Huntin’ Dog Poll

[rimrock]

0

[waterfowlin101]

RR...

you nailed it...I love to hunt, but hunting with a dog is in a league of it's own!!

I'm a lab fan myself, but haven't experienced many others first hand. Hunted over a lab/shorthair cross for a year or two...great dog. Hunted real well for ducks and fr upland...and I mean real well.

I do prefer to train dogs myself.

Jon

[Hunt'nFish]

Rimrock,
I think the time I've spent training my 10mon lab is the only thing keeping me sane right now. We usually work the drills twice a day (lunch time and evening) keeping it fun the whole time. He hears the truck pull up and he KNOWS it's time to go "play".
I have been pleasently surprised by how easy the training has been. I just started early w/ him and set the expectations. I didn't push him too fast, and let him tell me when he was ready for the next step. Of course obediance training was 1st. Sit means SIT.

We'll see how he does in the field, but I'm confident he'll do great. Of course he's a waterdog, so things are a little simpler than w/ a pointer.
I love chukar/hun hunting, so perhaps I could teach him to hunt'em up too?

Right now training has progressed to the boat. I do a lot of bass fishing and he loves it. Gotta kiss every fish before released too.

Hunt'nFish

[The_Duck_Master]

I'm a lab guy. Train them myself. I too, believe that watching a dog work adds a great deal to what we do. It is a large part of why I enjoy bird hunting more than any other.

I saw a signature on another forum that pretty much sums up my philosophy... "Conservation is hunting with a trained retriever." That really hit home with me once again last year when I ended up on a hunt that for various reasons resulted in us not having a dog there with us. We lost some ducks in thick cover that day that I have no doubt a dog would have recovered. Whether its upland or retriever, watching a well trained dog work is a beautiful thing.

[Hunt'nFish]

Well said TDM! That sig stuck in my head as well. That's exactly why I decided to get a pup.
Amazing to see a good dog work wether it be a retriever or a pointer.

[Bugle4em]

I've have always been partial to the German Shorthair. Elli is my second GSP and is about 3 yrs old.
She is a great all around dog. #1, she is great with my daughter. and last year she was doing good on our pheasant/chukar hunts.
She will retrieve my ducks in the cold of winter without hesitation. She is also just a great companion dog.\
and I love the fact that when we are out fishing, she will remind any strangers that it is not nice to sneak up behind me.
She just scares them a little .

[onstep]

I train everyday and love it. I actually enjoy my dog more than hunting. To the point where I do hunt tests with him in the off season so we get birds year round. Actually, our dogs get live flyers just about every week. My boy loves to work and quite frankly is po'ed when he doesn't. We just finished our last test for this year and I thought I'd give him the week off till Saturday. Needless to say he's been climbing the walls and driving me crazy.

[Irish Pennant]

I'm a lab guy and I enjoy the heck out of training my dogs, Its just that I'm a rookie at it. I have one (AKC) that I trained for a year and is now with a pro trainer and another one that I'm training myself (rescued with no papers). I've learned more by working with a pro trainer than I ever learned by reading "Training for Dummies" or by watching vidios. The lab that I have with a pro I hunted with last year and he did ok, I didn't yell at him nearly as much as the other hunters that were duck hunting with thier dogs. You could hear some of those hunter/trainers clear across the lake.

I plan on trying to compete my AKC dog up to at least the senior leval in the Field trials, I have a lot to learn to be able to get him there. From what I've heard it will make him more desirable as a stud (he'll like that) and in a few years I should be able to get a new pup or two from his line.

As for your poll question, A pro isn't doing it for me, he's doing it with me. I'm not so proud to admit when I don't know something or to know when I've reached the end of my knowlege and then I seek help from those that do know.

[BW]

Well I'm a springer fan myself. I belong to the local springer field trialing club,and have shot for some of the formal training sessions. Also, at least in the passed worked the trials. However I only hunt my dog. I never have ran a dog in a trial. A Club of like minded dog people sure helps when you are have a training porblem,lots of opinions.

[taggbro]

You didn't have a poll for using myself and a pro trainer so I selected pro trainer.

I've been training labs since I was old enough to hold a leash. I was 12 when I won a grand champion at the state fair for obedience. After that I was hooked. Trained about 5 of my own dogs and countless dogs for other folks. Mostly obedience but have enough experience for the full gamut to run field trials.

Anyway, with a good book and patience, anyone can train a dog obedience and to hunt. However, preparing a dog for field trials starts at a certain age and progresses throuout the dogs life. There is a process that takes one heck of alot of time and most amateurs don't have that kind of time.

All of my pups go to what I would call obedience training and force fetch with a pro. It's time consuming and (for me) it has to be done right with no interuption. Once that is complete, I then decide if the dog is going to be a contender in field trials or a potential washout. If decided to be a FT contender, get the pocket book out and get the best trainer you can afford. If washout is a possiblility, hit the hunt tests. This you can train for yourself with a little good advice. If you are just interested in hunting, easy enough. You know what you want your pup to do.

But keep this in mind. I have hunted with many, many labs. Other peoples labs. Most people think their dog is great because it swims and retrieves ducks. I can't count how many labs I would have like to thrown overboard for lack of manners. Breaking on the shot, won't honor another dog, moving all over the blind, not steady to wing and shot, etc.

If you want to train a retriever yourself, train it by gosh!
And do it right. Or bring the pup to a pro.

Here is some food for thought:
Those with alot of training experience usually bring their pups to pros for obedience/FF.
Those w/ little or no experience do it themselves.

I'm not trying to steer you away from training. I'm trying to steer you towards training them right.

I forgot to add that I currently own 2 labs (4yrs old and 10 month old) and a 3 year old GSP. The 4yr old lab I trained myself with no pro training and the GSP got obedience/FF from Tim Schillerif at Sauvie Island and my new pup "Rev" is with Butch Higgins for obedience/FF as we speak.

[uhmw]

boomer the zoomer(yellow lab) -one year he just nailed a pheasent from behind with out me ever taking a shot(thats good training). He also ground sluced a goose and then swam it down to the center of the willy where he finished it off and promply returned it to me like I traind him too :Problem was it was off meldrum bar in the middle of the summer In frount of a gazillion shocked on lookers :blush: He was never good with the comand NO or stay if it involved game birds.

[onstep]

Taggbro- well said. I couldn't agree more about what people think a good hunting dog is. It's all about standards and quite frankly a lot people need evaluate theirs.

[garyk]

The second question needs the choice of - "A versatile breed"

That's why I've had Drahthaars; point, retrieve, flush and trail all in one dog.

[water and sky]

I really enjoy my labs as hunting and home companions. They could have better training, especially for holding steady to shot. That gives me the next thing to work on. The time spent training those girls is fun and a great way to stay connected to the sport during the off season. I would like to have a pointing dog for upland, but only so much room and time. Two guys that I hunt upland with got "pointing labs" last year so this season it will be interesting to see how they do.

[BW]

I see very few dogs that are gun steady. I sometimes wonder if anyone trains this any more.

[taggbro]

I see very few dogs that are gun steady. I sometimes wonder if anyone trains this any more.

It is soooo easy to train steadiness. It takes time and patience but it's easy. Everyone should do it.
And you are right - Not many train this and it is so important. Nothing ticks me off more than hunting with a dog that jumps on the shot, looks all over heck for a bird that may or may not have even been shot!!!

[BW]

I know. And it's so cool to see a dog stand and wait for the command to fetch. The dog isn't finished until it's steady.

[onstep]

Personally, I see steadiness as a safety measure as much as anything.

[BW]

Yes, but it helps the dog get a good mark on the bird if he isn't running after it as it falls.

[rimrock]

You didn't have a poll for using myself and a pro trainer so I selected pro trainer.

If you want to train a retriever yourself, train it by gosh!
And do it right. Or bring the pup to a pro.

I couldn’t agree more…I sincerely apologize to any here if I made it seem condescending in anyway if you choose to use a pro to train your dog you would be in any fashion inferior as a handler for that is not my feeling. I admire a good dog no matter its training background. I further would applaud any owner who spends many hours working with a pro to learn how to train their dog…in reality that isn’t much different than “doing-it-yourself” with a published book. Which is what I have always done , not much difference really for I didn’t come up with most of the techniques I use…so that would be splitting a mighty fine hair I think we would agree. In a way I too have used a “pro” through written media.

IMO sometimes hunters sell themselves short and don’t think they could do a good job on their own as it were and I would encourage hunters to train their own dog for the field. It feels good to do and to me gives a great feeling of accomplishment…again not that using a pro knocks this down. In no way does a person who trains their dog on their own is in any way “better” far from it and I again apologize if I even inferred that I just really love hunting dogs…even more than the hunting itself.

[Hunt'nFish]

Taggbro,
Good comment on the point about gun steady......
As you know Chance will be hunting in a boat a lot of the time. I have gathered from reading and watching it is important for a boat dog (or blind) to know his place in the boat/blind. By that I mean WHERE in the boat he is supposed to stay. Chance has been taught that a rug is "his" place. Whether it be the house, truck or out camping, his rug is his space. He knows when I put him on his "rug" he is to stay put until told otherwise. To him the command "on your rug" is the same as "sit". So I figure a rubber mat in the boat would do the same to create a space in the boat that he knows is his.

Also since I hunt with guys that also have dogs, Chance has to receive his name in conjuntion w/ a "back" command and hand signal. Permission to go is me giving him his name and a command, anything else and it's a no go for him. In other words he has ignore any commands he hears unless it's addressed to him by me w/ a hand signal to go. So he has to honor another dog.

So far I've only had him out in the water with one other lab (which wasn't trained). He did great. Even thought the other dog bolted everytime, he held fast until I sent him. I was so proud. What was really cool was even though he is still growing into his skin, he outswam the other dog who was a 2 or 3yr old. Again he made my heart swell.

If my approach is all screwed up please comment. Although it is not my intention to train a trials or hunt test dog, I want to train him as if he were.
As an ignorant, amature lab trainer w/ only the benefit of a couple books, I know I'm probably doing it mostly correct and partly wrong. So please correct me when you see something wrong.
Please keep in mind that he'll sit at my side as well as on a rug, it's just that in the boat he can't always be at my side nor do I want him to be. But the rules are the same...Sit means SIT.

Next time I'm down your way, I'll look you up. I'd like you to see him work. Your comments and criticisms would be appreciated.
For the benefit of others, "Chance" is the product of Taggbro's breeding and brother to "Rev" his 10mon old. Although Chance has the benefit of generations of breeding, he has a knucklehead for a trainer.....ME.
Hopefully I can do both Chance & Taggbro justice. I'm certainly trying.
Hunt'nFish

[onstep]

Hunt'nFish- Are you going to teach your dog to run blinds? (Birds that fell and didn't see them fall) The reason I ask is at some point you would like to be able to que him with a release command to get going. Most people say back to the dog on blind and the dogs name to retrieve a mark (bird the dog clearly saw). It helps the dog understand he needs to handle (take signals) versus running out to some destination.
It helps with keeping them out of old falls, a real problem for the average meat dog. IE an example you shoot a bird and your partner shoots a bird. Your dog clearly marks your bird but doesn't see the other bird fall 30 yards beyond. You send the dog and he picks up your bird as he should. Now you line him for the other bird send him and takes a perfect line which happens to go through the old fall. Now he starts to hunt in the old fall. In order to get him out you will need to handle. So you would whistle blast and signal a silent back command. More than likely (my young dog will always do this) he will go back to hunting. So you blow again whistle stop and give the back command except now you give it verbally and he goes.
He goes because the foundation work you did with force fetch and in his early years when you taught him the fetch command that became back while you did your force to pile. When that command is used it gives a powerful reaction to a properly forced retriever. My young dog looks like he has a rocket up his butt when you give a strong back command. That is because of a solid force fetch foundation, trust in me, and he knows there will be a bird at the end all this.

[taggbro]

Taggbro,
Good comment on the point about gun steady......
As you know Chance will be hunting in a boat a lot of the time. I have gathered from reading and watching it is important for a boat dog (or blind) to know his place in the boat/blind. By that I mean WHERE in the boat he is supposed to stay. Chance has been taught that a rug is "his" place. Whether it be the house, truck or out camping, his rug is his space. He knows when I put him on his "rug" he is to stay put until told otherwise. To him the command "on your rug" is the same as "sit". So I figure a rubber mat in the boat would do the same to create a space in the boat that he knows is his.

Also since I hunt with guys that also have dogs, Chance has to receive his name in conjuntion w/ a "back" command and hand signal. Permission to go is me giving him his name and a command, anything else and it's a no go for him. In other words he has ignore any commands he hears unless it's addressed to him by me w/ a hand signal to go. So he has to honor another dog.

So far I've only had him out in the water with one other lab (which wasn't trained). He did great. Even thought the other dog bolted everytime, he held fast until I sent him. I was so proud. What was really cool was even though he is still growing into his skin, he outswam the other dog who was a 2 or 3yr old. Again he made my heart swell.

If my approach is all screwed up please comment. Although it is not my intention to train a trials or hunt test dog, I want to train him as if he were.
As an ignorant, amature lab trainer w/ only the benefit of a couple books, I know I'm probably doing it mostly correct and partly wrong. So please correct me when you see something wrong.
Please keep in mind that he'll sit at my side as well as on a rug, it's just that in the boat he can't always be at my side nor do I want him to be. But the rules are the same...Sit means SIT.

Next time I'm down your way, I'll look you up. I'd like you to see him work. Your comments and criticisms would be appreciated.
For the benefit of others, "Chance" is the product of Taggbro's breeding and brother to "Rev" his 10mon old. Although Chance has the benefit of generations of breeding, he has a knucklehead for a trainer.....ME.
Hopefully I can do both Chance & Taggbro justice. I'm certainly trying.
Hunt'nFish

Sounds like you are doing an awesome job Mike.
Most amateur trainers don't have the time and patience to achieve the results you are already seeing. I would say you are ahead of the curve. Of course, you know I saved the best pup for last donchya Great job and I look forward to seeing Chance work soon. And where's my pictures (of chance)!!??

[waterfowlin101]

Nothing ticks me off more than hunting with a dog that jumps on the shot, looks all over heck for a bird that may or may not have even been shot!!!

But I bet nothing ticks the dog off more then when somebody stands up and shoots and nothing falls... :grin:

I think what [whoopsydaisies!] people off most about the quoted scenario above is that it makes them feel like an idiot for missing...

Jon

[ogrejager]

I think what [whoopsydaisies!] people off most about the quoted scenario above is that it makes them feel like an idiot for missing...

There is that. :blush:

[Hunt'nFish]

Onstep,
Yes, he runs blinds now and takes verbal & hand signals great. As part of his daily lunch & evening sessions he regularly gets blinds over old scent. Somehow he seems to know what's old and what's new. Actually I think he relies on testing the wind more than the ground.

I have not transfered him over to the whistle yet but right now I can call his name and put him on sit and he plops his butt down and looks back for instruction. And I can cast him right left or back w/ verbal and hand. He's ready for the whistle...I just haven't found a whistle w/ a unique enough sound yet. I don't want to start him on a plain jake generic whistle , I want him to learn "his" sound.

He is well past baseball and onto doubles and blinds, one he can see and another he can't. I've done every variation of doubles I can. I now have to trick him on the throws so he can't see'em....in fact he doesn't even know I threw a long, then I'll throw a short left or right. I'll line him up on a straight away long and naturally he wants to head for the one he saw fall and I can stop him with a sit command and then cast him left/right/back. he looks somewhat confused at first...kinda like "hey wait what are you doing?" but he is getting more and more confident & trusting with me to the point that now he just obeys and casts as indicated. I always make sure he finds it as trust is the key. he needs to know that when I cast his it's for a reason and yes their is something to find, even if he didn't see it.

One thing I do...and I'm not sure if this is right/wrong ...but when he gets close to a blind fall, I let him know by giving him a "find it, find it, find it". This assures him he's doing good and on track. It also gives him a point of referance from which to work. Many times he'll circle to get the wind, and I just let him...he'll find it.

As a hunter I'm not concerned w/ straight lines, if he wants to circle to catch the wind go ahead. Last year I watched as "Peanut" TDM's dog marked a fallen widgeon that promptly went underwater in the reeds. She ran out and appeared to head the wrong direction, but was in fact circleing to get downwind. You could tell when she picked up the scent as she did a 90 degree hard turn into the wind. She found that widgeon nearly 50yrds from where it had gone underwater. I probably would have stopped & cast her but after seeing that, I think I'll trust my dog's nose over where "I" think it should be.

I think the key to blind retrieves is the dog trusting you AND you trusting your dog. Teamwork!
Hunt'nFish

[rimrock]

But I bet nothing ticks the dog off more then when somebody stands up and shoots and nothing falls...:grin:

Yes my dogs must learn to have mucho patience :grin:

Back when I hunted only with Labs I had one even bark at me when I missed an EASY shot...I looked at him and said come on like watching the birds fly off is new to you :tongue:

[duckboy]

Here is the deal with old Alex.

I have found him to be a great upland bird flusher, rabbit flusher, General all around hounddog. But swimming is one of those things he doesn't generally do for fun unless it is over 100 degrees, or if there is a bird thrashing in the water.

I hunt him, and hunt him alot for waterfowl. I probably get him out on 20- 30 hunts a season for water based days afield, and the other 20 days we take another dog.

I am not a dog trainer. I know how to give my boy praise for a job well done, but Alex is a freelancer, he isn't in the game so much to make me happy. I mean, If i give him praise, he'll take it, but the long and short of it is this:

He gets that bird out in the Big chop, bad current, among sealions and seagulls and sand,

Amidst the muck and the swampgrass and slip sloppiness of it all for one and one reason only.

He wants to have that bird for HIMSELF. (but I understand that)

Some guys scream and yell at their dogs... I hear it every season, and It makes me feel bad.
I feel bad for the dog, but moreso, I feel bad for their keeper. The guy doing the yelling is missing the point.

For me, A Great hunt is a boatride in the dark with a mutt and a couple of buddies. That is it.

I dont expect a dang thing from Alex. He is a dog pound mutt that has brought back many hundreds of birds and animals for me.

I find that by expecting nothing, I am never dissappointed, and always happy with any goodness that dog can give.


I can't get him to do a blind retrieve, unless it is to the duckblind to retrieve some sandwiches.

If We shoot a bird, and the conditions of both scent and sight are a bust for Alex, It is a real challenge. Occasionally I have to help him out by wading out in the river a bit, so that he can see the bird in relation to where i am pointing.

If he can get the scent, or see it thrashing or floating... it is history.

I am not knocking those of you that do have dogs that fetch to hand, heal, and obey. That shows a heck of a lot of hard work on the trainers part.

I haven't done that with Alex, I could, but I have found it easier to adjust my expectations than to train him.



I cant complain.

There is a song By that band that had the Granola eatin, gun totin, crack addict guy with a liver he got from someone else, that goes "If you cant hunt the dog you want, hunt the one your with."



I do. and I rarely have any regrets, and If i do have one, it is usually that I regret not wrestling with that black rain rotted dog on the banks of that big muddy river just a little more. Having a couple of more minutes to watch him play and root around.

I haven't got kids to watch, so for me my mutts are pretty precious, and every minute spent with them is a good one.

ps, here is a good way that i have found to keep my dog from breaking on a shot too early .

It is a 35 lb anchor and a 3 foot line.



(That is duckbrother Zachariah and world famous "Madison" the duckhound beside him) Shootin the pilings'.

[James in Idaho]

Duckboy:

That is actually a really good way to keep him steady. That's what I use, and my mutt is an AKC master hunter. However, when I'm hunting I'm usually concentrating on hitting the bird, not the button of my e collar. A short lead is an excellent way of limiting the untraining that naturally happens when you take a dog hunting. Some folks are more diligent, but I'm out there to have fun, and so is my dog. At almost 10, he sure deserves to have fun on the hunt, he's done all and more than I've ever asked him to.

What REALLY loosen up a dog is working as a flushing retriever, most serious field trial types just shake their heads at that. Oh well, I love chasin' pheasants over a good flusher!!!!!!! As far as blinds go, it is really nice to have a dog that will do a long blind, saves walking.

[taggbro]

HuntnFish sez:
"One thing I do...and I'm not sure if this is right/wrong ...but when he gets close to a blind fall, I let him know by giving him a "find it, find it, find it". This assures him he's doing good and on track. It also gives him a point of referance from which to work. Many times he'll circle to get the wind, and I just let him...he'll find it."

I probably wouldn't make it a habit. You need to be careful not to totally make the dog reliant on you. This comes into play mostly on cripples or birds that land a long way away. How many times have you thought a bird landed somewhere only to find that it was somewhere else? This is why a straight line is so important and for the dog to stay on that line. I happen to know that your dog will be (if not already) an excellent marker. Marking is way more important, especially at a young age, than scent. A good marker will stay to the line and won't need your help. Dog needs your help when they get off the line. Does that make sense?

At this point in your dogs age, focus more on marking than on scent. Most labs have good noses so scent won't be an issue. Good marking ability is a horse of another color. Marking and desire are the most important breeding features for me. I happen to know your dog will be a great marker and will have great desire. How you coordinate the two is up to you. I would focus on the marking. Start at a hundred yards and work up to 500 yards. It's funner than all get out to watch a dog mark a 500 yard bird and retrieve the mark! More a novelty than anything as you won't have many real life 500 yard retrieves. But it is cool to watch. Your buddies will think it's cool too.

[wdlfbio]

Rimrock, You're my kinda bird hunter. If someone invited me on a hunt and said I could either bring my gun or one of the dawgs, the gun would stay home. It's all about watching the dawgs do their thing for me.

Like someone else mentioned, no category for versatile dawgs. I have two pointing labs. Trained the first one myself (needs 1 more pass for his MH) and split the training of the younger one with a pro (breeder).

I am all about having a steady to flush dawg in the uplands, but steady to shot in the blind. I do most of my waterfowling from a Pod, layout style (seaducks) so steadiness is required. If the dang dawg gets it in his head to break, he's going to have a very, very , very , very long swim. It happens about once a year, usually on a cripple we're paddling after and I get a finishing shot on. I get to the bird before him, retrieve it myself, and then paddle around for a while with him trying to catch up.
And yes, I agree that lots of folks think their dawgs are better than they are. Most of these people, though, don't realize the ability of these dawg and how easy it can be to get basic (required in my mind) improvements.

[rimrock]

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[duckboy]

IMO just don’t say your dog is “better” than another guy’s hunter because he runs a perfect straight line or never takes even one step. That got old and it still is to me. I hope people don’t do that here since nothing ruins dog talk like the mine is better than yours game.

Darned right.

I have some buddies (QH'S Paw, Duckbrother Zachariah, DevinCackler, And Captain Mike) They have worthy Retrievers.

None of those guys has ever had a bad thing to say about My "less than textbook" dog , If anything, they shouted accolades to him from the shore, encouragements, and victorious praise of a job well done.



For lots of us folks, our dogs are basically our kids.

I haven't a child, never will.

I took on these dogs many years ago, not as hunters but as companions.

Hunting is but a few short months of a year, but Companionship is an every day deal.

These hounddogs are Mastercompanions/good hunters.

Oh,

By the way... if any of you guys knows of a Poodle or terrier (airedale) that hits it hard for birds... blast me a P.M. I am going to put together a site for atypical hunting dogs/ mutts and Heinz 57's.

[James in Idaho]

Standard poodles can and do participate in AKC Retriever hunt tests. I've watched a few, most do the land work just fine, but seem to have water issues. Still, there are a few with "MH" on their registration papers.

[Hunt'nFish]

Thanks Glen. I'll back off on the help and let him "find it". Your right if he can see it fall he'll mark it. The "find it" help comes on the blinds just to let him know he's in the general area, his nose will do the rest.

500yrd marks? Yikes! ......I can't throw that far..
I'd need a launcher. Hey anyone have a spud gun??? A dummy should fit a 3" potato gun right?

Now seriously, can those dummy launchers really fire them that far??
Hunt'nFish

PS: Rimrock, Good thread. Your right watching a good dog work is a much fun as shooting. This is exactly what pushed me toward getting my first pup. I've watched some of my fellow Ifishers dogs work and just HAD to have one myself. Pretty cool to watch a fellas face light up after a tough long cripple retrieve that you were sure couldn't be recovered. Or a dog that brings back 3 live cripples before shooting hour even starts!

[duckboy]

0

[wdlfbio]

Hunt'nFish,

Those marks aren't THROWN 500 yards, but they are thrown about 500 yards away. Some poor soul has to sit out in the field all day with a bag or bucket of stinky dead ducks and do the throwing. Gets very boring...

[Hunt'nFish]

Taggbro is a pro, I am not. I don't think I'm going to worry about those long retrieve just yet. We have a lot to focus on before we worry about that. This year I think we're just gonna focus on the basics and see how he's doing at the end of the season. Based on my shooting, he'll get plenty of long crippled retrieves as it is.

MAN I'M ANXIOUS FOR THE SEASON TO START! I want to get him on live birds so bad! Grouse season is 1st right???