2000 Toyota Tacoma V=6 pinging.

Rank Amateur · 08-19-2006, 01:02 PM

I have a 2000 Tocoma with the 3.4 v-6, stick transmission. I have noticed for quite a while that if I drive on an even grade for a fair distance and then start to climb a grade, I will get some pinging and then go away (which I would consider normal). Lately I am getting a lot more pinging, even on slight grades or moderate acceleration. I usually run 87 octane gas. I ran some 89 octane and still had the problem. 92 octane the problem seems to go away. Is this a gas problem or something with the engine?

I did a Sea Foam treatment today to help remove any carbon build up. P/U has 105,000 on it. Plugs have about 45,000 on them. I have a service manual and I saw a few reports on websites that the EGR valve can cause this problem, but I don't think my P/U has one. Any ideas?

wthr4d · 08-19-2006, 03:16 PM

doesnt sound liek anything a tune-up and better gas for a while wont fix. try the thing that one gas station was promoting ...do 5 tankfulls of the good stuff and see if you still have the problem when you switch back to the lower grade.

oh and check your owners manuals, in my '84 subaru it specifically said that I should not use any grade of fuel that had lower than 91 octane. I would run on lower grades but it behaved likeyou are saying.

Paul

IDWITHELD · 08-19-2006, 05:58 PM

Were you at wide open throttle on the up hill?

If yes, EGR is not used.
I would verify your base timing and do the usual tune up. Oh, make sure you have the correct plugs.

Any codes from the computer?

FireCat · 08-19-2006, 06:06 PM

Rank....There is a number of things that can cause "pinging" or "spark knock" I have had this trouble in the past expecially when cars should all run on 87 octain, except for high performance cars.

Stealerships can cost you money, expecially when they say they diagnose the problem and you have to take it back.

So I would make sure your using good gas, if you are using gas that is at a slow moving gas station, you might get some "bottom of the tank" gasoline, where stations that move their gas alot keep putting it in their tanks and it very seldom gets to the bottom.

Then there is the O2 sensors the can cause the computer to think differently, when they are weak or going out and you will have false messages sent to the main computer, thus it will not send enough gas to the starving engine and you will get the pinging noise.

I dont know if you have a EGR valve my Jeep had one untill 99 now mine dont this can be solved with a quick call to a service department.

I am not sure if you have a cam sensor this adjust timing and if it is going out it can send a message to the computer that you do need advance timing when you dont, or dont when you do, so when you pull a hill this could throw things off

Also "to hot" of spark plug could do this, and also as you indacaded carbon build up, But as I do, go the cheepst rout amd then move up. Unfortenatly when you get the sensors going out they may throw a code, or a good service guy can hook it up to a computer and see if the reading is weak or strong.

So I would "shade tree" it all you can then if nothing works out take it in and have the service people check it out for ya, it will cost you some, not much, but it can save a lot of headaches....Good luck

Rank Amateur · 08-19-2006, 06:35 PM

Thanks guys, I forgot, it is throwing no codes currently at least I'm not getting the dash light indicating a code. I can't find an EGR and I don't think it has one, but yes the phone call would determine. The pinging is when going from easy going to moderate load, like starting up a hill, usually at highway speed and in 5th gear. At WOT the pinging goes away. I Sea Foamed (boy did it smoke) it an have put in some super gas, so we will see. I have gotten away with 87 octane in the past. Yep, oxygen sensors might be an easy fix, 100,000 miles is quite a distance for them, right? Sure hope it isn't a knock sensor, they buried the darn things. Yes, it does have a cam sensor, so that is a possibility. I don't want to keep driving it with that much pinging, might be a little hard on pistons.

MattPark · 08-19-2006, 08:57 PM

100K is about the end of the road for heated oxygen sensors, and they fact that they are generally only used in low and mid throttle positions may point to them being the problem.

Rank Amateur · 08-19-2006, 09:07 PM

Thanks, I saw two one on either side of the catalytic converter, I will start there. I will check the manual to make sure there are not more.

SPAZZ · 08-19-2006, 10:49 PM

well since i work at a stearlership as one before me posted. i will give you my take on it.
CHANGE FUEL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
switch to premium fuel and your problem will be solved.
WE ARE NOT ALL OUT TO SCREW YOU.
thanks-Brian

FireCat · 08-20-2006, 10:19 AM

On the contrary my friend Spazz, Higher octane when not necessary will damage your engine. If your car or truck is reccomended to run on 87 octane and you decide to put 93 all that will do for you is start wearing on your internal parts alot faster. Because of the fact that your compression is not high enough ( Other factors also accure such as amount of air/fuel being put in combustion chamber which would raise compression) it will not be able to bring that higher grade of octane to its near autoignition point causeing left over resedue in your combustion chamber. Basically what it comes down to is your combustion chamber tempature is not near hot enough to burn that fuel. So you will get a lot of carbon build up around your valve seats, and carbon on your piston, and it will be washing out your cylinder walls. Obviously you will not notice this diffrence right away, or in the near future, but after using highe octain for a good amount of time you will start to see oil consumption and soooner or later even smoking out your tail pipe. So unless specified on your owners manual, or sometimes on your gas cap, for your application there is no need to use a higher grade octane, just a big waste of money, especially in the long run if you are planning on keeping your vehicle for a while.

Now with saying all of this, when you start pinging then changing to a different brand of gas, if this does not help then you have a problem with something that must be eleveated, or you will just cover it up by runnning higher octain, when you are specified to burn 87 all timming in the computer is set at factory to run with 87 octain, sure there is "bad gas" but why pay more for higher octain from the station where you get it, why not just change stations AND GET A BETTER GRADE OF 87 OCTAIN.

I had a Dodge stealership tell me to burn a higher octain when my jeep was pinging, I went to a engine builder who told me to check out my O2 sensors my front O2 sensor was real weak, meanning that it was not sending a true signal for more gas, but not dead enough to cause a "code" to make check engine light come on, I changed out the O2 sensor and no more pinging.

Now I dont want to advacate that sll stealerships are "crooks" my next door neighbor is one ( works for a service dept} not a crook! but many time they will not chase down the problem they will tell you to put a bandade on it.

Case in point another good friend of mine had a problem with his dodge 4x4 it was pinging like heck they told him to put high octain in in it, it helped but before it ran great with 87. Then noticed that occasionaly it would still ping He took it back in a insisted that they check out the computer so they did what he ask and found out that the computer was off and making the engine run to much in advance, they reset or "FLASH" his computer back to original specs and guess what? no more pinging.

He ask a retired service forman what would of happen if he would of kept running high octain, he said "unless you have a engine tuned to where it burns off the high aditives that are added to make the gasoline sutible for high compression engines, or engines that run turbo chargers" what dont get burned off in a normal engine just builds up and you will pay for it down the road"...Now I DONT WANT TO FLAME ON ANYONE HERE I have used the stealerships many times for help, But I have more than once get on their butts and force the issue, and then things worked out.

MattPark · 08-20-2006, 10:26 AM

Higher octane will NOT damage an engine. Gasoline engines are not "auto-ignition engines" like a diesel, and as long as there is enough oxygen for the given fuel, whether it's 87 or 93, it will burn. Auto-ignition is what you DONT want, and that's exactly what's happening in his engine.

If you have too much fuel (which basically doesn't happen with modern fuel injected, strictly emissions controlled engines), that can wash oil off the cylinder walls, contaminate the oil, and leave deposits everywhere it can.

The reason his truck is pinging is either he is lean or has too much timing for whatever reason.

Stratocaster · 08-20-2006, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Higher octane will NOT damage an engine.

My old Mustang GT started pinging(due to carbon build up on pistons i suspect)and tried 92 octane. Not only did the pinging stop but it had a noticeable gain in power. Ive never heard of higher octane fuel hurting a motor. I drag raced a 351w with cast pistons on 107 octane Sunoco for years. The only thing it hurt was my wallet.

FireCat · 08-20-2006, 05:01 PM

I think I will clarify myself here Gents...todays actane is not what yesterdays octane was, And Stratocaster YES yesteryears thought of "highter the octane was always better"

I use to run 105 chevron "White pump" in my Dodge 413 daily.
But todays octane is "junk" it is NOT the same, just that the higher octane today has aditives to slow the burn rate down so higher compression engines "DO NOT" ping.

you must rembember that TIME is the biggest contributor to the phonomonon refered to as spark knock or "detonation". It will take time for the end gases that are in the chamber to spontaneously ignite. Reduce the allowable time and there will be no detonation. So please understand if your car is set at factory to run at 87 and it has been running great with 87 changing to 92 will help but only use it to se why you cant burn 87 and get it fixed then go back to 87.

Here is a aticle out of USA today and there are many more to back these claimes up:

Premium, in fact, sometimes is worse fuel than regular. It resists knock because it's harder to ignite than lower-octane fuels. As a result, some engines won't start as quickly or run as smoothly on premium, notes Gibbs, the SAE fuel expert.

High-test does have a potential fuel economy benefit. It is slightly denser than lower-octane gas, meaning there's a little more energy in a gallon. But the small difference is hard to measure in real-world use, and that same density can contribute to undesirable buildup of waste products inside the engine.

No data show that engines designed strictly for regular run better or longer on premium.

The Federal Trade Commission, in a consumer notice, emphasizes: "(I)n most cases, using a higher-octane gasoline than your owner's manual recommends offers absolutely no benefit. It won't make your car perform better, go faster, get better mileage or run cleaner."

There is "no way of taking advantage of premium in a regular-grade car," says Furey.

"There is no gain. You're wasting money," insists Jim Blenkarn, in charge of powertrains at Nissan in the USA.

So Mattpark, I will agree with you running Premiumn will not hurt you engine in the sort run, but the aditives that are put in the high octane will not be burned off unless it is put in a high compression engine, thus they accumulate and after sometime can cause damage, this is a proven fact, now if you drive you car hard or have a good 20+ back and forth to work or whatever, you can burn these deposits out, but not to many people now days drive that far.

Now i will guarentee you if this were the 60,s or early 70,s I would be burning the highest octane they would have, but the way they make gas today, it is totally Junk to what it use to be.

And pinging can be do to many of reasons:
carbon build up
Bad fuel pump pressure
inefficient fuel injectors
Cam sensor faulty
02sensors faulty
Bad gas
timming off
computer not set to spects

These are some but mainly it is just one or two working together
Have I ever burned high octane? yes I have and found out why I cant burn 87 anymore got it fixed and then switched back.

IDWITHELD · 08-20-2006, 06:30 PM

Wide open throttle uses a different air / fuel / timing strategy than cruising.

WOT generally relies on MAF, TPS, ECT for air/fuel / timing table selection

wot = fixed tables, NO emissions control.
Cruise = emissions control. Cruise = problem (pinging)

I bet your problem lies in the O2 sensors / EGR system.

I would also check for vacuum leaks. Un-metered air from a rotted hose can cause the same symptoms.

MattPark · 08-20-2006, 06:47 PM

The unburned fuel/additives issue and harder starting wouldn't be an issue for any newer cars (likely all built since OBDII started in 95/96), any symptoms like that would make it impossible for the cars to pass emissions standards from the factory. The difference in 87/93 is tiny anyways.

SPAZZ · 08-20-2006, 09:45 PM

OK

MattPark · 08-20-2006, 11:41 PM

The ONLY way premium fuel can improve the average driver's mileage is if the engine is equipped with a knock sensor, and reduced knock (some knock is ok) from the higher octane fuel lets the ECU advance the timing. Otherwise, you theoretically get less MPG, as premium fuel has less energy per gallon than 87 octane.

In the case of this Toyota, I believe it is equipped with a knock sensor, and if that's the case, he is likely getting less mileage than he would if it wasn't pinging. The difference, however, may too small to see.

There's a few of us that program our own ECUs for turbocharging and stuff like that, and we can also lean out the mixture and add as much timing as we can at cruise, but we definitely aren't the average drivers.

The factory computers have to be programmed to run the engine perfectly in any situation, so they don't have the freedom we do.

Rank Amateur · 08-21-2006, 08:40 PM

I haven't noticed the mileage being off much, but I don't keep close tabs to begin with. I believe my truck has two knock sensors and they are buried.

I topped off an half empty tank of 87 octane fuel with 92 octane and drove to work today. Definately more power and smoother, no pinging. I also dumped the rest of the can of Sea Foam in the tank. I might do one more tank of the good stuff and then switch back and see. If I get the pinging again, I will replace the two oxygen sensors. Thanks for the input and idea's.

Mokai · 08-21-2006, 09:08 PM

I have a 2003 Tacoma V6 and had the same problem..Where do you get your gas???? I use to get gas at Costco and fill it with regular..The Toyota techs told me to use Cheveron 87 oct and run cleaner through the fuel and it would be fine..They were right..Switched to that and its been fine since..

Rakkasan · 08-22-2006, 02:38 PM

I have a 2003 Tacoma, V6 and the only gas I will burn is Chevron. I put regular in it and have never had a problem. I run an addative through it every month and an injector cleaner. You may pay more for Chevron gas, but it is worth it. I have also done all of my services which makes a differance.

Dave B.

jimh · 08-22-2006, 02:42 PM

I'd try a different brand of gasoline. In my experience, some will make pings happen even though they are rated the same octane.

foxer · 08-23-2006, 11:54 PM

The seafoam should take care of the problem. I would stay away from Costco/Arco/Astro etc. I talked to a gas delivery guy one night. He said that Shell and Chevron use their own formula while Costco/Arco buy whatever is cheapest at the time. Stick with the 87 Chevron and you should be good to go.

Rank Amateur · 08-28-2006, 10:04 AM

Put some 87 octane in it and the ping came right back. Ok, O2 sensors first.

HntnFsh · 08-28-2006, 01:19 PM

You may want to check on the price of those o2 sensors first.They are spendy!!! I think about $150 apeice for my Camry.Its been awhile so I could be off a bit. And you probably have 2. If you buy aftermarket be careful.If the wires arent the right length the resistence could be off.So they may not work right.

You may be better off to get the code checked first,if you havent already.It could save you $ in the long run.

Threemuch · 08-28-2006, 01:33 PM

Are you burning any oil? If you are, might be your intake plenum gasket.

Mokai · 08-28-2006, 06:31 PM

Just turn up the radio and all those noises magically go away..

Rank Amateur · 08-28-2006, 07:24 PM

Funny, that is exactly what the wife did! No, doesn't burn a drop between oil changes. Napa-$114 apiece! Oh, well.

What is interesting is that the worse time for the pinging is after the engine is warm, but has been turned off for a short duration, I think the O2 sensors fit that bill to a tee.

Pete · 08-28-2006, 07:38 PM

I think Oregon has a bunch of crummy gas being dumped here, since there is no effective inspection program. I bought some gas last week which really made my engine sound like a tin can full of marbles. I added some premium of a different brand, before towing my boat over the hills to Ifishstock. Much greater strain, but no pinging at all! Keep track of the gas you buy and see what makes a difference.

IDWITHELD · 08-29-2006, 11:18 AM

What is your base timing?
Have you verified fuel pressure?

Fish_N_Russ · 08-30-2006, 11:36 PM

I have the same engine in my T100 and I run Chevron regular mostly and/or 76 regular and dont have a problem with pinging. Gas grade/brand will def make a difference with this, both my dad and wifes newer dodge pickups will ping with regular gas, but with plus it goes away. Also Chevron and Texaco put in more additives than the cheaper (arco/costco/safeway/fred meyer) brands. Might try a bottle of octane booster with a good brand of regular, that should help.

lucky2 · 08-31-2006, 06:05 AM

Quote:

On the contrary my friend Spazz, Higher octane when not necessary will damage your engine.

There is NO WAY that higher octane fuel will damage your engine

It will only damage your wallet!

OutTrolling (ot) · 08-31-2006, 07:16 PM

As many have said, not all 87 octane is the same and brands can make a huge difference. I had a Volare some years ago that was dying a slow death. I mentioned it to the guys at work and one spoke up and said, you aren't using ARCO are you? I told him most of the time. He says that is your problem. I ran through a couple tanks of Chevron and Wa'la, new life in the old girl.
Another point that has been made here already is the octane. I was listening to a program on the radio about the types and ratings of gas. The gas guru said there are specs to gasoline but they are very broad with a tolerence of 7 points. An octane of 87 plus or minus 7 can be huge. I believe it was the gippo discounts that get leftovers that you have to watch out for. Maybe there is someone who frequents this site who can shed more light on this than I. I don't know if it is still recommended with todays fuels, but the old timers method of up-ing the octane many years ago was to put approx a pint of straight diesel in a tank of gas. "Always" stopped the pinging and I don't remember of hearing about engines going bad prematurely. Ask your grandpas about it.

Rank Amateur · 09-02-2006, 10:44 AM

Replaced the two O2 sensors, noticed an immediate differance in idle speed, a lot lower. Took a short test drive, good so far, but usually the pinging occurs after the engine is good and hot and outside air temp is hot.

nativedipper · 09-02-2006, 03:34 PM

My wifes Supra did the same thing. She had to run premuim or it would ping. When we started getting are gas at Costco we tried the regular and it was OK. Everywhere eles it was premium or it pinged.