Shooting from the road - a bit clearer...maybe?

[aye fsh]

Ok, a previous thread ( What is a road? ) had discussion about the legalities of what road was OK to shoot from. Obviously there is abundant variation in interpretation of this subject and I have a couple of pieces of info that I think may clarify things a bit.

I went in today to the Siuslaw NF head quarters here in Corvallis to get clarification on something I was told about 10 days ago, basically that it was illegal to shoot within 150 yds of any N.F. road. The context of this discussion with the ranger (?) was in regards to hunting the Mary's Peak area, more specifically the Corvallis city watershed, from my bicycle. Unfortunately the individual I spoke with was not in today, but the understanding was consistent within the forest service personnel I spoke with - they were absolutely understanding the rule to be that you had to be 150 yds off ANY national forest road. I asked to see the regulation in print and was given this:

Prohibited (36 CFR 261.10(d)):
(d) Discharging a firearm or any other implement capable of taking human life, causing injury, or damaging property as follows:
(1) In or within 150 yards of a residence, building, campsite, developed recreation site or occupied area, or
(2) Across or on a forest road or a body of water adjacent thereto, or in any manner or place whereby any person or property is exposed to injury or damage as a result in such discharge.
(3) Into or within any cave.

Of course upon actually reading the regulation with them it was decided they were in error in the 150 yards from the road rule they've been passing out (For how long now?). I strongly suggested that they needed to clear this up within their organization, to which they agreed.

If you take a peek at the Siuslaw NF website you will find, after considerable searching, info on hunting in the forest on their FAQ's page. In this section the question is posed regarding hunting in the national forest. The response is:

"Hunting is managed and regulated by Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife. Find complete information from the Hunting Resources section of their website
(http://www.dfw.state.or.us/resources/hunting/big_game/)
Please hunt safely and be sure of your target. Remember, you are sharing the woods with other people working and recreating close by!

from the ODFW regs, page 12 in hard copy, page 11 in .pdf:

VEHICLES, BOATS, AIRCRAFT, ATVS
No Person Shall:
• Hunt any wildlife from a motor-propelled vehicle. Exceptions: 1) Aqualified disabled hunter may obtain an “Oregon Disabilities Hunting and Fishing Permit” to hunt from a motor-propelled vehicle except while the vehicle is in motion or on any public Rd or hwy, or within Cooperative Travel Management Areas. 2) Landowners and their agents can shoot predatory animals from motorized vehicles on land they own or lawfully occupy.

-AND-

PROHIBITED METHODS
No Person Shall:

• Shoot from or across a public Rd, Rd right-of way or railroad right-of-way, except that persons legally hunting on closed rds within Cooperative Travel Management Areas are not violating current prohibitions on shooting from or across a public Rd. The same is true for other rds closed to use of motor vehicles by the public.

Another little tidbit that I got from a Fire regulations order for the Siuslaw NF dated 8/24/06. (being revised as I write this, but not in regards to travelling forest roads)
Prohibited within the Siuslaw National forest until further notice:

3. Possess or use a vehicle off forest improved roads*, except west of hwy 101 outside the Hebo ranger district. (36 CFR 261.56) On the Hebo ranger district this is allowed at the Sand lake recreation area only.
*Roads are those travel ways constructed for automotive use and maintained clear of flammable debris.

WHEW! So there's all the factual information I could gather on the subject. Looks to me like if you get both feet off the road bed, and I mean ANY road bed (I-5 included!), AND you're 150 yds away from buildings etc., you are good. Of course the ODOT or some other agency may have another reg hiding somewhere that could still get you in trouble!

Any one have any other factual, documentable sources to contribute to the discussion?

On a side note, I just about came unglued when the receptionist at the NF headquarters informed me of her opinion that all national forest should be closed to hunting to protect other possible users from potential injury. My response to her on the subject made very short work of that conversation!

[crabbait]

(d) Discharging a firearm or any other implement capable of taking human life, causing injury, or damaging property as follows:
(1) In or within 150 yards of a residence, building, campsite, developed recreation site or occupied area, <font color="red">or</font>
(2) Across or on a forest road or a body of water adjacent thereto, or in any manner or place whereby any person or property is exposed to injury or damage as a result in such discharge.
(3) Into or within any cave.

"Or" is the operative word here. It has a specific legal meaning, it is non-inclusive, i.e., this <font color="red">or</font> that. If a car dealer offered you free A/C <font color="red">or</font> custom wheels would you get both? If a road were meant to be included in the 150yd provision it would have been listed with the residence, building, etc., then it would have been restated in part 92) to include the "across or on" provision.

The law states that you cannot shoot within 150yds of a residence, building, campsite, developed recreation site or occupied area. It then states that you cannot shoot on or across a road, etc. I have discussed this at length with both State Police and ODFW and the definition for "on or across a road" has been that you cannot stand on the roadway or the maintained shoulder.

"Across" also means through the area that could possibly be occupied by a vehicle. A friend of mine shot an elk from his front yard. The elk was 200-250yds away in a field. At the bottom of the hill between my friend and the elk was HWY47, however, the highway was about 100' below him and completely obscured by the slope of the hill. The OSP wrote him a ticket but the judge threw it out because he shot over the roadway, not across it. There is that "specific meaning" thing again.

[aye fsh]

If you have a building within 150 yards AND are standing on the road, does that change the operative word from OR back to AND? JK, JK! I understand.

Seriously though I have heard so many different things over the years, 50 feet off the road, County road vs private road, on and on. I too have had this discussion with State Police as well as sheriff and forest service personel, not including the ones I spoke with today. There has not been consistency or conformity about this issue in my past conversations with officials. The response we got from the Trooper was it would likely depend on the interpretation of the officer involved as to whether a citation was in order.

One of the things I also learned today is that although the ODFW administrates hunting regulations in the national forest (bag limits, methods of harvest, etc.), they do not dictate rules for shooting around (from, across, what have you) Siuslaw national forest roads. That regulation definition comes from the CFR which is a federal set of regulations, which I got the impression the public may not have ready access to. I was also told different national forests may have different rules specific to their area (Siuslaw vs. Willamette vs. Ochoco, etc.).

So here's a question -
Say one is hunting in a cooperative travel management area where it clearly states in the ODFW hunting regs that it's okey dokey to shoot from or across the road. This area is also on Siuslaw national forest land, you're walking on a "travelway constructed for automotive use and maintained clear of flammable debris". The NF reg specifies it's prohibited to discharge "Across or on a forest road".

Whose definition / regulation applies?

[baltz526]

if a state or county officer witnesses it, no ticket should be issued. if a fedral law enforcement officer witnesses it, the ticket, if written (officers option) would be to appear in fedral court. then it would be up to you to prove yourself innocent

[sunshinefisherman]

I had a discussion with a OSP game officer (captain) last year.

He said "All we ask is that you step off the road" He pointed out that legal definition of "the road" can include the right-of-way which can be as big as 300 feet (probably were the 150 foot thing came from.)What he was talking about was the portion of the road in which you travel. An officer would have to want you real bad to ticket you for being off the traveled portion of the road but within the right-of-way. Probably only if you were giving him lip.

[Snakebite]

First of all, you gotta get caught for doing it . Secondly, the rule is meant to keep folks from accidently shooting sombody on the "road" D'OH Homer! that's all it's all about. The rest is BS. What don't you understand about "down range"????????????????????

[Swamp Puppy]

it is my understanding that all you need to do is step off the road / shoulder to be legal to shoot. provided you are not shooting across the road, OR within 150yards of a structure such as a house.

i've also heard that excluded from this is gated or blocked roads. so, if you are walking in behind a closed gates / roads and see a deer/elk/grouse etc. etc. you can legally shoot from the "road". any thoughts on that?

[aye fsh]

Baltz526-
Guilty until you've proven yourself innocent? I dunno.

Sunshine fisherman-
That stepping off the road, no matter the road, seems to be the consensus of all informed persons I have spoken to that generally fits the reg, unless of course you happen to cross paths with an official having a bad day. The enforcement officials (State Police) are in the position of having to interpret for themselves on a case by case basis, and therein seems to lie the difficulty. It is not defined clearly enough to apply to all situations.

Snakebite-
What's the deal, are you like 10 years old or something and can't join in on an intellectual conversation without being insulting or sarcastic or just an A-hole? If you don't have something positive to contribute then how 'bout you just keep yer pie-hole shut? This is NOT a discussion about down range safety zones, unless you have some source of information that somehow connects that issue to what is being discussed.

Swamp puppy-
According to crabbait you can possibly shoot "over" the road, but only if you get the right judge, eh? I would agree that walking or biking or horse back riding behind a closed gate or on a non-maintained system would not be an issue.

I seriously think that most people understand the intent, but it is still a loosely defined situation dependent on the particular set of regulations set forth by the property owner and subject to the interpretation of the officer involved.