Bottom fishing, Halibut CLOSED

[OceanBlue]

More closures are coming. Vast, blanket closures.

Not Marine Parks or Sanctuaries.

Closures because of ONE fish.

Unless you help, your playground will be closed to bottom fishing outside of 20 fathoms... and when the black rockfish cap is reached, it will be closed for bottom fishing - period. That's right - NO HALIBUT Not at the rockpile, not at the ranch, no nearshore halibut.

I'll spare you the gory details, but the bottom line is we need to help ODFW determine where these dang Yelloweye Rockfish (and Canary RF) are being caught. The cap on those is dropping year on year over the next few years. We got lucky last year, "borrowed" some fish from our neighboring states and kept on fishing for halibut. We went way over the optimum yield for yelloweye in doing so. We won't be allowed that again.

Oregon Coalition for Educating ANglers is assisting ODFW by gathering waypoints where yelloweye and canary rockfish have been caught. By helping them plot the areas where these fish are, we can help them target areas to close.

I know that sounds odd... help them close areas of the ocean... but personally, I'd prefer small areas to be closed rather than everything outside of 20 fathoms. Besides, wouldn't you prefer to know what areas to avoid instead of having to pull up and move AFTER you catch the wrong fish?

Please post or send waypoints to me at jjohnston@oceaned.org. Please include as much info as possible including species (YE or Canary) and any other specifics you might recall about size of fish, etc.

Please don't turn this thread into a huge, heated debate about whether you agree with this or not. Arguing over whether closures should happen or not, whether to share info or not, or whether these fish are abundant or not won't change what will happen if we don't take action and seriously reduce our bycatch of yelloweye.

Thank you for your consideration.

P.S. The charter fleet is helping with this, too, but frankly most of the bycatch is coming from private boats.

[skein]

Yep, will do. I've got some waypoints marked that I will not fish anymore because of the numbers of YE that are there. They are in my GPS and on my charts. I'll get them and send them to you.

Thanks for all your efforts (The Ocean group) to pull this info together.

Skein

[Pilar]

We who fish the ocean and have done so for a time are painfully aware of the restrictions. This may be less obvious to the recent converts. You all know the story. There are some species of fish which have been identified as 'in trouble'. We may not agree with the science or the data or the fail-safe restrictions. But we can all agree that rockfish and certain species in particular have been overfished. By who does not matter now. All that matters is that the attention is focused on Yellow-eye, Canary, Widow and others. Attention that can close fishing seasons, restrict other types of fishing and make traditional fishing areas into Rockfish Conservation Areas. Are you with me so far??

In the past I have observed various reactions from friends and fellow fishers to the restrictions, lowered bag limits and other changes. Some believe that don't ask, don't tell is best. Don't ask me about the orange fish and I wont tell you how many floated away from behind my boat. Some people could not correctly ID the orange fish and may be mis-reporting encounters to the fish checkers. And some don't think there is a problem (d-nile a river in Africa) and fish as they always have, where they always have. I think we need to come to some kind of agreement about a few things. By doing so we may remain in the drivers seat and not be victimized by widespread closures and restrictions. I will explain what that agreement is and why I think it.

We must avoid rockfish that are restricted, report the coordinates where fish are concentrated and educate ourselves in the correct species ID of these fish. My opinion but let me explain. The problem is many faceted but there are a few points that stand out.

1) Fish can be released at depth and the means for doing this are inexpensive and pretty easy to use. Some fish released at depth survive. The regulators do not recognize any survival of released fish so all reported encounters are counted as fatal. We should release them anyway. The experts will continue to research release methods and they may become accepted. This is our first problem. Report an encounter and the quota gets one more fish stacked on it.

2) Abundance info is based on commercial and sport catch data. The quota is based on the population estimates. The major problem fish are 'No Take' now. Where does the data come from? Simply put there is not enough information to accurately count the population or the trend in population. We can fix this and OCEAN is trying to put together some ways to do this.

3) Fisherman widely believe that fish are more abundant than the scientists can prove. This is because we encounter the fish on the water and they seem to be pretty abundant. Not reported though because of 'don't ask, don't tell'.

That's the background. Here's how you can help. Report to the OCEAN organization your Yellow-eye and Canary waypoints and info you have about when and what you encountered. The means to do this will be made available on the OCEAN website. Avoid these areas while fishing to reduce the accidental catch of these fish. Stay tuned for opportunities to do field work and assist researchers on population counting. Tell everyone you meet about the problem and try to get them on board. Get a laminated fish ID card and use it while fishing.

What is on the horizon friends is not good for our free-wheeling ways on the ocean. Restrictions are being considered that will close many of your favorite spots. I would rather see some very specific areas closed rather than huge areas. The difference is knowing where the fish are caught. You can make the difference ... think about it. I already have and look forward to helping the folks that manage our fishery in any way I can.

[Threemuch]

I was at the same meeting as Jen last night. She speaks the truth, unless we come up with a way to stay off these yelloweye, we can say goodbye to any kind of bottomfishing (and Halibut is the one you should be concerned with, here)outside of 20 fathoms.

ODFW really wants us to be able to fish halibut, but the only way is to keep away from those yelloweye. It may mean giving up some spots, but unless we do, we will lose this fishery.

PAY ATTENTION HERE FOLKS- If we don't do something to stop catching yelloweye, we will lose deep water halibut fishing

[wak'm&stak'm]

How would you like some waypoints to areas with high numbers of yelloweyes that they don't even know are there or maybe they do.
The pinacles and canyons surrounding Nelson Is....are prime YE habitat, with healthy numbers, but that information would make them look foolish won't it.
The commercial fishermans longline data showed healthy and increasing numbers of YE, which they chose not to include in this years decisions......real truth seekers aren't they?
We never caught one YE last year, it can be done. Yet the waters that they threaten to close is the same water we fished with zero effect on YE. Makes lots of sense.

Remember their data collecting is as incompitant as the Feds knowledge of fish stocks. So please report the correct species at the dock. The cards are great by the way Jen.

I understand this crap....but i don't think our goverment is capable of managing 3 goats shackled in a stable. Just my opinion...

Once about 3 years ago in an article about ..."how did this happen". the NMFadmitted it was because they failed to manage YE, years before. Today we are to assume they know what they are talking about.....ARG!

[Pilar]

Hey, Wak. I don't want the waypoints. But I think the ODFW would like them. OCEAN will collect the points and map them and pass this on to ODFW. Lets close the areas where the YE are caught, not all the areas we like to fish.

Three goats shackled in a stable ...

.

[OceanBlue]

Hey Wak, I knew that post would boil your blood :grin:

But seriously, you raise good points. They do know where some are. But short of closing the entire stonewall banks, or all of Nelson's, they need more specific info. The closure of the high relief area last year did help some, but didn't get us where we need to be.

Closures are one method of handling this.

Gear restrictions are another - but they don't have enough info/science on that yet (studies are being conducted now).

The other reason for reporting the waypoints is so that we can share with other sportfishers who may be trying a new spot for the first time and be unaware that it is full of "bad fish". For this season, that's about all we can hope for because they can't change the boundaries of the closure area on the rockpile for '06. Believe you me, they're looking at it for '07 and beyond... Let's help them get it right.

I'm looking forward to your numbers Wak Thanks man!

[wak'm&stak'm]

I don't understand cap limits decreasing as the overall stock increases.

I understand what your saying, and I have no problems really with the Rock Pile closure, other than it was more regulation on top of so much regulation that it makes the average Joe is afraid to enter into ocean fishing.
Enough , enough with the freak'n rules.

What bothers me, is no one will go fish those areas for halibut. Years ago when we could catch all the YE we wanted, we would fish them when conditions allowed.
There was also a few i know who Jug fished commercially in these areas. They would find schools, and drop a line bellow a bouy with 20 plus hooks. ( it was kinda cool. when they all filled with air and came up) sometimes right around the prop, if you didn't pull away. oops side tracked.

Today those fish are still there, not in troll nets, and not under halibut boats....these numbers will not get reported because no one is fishing there.
Do they need a sanctuary....I think NO...because no one is fishing them anyway....But is some circles it would probably make some one happy to say..." look what we did".

I have offered countless times to take the powers to be YE fishing, and when they sit out there arms aching because of endless reeling in of YE's and not being able to see another boat for 15 miles....maybe they will realize, the ocean is a big place and their limited data isn't worth a damn thing.

If this is what we need to do...then I will be happy to help. But the areas that will get closed are NOT the key YE areas, they are halibut areas with somne YE's.
Just as their 40 fathom curve nonsense.

[wak'm&stak'm]

I am sorry about the poor detail, I just don't know how to do it without taking a picture of the computer screen.
The BIG white circles are YE habitat that is outside their data area. Pretty impressive isn't it.
The top pink area is Nelson Isl. ...no one fishes halibut there because of the YE numbers, can't keep bait on.
Just off the edge is rocks and YE's that draggers and no one touches. AND NOT COUNTED....ARG!
The lower pink area is the chicken ranch, what will they do close areas of it because we caught YE's there, or be logical and look at the areas YE live that we do not fish.?
the flat areas circled next to Nelson Isl. are drag areas, that are targeted for dover, petrale and some other fish. Yes they caught YE.
The canyon below Nelson Isl....is big midwater areas for hake and such...and yes they drug up surprised nets full of YE that were off the bottom. As other reports showed...I know of 2 such catches over 10,000 pounds that were dumped.
That boat is in Alaska now and just does hake down here.

That litte red circle looks interesting doesn't it.

I still think the number one priority should be accurate data....and they don't have it. Till then we will keep getting kicked in the twins and for what reason?
.

[slowbuilder2005]

It kinda torques me since we've been complaining loud and clear since the 1970s (!!!) that the groundfish were being mismanaged... how come the recreational fisherment who don't do this for a living always seem to be more in tune that the state and fed chumps? How long does it take to catch on? I need a job like that...

Brian

[Orca]

????

Please don't turn this thread into a huge, heated debate about whether you agree with this or not. Arguing over whether closures should happen or not, whether to share info or not, or whether these fish are abundant or not won't change what will happen if we don't take action and seriously reduce our bycatch of yelloweye.

????

[Pilar]

Wak, I'm no expert here but I have a question. How can we count the fish without exploding them? They can't use trawl data anymore.

How do we count them?

[skein]

Pilar,

Let me turn the question around. How do we close off the ocean WITHOUT counting them?

Won't the same economic disaster argument that we used to keep salmon open apply here? Bet it will if there's enough squeek in the wheel.

'Dogs, don't take this one lying down! Visibly do what you can to NOT TARGET areas where there are Yelloweye, but don't let them take your ocean away from you just because they THINK they should (or can).

Skein

[Nordic Sun]

Someone help me out here!

I thought we well on our way to release techniques that would allow us to keep fishing. Did all that research fail?

I must have missed it.
Bob

[Pilar]

Wish I had answers Skein. I can't stop thinking about the long life span and slow restocking rate.

If we could prove error in calculating abundance maybe some of the pressure to close it down would subside. Maybe we could close the areas that really matter to the fish as nurseries instead of just closing everything. We must reduce the take or it is out of our hands.

Who has the answers?

[slowbuilder2005]

I had a friend that worked with the State to catch native fish in various rivers around here, catch and release, to take data on what native species were located where.

Several people here have indicated that they know where concentrations of protected species are, and I'm sure that's true up and down the coast. Can't they figure out from available data coming from recreational and commercial fishermen what specific AREAS need to be protected? I mean, without working with the State, they've basically come up with the same type of data in the same way that the State does in order to make these decisions, right? The State should send mail to all the license holders (commercial and recreational) with questions concerning GPS coords v. catch rates of protected species. Why not? I'd rather see tax dollars spent on that kind of research than see commercial and recreational dollars lost because they didn't... Short of taking a submarine down there and doing an impossibly large research study, what else can you do?

Brian

[Hillbilly]

So if we catch the yelloweye they are recorded as fatalities and are counted against the already accepted low populations which provides further reasons to close the seasons.

If we don't report catches of Yelloweye then it is accepted that yelloweye populations are so low that Sportfishers can't even catch them?

Where can we win with this logic?

[Threemuch]

I thought we well on our way to release techniques that would allow us to keep fishing. Did all that research fail?

I don't think we will be getting any credit for released YE in more than 20 fathoms any time soon. Most of the research isn't pointing that way. It doesn't mean that releasing fish at depth is a bad idea, it isn't. We should all release YE and other rockfish caught halibut fishing at depth. But I don't think that will do anything to help us out with the YE constraint on our deep water bottom fishing.

[wak'm&stak'm]

Pilar...I don't have any answers to this counting problem. I think is is reasonable to say it is impossible. I think some funding for YE exploring should be the least they can do. The dragger buyout took a lot of data collecting devices out of service.
When they drug their little camera around on the south side of Hecta Banks they found drag marks and destruction from draggers. No surprise there, they have drug a hundred nets over the same rock....BUT....go to other areas and they are as virgin as the back side of the moon.
This is what bothers me so much....I could go take a few chosen photos of anything and make it look bad.

I would still like to see more of the longline data from last year. Since the longliner have gear in rocky areas that the draggers don't touch, you get differant data.
I heard these numbers have been showing a steady increase in mature YE numbers, that contridicts what they based their cap numbers on.
If this is true, ..NOT using all available data is just wrong.

[coconutdan]

Bottom of this page has some charts that might help you guys with the canarys.



http://www.nwr.noaa.gov/Groundfish-Halib...ement/Index.cfm

[Salty Walty]

I got this from RFA Janice. The YE are still counted by NMFS in their trawl Surveys.
I too was part of the meeting and will only re iterate what has been said by others. If you have a spot where you catch Yellow Eyes. Please send the data to OCEAN and don't fish there any more. This is a no jokes about it matter. By failing to avoid these areas and fish we will be risking the closures that Ocean Blue spoke of. There will be some gear studies and more research on Barotrauma but the lack of any fish to do this research with hampers these studies.

[Jimmy Carl Black]

It sounded to me like they wanted reports of where fishermen are finding the highest concentrations of YE. The only way they can count for a population extimate is through tagging (mark and recapture). The survey/creel data is not really scientific. Are they going to use our reports to do a new tagging project? Have they ever done a tagging project?

This is very frustrating. I've been out fishing for halibut and lings and caught alot of orange fish that I knew were not protected (vermillon?)and everyone on board tells me to throw it. I guess this is because even the checkers don't know how to id right. That's too bad because it is an easy id. I wonder if the people doing the 'counting' even know which fish is which. Unfortunately, we are too small of a lobby or we don't have enough connections to make things happen. I don't see any other option than to give them all the data you can and keep trying to influence the right decision.

[wak'm&stak'm]

Walter....."we already do avoid these areas"..

When will they get it thru their thick skulls that when they put the cubbosh to bottom fishing that we pulled away from the YE hotspots. I really don't think they have a clue what has or is happening. They just have to power, but lack local YE knowledge.
The only way to avoid YE, 100% is not to fish, and I think that is not to damn far away. I am getting real tired of this crap.
As long as they can keep this nonsense going they have a job that looks important, GRrrrrrrr......



I have a great idea, since they choke us with incorrect data, lets just give them some more incorrect data.
THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT WE CATCH UNLESS WE TELL THEM, SO DON'T TELL THEM. iF YOU DO GIVE NUMBERS, HOW ABOUT SOME UP BY TOLEDO, OR BONNIVILLE.

Why are these numbers going to OCEAN and not a fisheries office?? Is this really a fisheries project or a proactive OCEAN project?...something smells fishie here.

[kamloops]

"As long as they keep this nonsense going they have a job that looks important" bingo
Or, A job for LIFE.

[OceanBlue]

Dan, Dan, Dan... Let's think about this... If sport fishers are avoiding areas where yelloweye rockfish live, then where did the >4 metric tons of bycatch come from last year?

All from sportfishers. Most from private boats. And most from Newport.

Why is OCEAN asking for data? Simple. We have the resources to turn this project quickly. It's informal data and likely ODFW can't do anything official with it... what OCEAN can do is publish the info for other sportfishers. If ODFW were to launch a project like this, we'd see it happen sometime in '08 - after they got the budget approved, resources assigned, figured out what software to buy, assigned more resources, fought to keep the budget and after endless meetings to determine what data they wanted and how to model it.

OCEAN is lean and mean and we can do it now - for free.

And hey, if you don't fish there anyway, what's the problem with giving up the numbers?

[wak'm&stak'm]

If I still had them, but that was back in the Loran days. I could go blind folded and find them again.

Good question.."where did they get their numbers". Their record keeping sucks and I can prove it. Last year I was checked for halibut every trip...they gave their YTD number for a certain area. I personally caught more than their tallies showed, and I know others who caught fish which would put their numbers way off.

My problem Jen is just this.............." why can't they just back off for a season, I don't think we had one week of piece this winter, without some bad news.
Why? can't they just realize they may have made ANOTHER miscalculation, and set the Allowable By-catch to low.
It is not like they haven't made mistakes before, it shouldn't hurt their pride that much.
The anually lowering of the lower cap will doom us all....and is completely illogical.

Everyone worked for a few years, the shrimpers have fish happy nets, the Pile is closed, the fisherman are educated, draggers are out of buisness and off the rocks, bottom fishing is done for reds.........great, why not just sit back and see how the plan goes together.??????????????

If you want I can sit down and show you areas on the old maps, that were fished years ago, I know the charters have these numbers. When they started regulating salmon, and told the chaters to find another fish , like halibut. In those next summers we went looking with a certain charter boat. Limit was 2 and 7 days a week. We would catch our 36 to 38 halibut and then go up on Hecta and just load up on big lings, we did the same on the true Harrisons and Nelson Isl. The jug boys know exactly where to go.
Apparently the Federal boys don't know.....Gee...they talk like they know a lot. Maybe just maybe they don't know poop.

I hope you don't think I am angry with OCEAN or anyone on this board. I feel your pain, and am glad you are their for us.

[O Tshawytcha]

This is a great thread!

I'm new to fishing out of Newport and would love to know the areas to avoid. Please post that information here if you have it.

Thanks guys!

GRIFF

[Bendman]

I've been keeping my eye out for this on Fox first...live...local. :grin: They must have not had a chance to check up on the board lately. :grin:

[Herring Problem]

By using the map provided, I halibut fish 33 miles out of Newport, By the map and the scale I am outside of all the red circles. That to me would indicate that I am not targeting any YE. This is where I find all of the other boats also. In this spot, the only fish I have had pulled in are halibut and (1) ling cod in Four years of halibut fishing. So am I to understand that ODFW is claiming we are catching YE everywhere we fish for Halibut!
So, does this post mean we are not going to have an open
halibut season on May 11th.

[Bendman]

So, does this post mean we are not going to have an open
halibut season on May 11th.

No.

[OceanBlue]

No.

But it could mean your halibut closes in August... or that the entire Rockpile will be closed next year... or there won't be a season in '08...

Data folks. We need data...

[Herring Problem]

Good then I'll be in Newport on the opener.

[Bendman]

We need good data, not the stuff they have rote down. I realy can't fathom that many were caught. If that's really the case than maybe there's a lot more than they say there is. with all the new regulations in place and the catch is going up??

[wak'm&stak'm]

This is really a 2 edge sword....we are helping to close our favorite fishing areas, even though a mile away there could be 5000 on some rock.
Also as even the first YE documents stated, "there is a decline in mature YE in the commercial nets, BUT we DO NOT KNOW what part habit, enivorment or behavior has to do with it.
I know 100%, just as everyone on this board....fish swim.
Herring migrate, as do sable, salmon, lingcod, halibut, greenies, sturgeon, smelt, shad, crabs,squid,...and so on.

HAS ANYONE CONSIDERED THIS ASPECT OF THE YE.?
I always targeted YE on the south edge of the canyon in the middle of the pile, when they were there it was quick limits. BUT sometimes they were not there at all. Where were they? I also learned the when we had clear warm water push in they either went of the bite or swam away, because you could not catch one to save your soul.
One day I was out by myself...I know it was August, because the same day I got warned but the OSP that crabbing closed...oops. Anyway...a few days later I was out with friends to make a killing and we didn't catch even one, but saw some tuna go jumping by. There are so many variables......

They are randomly throwing regulations out there with no knowledge to back it up. Whats really ironic is the only way they will get a handle on the migration, breeding habits and behavior of this species is to catch the damn things.
If we don't catch them they have NO data.

The tag and release program was a good idea. If we ever caught the same fish twice, after sinking them. They Feds could not say a damn thing....and the program already exists with sturgeon. It is not that difficult.

I would venture to guess it would take about a month for them to introduce the next endangered species, and here we go again.

[Flush Release]

They migrate up down and sideways along the reefs they live on. Personnally I think there is a whole lot more than they care or want to know about. Maybe the system of data collection needs to be challenged in court?

(example of faulty data collection)

All of SE Alaska was implemented with major restrictions on methods of take, aka no bait, barbless hooks ect ect for trout and steelhead based soley on Forest Service Cabin Logbook entries.

It happened to be the District Biostitute (Steve Hoffman) was not able for 10 years to get this change through the board of fish so he pulled a emergency order to do it and used the above questionable data to justify it.

Also would be nice to know who is funding the studies on Yelloweye's and Canaries, anyone know?
It's bad news that nearly all Rockfishing may be closed early based on what is known or should I say not known.

Looks like my boat will be a yard queen this season
Can't justify the cost for a few Sandabs.

[SouthCoastStu]

I don't fish out of Newport so I may be all wet, but why isn't there more discussion of gear restrictions? When the Ocean Coho became a problem they put a minimum on bait sizes, seemed to greatly reduce the number of undesirable fish hooked. Why not the same for YE's? My personal observation is that if you put shrimp flies (i.e. small hooks) on outside of 20 fathoms you stand a much better chance of hooking YE's and Canaries. Put the big ol' jigs on and catch mostly big Lings Same with halibut, put a 1/2 shad or better on and you don't get bothered as much by the smaller 'But's and undesireables

[Bendman]

They tend to hit the bigger baits and not the shrimp flies. some of the orange fish caught out there are huge. Maybe.. just maybe if one went to using whole shad it MIGHT cut out more orange fish. A large Canary can take down a half shad NO problem. I've caught halibut as small as 30" with whole shad.

[wak'm&stak'm]

They certainly picked the right species to promote their cause, didn't they.
We can argue this till we are blue in the face.

It is sad that a healthy family activity has to become so political. Those lawyers that are hired by the enviromental groups to hammer their agendas thru the government have done their jobs very well.
They want us off the ocean and they are doing exactly that. They put the rules and acts in place years before and now they are exersicing their muscle.
We are being led to the slaughter like a bunch of stupid sheep, and there is little we can do.
They have filed law suits because of the Feds failed to act in accordance with protection acts and data collection. Kind of makes you wonder who is controlling our own government agencies.

The only real answer is to fight back in the courts, we need to file our own arguements, The Right To Fish (is a good one, but no power in the west) again all political.
I believe they need to prove that we DO HAVE an endangered YE.

Personal...I would love to settle this whole issue with muskets in some farmers field. But, I think that won't happen very soon.

The truth is...we are screwed, this is entertainment for most of us, and a hobby that is limited by our incomes. Our conterparts have the bucks and the knowledge to stick it to us.

I wish there were some answers, some solutions, or a big farmers field.

[blubeast]

Wak - while I appreciate your passion and personally agree with many of the points your raise, I believe the intent of Ocean Blue's original post was to request the help of fellow Salty Dogs to identify WHERE YE and canaries are caught to hopefully avoid unnecessary closures of ocean areas due to the lack of useful data.

She's not debating who's right or how many YE still exist - rather that ODFW has requesed OCEAN's help in obtaining this info. They have already closed much of the Rockpile for most of the summer season without specific data... They CAN and WILL close other larger areas IF we cannot provide more spcific catch locations so they can target their closures to specifically where these fish reside.

ODFW is not making these rules - they are reacting to restrictions being forced upon them.

OCEAN has dedicated part of their website to assist in the collection of this catch location data. If you are willing to provide locations, GREAT. If not, ok... but please don't discourage others who may be able to assist by continuing the debate.

OCEAN is trying to collect this info so fellow salty fishers can avoid catching these fish, which may prematurely close the fishing for everyone.

[wak'm&stak'm]

You are right and I agree...but my points are still valid.

We fish relatively small areas for halibut...so where will the number come from? The number given WILL shut you off the chicken ranch and force you to find new halibut areas.
I believe there are halibut everywhere, and guess what....more red fish....and around and around we go.

I believe we can go find large concentrations of YE and provide areas they can close, but why? nobody is fishing there anyway.

I am under the understanding that this came from a law suite file agaianst the Feds. It is also the result of some of our charrter friends that are trying to nail our butts to the wall.
I don't believe we got all the information.....some charters said they NEVER caught YEs....so it is the sports that cause the problem. They are into survival mode trying to save themselves.
We can't fight against each othwer on this...commercial, charter, and sport better stick together or we are toast.

This is 100% political.....don't let them lull you into a sense of false security.

There is a lot more to this, than ..."please we need numbers to help you."

Skiens tagging thread is the right way to go. Very proactive and it has some give and take. It will also bring the Charters back into the circle.

Just remember every YE we report, is one fish closer to no season. If they reverse the Cap numbers to larger caps each year...then give them counts. But why give them something that will hurt us and get nothing in return.

What I really don't understand is why, (if this is so important to them) have they not published articles with the true explainations to the issue, and why, ask for help from a new formed Oregon based sportsman group, when the YE is a entire west coast problem.

Are they doing the same in Wash, or Calif.??? or just Newport and Tillamook?

I still think everyone better think this thru a little more, and give us the rest of the story.

[Gus Orviston]

Is there a way to tie a set up that is likely not to hook up on a YE, while still provide a probability to stay hooked up on Hali? Hook size, bait position,, I don't know enough about the voracity of the YE, but the size and power of bite, might allow for some sort of compromise in hook up ratio for butts, but allow for less YE coming up?

Been there done that? or is there merit?

gus

[Jimmy Carl Black]

Wak 'em I've got just one thing to say: "It's hard out there for a YE..."

Joking aside, your points are well taken. This sucks in alot of ways. They are taking an extreme stance in responce to an extreme circumstance brought on by extreme neglect of the resource for decades. I'm with you. They need to chill out and let the strict changes that have already been made have their effects. Sport fishermen are hardly going to push the YE over the brink to extinction. If that is the case, then this species is already toast.

If they want numbers, we might as well give them though right? What else is there to do?

Maybe we should try a strategy that has worked in the past to expose institutionalized absurdity. Sit-in at the Newport boat ramp.

[Bendman]

I think their data sucks! they haven't a stinking clue how many Canaries and Yellow eye are out there. If we give them numbers i don't think it's going to mean crap. There is no way to manage the ocean like that. You can catch those things almost anywhere. I don't think it takes much structure for those things to hold at all. I had no problem with them closing the area on the pile. I've always caught more rock fish the closer I got to the pile.

To me it seams that the catch rate is going up. My boat caught several of those things this year. More than in years past. I'm fishing in the same spots that I always have but I'm catching more orange fish. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out "hey maybe there is more of those fish out there than in years past". I would like to see into the mind of the people that is behind all this. "hey they are catching more and more of these fish they must be going extinct"

[Flush Release]

Not saying it is this way but Spotted Owl, Marbled Murlet, Northern Goshawk, Three Toe'd Titmouse come to mind

I'd like to see them set a few hundred live catch pots away from the trawl areas and see what numbers they come up with then. Be a good opportunity to tag a bunch of them also. Survival rate is nearly 100 percent if they bring the pots up slooooowly.

[Metal Manipulator]

During the 05 convention they said it took 3 to 4 days for the fish to be able to change the depth dramaticly. They also said that the survival rate of introducing them back to apropriat depth was nearly 100%. The link to the articale above had the same pictures that they showed at the convention. Repressurization works, they proved it so now lets practice it.
I don't know the ocean like Wak and they may be off on their data or or just plain have poor data. In which case we might have to sue to get them to admit their data is inconclusive, just like Wak said.

[OceanBlue]

Wetfly, I think you're misremembering the species that faired ~100% survival rate when released at depth. Early results suggest black rockfish caught in very shallow water survive very well and that yelloweye do fairly well (no where near 100%) & Canary don't do well at all.

Wak - There's no hidden agenda. ODFW didn't ask for OCEAN's help, I offered it since it's in line with a project we were already planning. It's what we do. The Marine Resources folks agreed that it might be helpful.

All - you're part of the problem or part of the solution. Denial & paranoia is only feeding the problem. Bottom line is that we're stuck with the numbers we've been given. You can fight all you want, but you're playing with fire if you think we can count on changing the feds minds short-term. I'm not saying that effort shouldn't be made, I'm just suggesting (strongly) that figure out how we live within the rules that have been laid before us.

Tagging, gear studies, stock assessments, release survivability - all of those need to be done and ARE being done. But the results and possible solutions are realistically a few years out. We need to do what we can RIGHT NOW to save our halibut fishing in '06, '07 & '08.

When halibut fishing closes down early, you'll have no one to blame but yourselves. I'll be the first to stand up and say "YOU could have prevented this and consciously decided not to"

Congratulations, folks. You're defining your own destiny.

Off the hood of the truck now.

A very disgusted and disappointed OB out!

[Flush Release]

OB Thanks for the effort. I am doing my part by not fishing this season much to my dismay

If I do get out I will fish a lot shallower that I am use to doing to avoid wasting any of the two Redfish mentioned.

Anyone know any good spots for Flounder?

[crabbait]

Man, the rightwing assessment of how we got to where we are and the overall goal just about makes me puke!

Some of you righties correct me where I am wrong, okay?

The problem started with unregulated and completely unethical commercial fishing with drag nets that ***** the bottom of the ocean (but it was legal so what the heck, right?). When the damage was finally realized, drag nets were outlawed but the damage was already done.

Next, we found out that the fish that we have been commercially killing like there was no end actually take a long time to grow to any size. Many of the fish that we creamed may have been decades old and may take decades to recover, if they can, right?

Now, we are facing severe restrictions on impacting the remaining fish because we really don't know how many there are. Until we can find a way to determine how many there are and whether or not they can recover the feds have decided that it would not be prudent to indiscriminately kill them. This seems reasonable to me. What have I missed?

The rightwingers are trying to sell that this is some kind of communist plot to get all sporties off the water when, in fact, the problem was the abuse of the ecosystem by commercial interests: (Hey, let's clearcut the ocean!)

Where did my little naive leftie head go wrong?

These are not dirty words:

Ecosystem
Environment
Scientist
Biologist
Conservation

Hey, if we had exercised an iota of common sense and stewardship we wouldn't be where we are now. If the court system is the only way that we can be reasonable with the planet then I am all for it!

[northriver1]

Speaking of puke I just read it. This is not a rightie vs leftie issue but rather one of what course of action does one take to protect our fish stocks. There is a difference of opinion among the fishermen/women on this board in how to accomplish this very important task.. Crabbait your post does not bring us any closer to accomplishing what is required to get the job done. As a matter of fact you move the cause back a few feet.

[crabbait]

Sorry, but I am not going to sit here and have a bunch of rightwingers blame the environmentalists for a problem created by unregulated overfishing and commercial practices that never should have been allowed in the first place.

Managing fish stocks to ensure their continued survival is not a communist plot.

[Threemuch]

Calm down, guys. Niether of you are about to puke, at least not because of anything you read on ifish.

It's not a partisian thing, the current situation did not happen overnight, and there were righties and lefties in control while it happened. It's pretty clear that when a thread disintigrates into a partisian blame game, little good can come of it.

[coconutdan]

Before we start slamming the commercial fleets remember NOAA was handing out low interest loans in the late 70's to utilize this resourse. They also had a fatal flaw in there stock surveys that if a fleet of boats fishes x number of days and catches the same amount of fish (CPUE) that the biomass must be stable. Most of us who fish sport/commercial realize that we constantly upgrade our boats and gear to remain competitive so that when the checkers at the dock view our catches and compare them against prior records they might not get the full picture. Conspiracy against the sport fleet .. hardly.. trying to discourage expansion? Probably.

[Flush Release]

[crabbait]

My point was that none of this has anything to do with some kind of plot to get sporties off the ocean.

I absolutely agree with OB that we can affect the outcome by supplying needed data. Let's do it without trying to make it a political agenda.

[corrirod]

Now that this is a righty/lefty thing, can we move this to Life in General?

All of a sudden cleaning my brother's rotten remains off of his stuff sounds more fun than reading this thread.

Not everyone likes to just rollover and be stepped on, some of us actually put up a fight Crabbait, epecially when we know WE were not, and are not the cause of the problem!

Questioning the reliability of the data that is being used to shut us down happens to be a constitutional right for both rightwingers and leftwingers the last time I checked, or maybe you'd like us to roll over and give that up too?

I will expect to NOT see you out at the Ranch, Pile, Bananna, or Halibut Hill this year for the halibut opener since they are known YE areas and you don't want to add to the problem right? Perhaps you've got some YE freindly halibut spots you'd share with all of us so we can avoid using the existing spots? :lurk:

[Bendman]

I really could have done without one of those sentences.

[Flush Release]

Do like I am doing by writing a letter to the NAS requesting that they look at the data and maybe come up with a better way to determine real numbers of YE and Canary's.

[Mark Mc]

[image][/image]

C'mon...let's play nice.

[skein]

More closures are coming. Vast, blanket closures

I guess OB's opening line got my attention. Brought to you by the same people who have been setting quotas and limits for (pick one) 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 years. The same folks who admit (honorably) that they have, in some cases, scant or questionable data.

As for righties and lefties, during those 50 years we have had nine terms of Republicans and six terms of Democrats, so tread softly, everyone has had a chance.

In the meantime, I will provide all the support I can to OCEAN/ODFW/NOAA/PFMC, but I will also become more proactive in my own search for the truth.

Here's some numbers, by the way. If you go there, I can almost guarantee you will catch an orange fish; probably every time you drop down.

44 35.082 - 124 24.279

The same holds true if you move west about a mile.

Skein

[flapbreaker]

Maybe we should all take up bass fishing (freshwater kind)?