Grrrrr.... trailer brakes

[Bait O' Eggs]

Skein told me he recently had to replace most of his trailer brakes. I only ran the trailer last summer and it has pretty much sat all winter. After changing the oil in the lower unit on the motors today I decided to pop a tire off and see how much pad I had left.

First I take off the front tire and brakes to find I had no pad left. :depressed: Metal on metal for the most part. :depressed: :depressed: The outside pad had a pair of screws holding the pad on, the one screw is gone, wore clear thru



Then off with the rear tire and find not only is the pad gone, I have wore clear thru the steel backer and the cylinder face is wearing against the disc



I hadnt noticed till I got the tires off, they are massive worn on the inside and not at all on the outside. :tongue:

I hope I can get some brake parts quick this next week so I can get back on the road next weekend.

I am afraid to tear the other side off

Momma isnt gonna be happy when she sees the visa this month

[trollking]

Ouch, I'm in the middle of deciding to upgrade to a trailer with brakes. this sounds like exceptional wear. Any extenuating circumstances...really high miles, lots of salt with no rinse, ???

I'd appreciate any comments and suggestions here.

[Pete]

So, the question is whether the problem reflects a flaw, a defect or excessive use. Certainly one doesn't expect to destroy brakes in just one season. If theres something the rest of us can do or avoid doing, let us know.

[freespool]

Potter Webster would be my first call.




salmon hugger

[skein]

Well, since I'm the guy who just went through this, I must be the expert, eh? Mine lasted three seasons, but ended up looking a lot like yours. Hmmmmmm.

My calipers had the pad impregnated into the caliper, so I wasn't going to get away with just changing out pads. Now I can.

I will be more diligent about flushing them, although I felt I was doing a pretty good job before. Now I run down to the lake, which is 10 minutes from my house, and back the trailer into the water, pull it out, rinse and repeat. If I do it in the evening, I can also run both motors and get a good flush for them too. That's nice for the kicker since I don't have to remove the prop to attach the ears. But I digress....

I, too, replaced my tires because of excessive wear on the inside. Somewhere I ran across the statement that the hub was on too loose, letting the tire splay to the outside, leaving the inside to take all the weight. I notice with the new bearing repack I have one side that looks straight up and down, and one side that seems splayed out. I will tighten the axle nut slightly and see if that helps. I will also watch it like a hawk to make sure it's not so tight it's building heat.

I don't know if I can adjust the surge mechanism so that the brakes don't engage simply because I let off the gas. I want them to help me stop when I actually apply the brakes, and of course I don't want the dang thing to try to pass me every time I slow down, but somewhere there's got to be a workable medium.

That's all I know. Oh, except that my adventure cost me a boat buck. Your mileage may vary.

Skein

[crabbait]

So, youre saying I should probably look at mine...

[Bait O' Eggs]

I dont know what went wrong, if anything Pete

I talked to the King Trailer rep at the sportsman show, and he told me the brake pads wore quick, and the stainless disc were great for corrosion, but the rotors would wear bad. If they used a high carbon steel it wore better, but got all rusty, sorta a darned if you do, darned if you dont kinda thing on what to use for rotors in the salt water.

My rotors are pretty scracthed up, but they were like that after just a few trips.

I have not broke the brake lines loose, and hope I dont have to, because I dont know how I would bleed the brakes It would take more than a box of wheaties to work the surge by hand, and I cant imagine doing it with the truck while I bled the brakes at the bleeder valve

The one smaller side of the brake looks easy to replace, the other side with only one screw left appears to be adhered to the frame. I chipped away at the brake material left and got ahold of the ground down screw and got the screw out on one, but the pad doesnt come off, I think you have to buy the whole frame and brake pad as it looks to be "one" with some industrial adhesive, though on the "tie down engineering" webpage (manuf of brakes) it looks like the pads come seperate

I think my favorite part of playing a mechanic, is the total confusion and bloody knuckles

I will know more Monday when either 6 roblees or potter webster is open.

Edit - ya crabbait, you should probably get your whole system replaced, I doubt you have much left down there.

[Moldy45]

there should be a slot on top of the actuator that you insert a screw driver into and you pump it like a hydraulic jack.bleeding is easy if you have a extra hand at the bleeder vavle while you pump and add fluid.

PS just because my moniker scares you :grin:
no comment in return is necessary

[Orca]

That is pretty bad for one years use.

If anyone is planning an upgrade, check out the Kodiak Cadmium set. I am upgrading one axle now, and and reusing the good parts from a 6 year old set of regular painted Kodiaks for the other axle. Kodiaks use regular '80s Chevy brake pads, and they lasted me 4 years on a set of pads. Would have been longer if the brake lines had been set up correctly for disc brakes.

They now have cadmium and stainless sets. The stainless are very expensive, but the cadmium are reasonable. They have cadmium rotors, and calipers. The caliper piston, slides, and slide bolts are stainless. Rotors can be turned. These will last a long time. If I got 6+ years out of the painted ones, the cadmium should be good for 15 - 20 years.

[Orca]

The easy way to bleed is with a vacuum pump. Just pull the fluid from the front to the back one wheel at a time. All done in 1/2 hour from dry to full.

[ron m]

Thanks for the heads up on the trailer brakes. Well, I've got the newest trailer among us Edwing owners, at least I think Mike and I do. I guess I better check mine and soon. Since I first got the boat I've been rinsing my trailer and brakes after each launch and of course when I take the boat out of the water. It's a pain when we're anxious to get going in the mornings and guys gotta wait whilst I do it, but I'm hoping it has helped the brake situation. last fall I started keeping my boat in Newport in a storage unit, now it's just over a mile to the launch. That should help lots!!! This trailer brakes boat buck thing helps me rationalize keeping my boat there, it isn't cheap, but there are advantages. Lots less wear on the truck, boat trailer and on me since I don't have to pull it back and forth over the coast range. Also, I like being able to leave my fishing gear and whatever else in the boat.

ron m

[Moldy45]

You are correct ,but only if you have a vacuum bleeder :smile:

[tracker]

On the way to Neah Bay last week I had the feeling that my brakes were not doing all that they should be doing. Meaning the trailer brakes. I have been trying not to think about it and was not wanting to go out and check them. Thank you BOE for the post! It has spurred me to get out there and take a look. I have run my trailer nearly three years now and am not thinking I will be happy to see what is there!

[Bait O' Eggs]

I will have to look for the pump on the actuator since I dont think I have the attachment for my shop vac to bleed the brakes

Tracker, just because we cant see it doesnt mean we are not playing with danger not checking it. The big motor had good looking lower end fluid, but the kicker had a little milk look to the oil I will change it again soon and see if I have a leak or maybe try to figure out how the water got in the lower end of my kicker. (hoping a loose drain plug )

I am hoping the extra for the Amsoil 90 wt was worth it, I've never put synthetic in an outboard before, I am hoping for the best.

[tracker]

Since I read the posts last year about dunking the trailer in a lake I have been doing that this year on the way back from Neah Bay. There is a convienent ramp on Crescent lake! Sure raises the eyebrows on the people when they see me bring in my boat to that ramp!

So my question is, is there a easy access ramp into a fresh water source after leaving Depoe headed home. I could put her in at the Columbia somewhere I guess but was wondering if there was somewhere closer along my way.

[Puffin]

Roy Potter webster all parts from the backer plate out come as an assembly. Last time I did mine they were 40 bucks each

[tomictime]

I have a alu frame load rite that eats a boat buck every year. I have over the years converted it to Tie-Down SS discs w the uprated calipers. This Spring I needed the spindles resleeved..would never go w welded on spindles again. Also needed new calipers all around...$$$$$

I do tow about 3K a year inc some logging road.

JD

[Moldy45]

Tracker you can dip your trailer at D Lake in lincoln city

[Bob5292]

Tracker, I have backed the boat in for a quick rinse a few times at the lake on hwy 113, coming back from Neah Bay. I would rather use the ramp on Crescent Lake so I can run the motors for a bit. Is the ramp you use in the park, on the West end of the lake?

Thanks
Bob

[Bucolic buffalo]

I think part of the wear problem comes from driving on mountainous roads. I was told not to engine brake going down hill because it activates the surge brakes. Even when I just coast down from Santiam Pass and I maintain 55 mph by holding the speed steady with the throttle, the brakes drag enough to creat heat. I have a diesel Dodge and by locking up the torque converter by holding the throttle steady I can hold the speed steady all the way down to Suttle Lake. I use a laser thermometer to check wheel bearings and it indicates a lot of heat after driving downhill on most all hills. Just a thought.

[tracker]

Where is D Lake?

The ramp I use on Cresent Lake is at about the midway point! There is a big sign there stating boat Launch. It is a camp ground and so on.

Well because of BOE's post I got out there and took the right side tires off and checked the brakes. They are rusty but I have not gone into the rotors yet. Pad on the inside is down to paper thiness but still there. Outside pad at about 50 percent. Not sure what that means. So new pads and I will be good to go. That is pretty good since I have had the boat 2 1/2 years and trailer it just about as far as anyone. Just some quick figures and I think I have put about 12000 miles on the trailer. Not bad considering some of the stories here. I have a "Sport Boat Trailer". Now I have to find the pads? I hope they do not have to be ordered. Might want to make a run for our long finned friends next weekend!

[Moldy45]

If your comming down 101 from lincoln city you will see a lake right at or about the golf course look left,it's just behind town.If you take the left bye the outlet mall there is a ramp down that way that is not all that steep.you may get a real look at with that big boat haha

[Onokai]

Orca said(They now have cadmium and stainless sets. The stainless are very expensive, but the cadmium are reasonable. They have cadmium rotors, and calipers. The caliper piston, slides, and slide bolts are stainless. Rotors can be turned. These will last a long time. If I got 6+ years out of the pained ones, the cadmium should be good for 15 - 20 years. )
Tomorrow Im puting on the Kodiak stainless calipers with silver cadmium rotor's and brakets. From all my research-tie down is the low end on disc brakes. My tie down surge actuator lasted 2 seasons and less than 200 miles before blowing the master cylinder and that was on my small 18 foot trailer. Kodiacks cost much more but are better made for heavy loads like bigger boats.
As noted above pads are at chevy dealers for them.. My brake lines are from float on trailers from florida-they are high presure plastic-I'll take some photos of the job and post next week.
Jim where your brakes Tie downs?? My friend has them on his lite 17 arima and says they are just barly ok for a potato chip boat. Mark
Ps the cad rotors and stainless calipers is the best combo- or so I've heard. Mine came from Pacific trailers dot ___m. They made the trailer as well.

[smoltcatcher]

been in the tire business for 17years. a slightley bent axel can cause the tire and brake problems your having. so always check you trailer before you load the boat at a busy boat launch. mess ups do happen.

[tracker]

I think I know where you mean Moldy! I will raise some eyes next time I am there!

[WaterDog]

I usually hit d-lake as well on the way home. Those of us with big boats will have a hard time getting in there if there are many people at the ramp. With my last boat I had to jump the curb to get square to the ramp a couple of times.

You also have to deal with the usual lack of boat ramp commen sense as well. So be fore warned.

If you have a big rig take a look at it before you get down to the ramp and can't get out. Last weekend I just dragged the scow to the river the next morning.

Roy - sounds like fun. Too bad you can't get paid to work on your own boat.

[Paddler]

Unequal pad wear usually means your caliper is hanging up. This can also cause excessive wear. You should change your sliders when you change pads. If that doesn't do it, your calipers may be bad. Pads should wear evenly.

[tracker]

Thank you! I will take a look! Would be nice to have a lake so close but the rig is big and I am normally really tired then. Not a good combination. Big wide ramp at the river is better I guess but that is a couple of hours away!

[Something Good]

I thought we were supposed to wash boat and trailor then let air dry at least 5 days before taking them to another body of water? Environmental stuff you know.

[tracker]

salt to freah should not be a problem. Bad guys from the salt would not live in the freah!

[Chesapeake]

Ive got a question:

My first experience with tungue activated surge brakes was last week end pulling a boat. I hated them. They would activate anytime you slowed and release when you pulled and cause an anoying push pull effect on the tow rig.

So here is my question. Why do they use these brakes instead of the electric brakes they use on horse and utility trailers?

The brakes on my horse trailer can be adjusted in the cab for smooth operation in a given situation while towing down the road. They dont need a setting for backing up hill and they dont grab and release irradicaly, and they only activate when the brake pedal is pushed. And the drum brakes last a few years towing several horses up and down the hills.

[Walleyed]

Now tell me if I’m wrong but it seems that most places when putting together a package deal on a boat use a trailer that is just big enough. ( keeping cost to you down ) Pile on gear, gas and water, ice, sleeping bags, case of you favorite beverage, ,munches,, safety equipment, etc. ect.. And Just like that you are at the max, Or over. I wore out the inside of a set of tires form Portland to lower John day one holiday by using my boat as a camp trailer. Dose this have anything to do with your problems? I don’t know. But It’s a good reminder to me.

[skein]

Chespeake, my main worry with electric brakes is salt. Kinda like the guys who have to replace a starter every year - electrics are like a salt magnet. (I think)

Walleyed, you're right, our rigs were spec'd out with a barely adequate trailer setup. Most of us paid the extra money to get a heavier-duty model. We wanted plenty of leeway for ice, gas, and gear.

Skein

[Pilar]

Roy .. I'm no expert but I fix my own brakes. On the double axle trailer I use the problem is adjustment. They are drum type and not self adjusting. So every couple hundred miles or so I jack each tire off the ground and adjust. They are pretty loose .. it takes 3 or 4 clicks to get right again.


The wear you have reminds me of a rotor on the F-250. It had a bad caliper and was always dragging. Same thing, exactly. One pad (inside) was fried and the outside was worn. There was a chirping sound that I ignored for a long time. When I checked the other side it had hardly any wear at all.

Potter Webster will make this all better. New parts for each wheel are available as a kit and actually cheaper than trying to piece it out.

Waiting for fire on the wheel to check the trailer is a bad plan. Don't ask salty dog #1 how he knows this.

[kenai]

I went throught this exact scenario last year Roy. I had to replace one entire hub and caliper assembly and replace pads on the other 3. They looked exactly like yours when I disassembled them. Potter Webster has em, around 150.00
A couple of points were brought up, the uneven wear on the pad is caused by the slider on the pins hanging up, they will generate a lot of heat and the brake pad remain in contact with the disc even when you are not braking. This is probably why they wear out so fast. That, and we run these trailers over the coast range every time. I put never seize on the pins with the hope that the salt water dunking wont wash it off too quickly. If I remember these pins are mild steel and will corrode quick causing the backing plate to hang. The good news is, its pretty easy to replace the whole assembly. I bled the replaced assembly by opening the bleeder valve with a helper working the valve and removed the air out by hand pumping the master cylinder with the help of a C-clamp and vise grips. Give me a call.

[Orca]

Chesapeake,

Electric drums do work good on land, but being dipped in water, they just don't last.

You can by an electric controller that can actuate your hydraulic discs if you like ("electric over hydraulic"). They are $500 - $600 bucks, compared to $110 for a surge brake coupler.

[Orca]

For $150 / wheel, you may want to consider an upgrade 1 wheel at a time to Kodiaks if they will fit. My cadmium set was $250 / axle + a little more for bearings and seals. They have stainless caliper slides, stainless slide bolts, stainless piston, and I would guess 50% more pad area as the tie-down. Rotor is vented and turnable.

[tomictime]

!@#$#@!! You guys kill me..now, along with a badd tackle habit..I am thinking ahead to Kodiac brakes....

[Onokai]

I'm looking for suggestions on extending my leaf spring life (as far as rust). I'm putting on new 5 leafs and they seem to be painted with cold spry galvo paint. I'm thinking either soaking them in lite oil or coating in heavy grase or both before installing. The salt always blaow them apart over the years no matter how much one rinses. Any other ideas ti get more years out of them?? Mark

[Chromaflage]

I wonder if attaching zincs to the leaf springs would help at all? I don't know much about this stuff and am just learning, so I might be all wet on this one.

CrF

[Orca]

Corrosion X-HD makes claims to work well on boat trailer springs. Haven't used it though.

[edsr]

Ah Yes, trailer brakes, I remember well my flaming luau last year.

It would seem with all of the troubles we all have had or will have that there isn't some better way.

Any manufacturers out there listening?

There's money to be made here!!! Anybody?


edsr

[Bait O' Eggs]

I learned a few things today about my brakes.

Jacking this boat and trailer up and blocking it on a sloped driveway has a pucker factor all its own. Its a lot of weight to be putting in the air.



After tearing off all 4 tires, I have the same problem at each wheel. :depressed: I could only get one set of the calipers to retract with a 4 inch C clamp. :depressed: The other 3 tires have one or two of the calipers that are stuck out. I finally took my big 6 inch bench vise out and was able to retract them, though I think they may need replaced they are not going to travel well.

I can pull back the rubber boot and see white crusy stuff under the boot.

I removed one of the sets of calipers and found out the way the bleeder valves are set with the opening to the top, they fill with salt water each time I load/retrieve. That salt water evaporates over time and leaves white crusties growing in the bottom of the bleeder valves. All of my bleeder valves have the little pin holes in the bottom plugged. I drilled a couple of them out with a very small drill, but I think I will just get new ones with the parts I am about to get a 3rd mortgage for.

Everything is all cleaned up and ready to go back together once I get new pads, cylinders and what not.

I even see a wear spot on my flexible brake line where the rubber rubs against the trailer frame when the torsion spring flexes. Not bad enough to replace I dont think, but I will wrap it with some tape or something to take the wear, rather than the brake line.

Front tire on the other side is wearing funny. So front on one side and rear on the other side are wearing bad on the inside of the tire. Not sure how to adjust that, but will ask at Potter Webster tomorrow.

I see no mechanism to jack the fluid thru the system as described by Moldy

[Woody]

Get one of these Roy. I don't have this exact brand. I got mine at Napa. I bleed all of my brakes by myself. It couldn't be easier.

web page

[kenai]

I bled them by pumping on the entire tongue mechanism, just as your truck would and added fluid when necessary on the outstroke. It moves easier than you think it will, at least mine did.

[WaterDog]

Dang, I think I just got me a submission for "Redneck Yard of the Week".

[Onokai]

I put my boat in the marina (slip) so I would not have all that boat in the way of my trailer work..

Woody does that vac pump hook to each caliber and suck it from the master. I assume you work the one at a time with the hand pump?? I will get one in am if thats a yes. Mark

[Woody]

Yep, attach the hose from the vac pump, loosen the bleeder fitting and work the vac pump. It draws fluid from the master through the caliper or slave cylinder to a reservoir mounted on the pump. Make sure and check the level in the master cylinder reservoir often. When you get a clear, solid stream, close the fitting and move to the next wheel.

[Onokai]

Great there is a tool sale at Napa this week-just got a bearing packer-I'll get the kit. Mark

[Skipper]

When I bought a new surge brake actuator last year, I did not notice a load rating.

I'm afraid, we all are using "one size fits all".
Not sure that makes sense, since some trailers are heavy 8,000 lbs and others are only 3,000 lbs.

It would make better sense to have either an adjustable actuator for various load weights, or different sized actuators for different trailer loads.

Cheerio'
Skipper

[billfish]

Food for thought,
I put a switch in the cab of my truck that I can turn the back up lites on there by activating the back up lock out selnoid on the trailor and can us the compresion brake with out the trailer brakes coming on when decending a pass. Switch off and trailer brakes come on line.

[Bait O' Eggs]

Just an update.

I like to buy local given a chance, but Potter Webster and 6 roblees doesnt stock the parts 6 roblees had 2 brake pads only in stock.

I called King Trailer and they only sell thru authorized dealer, and they referred me to Staff Jennings, I called them, ....they stock no parts I needed but the nice guy said if I could get him the trailer serial number, he thought he could get me parts in a couple weeks My god, doesnt Rod tell anybody over there, the tuna are coming

I got online and found the parts back east in stock. I could order the whole kit including new calipers, and brake pads for $75 a wheel including 3 day freight. Should have them Thursday, and I could look at the picture and am 99.9% sure I am ordering the correct part.

I will be checking my pads more often in the future. :tongue:

If the forecast gets better I can run this weekend after a big brown truck shows up.

[tracker]

So I found the parts for my trailer today but at a bigger cost! The whole kit, hubs calipers bearings, so on. Anyway I learned a few things today I thought others might want to hear. I am not making a judgement or saying that what I am about to say is the gospel truth but it is what I was told by a trailer guy that had all the stuff I wanted in three different manufactures. He did not need to worry about selling only one kind of brake manufacturer.

Anyway first was that SS rotors are a no no on the west coast! Too thin and can warp very easily. Not one manufacturer recomends them for our hilly/mountainous driving. Midwest flat lands are fine.

Assited vacuum bleeding devices are not good! When I asked about them he took me in the back where they were in the very process of bleeding some brakes on a trailer. They were manually pumping the brakes up. They were using the emergency brake on the trailer to pump the brakes for bleeding. The guy said that the vacuum assit bleeders can harm the coupler. Also it does not do a good job of bleeding.

He did like Kodiak but stated that they are harder to find parts for. He showed me the difference in the coatings and I went with the Tie Downs. It was his choice and he convinced me to the same. Tie Downs are easier to find the parts for.

Ok so as I said I have no axe to grind here or something to sell. Just putting out there what I learned in a long day of picking the brains of several people at different places. Mostly what I got was "the brand that I carry is the best for you" from the salespeople. But this one guy was very good and spent a lot of time answering my questions and explaning his answers!

[Paddler]

Good info, Dave, and thanks for reporting back. Using the cable sounds like a good way to bleed them.

[tomictime]

tracker, only part I have YET to replace are the tie down SS discs.....I am sure I just jinxed myself...%^%$#@!

[tracker]

The other thing I forgot to mention was that you should try and have at least a half hour rest before putting the boat into the water. That way the brakes cool down and don't have as much tendency to warp.
The galvx brakes I got do have some ss parts like the "pusher cylinder" but also some aluminum. Even SS will rust after contact with the saltwater. I guess in a couple of years I will know the wisdom of my choice. Of course that is if I get it all back together in the first place.

[kenai]

Oh yeah, like I can wait a half hour Dave. Reminds me of when my parents wouldnt let me go in the lake after eating.

[Orca]

Tracker,

I know you are just repeating what you were told by a salesman , but I respectfully say that I believe the following to be accurate.

The Kodiak stainless rotors are huge (as are the cadmiun coated). Anyone calling stainless rotors thin (and I guess weak) has lumped all brands together. Some brands may indeed be thin, but not the Kodiaks.

Vacuum bleeding - very common procedure used by many. Only an issue that I know of on some ABS systems. Will check further to see if this is really a problem for anyone in the boating world. This is how I did my Expedition, VW Beetle, Dodge Ram-50, and boat trailer twice. All work fine, with no flame-outs or crashes to report yet.

Kodiak parts - pads are from Chevy, rotors are turnable, but would have to come from Kodiak if they can't be turned, all caliper parts, except caliper housing, are either standard hardware fittings or cross reference to standard automotive part #'s from your local parts store. The only thing you can't get in the Auto Parts store are stainless slides, bolts, and caliper pistons, but you could get the auto equivs. to get you going while you waited for parts from kodiak. But, these stainless parts are really never going to die before the whole caliper housing rusts away.

Everybody has their slant to all things - me too .

[tracker]

The Tie downs use a chevy pad. But as I said before, I really dont have a good source of reference other than what I saw and what was said to me. I would think that if the vacuum bleeding was so good why would a place that must do that several time a day use the manual method. ?

[Onokai]

I'm in complete agreement with Orca
I just installed kodiaks today. My friend has tie downs the rotors are super thin 1 piece affairs. The Kodiak are double walled and super thick and heavy.
The story i have heard is get the silver cad plated rotors not stainless. Get the calipers in stainless. These rotors are less problems and can be turned easy. Most parts are easy to get. I have a similar friend with a heavy boat with kodiaks for 3 years now and they are super. The only draw back is they cost more-but hey I hate working on trailers so the less frequent the better. My tie down surge activator blew the master cylinder in 1 trip to montery.- and that was my lite small boat (18 foot whaler) That made me post a few inquiries on some boards and found the above to be true. Your milage may vary. Orca has it right. The only thing I want to tie down is the loose stuff. Mark

Tracker some boat trailer master cylinder set ups like mine do not fit service station brake power bleeders- I tried a few years ago at two shops and had to do it manually as they could not fit the machine in the master due to the safety control brake lever that goes up against it .Mine is a Titan/dico Mo#6 and you can see that lever on page 34 in champion tailer parts 2006 catalog or onlineat championtrailers.com