Christians that are holier than thou

Jennie@ifish · 12-20-2003, 06:31 PM

I was raised in a Christian family and church, who often gave others the feeling that they were not as good as them.

It was Christians such as these, that left me feeling alienated, and you know... that word, "Guilty!"

I'll tell you, more than once it drove me further away from my Christian walk, than towards it.

You can't cram Christianity down someone's throat, and you won't be helping their walk by judging them, or their actions.

Especially kids these days, I find are sensitive to this, and right or wrong, I feel the need to take the kindler gentler approach.

Why would anyone want a God that is judgemental, condescending and scary?

I do think that God should be feared, but you have to understand the whole thing, to understand why. People just coming to their walk, or coming back, even, need to be reassured that our God is a forgiving, loving God before you scare the living daylights out of them!

It is still possible, today, for me to take a step back from God, when I come across people such as these. I hate to admit that, but it's true.

I simply clam up and move away from Christians who judge me, and try to out quote me with the bible, to settle a disagreement, or controversy.
It makes me sad, too, because I know we both love the same Lord.

Anyhow, I encourage those of you who have closer walks with God than I, to understand where some of us are coming from. Be gentle, and you may make a believer out of someone who might not be, with the alternative approach.

A step back, or a step forward? You may be responsible for that, so be careful!

Jen

[ 12-20-2003, 07:35 PM: Message edited by: Jennie@ifish ]

alwayslookin · 12-20-2003, 07:44 PM

Jennie,

I agree strongly with what you are saying. At Men's Roundup at Camp Tadmor this year, the speaker was John Fischer. He convicted me of my judgemental attitude towards others. He said very few people find Christ when they are preached at, instead, we need to love them to Christ. Wherever they're at, whatever they are doing. As a second career, I've decided to enter teaching, and it is the kid with the spiked hair and studded clothing that needs my love, not my judgement. I Peter 3:15 I hope to claim as my life's verse someday: In your hearts, set apart Christ as Lord. "Always be prepared to give an answer to ANYONE WHO ASKS YOU to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect." Why would anyone ask you? By living out Christ's love in front of them. j

Green Willie · 12-20-2003, 08:34 PM

Hi Jennie,

Just like eveyone else, I, also, get upset when our brothers and sisters in Christ display a "holier than thou" attitude. Sometimes that display, in my opinion, is a smoke screen for their insecutities. We all fall short, in our own unique way, and for some that is a very difficult thing to handle. So, some put on a veil called "holiness", then hopefully others will stay far enough away to not see through. Remember Moses kept the veil on long after the glory had faded from his face.

It is important to remember to love one another, in spite of their attitude towards us. Prayer is the only answer. Prayer for ourselves, that we may see if we are a stumbling block for others. And prayer for others, so they may came to know us for our heart, not our flesh.

Of vital importance for us all to remember is that our righteousness is but filthy rags. That it is only by the blood of Christ that our garments are made white as snow. How can we claim credit? We can't. We can't look down our noses at others? The old log and speck parable comes to mind here. Therefore, if we give glory and thanks to God for and in all things, it is my belief that it is easier to love one another as Christ taught. I don't know about you, but for me this is very difficult. Hence, prayer, and humility. All Christians need to pray for one another, so that we may all be the great witness cloud. God called us all.

We need to be God's people, pointing towards God in all that we do and say. I'm not saying that every word we speak should be evangelistic. Rather, when God leads through His Holy Spirit, we should share Christ with others. If we follow His leading, then others will not feel as though we are pounding our Bibles, or cramming "religion" down their throat.

We must be cautious, however, that we do not commit the same sin/offense that we accuse others. That's why I have to depend upon prayer.

Anyway, just my few cents worth.

JN

[ 12-20-2003, 09:37 PM: Message edited by: Jetty Nut ]

happybrew · 12-20-2003, 09:05 PM

On another board I frequent there is this guy who keeps going on about how anyone who commits a sin after accepting Christ is doomed to hell with no possibility of forgiveness. Of course, he points out everyone's sins to them. Only he seems to be totally sinless. I'm sure heaven will be pretty lonely for him.

Yet when I reflect upon this guy's behavior, I can't help but be rather judgemental of him as well. [img]graemlins/eek13.gif[/img]

In fact, his holier than thou attitude provokes an intense "holier than him----->" attitude as everyone condemns his holier than thou attitude. It's amazing how it multiplies until it consumes everything in its path.

happybrew

Get Bit · 12-20-2003, 09:27 PM

This is a very interesting topic Jen. My family has fortunately found a church family that's incredibly loving. I feel blessed to be a part of it. This topic makes me think of the story in the Bible in John when the Pharisees were going to stone the woman for adultery. When they asked Jesus about passing judgement on her he did not comment. After repeatedly pressing him for an answer(to trap him) he told them that the one without sin in their life should cast the first stone. Obviously no one is without sin. We don't have to like the sin but Christ calls us to love the sinner. We have to demonstrate our Christian walk by being kind, loving, and encouraging not judgemental.

Jennie@ifish · 12-21-2003, 05:16 AM

I would LOVE to visit your church, Get Bit!

Jennie@ifish · 12-21-2003, 05:21 AM

It has long been my favorite song, "They will know you are Christians by your love, by your love...."

...and I'll tell you, it's true.

I can't count the number of times I have run into wonderful people, say... even at the check out counter at a grocery store. It's like you just know, when you see their spirit!

I hear myself thinking, "I want what she has!"

I have even been so bold as to say to complete strangers, "You know the Lord, don't you?"

They have so far, all answered, "Yes!" And seem to be pleased that it was noticed.

I do want what they have, and that is what makes me strive for a closer relationship, every day.

Jen

letsfish · 12-21-2003, 09:15 AM

Alwayslookin- John Fischer was great and everybody heard something that made them a bit uncomfortable- we have a habit of surrounding ourselves with Christians at the expense on the nonChristians and Gos's will.
"in Gentleness and respect..."
those were the words I was looking for and you found the reference too, thankyou.

Get Bit · 12-21-2003, 10:49 AM

Jen,

You are always welcome! Let me know when you can make it!

Wapato Valley Church(denomination,conservative Baptist) - Gaston,Oregon

Saturday nights at 5:30pm
in the Knights of Pythias Hall
Senior Pastor:Eric Schmitt

Plum Crazy · 12-21-2003, 06:01 PM

I grew up in a small church in Barton,Or and learned early on in my life that I am saved by believing in Christ's Sacrafice for me on the cross and his reserection. I am not a " Perfect Christian" I fall every day, every minute. Just ask the guys I work with. But I am saved and will ALWAYS fall short of the Glory of God. My wife WAS a non-believer for many of our 11 years of marrige and found the Lord a few years ago. (thank God). She always told me that my family and I made her feel uncomfortable early on because My parents and my brother who is now a youth pastor and myself were believers and were Bible Thumpers. We were not holier than thou. Her perception was that it was HARD work to believe and become saved. Think what you want. But I just tell people "Don't look at me Look at Him"
I am a Sinner and Will never be perfect but my daily walk with Jesus is my own and NO one elses.
I heard a speaker named Jay Cardie "Even Nice People Go To Hell" You can be the Nicest person in the world but it means nothing unless you have a personal relationship with God. You may Fall but it's the looser who doesn't get back up.
Fire

SharkbaitHoHaHa · 12-21-2003, 07:08 PM

I agree totaly with you.We are all equil in the eyes of God.

[ 12-21-2003, 08:10 PM: Message edited by: SharkbaitHoHaHa ]

Ryan Pultz · 12-21-2003, 07:12 PM

Jenny I totally agree one thing I always try and remember that person is not better in me you tell me one verse in the bible that tells me there sin is any less of a sin then mine. All I know is not one person on this earth is sinless we are human and that�s it! sure you can quote the hole bible I�m sorry the Lord walks and Talks with me just as much as he dose that person that can quote the bible and that makes it to church every time the door is open. in my opinion Not a one of us wretched humans is worthy of the wonderful gift given two us 2000 years ago but buy the grace of God we are given it and if we accept this gift we will all one day be able to fall on our knee's in front of God and worship him no mater how good we think we are on earth. Sorry this to is something I feel strongly about. Ohh and I go to Calvary Chapel SE Portland awesome church you all are welcome there anytime also. Rp

[ 12-21-2003, 08:13 PM: Message edited by: Ryan Pultz ]

rob allen · 12-21-2003, 10:28 PM

A.W. Tozer wrote in his book "Knowledge of the Holy" That the most important thing a man can do in life is to think rightly about God. The most important thoughts a man can have are about God and the most important thing about a man is what He thinks about God.

Our first priority in life should be to make sure that what we think about God is accurate. If we are innaccurate about our view of God then we are turning to an Idol. We MUST think accuratly about God!
God is a judgmental God. God does hate sin. Some (nearly all) people are separated from Him because of their sin. God is just when he condemns thoes people. God was just when He told the Isrealites to kill every single inhabitant of the promised land.
Yet at the same time God sent His Son to take away the sin of the world. God is loving and in fact God is Love. However that Love is based on Gods deffinition of Love nout our deffinition. When God destroyed Soddom he was acting in Love.

Jennie I totally agree with you we should humbly treat eachother with Love. God tells us to do that very thing. In fact He tells us that that's exactly how people will know we are His disciples.

My point is that we all need to be careful about What we think about God and to constantly make sure that we are Worshiping the God of the bible not our interpretation of that God. We cannot pick and choose the charecter traits we want people to see.

dla · 12-22-2003, 12:20 PM

Those of us who call ourselves "Christian" have to be careful to discern why we are uncomfortable with "holier than thou" types. Are we being convicted of our own sin by the Holy Spirit? Is the Spirit warning us of something? Or are we suffering from bad pepperoni?

The first requires action and honesty on our part in our relationship with God. The second takes time to learn how to heed God's guidance. The last one is just a little humor about life in these physical bodies.

Grantspastor · 12-22-2003, 12:30 PM

My experience with "holier than thou" types is that usually they aren't.

It almost always stems from an austere and legalistic understanding of God and the Bible.

CATCH AND EAT · 12-22-2003, 02:58 PM

Yep, and they tend to gossip a bit about us struggling ones too GP. I never intend to be the one to cast the first stone because I usually can't see where I'm throwing it due to the plank in my own eye. :shocked:

Nothing worse than the "rumor mill" to mess up someones walk with Christ.

However, The Bible is specific on how to obtain forgivness and the keys to the Kingdom. Only You and God really know what's what and who's going where. Just make sure you're ready well before your time or unexpected time comes. Pretty simple and oh so hard to live because of our human weaknesses. [img]graemlins/1zhelp.gif[/img]

Get Bit · 12-22-2003, 03:37 PM

Adiboy,

Glad to hear you're having fun with the pontoon boat. Hope you have a great holiday!

Get Bit

PayDay · 12-22-2003, 11:31 PM

Jen, this is a really thought provoking topic.

Hmm, let me see... don't judge, and as Happybrew pointed out, that includes not judging the judgemental! I'm going to have to work on that one.

Jesus gave us a really tough assignment when he said we should love everyone... some people are a lot harder to love than others.

A lot of years ago I was on the phone with a customer who was very irate, not being very rational, and was just plain difficult. I was having a really tough time trying to work with her to resolve her problem when something inside prompted me to ask her "are you a Christian?". She paused for a moment and I was hoping I hadn't offended her when she said "why, yes I am". The tone immediately changed, we solved the problem, and we ended the conversation on a very positive note.

I don't know if that story has very much to do with the topic, but it demonstrated to me at the time how much a little love can help. God bless.

Hey Get Bit, just to let you know, the pontoon boat is a blast. Thanks again.

Martin85 · 12-23-2003, 02:53 PM

I wish I had the guts to pass this on to my mother inlaw. She is new to religion and has gone off the deep end with the mine is better than your attitude.

Trollin · 12-25-2003, 08:11 PM

One of my Pastors once told me,it should hurt you as much to give a rebuke as it will hurt the person you are rebuking. We are required to speak the truth, but it must always be done in love.

yooper · 12-29-2003, 06:51 PM

Two people in love confide in each other. When I'm in need of advice I seek a friend whom I love and trust. I would never seek a stranger, nor would I open up to someone I hate.

That's what makes "Love thy enemy" such an amazing "unwordly" concept. As long as someone is your enemy, they will never turn to you for anything. But if you continue to show them love, no matter what they do to you, perhaps one day they'll love you back. Once they love you, perhaps they might even hear what you have to say. :-)

I'm reminded of God's number one characteristic. God loves you, he always has, he always will. You can struggle all your life with God and fight him (Like I did). But the day you turn towards him is the day you'll realize how much he has always loved you.... My ears are now wide open, he's won my trust. I seek nobody else...

So, I agree, Love is where all things "START". But note my emphasis on "START". Once you've gained someone's love, never forget the "truth" you must graciously share with them. "God loves and wants to stop fighting with them." Help them see that.... God will take it from there. :-)

feisty's wife · 12-31-2003, 09:19 PM

I like your comments, Jen...as always. I was at one time a person who was into Churchianity, but after I have done a large amount of looking into thr real history of the "Christian" church, and the origins of the NT books, along with all the doctrines thrown out, I have found that God is nothing like He is portrayed, unless that is what aperson expect...you get what you expect. I have also found a very condescending attitude from some former friends, who now dismiss me, but that is ok. I have yet yet ti receive an answer from a person on ifish to any ? of mine, probably because i fit the label"New Age", labels are whatever. Anyway, Jen, I admire your candor, tite lines

glassblower · 01-01-2004, 01:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by alwayslookin:

He convicted me of my judgemental attitude towards others.

As a second career, I've decided to enter teaching, and it is the kid with the spiked hair and studded clothing that needs my love, not my judgement. j

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Hate to say it man, but that is passing judgment based solely upon outward appearances. Your only goal is to attempt to convert them to your ways, make them look and act like you. God does not look at the outside, he looks into the heart. It is whats in a persons heart that matters, not whats in their hair. That is why I refuse to attend ANY organized religous gatherings, groups, churches, etc. To much judging based on nothing realalistic, just hypocritical fantasy of a so called perfect christian world. Get real, no ones perfect, all christians are sinners (I know I am) and I don't claim to be a christian. (my faith flys solo) I do not think it is nesassary to go to a building (church) to have faith in god. Sorry, but the "kid with spiked hair" comment gave me a need to vent... I have allot of friends with spiked hair, and many of them are very spiritual, and they are the least judgmentle people I know. Holy rollers are a majore turn off.

[ 01-01-2004, 02:45 AM: Message edited by: glassblower ]

Green Willie · 01-01-2004, 05:02 PM

My original post here was wrong. I apologize to anyone who may have been offended by it. I meant no ill will.

Glassblower, I sent you a personal email. I apologize to you here as well.

Mike Evans aka: Jetty Nut

[ 01-03-2004, 05:28 PM: Message edited by: Jetty Nut ]

feisty's wife · 01-01-2004, 08:34 PM

Jennie@ifish · 01-02-2004, 01:57 PM

I've been reading, and listening. I'm sad to see others disagree and to hurt others in their walk. I hope this to be a place where that doesn't happen.

Jen

Fish-n-Fever · 01-02-2004, 07:27 PM

The wisest man I have known said on more than 1 occasion #1 "keep your eyes on God and NOT on men/women and your walk will not be as bumpy"
he also said..#2 "Don't look and compare how your "religion" is better than anyone else's, after all man made religion God didn't"
His reasoning behind this was #1 it is better to congregate with a few hypocrites mixed in the crowd than to die and go to hell with ALL of them!
#2 man made "religion" so he can congregate together with like minded people. There is only 1 God and 1000's of religions.
I say this... there are 100's of excuses NOT to go to organized gatherings if you need one but there is only 1 good reason TO go, God.
Ron

Steelyhunter · 01-02-2004, 08:31 PM

Amen to that [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img] Know Jesus Know Peace No Jesus No Peace :tongue:

yooper · 01-02-2004, 11:49 PM

Glassblower,

If your faith is "solo", then you've created your own religion. This also implies that you are "all knowing" and that only you know the true "God". This would require devine revelation to you directly from God. For Example: He came into your living room and flat out told you the secret to life.

Or, you feel that God exists, but our current religions today just can't describe him accurately enough for you. So you throw it all out the window and start your own "modified" belief by mixing everything together and picking the best of each religion to fit your "belief" system.

If your confident you have the right "faith" system, then why are you even attacking someone else's faith? I can refer my faith system to the Bible, which never changes. Can you direct your faith system to something concrete besides your own "mind"? If not, then please don't try to correct someone into your own way of thinking, by claiming they think incorrectly....

Jennie@ifish · 01-03-2004, 05:00 AM

Thank you so much for that! Today, I will keep my eyes on God! :smile:

Private-Aye-Fish · 01-05-2004, 01:42 PM

Jesus didn't go into the house of the tax collectors and others to put them down. He did it to love them and offer salvation and show compassion to those who needed it most. There are no perfect Christians or churches. We all fall short of his example.

Pastor Ron the Sr. Pastor at Canby Newlife Foursqaure where we attend once said it best.

"If find the perfect church. Don't go there you'll wreck it."

I try not to judge harshly least I be judged by the same standards on judgement day. Compassion is what I seek and what I must give.

Lam, 3:22 It is because of the Lord's mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not.

happybrew · 01-05-2004, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by kokanee-killer:

Pastor Ron the Sr. Pastor at Canby Newlife Foursqaure where we attend once said it best.

"If find the perfect church. Don't go there you'll wreck it."

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">That reminds me of what one cardinal said when he was a prisoner of Napoleon. Napoleon said he'd destroy the church, and the cardinal replied something to the effect of "We cardinals have been unable to do so in centuries. What makes you think that you can?"

We had a visiting priest from Chicago this Sunday, and quite frankly the things he said alarmed me at first. He was very different from what I am accustomed to, but then as he continued, I realized he was presenting the same message in a different format. The message doesn't change, but the way it is presented can. Shame on me for being alarmed, and slightly judgmental because someone was different from me.

I think that the biggest barrier in our walk with God is precisely that which is most important: our love and forgiveness. Those are the two hardest things to do, and at the same time to be offered, and when offered to receive. Yet they are of crucial importance, as they are the test of our faith in God.

Someone throwing Bible verses at someone trying to convince them of something is offering them something besides an argument. They are offering love in the way they think they should. Even if they come across as judgemental, and they may well be judgemental, somewhere buried in that is a kernel of love that I think ought to be recognized. If they didn't care, they wouldn't say a thing. For me, the biggest barrier in my walk with God wasn't those who came across as judgemental, but those who came across as cold and uncaring, those who refused to come across in any way at all, who wouldn't recognize my presence, just ignored me when I said "Hi!", who wouldn't look me in the eye. I have the most to thank from those who were severely judgemental, as they forced me, although I never agreed with their conclusions, to examine their faith as they presented it, and mine as I was living it, and thus created a moment of decision. Even though I disagreed with their theology, I now thank them for that tiny kernel of love that made them concern themselves with my salvation, however misguided I may think their theology to be, which did infinitely more for me than those whose theology I may agree with, but who wouldn't even look me in the face.

Things are not always as they appear. If we look for the hidden opportunities, and recognize the love given to us in ways we may not like, we can benefit.

The story of Moses is an interesting example. If we read Exodus 5:19-21, and that which precedes it, we see that the Hebrews living in Egypt got angry with Moses, because his words caused Pharaoh to double their work load. Moses came to set them free, and THEY RESENTED IT! Do we resent the words people speak to us, when they are spoken with the intent to set us free? Sometimes those words are even plain wrong, unlike Moses who spoke, as Ex. 5:16 says, as if it were God speaking. But when we see clearly and with truth that they are wrong, do we exercise forgiveness for that? Or do we, like Pharaoh, condemn it and wish to double the work load?

We are called to love and forgive, and that we must do, even when it is difficult. That is the true test of our faith. We are not all martyrs in blood. Sometimes we are martyrs in words, and like Stephen, in Acts 7:59, we need to say "Lord, do not hold this sin against them.

happybrew

Private-Aye-Fish · 01-06-2004, 07:45 AM

[/QUOTE]We are called to love and forgive, and that we must do, even when it is difficult. That is the true test of our faith. We are not all martyrs in blood. Sometimes we are martyrs in words, and like Stephen, in Acts 7:59, we need to say "Lord, do not hold this sin against them.

happybrew [/QB][/QUOTE]

Very Well said. well said indeed. [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]

feisty's wife · 01-06-2004, 01:12 PM

Glassblower....you da man! [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]

glassblower · 01-07-2004, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jetty Nut:
My original post here was wrong. I apologize to anyone who may have been offended by it. I meant no ill will.

Glassblower, I sent you a personal email. I apologize to you here as well.

Mike Evans aka: Jetty Nut

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Jetty nut, I am not to sure why you are apologizing to me? I went back and read your previouse and see nothing offensive about it. I understand I offended some people in this area with my post and I apologize for the things I said that offended others as well. I am sorry.

glassblower · 01-07-2004, 11:17 PM

When I say I go solo in my faith, I am saying that I do not belong to any organized church. I read the same bible as everyone else. But I find churches to contradict one anouther. They basicaly confuse me, as there are to many areas that are looked at so differantly that I have decided I prefer to read on my own for the most part. There are a few people I talk to about god, on a personal level. With that said, I apologize and will be more respectfull if I post in this area again.

yooper · 01-12-2004, 07:53 AM

Glassblower,

Thanks for referencing the Bible as your source of religion. That makes my heart leap for joy!! I mean that in the sincerest sense.

In your previous post you stated you wouldn't be classified "Christian" which implies you don't follow the Bible. If you follow the Bible and believe in Christ... You ARE a Christian. Amen for that. :-)

You are having a problem finding a good Church. That's understandable. But you must continue to try. There is a Church somewhere that needs you just as much as you need it. We need each other, we need to help sharpen each other and face this world. You are a member of the same body of Christ as others. You have gifts to offer in terms of mind, skill, and many other things. As long as you fight the idea of joining a Church, I fear you are not allowing Christ to work through you. Since you read the Bible, you know that sitting on the sidelines is not an option. We need you in the game my friend... :-)

For now, may I suggest listening to John MacArthur at www.gty.org. While you are trying to find a home base, I think you will find that John's Expository teaching comes straight out of the Bible and leaves little confusion on it's hearers. I listened to John for a long time until I finally found a church myself.

Many Blessings.... I ask for your forgiveness if I ever come across to "sharply". I am a wretched man myself and would never imply I am better than though. Nay, I am far from the perfect man. :-)