Wild Steelhead Broodstock - Opinions Wanted

[Gone Fishin]

Since the introduction of hatchery Steelhead to our north coast streams were primarily of Alsea River stock, we have seen a decline in the quality of hatchery fish on our rivers.

They seem to enter the river in one big push lasting 2-3 weeks and are all about the same size and weight, almost genetic "clones" of one another.

It makes sense to me, to use the genetic makeup of the particular stream in which you are going to plant hatchery fish, it benefits in many ways; the fish come back stronger and healthier, the ones that spawn successfully in the wild won't be inferior and compete with the wild fish already present as their genetic makeup will be the same. You also see a greater return ratio therby giving us and hatchery managers more fish for the money invested.

This type of program has been tried with great success on local rivers such as the Siletz and Wilson and now we are getting ready to start a program on the Nestucca.

Unfortunatly, we have one person opposed to this program who happens to reside on the upper Nestucca. This person is making it very difficult to get this program going and has appealed to the Fish and Wildlife Commission to get this program stopped. It is also unfortunate that this one person knows how to work the system and it's very scary as to how much influence one person can have.

What I need from you is your thoughts and comments as to why you would be for or against such a project. I need your input and I'm hoping from a lot of you as I plan to forward this thread on to the commision as they consider this appeal.

Thanks for your input in advance! -Marty

[Mrdorkfish]

Marty.....How far up on the Nestucca are you talking about, I have always heard that hatchery steelhead were dumped no higher than the 4th bridge. Way...way back when they said you could only catch finclipped steelhead i stopped fishing fishing above the wayside at Farmer creek except for salmon....what does this person have to lose or gain by stopping the planting of hatchery steelhead on the Nestucca?

Mrdorkfish

[Gone Fishin]

MDF:

These fish will not be placed any higher than the 4th bridge as well. Once they are raised in the hatchery enviroment they become hatchery fish. They are only going to be used as hatchery fish. We are just trying to improve the genetics instead of using the fish that were "non-native" to the system.

A quick side note: The fish that we take for brood purpose will be "live-spawned" at the hatchery then released back to the river.

As far as what this person will lose or gain?
As I see it, if he is successful in getting
this program stopped, WE LOSE!

I really don't see where it will affect him one way or the other.

[Salmonator]

I've been plastering words of praise for the Siletz broodstock program all over these walls for some time now. There was one valid point mentioned as far as the broodstock fish interfering with the native summers spawning in the upper river although ODFW seems to have a handle on it. And since the Siletz has the only native run of summers on the coast what concern could anyone possibly have on the Nestucca? Didn't these native Winter Steelhead flourish in our coastal rivers at one time and wouldn't a broodstock program essentially fill the river with fish genetically identical to a native but with a fin clip or two? It sure seems simple but maybe i'm missing something. Joe

[SSPey]

Salmonator,

As you probably know, this is a pet topic of mine, which brings me out from the bottom of the hole to take the bait. Your question of "wouldn't a broodstock program essentially fill the river with fish genetically identical to a native but with a fin clip or two" is an interesting one. The answer, I believe, depends on how the hatchery phase of the broodstock program influences overall survivorship. Scenario: Broodstock smolts are produced, but the ones that survive the journey to sea and back reflect traits that were favored in the broodstock environment - such as an extreme, unnatural level of competitiveness with other fish of the same species. If a fish spends all it's energy trying to be top dog in a pen, then it spends energy less efficiently when eating or avoiding predation. So, these traits are selected for in hatcheries where food is abundant and predators are nill, and this happens all the time in hatcheries. The fish that survive best in the hatcheries possess these crummy qualities, these fish then return and pass these traits onto the next generation of "wild" fish when they interbreed with wild fish instream. It's no wonder that hatchery fish have consistently been shown to have a lower breeding success (% of eggs surviving) than wild fish - because the hatchery fish grew up in a concrete box instead of a real stream. Hatcheries try to compensate for this decreased survivorship by releasing more total numbers of smolts. Its a vicious cycle that floods the gene pool with bad traits that are normally selected against in natural environments.

Hatcheries remove the hand of natural selection and substitute the hand of man. Rarely, if ever, does this work in the long run.

We need to work hard to protect habitat, and to limit takes, in runs that are in need of help. Hatcheries (broodstock or by any other name) are flirting with disasters well demonstrated in the past.

[smilesforu]

Brood stock programs have been very sucessful producing quality fish when used on the peninsula streams. Our hatcheries have been moving more to this style of fishery. They will take only fish that come in during one week and separate them. Then do this the next week and the next spreading the run timing genetics. The largest fish are selected for during the process for spawning. The fish are also genetically tested so you don't inbreed with the same parents. The need for diversity in the hatcheries is what keeps them functioning properly.

Absolutely the best way to reintroduce or revitalize a stream in my opinion. I also think you should use brood boxes so the fish won't just go back to the hatchery. Spawn and place them back in the stream in different habitat.
Tight Lines

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Marty M
Steelheader.net

[Mike H]

Broodstock programs...... an excellent topic!

Let me play devil's advocate once again..... Before writing this, I asked myself, why do these broodstock programs exist? The way I see it, they are our (humans) attempt to mimic nature. We are trying to produce more genetically wild fish than would normally be produced. Right? If wild fish produced "enough" progeny, there would be no need for broodstock programs or hatcheries. We simply want more fish and have come to the conclusion that an genetically wild fish is better than a 7 pound Alsea River winter steelhead.

It is very difficult, if not impossible, to mimic nature. No matter how hard we try not to, we will be placing artificial pressures on these broodstock fish. Lets say we start off on the right foot and take a random sample of fish from different times of the run. One could assume that we have a pretty healthy sample. Well, ALL of these fish will be spawned to produce these broodstock young. STOP! Already we have placed an artificial pressure on these fish. What if some of the fish spawned would never have spawned in the wild. Maybe one hen couldn't dig a reed or a buck couldn't outcompete other males to spawn. These fish would not have spawned in the wild and natural selection would have taken care of their genes. With broodstock programs, man has stepped in and passed the genes along. Oops!

Other problems arise when, as smilesforu said, "The largest fish are selected for during the process for spawning." Hate to burst your bubble but this isn't healthy. Little fish spawn too! Sure, it's nice to have a bunch of big 'ol steelhead returning but that isn't what happens in nature.

These are just a few of the many examples of why broodstock programs are risky. I see broodstock programs as another "quick fix." Sure, I believe they are better (and I use that work cautiously) than the traditional hatchery programs but they will NEVER replace wild production. Instead of putting so much money and effort into broodstock programs, we should concentrate on "helping" wild fish. We need to focus on improving and protecting habitat. This will help in the long run.

These broodstock programs are still young and we have a lot to learn about them. Just think about what people's attitudes were when traditional hatcheries began production years ago.... There's more fish for us to harvest! Now we're shutting down hatcheries and starting these broodstock programs. Does anyone really know the implications will be? Let's not jump the gun.

Mike H

While we should do all we can to help bring back runs of true wild salmon and steelhead, I do believe the broodstock programs are a positive fishery enhancement project; when done properly. It's unfortunate that the hacheries weren't operated from the start to keep the gentics indigenis to a watershed pure as possible. At some point we are going to have to stop transfering fish between river systems, and the broodstock program is the best alternative until the native fish make a strong and sustainable comeback. - RT

[smilesforu]

I don't see brood stock programs as a quick fix. I see them as a helping hand. For the model fish hatchery practices pay attention to what the Quinault Indian Nation has done for steelhead. These fish are subject to nets and yet they still produce large numbers of quality fish to the systems, not the typical cookie cutter fish we see from the hatcheries. They not only get the small spawning fish that return but also get 20+lb hatchery fish on a regular basis. You just don't get big fish from little fish genetics. The big fish are the dominant fish on the redds...hence the logic of spawning the big ones.
Tight Lines


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Marty M
Steelheader.net

[Salmonator]

Are we sure that a naturally spawned fry that is the product of wild/broodstock interbreeding will "remember" that one of it's parents spent a few months in a concrete pen? Is it the same to say that a child will have a natural urge to play the violin due to the fact that his mom/dad was forced to play the violin for several months during their childhood? And as far as putting artificial pressure on fish that are potential non-spawners, wouldn't these fish not spawn upon their return to the river, eliminating any concern for interbreeding? I'm just as curious as the next guy as to how all this stuff works. All very interesting... Joe

[Mike H]

smilesforu - If we don't get big fish from little genetics, then we shouldn't get little fish from big genetics. Right? How come we have little fish returning?

You are correct in assuming that larger males are dominant on the reeds but these large males are competing to spawn with large females. The inverse is also true. Small males prefer to spawn with small females. That how we get the little fish.

If we are only spawning the large fish in these broodstock programs, we are leaving out an important part of the run.... the little guys! In my opinion, for a broodsock program to "work" we need to be using an representative sample of wild brood.

RT - You said that "the broodstock program is the best alternative until the native fish make a strong and sustainable comeback." Do you really think that the native fish can make a comeback if we are focusing on broodstock programs instead of what's important to native fish (haibitat)?

Mike H

[Osprey]

I am far from an expert on this topic,But doesn't the Solduc hatchery use only line caught fish for their program,it seams to me that targeting aggresive fish that strike and take lures and such would be a far superior fish to use in stocking programs,as far Brats go these fish are not the cookie cutter style we see on other rivers....my .02

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Row quietly and fish a Cataraft !!-------<'))>><
Release all Wild Fish

[dawhunt]

When my wife and I where fishing Nootka sound I met a man that was in the fishery program up there he was an engineer in the fishery for the canadian government,we got to talking about stocking hatchery fish and how they do it,they have fisherman go out and catch native fish and put them into some type of holding pipe or something,I don't remember exactly what he called it anyway they used those native fish for spawners at the hatchery BUT !!!! those spawened fish where put back in the same river there parent
fish were caught in (clipped) and ya'll(I'm from southern washington ) know how good there fishiery is.Seems to me that would work just as well down here.But I'm not college edacated nor am I a fish biolgist nor do I get paid by the government not to THINK !!!!.I just want to catch a couple fish every now and then I don't think thats asking to much.Might be my imagination but it seems like every time these smarter then us people get there hands on things they just get worse !!!
Bob Dawson

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Bob Dawson

[This message has been edited by dawhunt (edited 11-15-2000).]

[Gone Fishin]

One other point to make here people:

We are not trying to make a wild fish "comeback" or supplement the wild run with this program at all.

We are just trying to use better genitics in HATCHERY fish. Where hatchery fish are present, (and there is a need for these put and take hatchery fish) dosen't it make sense to use a product that comes from the same stream in the first place?

[Mike H]

I have a few questions about the details of these broodstock programs. What happens to the returning adult fish? Do they return to a hatchery facility? If so, what becomes of them? Are they spawned, whacked, or dumped back in the river to spawn? If they don’t return to a hatchery facility, are they expected to spawn in the river?

Gone Fishin – We may not be trying to supplement the wild run but, if we let these broodstock fish spawn in the wild, we are. If these fish return to the hatchery and are spawned, then the whole concept of wild genetics is lost. If we whack them as soon as they return to the hatchery, well…. we’ve all heard of the Fall Creek Hatchery incident .

[Tanner]

Marty,
I see this as an excellent opportunity to improve the quality of the hatchery fish on a river that I spend a lot of my time and (money on). I don't know much about the biology or genetics of fish, but I do know that the majority of the hatchery fish I have caught on the Nestucca are pretty pathetic compared to the natives that I have caught. I also know that the broodstock program so far has been a huge success on the Siletz River. I am all for doing anything I can to improve the quality of our natural resources (Yes, natural. Even though they are bred in hatcheries they are a NATURAL resource.)here in Oregon. I would definately be willing to spend my time, energy and money in doing anything I can to improve the quality of fishing for myself, my children and other sportsman.
I truly believe that people that have the attitude of the "one person" that is opposing this program. Tend to forget that a good percentage of money that fuels communities such as Hebo, Tillamook and others is generated by people like me who buy gas, bait, shuttle services, lodging, meals, etc in their communities.
Furthermore, I am having a hard time understanding why anyone would oppose a program like this that will do nothing but help both the natural resources and the economy in their area.
Thank you for your efforts in helping to make this work. Any help you may need, you have my e-mail here in my profile.

Tanner Kennedy

[Sand Shrimp]

I think the native broodstock program is an excellent idea.Personally I think there should be a program like this on every river.I've been telling my friends for years that they should use native broodstock from the same river for hatchery fish.From what I understand you have a higher percentage that return when using native broodstock.I am going to participate in the native broodstock program this winter on the Wilson river.There has been a lot of concern about hatchery steelhead interbreeding with native fish in recent years.Most hatchery winter steelhead return in Dec.and Jan. and are spawned out by the time the majority of natives come in Feb thru April.Anyone who does much fishing for nates can vouch for this.If people are concerned about the natives being taken out of the river for the broodstock program and not being allowed to spawn in the wild a very small percentage of the run are caught by fisherman anyway,so the native run should not be impacted.The natives are released back in the river after they are used in the program. I'm not a fisheries biologist or an expert on the subject but I just wanted to state my opinion.

[Amerman]

I think most people would agree that the best way to get all the native
fish to comeback, rebound and eventually make a full recovery would be
for us all to quit fishing altogether and remove all hatchery fish from
all streams. But, given the fact that we want to keep fishing and some
of us fisherman would like to be able to take a fish home for dinner
once in a while, we need to look at other alternatives. I believe one
of the best alternatives we have in front of us at this given time is
the hatchery broodstock programs. I was one of the people who tried as
hard as I could to get these programs going on our coast streams and
thought they were great. I first tried to get a Spring Chinook
broodstock program going on the Wilson in '87, but we were turned down
by the ODFW because they thought it would be easier to dump Trask
hatchery Spring Chinook into the Wilson. I have since been told by the
ODFW that the wish they would have let us do it.
I have since had many questions asked of me about the winter programs
and have had many discussions with the ODFW. These questions and
discussions have made me think are we doing the right thing. So I am
glad to see this discussion on the board and get more people input
(thanks Marty). IMHO the broodstock programs are better for our streams
than continuing to dump Alsea strain fish in them would be. I believe
that when you look at river like the Siletz that has removed other forms
of Hatchery fish and done a broodstock program, they have been very
sucessfull. Now that these programs have started, I have found out that
the ODFW wants to do these programs in conjuction with the Alsea strain
dumpings and not eventually replace them. It is still my hope that
these programs will become successful enough that we will eventually be
able to replace the Alsea strain of fish in these streams without the
loss of fishng opportunities that so many people want. So I think that
given the fact that we will have hatchery influnce in the these streams,
I believe that the Hatchery broodstock programs are our best
alternative.

Answering Question.
We are spawning all fish in these programs--not just the biggest fish.
All fish for these coast programs will be line caught by volunteers.

Concerns people have told to me as to why they are against this :
What effect will the added fishing pressure (people angling on returning fin clipped broodstock fish) have on the native fish. currently few people fish during native only times?
The ODFW is planning on mixing up to 70% of returning broodstock fish into future broodstocks. Meaning once we get a return from the broodstock those fish will be spawned with wild fish to make future broodstock ( using 70% returning Broodstock and 30% wild).

[Dances]

On the satsop they have had the broodstock program for a few years or more and I think it is doing great they always have a good turn out of steelheaders to help with the program and It give some guys chance to catch some bigger fish. Depending on where this guy lives the oly reason I could think of is he would not want any one going through his property to get to a fish tube

[Hookset]

First off, I'm in favor using native broodstock fish for hatchery programs. As already pointed out, the success with the Siletz native broodstock program should speak for itself along with the Washington state native broodstock program.

I'm in favor of the broodstock programs since I like to catch steelhead and have been doing so for over 25 years. I'll bet everyone on this board has benifited from hatchery fish and if it wasn't for hatchery fish, you'd probably not be a fisherman today. Think about the truths within yourself. Can you honestly say you'd limit hatcheries or worse, remove them to protect native fish? And do you honestly believe if all hatcheries are removed that native runs would come back to full strenght? Wouldn't happen!! The native fish would still struggle to survive, even more so today. The demand on resources....goods, products and services impact every part of our lives and the natural order of things. The only way I think native runs can really stage a strong comeback is we all move. That's right, leave and move somewhere else. And after the buildings, streets, parking lots and everyone leaves, then maybe....after a hundred years or so the runs may come back. Oh yah, we still a problem with the ocean. What a minute, what about global warming? Dang! Seems like everything we touch we mess up.

It'a all a matter of compromise folks......and always will be. Since we choose to live here and we want wood homes, electric power, dairy products, produce and don't forget those large Super Duties and Cummins trucks to pull those big boats around, we'll always impact the enviornment in some way. All those little pieces add up over time and we'll have to clean up what we can and live with the leftovers.

The native steelhead broodstock hatchery program is a good compromise. Anyone who enjoys fishing and would like to keep fishing
in the years to come, should openly support this program.

Now that I said this, there is just one more thing I should say.

From what I've read in the post above, it appears that many people think native fish spawn in the upper reaches of a river system. Granted, native fish will and do spawn towards the headwaters. But this is only part of the story. From my experience, a large majority of native fish actually spawn in the lower one third of the river beginning in March through April. These fish are not in the river very long and prefer to time their arrival close to the time they spawn. Kind of like dine and dash. I've witnessed first hand native fish spawning within the lower 4 miles on the Alsea river. This river is fairly long but many natives never travel far upstream and instead spawn very low on the river. From what I've read in the past, I believe the Wilson river shares this same characteristic and I'm sure other rivers as well.

Now I don't know how this fits into the equation, but hatchery fish have probably avoided conflicts with these native fish since they travel further upstream. If the broodstock program is going to succed, the release and rearing site should be far enough upstream not to impact the natural producing wild run.

Ok, think I said enough,

hook

[Penn]

OK, first of all, if the ODFW has any common sense, they will understand that the program has worked in places before and will continue it's use. But I have a question, If you take a wild fish from say the Wilson (just an example), raise it like any other hatchery fish but keep them seperate from other river stock, then let it comeback naturally with or without clipping a fin. If it were to spawn in the river naturally with other wild fish would it not be of the same gene pool and not an inferior fish and thus we have the start of rebuilding the wild run? Has anyone tried this or thought about it.

[Fishin Magician]

I am in favor of anything to enhance the returns of the native runs in our rivers and I think the broodstock program is a good start as well as streamside managment.I have a question to stir up the equation though, If we are trying to reestablish the natural runs,are we hurting them by removing them and spawning them to produce "broodstock hatchery" fish?? The natives that we remove and spawn would in all reality spawn naturally and produce true natives that we are trying to bring back.....??Are we robbing Peter to pay Paul?? I have asked myself that and what I think is this.... Why not leave them with all thier fins and concentrate on rebuilding the runs before we start clipping them.If the program is succesful we will see the runs increase (Hopefully)and at some point then initiate a program where a certain amount of fish are clipped and released for catching and retaining.I love catching Steelhead as much as anyone else, especially in March and April when the big boys come in.I love to catch them and release them with my thanks and respect for a great fight,They are a beautiful fish and would do anything to see many more of them in our rivers,So I welcome any comments and opinions on these ideas.I guess the whole summary of this post is save before making withdrawls on this resource.

Tight Lines-John

[Grant Scheele]

I have a question that has not come up. Are we not possibly hurting the naturally spawning natives by introducing a larger better fed hatchery reared fish? My point is that we are possibly further damaging the true native fingerlings by forcing them to compete with a larger fingerling that came out of the hatchery.

I understand the point of if we are going to use hatchery fish it may as well be of the same river genetics as the natives but lets not fool ourselves. We are not doing the natives any favors by, once again, making more competition for them.

Have the ODFW made allowances for this or are we flying blind once again? Do they understand the impact, if any, that these programs will have in this way? I am not trying to start an argument here as I have greatly apreciated the appartent success of the Siletz program but I sometimes wonder when we are going to work on the real problem which everyone knows is the environmental destruction that is still going on today.

I may be way off base here with my comments but I was just hoping that someone out there might be able to make me feel better.

[This message has been edited by O.Mykiss (edited 11-16-2000).]

[This message has been edited by O.Mykiss (edited 11-16-2000).]

[Grant Scheele]

RT, since you seem to know everything that's going on, do you have any thoughts or inside knowledge on this subject? Grant

Thanks Grant, but I only wish I knew everything that's going on. No inside info, but I have some opinions. I understand your concerns, especiallly since you've read Salmon Without Rivers (correct title?).

First and foremost is I agree with you and others that 'fixing' the environmental problems is paramount to achieving the kind of native fish comebacks we want. The problems with habitat degredation and polution are well known now, and many steps have been taken to improve things. The challenge is to rehabilitate it as best we can under the circumstances; mininmizing very negative affects on people in a balanced effort.

But there will have to be sacrifices made. I don't want to list them all here; it would take pages and not sit well with a lot of people? We know most of them anyway.

As for the broodstock program, I think if it's as well thought out and carried out as I've heard, it is a good program and a quantum leap better than former hatchery practices. Importantly, as mentioned, the genetics (at least as they now exist in particular watersheds) will be kept much better intact. Your concerns of competition with native fingerlings by released broodstock smolts is a legitimate one. However, I think the release timing is going to be such as to minimize this competition to a good degree. Native fingerlings will still fair well I think, especially with the new fish carcass distribution efforts that likely will become a mainstay program.

I have another idea for enriching stream nutrients for better juvenile fish survival, but it could open another can of worms concerning messing with ecosystems. It would involve a voluteer program of hiking around inland fields rich with insects and netting them in big amounts. Then drown them in water containers for dumping in rivers when native fingerlings are expected to hatch. We might look a little silly out there swinging fine mesh nets around? Volunteers? Other nutrient ideas?

As we faze out transplant stocking, I like John's idea of finclipping enough broodstock fish for harvest and letting a good percent go on to spawn naturally to enhance fish runs that will essentially be native fish with like genetics; with no negative cross breeding. I would further suggest seperately clipping the adipose broodstocks desired available for harvest and clipping one of the ventrals for the percent of broodstocks desired available for catch and release, like the naturally spawned nates. That way stream surveys can be done to moniter success of return numbers and spawning activity of the broodstock adults.

I would like to hear the opinions of area fish biologists (ISG?), and knowledgable program participants. Thanks.

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Know fish or no fish. - RT



[This message has been edited by RT (edited 11-17-2000).]