Muzzle loader help

[BW]

So a friend just about has me talked into muzzle loader hunting. But the laws in Washington appear to say the new style muzzle loaders are not legel. So what do you guy's use?

[bassin]

I have a TC Hawkens. 54 Cal. Deer, elk ,bear no problem
And you can almost pound nails at 100 yards.
Powder and ball, maxi balls will very. Each gun has a different load that you will need to dial in.

[Washington Hunter]

I have a .54 Lyman Deerstalker and a .50 Thompsen/Center Black Diamond XR. The T/C is an inline, the Lyman is a sidelock. Both are legal in Washington.

[billc_sbio]

If you haven't ever seen a Muzzleloader Rifle Match, you'd be amazed at the accuracy that good ones can shoot.

You can go totally traditional or get a traditional style gun (side hammer, cap lock) made out of more modern materials (synthetic Stock, Stainless Barrel and Lock).

While not nearly as powerful as some of the new "super" Muzzleloaders, you can think of the traditional style guns similarly to a "Single Shot .30-30" in range and effectiveness.

With practice and quick loaders you can get reloads down to under 45 seconds.

Traditional style muzzleloaders require you to get up on game animals pretty close, somewhere between modern rifles and Archery hunting.

[BW]

The game laws appear to say guns that use the 509 primer are illegal. They go on to say inline is ok as long it uses original style percussion caps that fit on a [celery sticks!].

Is this the case with the T/C Black Diamond XR? I could not find any inline that didn't use 509 caps.

[Washington Hunter]

The Black Diamond can use original style percussion caps or 209 primers.

[BW]

Thanks.

[HntnFsh]

Inlines are also ok. The cap has to be exposed to the elements though.So you have to make sure you dont by a muzzy that completely encloses the cap.

[billc_sbio]

We were discussing this just the other day (using an Inline w/percussion caps) and the consensus agreed (at least I know it's what I think) that you'd really like to go with Musket Caps if your rifle can use that setup.

They hold more compound and are larger/easier to handle.

[hunt2much]

musket caps all the way!!! I've been hunting in the rain all weekend and my smoke stick fired each time at the end of the day with out a problem or hesitation. my buddys took 2-3 No. 11's to go off! now if i can only find a way to shoot it accuratly at 100 yds!


And why cant we say [celery sticks!]??? it is a part of a gun???
Can I say shaft, when I'm refering to an arrow???
Is a female dog a [celery sticks!]???
What about Tillamook head???

if a moderator would just tell me what my cap goes on??? I know that my caps do not go on celery sticks!!!


Censors...gees...what happened to the first amendment?
I understand this is a private board..but come on...

Ah thats another post i guess.

i'm sure i'll get a nasty gram and a copy of the conditions of use for this board...but come on... its a part of a gun

Matt

[adobe wall]

One thing I've wondered about is the "exposed to the elements" requirement. If I tape over the port in the action with vinyl tape (which works quite well) have I violated the law?

[MattPark]

celery sticks = n i p p l e

[Fishinisbelievin]

adobe wall,

It is my understanding that it is illegal to cover the breach and firing cap area of a muzzleloader rifle while hunting in Washington. When the weather is bad, I put a rolled up balloon over the end of the barrel and then carry the rifle on my shoulder with the sling. Having the breach and firing cap area facing down tends to keep that are dry. I have never had a problem with my muzzleloader firing, even after hunting in some pretty bad snow storms.

[hunt2much]

i wouldnt think tape or saran wrap over your breech area would be illegal. if its illegal, then what about covering it with your hands while walking??? the gun is legal and i think thats what the laws are refering too..but don't quote me... i'm not a warden or a lawyer!!!

[Hook'm&Book'm]

Has anyone else found that after a shot the accuracy goes down. My muzzleloader will be dead on when it has a clean barrell, but shoot it once and I lose a lot of accuracy?

[O Tshawytcha]

Mine is the opposite!!

The first shot is not even on the paper. After that I get 3 inch groups at fifty yards. After the first shot is your gun "off" but still grouping? If so I would fire a squib charge or "practice shot" and adjust your sights so the subsuquent shots in the dirty barrel are zeroed. That way any follow up shots will be dead on (pun intended).



GRIFF

[Chesapeake]

In Washington it's not legal to tape over the chamber area to protect the cap.

The two rifles I would suggest depending on the style you want.

Old school: 54 cal. Lymans plains rifle (1 in 60 twist) either flint or cap. Shoot patched round ball.

Inline: 50 cal. Knight Bighorn 26" stainless w/thumbhole stock. Shoot 375 grain Buffalo Bullet Special sabot.

My favorite powder is 777 in FFG or FFFG. With a mucket cap you will get a bit more reliable ignition and a bit more velocity from your powder charge.

With the above Knight, 110grn 777, 375 grn SSP, RWS musket cap, my velocity is 1750 fps at 10 feet.

In Oregon the laws are a bit more restrictive. Almost any muzzleloader can be fitted with a new breech plug to allow caps instead of primers. Most of the inlines come with these parts.

I've owned several muzzleloaders a few of witch were Thompson Center. After shooting a Knight I sold my TC's and bought me a Knight Wolverine(now Big Horn, again). Yes they cost a bit more but they are an entirely different class of muzzleloader.

I would suggest staying away from 1 in 45, 1 in 36, and any thing in the 1 in 30 to 1 in 50 range. These twist rates are a compromise and attempt to make a rifle that will shoot conicals, sabots and round balls. The problem is they dont shoot anything good. If you are set on shooting conicals 1 in 36 may be best depending on length of bullet.

I would also suggest using loose powder. The pellets get wet and still look dry. They also use black powder as a primer and if you crush them seating the bullet the primes effectivenes may be lost. This leads to irradic velocities. Loose powder is also about half the price of pellets.

These are just my oppinions and should be taken as such.

[billc_sbio]

In Washington it's not legal to tape over the chamber area to protect the cap.

Hmm...that's an interesting law and I wonder what all IS or is NOT "legal" under its terms?

There's a "Traditional" accessory that's been made and used for this since the days of the first Flintlock rifles...

It's called a "Sow's Ear" and it's a leather cover that can be tied to the wrist of the stock or to the Trigger Guard on one end.

Then the other end can have its strings tied with a a bow knot, like your shoe laces.

This pretty much molds around the Hammer and Lock (it's sewn with an angle bend in it) and his held down pretty tightly against the Stock and Barrel. It's made out of treated, waterproofed, leather and when you need to fire, you just pull on the release string and quickly pull it out of the way (it will swing down and hang by its other string).

I wonder if this cover is "Legal"?!! These have only been around since the early 1700s if not earlier!

[Ni!]

I believe anything that's attached to the gun itself that encloses the breech is illegal, regardless of whether it's "traditional" or not. The concern here is less with "tradition" than it is with "primitive." At least that's what I've gathered from reading the regs and talking with ODFW on the subject.

Ni!

[Washington Hunter]

I've sure never seen a law that said a guy couldn't cover up the "chamber area." The law says the gun must be of the type in which it is "exposed to the elements." Doesn't say you can't cover it up to keep it dry. Seems that would be pretty tough to enforce anyway.

[Ni!]

Well, we're dealing with both Washington and Oregon in this thread, so that may lead to some of the confusion we're seeing. Here's a description of "open ignition" from page 11 of the 2006 Oregon Regulations:

"Open Ignition" is an ignition system where the percussion cap, frizzen, or flint is visible and exposed to the weather at all times and is not capable of being closed or covered by any piece of the weapon.

This means to me that you can cover it with your hand, or hold it under your coat, but if you attach anything to the gun that covers the ignition, you're making it a closed ignition, even if it's just a piece of tape or a leather flap. Once again, those are the Oregon regs. I couldn't tell you what the rule is for Washington.

Ni!

[Washington Hunter]

Here is the entire law regarding muzzleloaders:

WAC 232-12-051 Muzzleloading firearms.(1) It is unlawful to carry or possess any firearm during muzzleloading seasons which does not meet the following specification for a muzzleloader. A muzzleloading firearm is loaded from the muzzle and uses black powder or a black powder substitute as recommended by the manufacturer for use in muzzleloading firearms. A muzzleloading firearm has a single or double barrel of at least 20 inches, rifled or smooth-bored. Ignition is to be wheel lock, matchlock, flintlock, or percussion using original style percussion caps that fit on the [celery sticks!] and are exposed to the elements. Shot shell and 209 primers are not legal.

(2) Sights must be open, peep or of other open sight design. Fiber optic sights are legal. Telescopic sights or sights containing glass are prohibited. It is unlawful to have any electrical device or equipment attached to a muzzleloading firearm while hunting. Except hunters with disabilities who meet the definition of being visually impaired in WAC 232-12-828 may receive a special use permit that would allow the use of scopes or other visual aids. A disabled hunter permit holder in possession of a special use permit that allows the use of a scope or visual aid may hunt game birds or game animals during muzzleloader seasons.

(3) A muzzleloading firearm used for deer must fire a single, nonjacketed lead projectile of nominal 40 caliber or larger, except that buckshot size #1 or larger may be used in a smoothbore of 60 caliber or larger.

(4) A muzzleloading firearm used for all other big game must fire a single, nonjacketed lead projectile of nominal 50 caliber or larger, or fire a single, nonjacketed lead projectile of at least 170 grains.

(5) This section shall not apply to the carrying of a handgun designed to be charged with black powder only.

(6) This section shall not apply to persons lawfully hunting game birds with a shotgun.

(7) Only one barrel of a double barrel muzzleloader may be loaded with powder or bullet or capped at any one time while hunting in a muzzleloading season except in specified firearm restricted areas.

[billc_sbio]

Hmm...as I read BOTH those sets of regulations, I interpret them to say that no (integral) part of the firearm may be designed so as to enclose the nippl-e (which MUST be, by design, exposed to the elements).

However it doesn't say ANYTHING about any sort of accessory protective "cover" (hand, leather cover, tape?) placed over it!

As I read it (and I may be wrong) it really has more to do with the DESIGN of the firearm, specifically aimed at many of the modern designs wherein the priming mechanism is determined to be "internal" and thus very similar to a caseless round.

[Ni!]

That could be, although it seems pretty clear to me that the purpose of the regulation is to make you hunt with the ignition open. I could be wrong too, though.

Ni!

[Chesapeake]

The way it was described to me by a call to WDFW and talking to a few officers is that the spirit, intentions, ect... of the law is that the cap remain exposed to the elements.

This could be debated for ever and never finished. All I can say is do what you feel is right.

As far as purchasing a gun, I think it is clear it must be designed to have an open ignition. But according to some you can modify this as you please after the purchase.

[billc_sbio]

That could be, although it seems pretty clear to me that the purpose of the regulation is to make you hunt with the ignition open. I could be wrong too, though.

Ni!

O.k., so here's my thinking...see how you view this.

So I've gone on several M.L. hunts here in Oregon, both before they tightened up the regs and since.

I've always used "Traditional" style equipment as that's what I perceived the "spirit of the game" to be about with these M.L. hunts.

However, when I'm out there (and this is exactly what has happened), hunting with my handmade .58 cal. FLINTLOCK Replica, made to shoot only round balls, and it's raining and snowing, I've got my greased Sow's Ear tied down over my exposed lock just like any good Mountain Man in the 1830s would have! And they'd be crazy NOT to have it on there.

So if some Stater's going to come out there are write me up for having my exposed ignition covered, so be it! I'll take it before the judge and see where it goes from there...maybe a pay a fine, but maybe end up having the law written more precisely.

Personally, I think that under those circumstances, any knowledgeable game cop would have a real battle with their conscience trying to write me up on it...

Don't try to tell me about "Primitive"...I'm DOING IT Primitive!

(I'm mixing my own grease, casting my own balls and bullets and patching my balls with pillow ticking)

Dunno...nobody's ever stopped me for it!

[JCJ]

I think we are getting too controversial on this subject.Its really simple if you want to hunt with them just buy yourself a 30-30 and do it in regular season because thats really what your using ,not a muzzleloader in the sense it was supposed to be used in.If you want to hunt muzzleloader season then get a traditional muzzleloader and do it and stop messing around with the inlines and all the nonsense that goes with them.They were designed for one thing and one thing only and that is to get more hunters into the field with a supposed muzzleloader and increase the bottom line profits of the companies like Knight and the others.They do have traditional inlines but you only find them on a range and they weigh about 15 pounds.What would be wonderful to see would be the ODFW go to flintlock only on all muzzleloader seasons and that would end the arguement over which sights and which igniton and what kind of cap is legal.The seasons were designed for traditional muzzleloaders when they were created and not for 30-30 clones that loaded from the muzzle.IMHO only

[Ni!]

Don't try to tell me about "Primative"...I'm DOING IT Primative!

I'm not sure where that came from? I thought we were having a friendly discussion.

I agree with the spirit of the game line of thinking, and I think most game cops do as well. I really doubt you'll get ticketed, but according to the way the regs are written, I think you could be if the gamie wanted to. My (limited) in-the-field experience with cops is that their knowledge of the game regs and laws is surprisingly incomplete, so who knows what they'll do with an ambiguous regulation such as this.

Ni!

[billc_sbio]

I'm not sure where that came from? I thought we were having a friendly discussion. Ni!

Naw...

That wasn't aimed at you, Ni.

I was referring to the state or their enforcement trying to decide what's "primitive"...

I had a "traditional" rifle for M.L. hunting, it was the latest/greatest in 1860's target shooting technology and the new revision to the regs basically outlawed it!

I couldn't use the long bullet that it was designed to shoot (Length now has to be less than 2X Dia. )

Of course, set up the way it was designed, it was capable of hitting a Deer size critter, easily, at 250 yd.s! :shocked:

It was a worked over .58 cal. 1853 Enfield Rifle Musket (commonly used by both sides in our Civil War), rebarrelled with a precision .45 cal. target "slug" barrel, what they did in 1860s Target Matches. Essentially it was a Caseless .45-60, EXPOSED Musket Cap and all! :grin:

[billc_sbio]

The way it was described to me by a call to WDFW and talking to a few officers is that the spirit, intentions, ect... of the law is that the cap remain exposed to the elements.

This could be debated for ever and never finished. All I can say is do what you feel is right.

As far as purchasing a gun, I think it is clear it must be designed to have an open ignition. But according to some you can modify this as you please after the purchase.

So Chesapeake,

I'd be really interested if you'd call up your local game cop or Wildlife Dept. and ask them specifically if an accessory cover, such as a "Sow's Ear" would be legal to use during inclement weather especially on a <font color="red"> Flintlock</font>?

The only reason I say this is because I've never considered NOT USING one!

With a Flintlock Rifle and really wet conditions it just won't work if you don't keep it covered and protected from the wet.

The close fit of the frizzen cover to the pan will suck water right into the pan via capillary action and render the ignition system unable to fire, and thus totally useless!

Also, with a wet Frizzen, it's pretty likely you're not going to get any sparks either.

This is akin to telling a Bowhunter that on certain types of days he can take his bow and go hunt but he can't take any arrows!

Presented in this fashion I just wonder what they're going to say?

[TonTo]

The way I see the whole sow's ear controversy is like this,yes it is covering the frizzin,pan/npple cap what ever,but it is removed before the weapon is actualy fired.If you wanted to pack your muzzle loader around in a waterproof case so be it you will have to take it out to use it,thus exposing the action.The same can't be said of packing an inline around with the action open(yes I have heard this argument too),because in order to fire you have to close the action,thus sealing it at time of use.

That said I use a waterproof cap and a glob of bore butter.

[Chesapeake]

So Chesapeake,

I'd be really interested if you'd call up your local game cop or Wildlife Dept. and ask them specifically if an accessory cover, such as a "Sow's Ear" would be legal to use during inclement weather especially on a <font color="red"> Flintlock</font>?

The only reason I say this is because I've never considered NOT USING one!

With a Flintlock Rifle and really wet conditions it just won't work if you don't keep it covered and protected from the wet.

The close fit of the frizzen cover to the pan will suck water right into the pan via capillary action and render the ignition system unable to fire, and thus totally useless!

Also, with a wet Frizzen, it's pretty likely you're not going to get any sparks either.

This is akin to telling a Bowhunter that on certain types of days he can take his bow and go hunt but he can't take any arrows!

Presented in this fashion I just wonder what they're going to say?

I've never asked them about a sows ear. I hightly doubt they would even bat an eye at one over a flintlock.

I myself dont see a problem with a piece of leather over the pan of a flintlock. We often hunt with a book writer from the Seattle area that does it up traditional. He stays in a Tee-Pee(sp?), dresses the period, and hunts with a flint lock. He uses a sows ear and often times his gun will not fire when he gets back to camp.

I think(and WDFW seems to agree) the problem occurs when someone puts duct tape over the breach area of an inline effectivly sealing it off from the elements.

Your sows ear wont seal much of anything, heck I would argue that your flint with sows ear would be quite a bit more voulnerable to weather than an open breach cap gun.

I too would like to see the seasons go strictly side lock and flint lock. The problem with this is that states that go this route tend to model after Colorado and include the "bullet must be less than 2x its diameter" clause. Oregon is guilty of this. This almost completely eliminates the use of conicals. Again not a big problem, but I have yet to hear a decent argument for this rule.

[Chesapeake]

We seem to have lost the purpose of this post. BW I hope we gave you the info you were looking for before we wandered off the trail.

[Chesapeake]

I have a TC Hawkens. 54 Cal. Deer, elk ,bear no problem
And you can almost pound nails at 100 yards.
Powder and ball, maxi balls will very. Each gun has a different load that you will need to dial in.

Some of my unproven personal findings that may help others.

TC Hawkens have a 1 in 48 twist. This is a relativly slow twist and works well with a patched round ball. It will also work well with short conicals. The 300 grn range and lower work good in most 50 and 54 cal guns. The 430 grn conicals like the maxi-ball seem to not stabilize well with this slower rate of twist giving you poor accuracy.

[BW]

Thanks Chesapeake. Accually I'm finding this rather interesting. I don't know much about muzzleloader hunting yet so everything helps.

[scottishsetter]

I use a Ruger 50cal w/musket cap.Wish they had made a 54cal. before they cancelled this rifle.
I have built three underhammers(action is homemade)They work well in the rain/snow.I use beeswax to seal the top gap along the barrel to keep the water from running down/around to the action. Caps can be sealed onto the nepple.
My understanding on the 'open ignition' is the cap brass must be visible as the rifle is fired. Covers seem to me to be a good legal raincoat for the legal rifle.

[Chesapeake]

I think we are getting too controversial on this subject.Its really simple if you want to hunt with them just buy yourself a 30-30 and do it in regular season because thats really what your using ,not a muzzleloader in the sense it was supposed to be used in.If you want to hunt muzzleloader season then get a traditional muzzleloader and do it and stop messing around with the inlines and all the nonsense that goes with them.They were designed for one thing and one thing only and that is to get more hunters into the field with a supposed muzzleloader and increase the bottom line profits of the companies like Knight and the others.They do have traditional inlines but you only find them on a range and they weigh about 15 pounds.What would be wonderful to see would be the ODFW go to flintlock only on all muzzleloader seasons and that would end the arguement over which sights and which igniton and what kind of cap is legal.The seasons were designed for traditional muzzleloaders when they were created and not for 30-30 clones that loaded from the muzzle.IMHO only

What can I say, I'm on a muzzleloader kick this morning.

This is a little sitka blacktail I shot on POW a few years back. Knight Wolverine, 310 grn Knight high pressure sabot, 100 grn 777, velocity 1700 fps. Shot was 144 yards according to Bushnell with the buck facing me at a slight angle. The shot entered the chest between the first two ribs and penetrated the lungs, diaphram and liver stopping under the hide beside the stomach.

With elk at any range the bullet tends to stop under the hide on the far side.

As you can see, yes these guns are quite accurate, but they lack the power to kill effectively at ranges much over 100 yards. An elk shoulder blade will stop your bullets.

They arent a 30-30 by any stretch.

[Chesapeake]

Other fun findings:

Tang mounted peep sights. The rear sight is mounted on the tang,the front sight on the barrel. The barrel is held on the stock by hooking into the tang and a wedge or two. I have found that dismounting the barrel for cleaning can cause the alignment of tang and barrel to change when reassembled causing the sights zero to change. This can cause you fits if your big on accuracy.

[billc_sbio]

The way I see the whole sow's ear controversy is like this,yes it is covering the frizzin,pan/npple cap what ever,but it is removed before the weapon is actualy fired.If you wanted to pack your muzzle loader around in a waterproof case so be it you will have to take it out to use it,thus exposing the action.The same can't be said of packing an inline around with the action open(yes I have heard this argument too),because in order to fire you have to close the action,thus sealing it at time of use.

That said I use a waterproof cap and a glob of bore butter.

Yes, I thought about this a bit last night and realized this was a pretty valid argument and that really something like a Sow's Ear, on either a Flintlock OR a Caplock rifle would be valid.

Actually, what it is, is just a "mini-gun cover".

The gun isn't in a ready to fire state (that is can't be FIRED with the cover on) and all the requirements for the "exposed to the elements" rule apply at the moment of making the shot.

This wouldn't be the case with a setup that allowed the rifle to fire WITH some feature of the rifle's design covering or enclosing the cap.

Yes, we did wander here... :blush:

[Opportunist]

I shoot a Remington 700 ml inline. I tape the end of my barrel with electrical tape and I seal my cap with finger nail polish, when I remember. When I carry my muzzleloader in the rain I either have it slung on my shoulder pulled forward to where the action is tucked forward under my armpit and if I'm carrying it in my hands I cover my action with my hand. I'm not arguing about legalities of this. I know a guy that carries his inline in a buckskin traditional style sleeve on bad days in late season. I've considered it myself.

Remington quit making muzzloaders, so I would look hard at Knights.

Most of the manufacturers are catering there new designs to the midwest and eastcoast that have few restrictions on their muzzleloader equipment, so there are very few models that are legal in Or, Id, Wa and Co (the most restrictive states) The other western states allow closed ignition and scopes or don't have much in the way of muzzleloader seasons (Montana and Wyoming)

I set my muzzleloader to be legal in Oregon and I don't change it when I hunt in Washington. I shoot 100 Grains of ffg Pyrodex (I will switch over to Triple Seven when this pound is gone) 480 Grain white bullet and RWS musket caps. No fiber optics. I have the ability to shoot a closed ignition by installing a cap that goes over my bolt but have only done it when I hunted in Iowa where it is legal. In fact Iowa's only rule on muzzleloaders is that they must be loaded from the end.

[billc_sbio]

Opportunist,

I usually shoot real BP out of most of my BP guns, both Cartridge rifles, percussion pistols and Muzzleloaders.

However one of my Muzzleloaders, while a traditional sidelock in design, is the "Magnum" sort of rifle that allows for huge charges, bigger than what would benefit from that much real BP.

I've let some friends borrow this rifle for their ML hunts. I also suggested that they buy some Triple 7.

At the range we loaded it up with 777 and I think you'll be really IMPRESSED with that sub vs. Pyrodex R/S.

The 777 has some real authority to it and using 370g .50 cal bullets, it thumps the shooter as well as the game.

Besides only firing one (successful) shot during his ML Hunt, my one friend left me what he had leftover from the hunt...ditto with another friend.

I'm getting a pretty good supply of 777! :grin:

[Chesapeake]

My experience with 777:

Pro:
I love the stuff. It burns quick, and gives great velocity. Muscket caps seem to set the charge a little faster for a bit more velocity over #11 caps. Water cleanup is great.

Con:
It leaves a hard gritty white residue something like powdered porcelin. This tends to make about the third shot hard to load and the fourth neer imposible in some guns. I cary some patches to swab the barrel in this instance. With my guns this build up seems to increase chamber pressure and velocity resulting in my impacts rising up the target. When I sight in I run a spit patch between every shot so that my practice shots are on a clean barrel like my first(and hopefully only) hunting shot will be.

Knight black powder solvent(comes in bottle or pre soaked patches): I have found (dont ask how) that if you leave this solvent on stainless steel for an extended time( over night or longer) it will rust the stainless. Im not a chemist so dont ask me how. I just know that myself and my father found this out the hard way. I dont know if it will do this on blued steel.

Just my , feel free to test this out.

[Ni!]

I think TonTo made a pretty good point about the sow's ear. Not sure how a game cop would see it, but he convinced me.

Ni!

[Chesapeake]

Another little tidbit for the musket cap guys.

CCI musket caps have (6 pettles ?) that are thin and week.

RWS musket caps have 4 pettles that are much stronger.

In musket cappers the CCI caps often bend and crush when you try to feed them. The much stronger RWS caps work much better in cappers.

Note: RWS caps come in 2 forms that I have found. A big black plastic container of 100 caps with pettles, and a small round plastic container of 100 without pettles. The ones in the red container dont work well in a capper.

Knight red hot nipples: I and others have found that these tend to have a problem with the caps (#11 or musket) falling off easily. I like the TC nipples better, but have noticed that the ones on store shelves now have a small pin hole through the side. I'm not sure what this is for or if it is better or worse than ones without the pin hole.

[Ni!]

The pin hole is designed to reduce back pressure by venting it out the sides.

As far as the cap falling off the nipples, I had that happen in the middle of my antelope hunt this year for no apparent reason. Luckily I had brought along enough spares that I could make the change.

Ni!

Edit: apparently the software will let us say "nipples", but not "n i p p l e." That's kind of weird.

[adobe wall]

actually the hole is to ensure the cap can be removed after the rifle is fired.

If you shoot a muzzleloader a lot, you will eventually be in a situation where the side of the cap isn't broken. You'll have to peel it off the nipp.le with a knife.

Doesn't really matter if you hit what you aim at with your first shot, but if you are in a 2 deer/day area or if you miss, you want to be able to cap the weapon again quickly after reloading.

I did manage a quick reload once and killed a pair of slicks out of the same group as they ran across a clearcut in front of me. Another time I made a poor shot on a deer and only grazed the brisket, but it stopped a hundred yards out and I was able to get a second shot off and kill the critter.

I've had a number of instances, before I started shooting an inline, where I missed and couldn't get a follow up shot off due to having to fotz with getting the fired cap off the [celery sticks!].

regards, aw

[Sandbum]

How is the hole used to help remove a stuck cap?

It is for relieving back pressure, and first appeared on the TC nipples. It therefore helps with the blowback problem encountered with the Remington 700 ML.