Leading your target

sunshinefisherman · 10-16-2006, 09:31 AM

A friend of mine missed a buck this year and told me he was trying to lead the target. This sounded kind of hoaky to me so I did some math.

Check me on this:

The numbers I used are:

Miles/hour x 1.4667 = Feet/second
300 feet / 2500 feet/second = 0.12 seconds
30 Miles/hour x 1.4667 x 0.12 = 5.28 feet

Therefore:

A buck running at 30 miles per hour moves 44 feet per second
A bullet travelling at 2500 Feet per second covers 100 yards in 0.12 seconds.
The buck can cover 5.28 feet in 0.12 seconds.

I can understand doing this with a shotgun but it seems incredible to me that you would need to do this with a modern rifle.
Am I doing the math right?

WSU · 10-16-2006, 10:30 AM

Yes, you need to lead running animals with a modern rifle. Obviously it varies with distance. At close ranges you don't really need to lead much but obviously it grows with the distance.

baltz526 · 10-16-2006, 10:45 AM

if they are going uphill when running, you also have to aim at the elevation they will be in the 5' they travel forward

ajfishfinder · 10-16-2006, 12:00 PM

Assume your talking muley because any blacktail will be gone in a hurrry if he is running. In the case of a running muley, a nice loud wistle will usually be a better choice than a flat out running shot requiring leading. Quick wistle and he will stopp and have a look 9 out of 10 times.

FeatherBusterOSU · 10-16-2006, 02:06 PM

Yep the math sure checks out. That is assuming a mule deer is already running at 30 miles per hour constantly.

jmg · 10-16-2006, 07:40 PM

The buck I shot this year was moving when I let him have it. He was about 250 yds out and trotting. I put the vertical crosshair at the base of his neck and ended with a double lung hit.

Teton · 10-17-2006, 11:31 AM

Yes, the laws of physics clearly apply, as they always do. The bullet and the animal's kill zone must "meet" at the same place at the same time. Time = zero at the moment the trigger is pulled. So long as the animal travels in the same direction for the time required for the bullet to travel to its target, your quick calculations will work if you know the animal's velocity and the bullet's velocity. Like we have time for that? Right?

Happy Hunting!!

Northwest Pest · 10-17-2006, 01:07 PM

Shooting at moving targets is very much a learned skill. Knowing your weapon well and practicing at a range with moving targets or on non big game animals like coyotes will make a person much better. It's best to shoot them when there not but big bucks in open country that are not muleys in most cases don't stop running. Growing up in open rolling hills and flats of Montana made me very good at this sort of thing but I still think running shots should not be taken if at all possible.

Teton · 10-17-2006, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Northwest Pest

but I still think running shots should not be taken if at all possible.

For the average hunter, I fully agree. Unless you know you can drive a bullet into the heart/lung area, you should leave the safety on.

StickFish · 10-17-2006, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teton

For the average hunter, I fully agree. Unless you know you can drive a bullet into the heart/lung area, you should leave the safety on.

I wouldn't call myself an average shot, but I've decided for myself that I don't shoot at running game anymore - done it - connected everytime - just not comfortable with the possibilities anymore.

in 'em · 10-18-2006, 01:50 PM

ummmm....if the deer is 100 yds away and can move 5.28 ft by the time you pull the trigger and your bullet gets there, then of course you should lead it. Makes sense to me...what doesn't your math support?

If you aim right at the heart when you pull the trigger, you'll hit 5.28 ft behind where you were aiming.

I don't prefer anyone shoot a moving deer, I like to stop 'em first, but I have shot numerous times and moving targets on the range and at a deer several years ago, and you definately don't have to aim 5 ft in front of the kill zone....for various reasons.... One, because the target doesn't move 30 mph usually.

Rank Amateur · 10-18-2006, 02:05 PM

I think there are two schools of thought on shooting running game. The snap shot where you lead ahead of the animal with a stationary rifle and pull when you think the lead is right and the swing with and follow through. My problem is the follow through. I also know there is another factor in this equation because of the lead that is needed when shooting birds, is this the speed of the projectile getting to the target??? A rifle shoots a lot faster thus maybe the lack of much of a lead, that is if you follow through.

What do you guys use for a target a tire with a target in the center, swinging target??

Ni! · 10-18-2006, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rank Amateur

What do you guys use for a target a tire with a target in the center, swinging target??

Coyotes.

More seriously, I think Rank touched on some of the issues that makes shooting at running game much more than a dry math exercise. There's the reaction time between when you decide to pull the trigger and when the sear actually breaks, the lock time of the action, the acceleration of the bullet down the barrel, the deceleration of the bullet through the atmosphere, the speed of your swing, etc. No math solution can lead you to the perfect lead when you factor in all those variables, although it's not a bad starting point to begin your practice.

Ni!

Chrome Bumper · 10-18-2006, 02:36 PM

Your math is correct. I would assume a slower target speed though. Also if it is running away then the angular speed is less than if he is running pependicular to your rifle barrel.

Hey batter, batter, swing.

sunshinefisherman · 10-19-2006, 09:34 AM

Thanks for checking my math, just wanted to make sure it wasn't a Geritol moment.

I picked 30 MPH because that is the max panic run speed of a doe in front of a car (please don't ask how I know this) and because it made the math easy. In a real-life situation like a buck running through the brush / woods, I believe the speed would be more like 20 MPH.

I picked 2500 FPS for the same reason, it made the math easier and it is a middle of the road bullet speed. After all, the best you can do in the field is make a rough estimation based on distance, angle, etc.

I agree with the coyote practice thing. I do much the same thing with my bow by practicing on carp in the summer.

Those who only take standing shots are correct that standing shots are best but I see nothing wrong with running shots as long as you are reasonably confident in a kill shot. There is a big big difference between using a .223 on a deer and a 30-06 or a 45-70.

dog · 10-19-2006, 05:17 PM

If you are interested in seeing the "proof in the pudding" you should stop by some year and shoot the running buck at the Four Corners Rod and Gun Club during one of the 4 weekends prior to deer season. Open to the public and their major fund raiser. It only cost $6.00 to sight your gun in and shoot 3 different times at the "running buck". it is on a railroad track type system and goes along not to fast at approx 100 yards away. They pull it back and inform you where your shots hit. Believe me, it can be an eye opener for not only the "lead" issue but the accuracy of the "average"(that would be me) hunter shooting at a moving target under the best of circumstances at what appears to be a relatively easy shot. Lastly, it is good practice with immediate feedback as to where you have shot.

arlie · 10-20-2006, 04:20 AM

You think that is alot? Try a bow!

On second thought, don't! Let me see, 270 fps at 90 feet away at a deer 30 mph,,,,,

sunshinefisherman · 10-20-2006, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog

If you are interested in seeing the "proof in the pudding" you should stop by some year and shoot the running buck at the Four Corners Rod and Gun Club during one of the 4 weekends prior to deer season. Open to the public and their major fund raiser. It only cost $6.00 to sight your gun in and shoot 3 different times at the "running buck". it is on a railroad track type system and goes along not to fast at approx 100 yards away. They pull it back and inform you where your shots hit. Believe me, it can be an eye opener for not only the "lead" issue but the accuracy of the "average"(that would be me) hunter shooting at a moving target under the best of circumstances at what appears to be a relatively easy shot. Lastly, it is good practice with immediate feedback as to where you have shot.

I'd love to. Where the heck is Four Corners?

in 'em · 10-20-2006, 11:43 AM

4 corners is on State St. just east of Salem.

Chrome Bumper · 10-20-2006, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sunshinefisherman

I picked 30 MPH because that is the max panic run speed of a doe in front of a car (please don't ask how I know this) and because it made the math easy.

Oh gee I couldn't imagine how you know that. You aren't the guy with a cowcatcher with peepsights on his front bumper are you?