Ship of Fools

[Pilar]

Touche'. Evidently my wry sense of humor was not lost on you sir. We can no more give up our destructive ways than we can quit breathing. But, you can make choices that lessen the impact, think about it.


Maybe one of my buds would let me borrow a dory and I could go on a flat day.

The bend is your friend!

[Hoosier Daddy]

Good point here Pilar. Just posted something similar in another thread. Here's another question that might demonstrate the point as well.
How many of us voted this year for the guy we thought would do the best job, as opposed to voting for the guy who offered to help us as individuals the most?
Given my background, job, etc., by all rights, Al Gore probably had more to offer me individually than Bush, but I hate Al Gore and I think he's an idiot (no, Bush isn't any better), so I didn't vote for him. And Nader is a whack job. So, did you vote your conscience, the guy who would do the best for our country as a whole, or did you vote based on your own special interests?

Not trying to imply right or wrong here, just making a point. Selfishness is often the basis for most of our personal decisions, and I'm just as guilty as the next guy.


Fished this morning on the Clack for an hour, no fish. Looking better though. (token fishing thread)

Nader a whack job? He's done more for Americans than either of the other two COMBINED.

I voted for the best man. I voted with my conscience. I voted NADER.

[Phish_on]

would that be The Doors:
"The human race was dyin' out -
no one left to scream and shout ..."

or the Grateful Dead:
" ... don't lend your hand to raise no flag
atop no ship of fools"
? ? ? ?

Either way, eh? THANK GOODNESS I don't have to keep doing my great-grandfather's job (I don't even know what that was - something to do with TIMBER no doubt ) because I went to school and I know what "cognitive dissonance" means ! wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

I also fished on the Clackamas for about an hour yesterday, no fish hooked or seen ... water's sure starting to look right, though!

[Hoosier Daddy]

Phish_on": where did you hit the Clack? Boat or bank? Water looks even better today. Might have to sneak out of work early and try again.

chnookie:

I would appreciate it if in the future you didn't contaminate our posts with this.....FISHING stuff.

What do you think this is, a fishing discussion board?

[finclipped]

I find it interesting how often logging is described as "destruction". It can only mean you feel strongly about this subject which represents an opinion. An opinion is just like an ---hole, everyone's got one. It's not that I can't accept a different opinion, it's that no matter what I say, others find a contrary opinion must be uneducated, or self -serving.

No matter what anyone else claims is ignorance, self serving, or otherwise contrary to their own opinion I think logging will forever remain part of the NW heritage, economy and way of life. Its something I can accept.

Mistakes made in the past are blatant to us today and improvements made today will make a difference tomorrow. I don't buy the argument that cutting a tree is an act of "rapping" the land. To many, the destruction of logging is most evident to your relatives from Michigan who come to the West Coast for a summer visit. They can't see their own clear-cuts, because they have no mountains.

Don't misunderstand me, I strongly support streamside vegetation including buffer zones, responsible management (i.e. limited clear cuts), and preservation of Wilderness Areas. These wilderness areas hold vast amounts of "virgin" forest never to be developed. Note: Old growth is virgin, but virgin is not old growth.

I see destruction most blatant in the Portland area, where 80% of wetlands are filled in for homes and businesses. Forest are cut down to develop subdivisions with roads, sewers, lawns, which permanently "destroy" the landscape. The sewers over flow into our industrial polluted harbors, along with pesticides and oil from our cars. Then we harvest all the "excess" fish that fertilize the streams. We require a few to spawn to propagate the next small generation. This is what I see as destruction.

[kinaye]

NO, it's World Party:

"Save me, save me from tommorow,
I don't want to stay with this ship of fools"

Everything is fine. K

[Phish_on]

Cross Park / bank / tail-out on the Gladstone side / corkies & eggs --- there now you know one way to catch nothing. (Limited out on LEAVES!)

I've seen more fish caught on the O.C. side, but I picked the sunny & easy access ... several guys fishing the riffle on the O.C. side - no action seen. Several boats went through, the weather was very nice, Sunday cruisers, etc. No Ships of Fools

[Hoosier Daddy]

Hey Phish_on, get out of my SPOT!!!
One of my faves.

[Pilar]

Hey finclipped, thanx for checking in. And thank you for presuming to know what is on my mind. I too work for the timber industry in an indirect and no less indefensible way. That's where the cognitive dissonance comes in.

Since this keeps me up at night, I am looking for a more environmentally responsible line of work. The point I'm trying to make is evidently lost on you friend. You make choices every day that have an impact on your surroundings. I'm just asking you to quit justifying your irresponsible behavior and think about changing it. Even a little bit would help.

If it becomes unprofitable to have a natural resources based economy it will become unpalatable for the captains of industry to pursue the abuse of our natural world. Lets figure in the real cost of burning fossil fuel, Hydro, nuclear power or making cheap (really?) building materials. Does it still make sense to exploit (irreplaceable) natural resources for a profit and without concern for consequences?

Phish_on, it's the dead of course, thank you Jerry. Who are the dead and why do they keep following me?

The token fishing part of this post would be; go catch a sturgeon. You'll freeze your @$$ off but the bite is on and this is the prime time on the Columbia. My homeies are bagging a keeper or two on every trip and releasing many more. No, we don't give lessons.

Nader in 2004!, Vote your conscience.

The bend is your friend!

[This message has been edited by Pilar (edited 12-18-2000).]

[HOGTIDE]

Tower of Power:
Can't Stand to see the Slaughter
-but, still I eat the Meat
Can't stand Dishonest people
-but still sometimes I Cheat
Can't stand that air Pollution
-but still I drive a Car
Maybe thems the reasons why
-things is like they Are.

Personally, I like long hot showers(Dams), my new house and with a large country porch(N.W. Cedar)and heading for the coast with my mammoth SUV and sled (Fuel!!!) Its a part of the human conditon to say one thing is 'good' and do the other.

I also believe it is intended to be within man's domain to use all that he needs on this planet. It is a resource designed for our use. However, the word "needs" is a very important one. Perhaps more importantly is the word 'Stewardship'. With all that we have been given, we also have an ongoing obligation to care for our resources. There is a huge difference between the use and abuse of resources. If you find, in light of pragmatic evidence, that you are not harming the future of a resource, life quality or surrounding intertwined resources...use them...profit from them...enjoy their wealth; timber, fish,the sea, minerals, whatever.

However, if you know you are abusing a resource, taking action that is detrimental to the human conditon, today and putting it's future at risk, you have a personal, moral and ethical obligation to stop.

No one will ever convince you with their arguements, or their one-sided facts. They'll only give cause to build a bunker of tautological reasoning based on your own biased facts.

I will not tell a Guide to stop fishing or a logger to stop logging. The resource will speak loud and clear.

[finclipped]

Pilar:

You have my respect for considering leaving an industry you feel does more harm than good. I wish you luck in finding another line of business. Move to Hillsboro, there are lots of new hi-tech jobs(Water & Power intensive) and housing subdivisions(well... I had to say it).

I didn't completely understand what you were saying. I think I do now. Although making timber unprofitable is a little more complicated than quiting your job, you feel you must act on your conscience. I understand we should all try to reduce our impact.

I can't think of any action or chore, that does not in one way or another have a negative effect on our planet, but to be honest it doesn't keep me up at night.

I don't know if this would help, but I like to volunteer with salmon restoration enhancement projects. Two weeks ago I helped "seed" a local river with hatchery carcasses.

HOGTIDE: Well put.

[This message has been edited by finclipped (edited 12-18-2000).]

[Pilar]

Is anyone else out there experiencing a little cognitive dissonance? How passionate we are about whatever subject when our livelyhood is at stake. As TM said in one of his many posts in the latest environmental thread, (forgive the paraphrase) 'It's my job and has been the family job for 4 generations'.

Does this it make it right to destroy the land? I say take some video of your favorite green spot so you can show your children. Show this video as you apologize to them for allowing it to be destroyed so some unimaginative individual can have a job!

Oh and by the way, this is a fishing forum. That's why I come here. I really don't give a damn about someone justifying their natural resource based industrial job. If they need to justify it, thats all I need to know. They must have a problem with it. Let's go fishing before the Church of Greed screws up some more of the earth's sacred places.

When this Ship of Fools goes down with all hands, I plan to be out to sea, where the destroyed environment is not so painfully obvious.

Visit a clear cut today and ask yourself if it is worth it for anyone but Mr. Weyerhaeuser.

The bend is your friend!

'Pilar' out!

[Nuttinbutnet]

WEhen you go out to sea, will this be in a fossil fuel burning boat or are you going to row? Just thought i would ask!

[Hoosier Daddy]

Nice lyrics Hogtide, who is it??

[HOGTIDE]

The band was called "Tower of Power"...popular in the late '70s. My gosh I'm gettin old.

[Steve]

Once again we find our selves at odds who's right, who's wrong...Take a long hard Look at the Tillamook Forest formerly the Tillamook Burn....forests are not static they change...when the first white men and women came to Oregon Territory and settled they found the Native Americans setting fires in strange places and burning trees in large acreages....why for the berries that replaced the trees....for about 15,000 years..by estimates...no concern for salmon, steelhead, and other species..these attacks on TM show a narrow liner line of issue specific thinking, he cuts down trees as his father, and his fathers father. Personally I admire tradition . The clear cuts are not just cut and left to revegitate themselves, they are managed with the same science that that has been improved with each generation...first the waste logs are opened to the public to make firewood, next the units are burned in the fall, early spring they are planted as soon as the snow is off the ground 1 tree every 4' later the unit is thinned removing trees to 8' this whole time the area is being used as a food source for Deer, Elk, Bear, Spotted Owls, Redtailed hawks, mice, mountain beavers,slugs,piliated woodpeckers, Eagles,rabbits etc. the new growth provides thermal cover all the above, not found in open OG where the 120' canopy blocks out the sun to all but a few...I would guess that more than a few of you also hunt, well Blacktail Deer are in decline on the National
Forests not from over logging just the reverse as the number of clearcuts grow up and displace the food sources the deer are dying from starvation...So give TM credit for doing his job...so you can have boards to build your houses, wood barkdust for your yards, Toilet paper to wipe your ---'s,paper to read the news. Now get out there and be safe. Steve

[Phish_on]

It's just ...

We have cut down 95% (maybe 97%) of the forests that were here 200 years ago.

Is it so unreasonable to want to preserve what is left?

& I think you may underestimate the natives' regard for the fish in their approach to forest management. Remember there weren't 4 million of them ... and they didn't have trucks.

I have no objection to the forest products industry, I'm a native Oregonian for goodness sake. But no one has convinced me why it would be a Good Thing to wipe out old growth.