Lining fish inside the mouth.

[Ramstrong]

Well I didn't think that it was possible, but it is. I heard a canadian describing the way to do it, and it does work. During the afternoon lockjaw on eagle creek this weekend I was able to line 3 fish inside the mouth with the method that was described. All were released, but if this method got out, I could see a big blood bath ensuing. This appears to be totally within the bounds of the law, as unethical as it may be. Snagging in the regs is hooking or attempting to hook a fish other than in the mouth. So are the regs going to have to be re worded? and if so, how can you prove that the fish didn't bite?

[Bait O' Eggs]

Ramstrong
Lining or Flossing is real and do able, sorry to hear you got sucked into wanting a little pole action. The law enforcement boys like ticketing for this. You also can get a nice reward for turning people in for this. I know when calling the TIP program you can get between $500 and $1000 for a poached elk. I believe the fish violations are in the neiborhood of a couple hundred dollars. Their are a lot of variables that depend on the monetary amount of reward. Number of fish violated etc... It is even possible to do it anomously and nobody knows who you are, if you want.

You stated you "accidentally" lined them INSIDE of the mouth. Assuming the fish was facing upstream when you hooked it. Was it hooked in the far side or the close side of the mouth? From my experience, It is always in the far side of the mouth from the outside in. Hence an illegal hooked fish.

Getting the hook to miss the far lip as the line and hook is pulled thru, then set in the close lip from the inside just before the hook clears the fish is kind of "almost" impossible. Can be done on occasion, yet I would have to guess well over 95% of fish lined/flossed are hooked on the far side of the mouth from the outside in.

We all need to get over the negative conotations of ratting out somebody. If I can bust a snagger and get a couple hundred dollars out of the deal, It is a good day.

[TideWater]

Mastered the technique at blue creek. You can't prove anything. Hooked inside or outside it doesn't matter. They're all fair hooked.

Lined if it's on the outside-farside? I don't pin the cork, so the cork may have slid up 4 inches when fish hit. Therefore hook on ouside-farside thus fair hooked.

You never know.

[Ramstrong]

BOE,
I don't think you got what I was trying to post. I have known about lining from the outside in for a while. I was able to hook 3 fish on the INSIDE of the mouth. Not the outside, using a technique, if you would call it that, that I had heard about from a Canadian. you are correct that I also hooked the same # (3) on the outside of the mouth pointing in. The point I am trying to make is that this was one day's worth of attempting. I'm sure that if someone were to learn what the secret is (I'm sure not going to say) and with a little practice they could hook a higher percentage inside the mouth and it would be totally legal. These fish aren't trying to bite, but are being force fed so to speak. I only spent about 2 hours doing this, and I won't again. I just wanted to see if what I was told was correct and it was. So is there a way to enforce such a technique as snagging?

[C&R]

The only way to stop flossing/lineing is close the area where fish traditionally stack , especially in low water. Selective gear can't do it, except maybe flyfish with floating line and no weight attached to line leader, or fly.

What is the number for the TIP hotline? I have always wanted to include it in my tackle box!

------------------
LW

[Mike H]

C&R,

California's north coast has something called a low-flow closure on the streams. If the streams get below a certain cfs or stage, then fishing gets shut down. When the streams rise, you're allowed to fish again.

Maybe that would work up here during the fall, winter, and spring. Anyone think this would reduce snagging?

Mike H

BOE, you are correct. Thanks. Tidewater, you are incorrect. If you keep a fish hooked on the outside of the jaw you have kept an illegally snagged fish. And law enforcement afield are more aware and on the lookout to ticket this now! - RT

[SailCat]

Tidewater (above) may be correct, if unethical in his statement. The last I checked, Washington State fish are fair-hooked anywhere in the face (ahead of the gill plates). This would seem to invite lining by unprincipled anglers.

[Bait O' Eggs]

Not sure about Washington law but Oregon law reads as follows:

"Unlawful to take any game fish hooked other than in the mouth..."

[Ramstrong]

Mike, I think the low water closure may be a good idea. Maybe allow a stream like Eagle creek to be open the first 2 hours and last 2 hours of daylight, and close it during mid day when the fish aren't going to bite. RT and BOE I don't think are following quite what I'm saying still.
BOE, you stated "Getting the hook to miss the far lip as the line and hook is pulled thru, then set in the close lip from the inside just before the hook clears the fish is kind of "almost" impossible." This is not impossible, that is what I was exactly able to do 3 times on saturday. Using the technique that was told to me by a canadian. If he told me about the "great way to catch fish" who else has he told, and how long is it going to be until a bunch of yahoo's are up in Eagle creek lining the fish within the bounds of the law and there is nothing that can be done about it.

[TideWater]

Here is the Oregon rule:

"Unlawful to take any game fish hooked other than in the mouth..."

Now the fish has a hook barb in the inside it's mouth, but the leader knot and eye are on the outside. LEGAL because the fish has the hook in it's mouth.

Now the fish has the hook barb outside it's mouth with the leader knot and eye are in the inside it's mouth. NOT LEGAL because the hook point is outside it's mouth! hahaha

The above two ways are what I usually end up with when I slam home the 1/0 in a steelhead. Bait or no bait.

Lining/flossing can not be banned. I could line them with a 1 foot leader. Closure is what's needed if the fish need to be protected.

[HUNTER1]

JUST A THOUGHT, you go fishing in a river that pretty much exclusively has hatchery fish, the waters low and its almost impossible to get the fish to bite. Why not use your so called "flossing" technique. I have witnessed flossing and snaggers alike. You don't see flossers jerking as hard as they can every ten seconds, at least there is some skill involved in it. The other option is to let the ODFW club them to death and turn them into fertilizer, or worse yet spawn with the natives.

[Wet_Willy]

Hunter1,
Your "thought" is way off base. First of all you can't differentiate from the bank whether you are SNAGGING (I won't even use the term flossing) hatchery fish or natives, and many of the "hatchery" streams you talk about have both runs. Secondly, fisherman prove everyday that they can't regulate themselves to stay within the boundaries of the rules and are constantly looking for ways to circumvent them. Then we complain for how stupid some regulations are and how they don't make sense. My point is further supported by the fact that Ramstrong, who sounds (from other posts) to be of good moral character, can't resist to prove this Canadian's method works and snags 3 of his own (albeit released). Lesser character folks would have kept them, and bragged about it. The point is this, the more of this garbage that goes on, the less opportunities we will have to fish these rivers. If the fish aren't biting then get your A#@ out of bed early in the morning when they will. If they still don't bite, well that is why it is called fishing and not catching. Because this practice is so hard for officials to crack down on it will come down to the closures of rivers and less access for all. At this point, with so much of this garbage going on I can't say that I would disagree with that as the only sure way to end this. Until then, I'll have my cel phone and will report every one of you that I see doing it, whether it does any good or not!!!

[Ramstrong]

Willy,

I agree with your post, it wasn't really right of me to test this guys theory, but I couldn't believe that there was a way to snag fish and technically remain within the bounds of the law. What I did was not illegal under oregon law the way it is currently written. Snagging is hooking or attempting to hook a fish other than in the mouth. Though unethical, my experiment proves that it can be done. I'm not going to spread the how, and have already entrusted someone that knows a gamie with the technique so they can at least be aware of it. I was just throwing it out here on the web to see if there were any ideas to prevent this. Mike brought up a good idea, maybe close the river when it's at a certain flow during the mid day lock jaw. But I can see all kinds of enforcement issues rising from this, and you would also need a gage on Eagle Creek with easy public access to the current flow, so that idea may not be feasible, but there must be another way of preventing an onslaught of legal snagging.

[This message has been edited by Ramstrong (edited 10-04-2000).]

Hey Tidewater, your red angry face smilie indicates you are mad? At what? -- BTW, your weak argument on the letter of the law about where the hook point winds up is also wrong! To be hooked inside the mouth the origin of the hookpoint entry must be inside the mouth (which I think even you knew); which applies to the more appropriate Oregon law. - RT

[HOGTIDE]

I'm with Wet Willy. If a situation of snaggin potential exists...get your rear out of there 'sportsman'! Fishing is a sport of seduction, tempting you quarry. If you are agressively initiating the contact, flossing, lining, line bump tightening...you are NOT fishing. Be wise enough to ensure a 'quality' experience for yourself. Don't beat up on the fish.

[HUNTER1]

Willy,

Just a subject for discussions sake. I don't even fish in the areas that these practices take place much less partake in the action. I agree with you on the fact that fishermen cannot be counted on to regulate themselves, there's just to much tempatation. My big beef is the Gillnetters use conversations such as ours to justify themselves to get more of the catch. IE(hook and line is not an efficient method to harvest excess fish).
Like you said all one can do is try to report these incidents. I have called the game warden's many times and not once have they showed up. Very frustrating

[superfly]

You can argue this for days, If you got a warden sitting around trying to figure out if someone is lining or fishing legaly, then that is time that he is missing people actually( harrassing salmon ) by trying to snag them. Down in california on the sacramento river this technique is legal as well as many places in canada and alaska, as long as the fish is hooked in the mouth. The state would loose every case that went to court if an angler was cited for suppossedly lining a fish instead of getting it to bite. The judge would ask were the fish was hooked and the defendant would say in the mouth. then the judge would read the law and rule in favor of the defendant, in the meantime that gammie is off of the water or on overtime costing us tax payers money. Lets worry about the guys chucking buzz bombs with 5/0 trebels, because there is allot more of them out there ruining our fishing and our reputation. Anyone who has spent any time on the water has lined a fish, you may just not have realized it. There is definatley a technique to it, and after fishing sockeye in canada, I think it is actually easier and definatley less nerve racking to find something that they will bite rather than try ing to floss them.
Peace superfly

Just a question for any guys that have gotten profient at floss hooking fish: Have you then ever gone and bragged to others how many fish you hooked, or landed, after having done this and conveniently not mentioned how you got them to "bite"? Ooooo, that would be pathetic!

[HUNTER1]

I AGREE WITH SUPERFLY, WE COULD ARGUE THIS FOR DAYS WITH NO REAL POINT. OUR EFFORTS WOULD BE BETTER SPENT FIGURING OUT HOW TO GET THE NETS OUT, OR BUSTING THE BLATANT SNAGGERS.

[Wet_Willy]

The "real snaggers" are only "real" because they haven't learned to do this. It is all semantics. If you practice this technique knowingly then you are just as real a snagger as the bonehead throwing buzzbombs over their backs. There is no argument in that only acceptance or denial...The sport and the fish deserve better than that.

[C&R]

Superfly,

I'll disagree first you must assume that those who are flossing would lose more monry taking the day off to go to court to fight the ticket.

Second just because it is difficult to prove doesn't mean we should look the otherway. Liners and traditional snaggers hang out in the same areas some are just smarter snaggers. I used to fish the Kalama for silvers which I stopped doing because of snaggers yes I reported this action multiple times with no enforcement showing. I fly fish and believe the dragging and slow twitching does nothing but line and must people don't realize what they are doing.

[TideWater]

Here is the Oregon rule:
"Unlawful to take any game fish hooked other than in the mouth..."

Here is RT's interpretation:
To be hooked inside the mouth the origin of the hookpoint entry must be inside the mouth.

Come on RT. Your making things up. The other night I hooked a silver on a thin bladed spoon with a single hook. The fish hit the spoon as it was going perpendicular from the current. It got the spoon in its mouth, but the hook hit the outside of the mouth and stuck into the mouth (from the outside). Do you call this an illegal fish?

The red face came from the opinions I have read thus far.

[TideWater]

Here is another one RT.

I believe many times trolling herring will result in the hook penetrating from the outside the mouth in. I hope you release all these fish. I don't.

[Son of an Okie]

I just looked up the regulations for both OR and WA on the WEB and was suprised to find that the WA rules regarding snagging are tougher than the OR rules.

The OR definition of snagging is "Hooking or attempting to hook fish other than in the mouth" with the rule stating it is "Unlawful to snag any game fish".

WA definition of snagging is "Attempting to take fish with a hook and line in such a way that the fish does not voluntarily take the hook(s) in its mouth" with the rule stating you "May not snag or attempt to snag fish".

From my perspective, I'd like to see the WA definition and rule written into the OR book. Unfortunately, strict interpretation of the Oregon rule would probably result in all charges being dropped if the fish was lined inside the mouth. Washington would be different if it could be shown that the fish did not "voluntarily" take the hook.

Regardless, it's still wrong from an ethical standpoint IMHO.

[HOGTIDE]

Tidewater,
It becomes immediatly evident within your first posting that you know you are engaging in unethical conduct. You stated,"You can't prove anything"your own insinuation being that there IS something to prove. Truth is...no one will ever catch you or convict you using this unethical 'grey area' fishing strategy. You simply have made a decision to operate within the lower levels of strata, conduct-wise. The philosophy is "If I am not caught...I'm not guilty". Truth is(part 2)... your methods will never have any significant impact on any sport fishery. The bad part is, you are stuck fishing with yourself.

[TideWater]

My point is you never know if the fish was lined or not. I'll have to start interrogating these fish.

[Ramstrong]

Well Last night I had the privelage of fishing along side a plain clothes OSP Warden, and I spoke with him about this topic, and it appears that though unethical, it is legal and he wouldn't be able to cite people because it adheres to the letter of the law. That is unfortunate. It was funny because talking with the wardens brother in law, just befor I got there these guys came down that had probablly 3/0 or 4/0 hooks and huge corkies with the weight about 8" above the hook. The warden's brother in law kindly stated that the rig was illegal and that the weight has to be 18" from the hook, and that it could be percieved as a snagging rig. The guys told the wardens brother in law to F off and mind his own business then decorated a couple of fish in the hole with hooks and proceeded down stream. I bet they got a nice surprise that evening when they walked out. Suckers.

[Mrdorkfish]

Can't you catch a fish the normal way? With the hook inside the mouth of the fish. Flossing is no "technique"......It sounds like a way for an unskilled fisherman to hook up. I'm gonna wait for the rains so I can fish a river the right way.

Ram and Tide there books and people out there that can show you the correct way to fish.

Mr.D

[Ramstrong]

Mr D,
I have no problem putting fish on the bank the normal way. And in no way am I condoning lining. I am just stating that in my talk with a warden yesterday that even though it is Unethical, that if done inside the mouth it is not illegal. Also, Eagle creek is carrying about twice the water as it was before the last rain and the fish are on the move. If you follow my previous advice and hit it bright and early you don't have to wait to put fish on the bank. Evening bit is sub parr, I was only able to catch 1 fish last night and it was a darkie. Everyone and their dog is on Eagle Creek now though so you are going to be doing some hiking to get into a unpressured spot, but you can do it.

[parker]

This thread got me curious about the regulations in Washington, so I called up WDFW and had a nice chat with my local enforcement officer.

We already know that in WA, snagging is defined as:

"Attempting to hook a fish with a hook and line in such a way that the fish does not voluntarily take the hook(s) in its mouth."

Looking at the regulations for Selective Gear Rules, we see:

"If any fish has swalled the hook or is hooked in the gill, eye, or tongue, it should be kept *if* legal to do so."

There is no WA regulation out there that says you can keep a fish if you snagged it in the face (gill plate forward). The simple fact that you were SNAGGING/LINING/FLOSSING makes it an illegal fish, regardless of where you hooked it.

The end result of the conversation was that I was told (to tell you) to report all violators to the State Patrol and an officer will be dispatched to the scene.

Parker

Parker, thanks for the info. I hope what they told you about "an officer will be dispatched to the scene" is more correct than some posts about them not showing up seems to indicate; in some areas anyway. --- TW, ya I made that up about having the hook point entry origin inside the mouth for it to be considered hooked inside the mouth so you could picture what the law means. I know how confusing that can be for d#(&#@)ts . Did you make up that law about it being legal to keep a fish hooked outside the mouth on it's face as long as the hookpoint goes in far enough to poke into the mouth cavity?? - RT

[Snakebite]

From my experiences on the upper Rogue river, there are those who aren't savvy enought to get a fish to bite their presentation. So they have resorted to lining fish. The rate of success is low when the fish is hooked legally. The point of the matter is that these unscroupulous anglers will still keep anything they hook near the mouth even to the point of doing so when ODFW or OSP officers are standing right next to them. The practice is reprehenisible at best. If you want a fish so bad, go to Fred meyer and buy one. Stay off the river, and quit ruining the experience for real sportsmen! Sheesh!