried some and of course the dogs ate them...I think they were something that was good for the dogs to have to recharge with, as advertised.

However they were VERY Expen$ive and my local big Pet mart QUIT carrying them! (I'm not even sure whether they're still made or not?)

So far, all's working well.

When I detect that something's not working right, I'll look at making changes.

[The_Duck_Master]

HnF,

I don't remember giving Peanut an apple, but it is certainly possible she did find a core. She is a typical lab in that regard and will eat anything she can get ahold of. I normally feed my dogs nothing but quality dog food so if she did eat an apple, it was certainly not intentional.

billc, I believe Purina made the performance bar you're referring to and it was discontinued by them a couple of years ago.

All, I feed my adult dogs 1 evening meal. Most dogs don't need fed more often unless they have digestive problems in which case multiple smaller meals are warranted. Feeding them in the morning because we 'think' it will help them is conveying human needs to an animal, that can as mentioned above, be detrimental to their health.

[ogrejager]

Apples. My lab, Vader, and I have been hunting EE Wilson 2-3 times a week this year (it's been a hoot). There's a lot of apple trees there. I've started eating 2-3 a day and Vader has started having a couple himself. No ill effects.

On the bigger scheme of the thread, Vader went to a trainer when he was a pup and the trainer and I talked about food and feeding. He said it was "a really bad idea" to give a dog a meal in the morning and then run him during the day. His dogs (and Vader) get an evening meal now. So, yeah, what others have said.

--R

[billc_sbio]

Originally Posted by Lured In

From a natural history perspective, you could even make the case that dogs in general were designed to eat one large meal infrequently (like wolves or yotes).

So here's a question for y'all...

When you're out in the field early in the morning, and you see one or more Coyotes "out" running around, WHAT are they doing? Maybe Hunting???

And then WHAT does that Coyote do when it catches a mouse or gopher or bird (or 2 or 3)?

The ones I've seen will EAT IT right there on the spot! Nice morning snack!

And, if so inclined (and still hungry) that same Coyote might be out even midday...it takes more than a couple of field mice to satisfy that appetite.

Then again, in the early evening as other available food comes out, Mr. Wiley's out there again...workin on his 2 (or 3) squares a day...

Think about it!

[James in Idaho]

Torsion (twisted gut, GVD) is an issue to be aware of. Some lines are more prone to it, and some breeds (hounds specifically, huge problem in danes) are very prone to it. It is usually fatal unless you are very close to a vet, and even then the chances are pretty slim. One of the common suggestions in preventing torsion is to feed the food wet, which I have always done. It is also recommended that you feed smaller amounts several times a day to prevent it. In fact a quick search on torsion all of the web sites say that ONE FEEDING a day increases the chance of torsion. In Danes, it doubles the risk. My vet recommends two small feedings, as did my last vet, works for me. Most retrievers have a pretty low risk factor for torsion. I feed my mutt first thing in the morning when I get up, and always let him "air" before we start the hunt.