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Old 12-20-2000, 12:27 PM   #1
PeterMac
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Default Re: Sex-changed Salmon Cause for Alarm

I understand those salmon have equal rights in the state of oregon now!!

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Old 12-20-2000, 12:35 PM   #2
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Default Re: Sex-changed Salmon Cause for Alarm

This is news? I mean, c'mon. Aren't salmon classified as an androgenous fish anyway? This is nothing new!
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Old 12-20-2000, 12:46 PM   #3
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Default Re: Sex-changed Salmon Cause for Alarm

Started in Alabama??..lmao you have got to be kidding me. Remember, they still have the battleflag flying down there, plus the state is going to the supreme court to make sure English stays as the main language in the state. But since you think it migrated from the South, I would have to say it migrated from Georgia Halloween is over O's, so you can take that dress off now. Well while you have it on, sing us some show tunes

Like it's any surprise that these fish are sexually confused...look it was found out in San Francisco for crying out loud. What'd ya expect? Those Columbia River salmon sounds to me like they were planted from the Seattle area.
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Old 12-20-2000, 12:47 PM   #4
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Default Re: Sex-changed Salmon Cause for Alarm

This is probably more than any of you bargained for but here goes anyhow!

Quote "Fish have the same chromosomal sex composition as any other species: females have two X chromosomes and males have an X and a Y."

While I haven't had time to read the original article this mistatement really stood out in the first post of this thread.

In both birds and fish the homogametic sex (XX) is male and the female is the heterogametic sex. But different species of fish can have this reversed and pacific salmonids fall into this category. In both birds and fish (with XX males) estrogens present during development (triggered by genes on the "y") chromosome) cause the embryo to develop into females. Without the production of estrogen the default sex is male. In humans it is the opposite with females being the default sex and male gonadal (can I say that?) development triggered by the production of testosterone. This makes both birds and fish susceptable to the male sex becoming feminized during development causing the formation of ovotestes (combination of ovaries and testes). This has been fairly well documented in both species as a result of exposures to environmental estrogens, ex. organochlorines (DDT and others). There has been documentation of feminized male fish in streams and rivers of Great Britan as well as some of the urban areas in the midwest. There are many chemical compounds which we, as humans, discharge into the environment which are capable of triggering this response. One other hypothesis is that increased amounts of estradiol from birth control pills are entering our rivers via sewer treatment plants which do not remove this type of chemical contamination.

Pretty scary stuff!!!

Basically the authors are referring to a process termed "Gynogenesis" where phenotypic sex is manipulated to the opposite of genetic sex. That is that female fish (or males) may be treated with hormones to change their phenotypic sex. Example Female fish (xx) treated with testosterone (androgens) to change phenotypic sex from ovary to testes. These fish now produce sperm which is "xx". Cross these males (now xx sperm) with females (already genetically xx) and you get all female offspring. The reverse can also occur with treatments of estrogens on males.

For those of you so inclined here is a good article:

F. Piferrer & E. Donaldson 1990. Sex Control in Pacific Salmon. Recent Advances in Aquaculture, vol 4.

[This message has been edited by Hammer Bob (edited 12-20-2000).]
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Old 12-20-2000, 01:00 PM   #5
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Default Re: Sex-changed Salmon Cause for Alarm

What he said
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Old 12-20-2000, 01:05 PM   #6
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Default Re: Sex-changed Salmon Cause for Alarm

In other words he said, "you are very very bad people" I have also seen studies on the variation in temperatures affecting sex of different species of animals, including humans. Makes me wonder who funded and asked for this study to carry on? A big business perhaps?
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Old 12-20-2000, 02:18 PM   #7
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Default Re: Sex-changed Salmon Cause for Alarm

HB is correct in what he has posted. This phenomenon is not uncommon in some reef fishes (Wrasses, Parrotfish, and Groupers), that if the dominant male in a harem of females is eliminated, the largest female will take over the missing males function. This is called protogyny. It has long been suspected in the Columbia River that the increase in pesticides and the theory of increased estradiol could have negative effects upon not only our salmon populations but also many of our other resident species.


One item to note, these salmon that are induced into protogyny have it occur while still in the river as eggs, alevins, or possibly fry.


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Old 12-20-2000, 02:49 PM   #8
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Default Re: Sex-changed Salmon Cause for Alarm

Hmmmmmm. Feminized male fish.

Thats why I haven't been getting bites. They have just been slapping at the hook.

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Old 12-20-2000, 02:54 PM   #9
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Default Re: Sex-changed Salmon Cause for Alarm

In hemaphroditic species there is also protandry where the fish is first a male then later in life changes to a female. Fish are really incredible in their life strategies!!

In pacific salmonids the most labile period for changing the pheotypic sex is when the fry first begin feeding after yolk sac resorbtion. If this is truly happening in the Columbia and other river systems these fish are being exposed to substantial amounts of these estrogenic/androgenic compounds on a continuing basis at fairly high levels. Very good reasons for concern as it could easily shift the populations to a really skewed sex ratio...in this case predominantly males!!
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Old 12-20-2000, 10:02 PM   #10
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Well dog gonadal. What are we going to do about this?
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Old 12-20-2000, 10:43 PM   #11
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Default Re: Sex-changed Salmon Cause for Alarm

No wonder pink is such a popular color.

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Old 12-20-2000, 11:29 PM   #12
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So much for fly fishing now?
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Old 12-20-2000, 11:30 PM   #13
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Default Sex-changed Salmon Cause for Alarm

From www.sfgate.com (San Francisco Chronicle)

Sex-Change Salmon Called Cause for Alarm

Scientists fear for survival of species as males change to females in large numbers

Kim Murphy, Los Angeles Times

Seattle — Four-fifths of the female salmon spawning in the last free-flowing reach of the Columbia River apparently began life as males, raising troubling new questions about the survival of the Pacific Northwest’s signature fish species.

In a study that could provide ammunition in the battle over the massive hydropower dams that traverse the Columbia and Snake rivers, researchers at the University of Idaho and Washington State University found significant sex reversals in the fall chinook salmon that spawn on the Columbia’s Hanford Reach in central Washington.

The research is unsettling because salmon runs in the Hanford Reach — where the Columbia passes relatively unbridled through the vast Hanford nuclear reservation — are the healthiest in a region where many are on the brink of collapse.

The cause of the embryonic gender shift is unknown, but there are suspects. Environmental estrogens are one possibility. These are the chemical byproducts, potentially traceable to pesticides and industrial runoff, that have been linked to issues like early puberty and infant mortality in humans.

The other potential factor is the hydropower dams, which produce temperature fluctuations in the river of the kind known to cause gender modifications in fish.

If this is the case, it could add fuel to the debate over breaching dams in the West to save the region’s disappearing salmon runs. The Clinton administration is scheduled to release its final recommendations on that issue tomorrow.

One possible culprit — radiation from the Hanford reservation — has been discounted. The amount of radioactivity known to be going into the river is too small to have produced these kinds of changes, the study’s authors said.

Researchers cautioned that it is too early to draw conclusions from the study, which examined salmon in a single year and did not look at the effects of the gender shifts on the overall salmon population.

“I think maybe what this points out is there’s a whole lot we don’t know or understand right now,” said Gary Thorgaard, biology professor at Washington State and co-author of the study.

Both Thorgaard and James Nagler, a University of Idaho zoology professor, said there may be worrisome implications if the gender-altered fish produce generations that skew the population too heavily .

“Unfortunately, I can’t put this in a positive light,” Nagler said. “But we can’t really say anything relative to whether this could be a major factor (in the decline of salmon populations).”

Using a genetic test developed by British Columbia fisheries scientist Bob Devlin — who previously has documented gender shifts in fish — the salmon researchers were able to identify chromosomes in the fish after they had spawned and died.

“We have found that a majority of the female chinook salmon sampled carry a genetic marker that is found only in male salmon. The best explanation for these results is that these females have been sex reversed and are in fact male (in origin),” Nagler said.

There were no similar reversals in hatchery salmon that spawned near the Hanford Reach but had been hatched in well water — indicating that whatever caused the phenomenon was likely in the river water while the fish were developing in their eggs or shortly after hatching.

“These results may explain in part the difficulties some salmon have had reproducing in the Columbia River basin,” Nagler said.

Fish have the same chromosomal sex composition as any other species: females have two X chromosomes and males have an X and a Y.

While normal females will produce nothing but X-chromosome eggs, leaving male fish to determine the sex of the offspring, the sex-reversed females will produce half X-eggs and half Y-eggs. Y-eggs that are fertilized by Y- chromosome sperm will produce a YY-chromosome “super male” fish.

Indeed, this may already have happened, the researchers said.

“Whether this kind of fish is viable, that’s a big question,” Nagler said. “But if they do survive and they were to return in appreciable numbers to spawn, the scenario is we would have an increase in the number of males in the population because all the offspring of this fish would be male.”

Over a period of years, this could skew the fish population so far that reproduction rates would fall, the researchers said.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...20/MN80877.DTL

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Old 12-20-2000, 11:40 PM   #14
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Default Re: Sex-changed Salmon Cause for Alarm

Great topic Baja,
I think the gender reversal thing started some where in Alabama about 23 years ago and seems to have found it's way up here....I think there is very little chance of it reproducing though

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Old 12-20-2000, 11:48 PM   #15
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Default Re: Sex-changed Salmon Cause for Alarm

And I thought the YY's congregated in the bay area.
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Old 12-21-2000, 12:15 AM   #16
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Default Re: Sex-changed Salmon Cause for Alarm

While this is a serious thread, can't help but think that an oversize Wedding Ring set up might attract one of those Transvestite salmon...?
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Old 12-21-2000, 12:59 AM   #17
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Do you mean one fish putting it on the fin of another, or do you mean an angler using a wedding ring lure? I don't get it. But I've never wanted to attract a transvestite either. Although I have fished with Os. Ya know, I'm not really sure about the guy. I get the distinct feeling he is a woman trapped in a man's body . In a man's bad body . I have read that you can rectify that with surgery Os. It should be a piece of short work for the doctor. Then we would have a tranvetite fisher angling for transvestite salmon. ... Whew!

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Old 12-21-2000, 08:08 AM   #18
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Hey_Yall-

You folks call that stuff you speak down there English?
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Old 12-21-2000, 02:10 PM   #19
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Default Re: Sex-changed Salmon Cause for Alarm

A women acquaintance of mine once asked me if I were a "lesbian trapped in a man's body"? I really had to think about that for awhile before really understanding what she said...
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Old 12-22-2000, 06:54 AM   #20
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Default Re: Sex-changed Salmon Cause for Alarm

"Proper" ANGLISH yessum missum daisy.
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Old 12-22-2000, 03:49 PM   #21
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Rt I guess when put it like that,....hummm lets see,thinks about women 24-7 yep I'm a ***** for sure

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